Need advice/curriculum suggestions - writing and grammar

[dzingirl]

Here's the background: DD just turned 9 and is in 3rd grade. She's a smart girl, but not very academically-minded. She basically just wants to get school over with and go do something else. We have not used a writing curriculum yet and I haven't made her do much original writing. The reason behind this is that she struggles with the mechanics of writing. Her printing is still not great and looks more like a 1st or 2nd grader's probably. She doesn't like writing and tries to avoid it when she can. I have been making her write more this year just with the phrases and sentences in AAS and words and sentences on her grammar worksheets. She copies history definitions sometimes too.

 

We did try WWE1 some earlier this year, but it seemed too easy, too boring, and like it wasn't really going to help her be able to compose a paragraph on her own. I had also bought CAP W&R Fable, but was saving it because I thought we needed to complete WWE1 & WWE2 first. I looked at it again and thought she might be able to do it so we've been working on lesson 1 this week. It's going ok, but today she was supposed to rewrite The Lion and the Mouse with the mouse as the stronger character and a smaller creature helping him. Even after I told her that she wasn't supposed to copy the original story and just switch lion to mouse and mouse to the other animal, that's basically what she did. So....will that get better if I just keep going with this program? Should I try WWE2 instead? Is there a big difference between WWE1 and WWE2? Is there something else I should try instead - IEW or EIW? I also have the book "The Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever" or something like that which looks good but doesn't have the level of explicit hand-holding instructions I prefer in curriculum.

 

And then there's grammar...we used FLL1 some in 1st and 2nd I think. My daughter and I both wanted to stab a fork in our eye with all the repetition about the definition of a noun. We stopped around lesson 80 I think and started using Evan-Moor Language Fundamentals Grade 2. We completed that book and started the Grade 3 workbook. But here's the thing....DD doesn't seem to be retaining much. We did the section on verbs then came to the review quiz and she says "What's a verb?" (Insert head smashing into brick wall emoticon here.) There just doesn't see to be enough teaching/explanation. I will add that grammar isn't my strong suit so I could use something with more teaching as well. Any suggestions? I looked at samples of CLE grammar and thought that looked pretty good. MCT grammar seemed to have more explanation as well.

 

We are using AAS for spelling and we're behind with it, just finishing up level 2 and going straight into level 3. We are not behind because it's hard for her but because we weren't being consistent in doing it. We've been doing a lesson in 2-3 days and doing 2 lessons/week lately to try to get caught up/get to a level where she struggles with the spelling. Right now the spelling words seem to be ones she already knows for the most part, but I go over the rules anyhow and basically use it for handwriting practice.

 

Any suggetions on writing and grammar would be very much appreciated. Thanks for reading.

[ALB]

Well, we use and like Classical Composition, but it's fairly similar to W&R so I don't know if that would work any better for you.  It has DVD instructions as an option, but we don't use them.  I did a review here.

 

I have heard good things about CLE English but haven't used it myself.  We have had a lot of success with Rod & Staff.  It has thorough review, but not the same kind of memorization as FLL.  It is written to the student and is really easy to understand.  We have done some of the exercises orally since there is a lot of written work.  It also has writing lessons scheduled here and there, which you can skip if you are doing a separate writing program.  The lessons will help with things like structuring a paragraph, so you might like that.

[Insertcreativenamehere]

We are using CLE Language Arts for a 4th grader and a 2nd grader and are pleased with it. It's very thorough when it comes to grammar, but I do supplement writing with WWE (for the 2nd grader) and W&R (for the 4th grader.)

[ByGrace3]

For writing Treasured Conversations.

 

We love CAP as well and are planning to go back to it when we finish TC.

[Clear Creek]

With a child that was still struggling with the mechanics of writing, I would just not do composition this year and pick W&R back up in 4th grade. I would stick with copywork and focus on composing good sentences this year.

 

Rod & Staff grammar can be completed almost completely orally; I would assign select exercises to be written if they work on composing sentences.

[Steven]

Your daughter sounds a lot like mine. She was so resistant to the physical act of writing. We started CAP W&R in 4th grade and took from November to June to get through it. Book two went faster (first semester of 5th grade), and we are now on to book 3. 

 

Regarding methodology of W&R: I do not just turn my daughter loose on the assignments. Rather I actively brain storm with her and write down ideas on the white board. Then together we get those ideas into an outline. Then she writes her story. So, for example, in re-writing the story of the Lion and the Mouse, and asked her what animals might be afraid of a mouse? What kind of trap or predicament might a mouse need to be rescued from? What could those animals that are afraid of mice do to help a mouse in this predicament? It can take a fair amount of guidance. You might need to ask concrete questions: Would an ant be afraid of a mouse? How could an ant do to annoy a mouse at the start of the story? (Crawl on his nose by accident.) What danger could the mouse get into (Get caught by a cat.) How could the ant help the mouse? (Call other ants to swarm over the cat, maybe biting the cat, thus giving the mouse a chance to escape.) Write down all the ideas, so she can choose the ones she finds most interesting. 

 

When we did summaries of the CAP stories, I had her cross out all the unnecessary words and then just copy what was left, making very minor adjustments to keep the story flowing. Again, if she was having problems, I would ask specific questions: Do we really need to know that the lion is golden yellow or can we cut that out? I would point out to her that the more she cut out, the less she would have to write when she recopied the summary. 

 

We do Sequential Spelling, which I find easy to use, and it forces my daughter to write 25 words a day. 

 

For grammar, we use KISS Grammar, which has very little writing--mainly underlining, circling, etc. So it is perfect for the child who has problems with writing. There is no memorizing of definitions.  Using KISS my daughter quickly learned to identify adjectives, nouns, verbs, subjections, direct objects, etc, by seeing and identifying them in real sentences. The exercises are meant to be done quickly (10 to 15 minutes), but it usually takes my daughter longer. So I try to keep the lessons short by spreading each exercise over 2 or even 3 days.

[My3girls]

We used WWE2 and then W&R:Fables.  I think WWE2 really helped them to be able to create a good sentence, pick out a main idea, and practice the actual act of writing. I would recommend you start there and then try W&R next year. 

[Jess4879]

You mentioned that she struggles with the mechanics of writing.  Does she form her letters correctly?  I'd start there and make sure she's forming her letters correctly, via copy work.  Start with short sentences and move up as she's ready.  You could also try some Bravewriter ideas.  They are fun and kids seem to forget that they are actually writing.  You could just start by trying some of her daily tips (free!) and go from there.  I can send you a list of some of our favorites if you're interested. :) 

 

At this point, I wouldn't start with a formal grammar, but that's just me.  Work on punctuation and such through copy work and call it good. 

[Five More Minutes]

I found WWE2 to be the best in the series for us. It does such a good job of building students' skills in identifying main ideas, summarizing, and creating complete sentences. I like WWE in general because it is easy on kids who don't have the mechanics down yet and gives them lots of practice for that. I can see how it seems it will never get you to writing a paragraph, but I think it's working on these more fundamental skills that can get overlooked.

 

For W&R, like Steven, I would expect to give a lot of support for each lesson. We discuss the writing question and brainstorm ideas. I ask questions to make sure she understands the assignment. If I felt she were unsure, I would sit with her or nearby for the entire assignment. 

 

As for grammar, I agree with Jess and would probably just leave doing a formal grammar program for now. 

 

 

[alisoncooks]

:lurk5:

 

Listening in because the OP sounds much like my 3rd grader (nearly 9yo).  She was a struggling reader so I never pushed writing (because, well, why write when you can't read it!)  But now she is VERY resistant to even putting pencil to paper; I can barely get her to squeak out a 3+ word sentence during school.   :sad:

[KathyBC]

:lurk5:

 

Listening in because the OP sounds much like my 3rd grader (nearly 9yo).  She was a struggling reader so I never pushed writing (because, well, why write when you can't read it!)  But now she is VERY resistant to even putting pencil to paper; I can barely get her to squeak out a 3+ word sentence during school.   :sad:

Seconding Brave Writer. Her freewrite technique can *really* help break through that reluctance. It combines well with copywork for mechanics (WWE is nice with everything laid out). It makes it easier to separate the physical act of writing and the thinking/self-expression aspects.

[Holly]

My writing phobic daughter is working through Wordsmith Apprentice.  There is a bit of grammar included as well as actual writing.  I like that it isn't creative writing, but focuses on newspaper writing.  I think she's gotten stuck with trying to make everything too creative and it gives her "writer's block".  This takes that out of the equation because she's focusing on the 5 W's.   WA is listed for grades 4-6th (my DD is in 7th).  I agree with PP and would just focus on copywork and simple sentences for the rest of the year.  

 

One thing that's helped with paragraph writing has been using graphic organizers.  That way the bulk of what she's saying is already on paper and just needs to be organized.  

 

[Homeschoolmom3]

We used Shurley early on works well but time consuming. Since then have switched to Rod and Staff and really like it for grammar. Like above post said alot can be done orally.

 

Writing wouldn't stress since still young. Might try narration and telling back to you what she reads instead of coming up with things on her own and then try writing it. We did IEW with success starting in 4th.

[dzingirl]

Thank you for all the suggestions/input so far. For those who use/say to just use copy work, where do you get it from? Do you just make sentences up yourself or do you have a book of it?

 

Also, what kind of paper did/does your child use in third grade? The writing lines provided in the WWE1 workbook were way too big for her. She uses a Mead Primary Composition book for spelling and history definitions. It says grades K-2 on it and the lines in it are really a bit big for her too. The writing lines are 0.5" high. However, she still needs (or thinks she needs) the mid-line. I found another thread about 3/8" paper so I'm going to try to find some of that. But are most kids just writing on regular wide ruled paper in third grade? I feel like we're so behind. :-(

[Homeschoolmom3]

Copywork for us we used the books they were reading at the time.

[Five More Minutes]

Thank you for all the suggestions/input so far. For those who use/say to just use copy work, where do you get it from? Do you just make sentences up yourself or do you have a book of it?

 

Also, what kind of paper did/does your child use in third grade? The writing lines provided in the WWE1 workbook were way too big for her. She uses a Mead Primary Composition book for spelling and history definitions. It says grades K-2 on it and the lines in it are really a bit big for her too. The writing lines are 0.5" high. However, she still needs (or thinks she needs) the mid-line. I found another thread about 3/8" paper so I'm going to try to find some of that. But are most kids just writing on regular wide ruled paper in third grade? I feel like we're so behind. :-(

 

When I had my dd doing extra copywork outside of WWE, I just used whatever book we happened to be reading to supply the original. I also tried some Bravewriter units which had copywork in them, if I recall correctly.

 

Your complaint about the line spacing in WWE is a familiar one. It drove me nuts -- waaaaay too big for my kids. I had to have them work on paper with different line spacing suited to their levels.

 

If your student is still using the mid-line in Gr. 3, no biggie. Mine has sort of transitioned away from it through the year, mostly because I ran out of the specialty paper and was too lazy to print more! If the mid-line helps your daughter with her writing, then I think it's great to keep giving her that support.

[ByGrace3]

Last year we used BraveWriter The Arrow for copywork and thoroughly enjoyed it. We did just copywork and modified (French) dictation with dd last year. She struggled with WWE2 --it produced tears. BW copywork/dictation helped us bridge the gap to using CAP.

[OneStepAtATime]

For copywork with a child that struggles with the mechanics you might look at the StartWrite software from Memoria Press.  You can type up and print any sentence you like and make it whatever size she needs.  Start with a larger font.  Have her trace the material first, then copy it on the line below.  You can create as many extra copy lines as you want.  Have her copy things she has interest in or is studying in other subjects.  Work in very short stints on the letter formation and sit with her.  Make sure she is holding her pencil correctly, not pressing too hard or too softly, and give her lots of encouragement.  

 

In fact, you might want to go back to individual letter practice and start from there.  Have her trace the letter a few times, then write the letter freehand.  Go back and have her look at the example letter and circle the letter she wrote that is closest to the example.  Get her focusing on what is right or close with her letter formation.  It is less demoralizing and can net faster improvement.

 

For kids who struggle with the mechanics, writing can be a nightmare.  There is a lot that goes into the physical act of writing and if any one of those subsystems (motor planning, muscle strength, neurological triggers, etc.) are off, it can be exceedingly challenging, even painful.

 

And in the meantime, while she works on the mechanics, she can work on actually creating writing projects separately.  Scribe for her.  Brain storm together, work on a dry erase board together, then let her dictate her ideas, you write them down, then you both work through it together to polish.

 

You might also look at software like Kidsipration/Inspiration to help with organizing ideas for output.  There are also software programs for math if she is having trouble writing out her math problems.

 

If mechanics continues to be an issue you might look at getting an evaluation through an Occupational Therapist.  Seek out information on dysgraphia.  

 

And she may end up needing something more systematic and structured for formal writing instruction, like IEW with Fix-It Grammar or CLE.

 

Good luck and best wishes.

[My3girls]

We just used the book we were reading for copywork.  I used WWE to help me figure out which sentences supported the current concept being taught.  We used 3rd grade writing paper with the red dotted line.

[Leah_S]

I'm just cutting and pasting what I wrote on an older thread as it's applicable here (I have same advice).

 

I'd use Saxon Grammar and Writing!!      

 

Saxon Grammar and Writing (formerly called Hake Grammar and Writing) is fabulous.  Easy to use and very thorough.  You could start it in Grade 4 or 5.   Check out the great reviews by users.   You won't regret it!   

 

NOTE:   A courteous word for the non-tech saavy folks like myself given in an effort to save you from having to type out the links below that aren't underlined.

Some of these links below wouldn't underline thus you can't simply click on them to be taken to those reviews.    For the ones that aren't underlined, here's how you paste the link into the browser box:  

1.  Simply take your cursor and highlight the entire link

2.  While it's highlighted push Ctrl button AND the letter C at the same time; this COPIES it.  

3.  Next, take your cursor and click in the address box and paste it in.   How do you paste?   Once in the browser box, hold down the Ctrl button and the letter P at the

       same time.   This pastes it.

4.  Once you see the link in the box, press enter and it'll take you there. :-)  

 

LINKS TO THE REVIEWS ABOUT SAXON GRAMMAR AND WRITING:

 

www.cathyduffyreviews.com/grammar-composition/saxon-grammar-writing.htm

 

www.rainbowresource.com/product/sku/021990

 

www.amazon.com/Saxon-Grammar-Writing-Complete-Homeschool/dp/1419098365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425177777&sr=8-1&keywords=saxon+grammar

 

http://www.theoldsch...eviews/3685.php

 

www.homeschoolreviews.com/reviews/curriculum/reviews.aspx?id=534

 

http://www.christian...98369/pd/998369

 

http://vahomeschoole.../saxon-grammar/

 

 

There are two editions of Saxon Grammar and Writing.

In the 1st editions, there is no course for Grade 4 thus they offer the course for Grades 5 to 8.    

In the 2nd edition, they add the course for Grade 4 and thus offer Grades 4-8.  

The 2nd edition of the program has been revised and updated to meet Common Core Standards for Language and Writing which, according to the publisher, means they added additional writing assignments.

 

I suggest using all three books but here are the prices from www.rainbowresource.com (as of Spring 2015) of the kit and the individual components making up the kit:

Each Homeschool Kit (which includes the textbook, workbook and teacher packet):  $57.95 

Each Textbook   $30.95

Each Workbook  $11.25

Each Teacher Packet   $20.95

 

Rainbow Resource (www.rainbowresource.com) offers both editions of each level (but only offers the 2nd edition of Grade 4 as there isn't a 1st edition of Grade 4).

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Have you looked at Junior Analytical Grammar?  I have no experience with it, but used Analytical Grammar years ago.  Here is my review:

 

Analytical Grammar website is www.analyticalgrammar.com.  The videos at the website do a great job of explaining the program.  AG breaks it up into 3 seasons/years.  Season 1 has 10 weeks of daily grammar work, then review 1x every 2 weeks.  Season 2 has 7 weeks of daily grammar work, then review 1x every month.  Season 3 has 17 weeks of daily grammar work and then you are done.  It can be completed in 1 or 2 years as well.  We completed the program as they suggest in 6 ^th-7^th-8^th grade with review between the seasons.

 

Season 1 - basic grammar (parts of speech, parts of a sentence, basics of diagramming)

Season 2 - advanced grammar (verbal phrases and subordinate clauses) (this completes the study of grammar)

Season 3 - application of grammatical knowledge to the rules of capitalization, punctuation and usage

 

Pros:

• Clear and concise
• Pick up and go (little to no preparation required from mom)
• Teach lesson on first day of week and student can work on their own for rest of week.  Only checking/correcting required from mom.
• Each lesson in Season 1 has a theme (American flag, humorous Johnny Carson story, women & math, Mexican-Americans, Martin Luther King Jr., Jewish Americans, fairy tales, etc.) which makes the lessons more interesting.
• Built-in review – new concepts are learned, but old concepts (ex. adverbs, conjunctions, gerund phrases) are never dropped.
• Sentences are much more complex than Shurley grammar.
• The review paragraphs are from real books (in other words, the sentences are not made up especially for grammar parsing).
• Novelty of getting a letter grade on test
• Comfort of letter grade for perfectionist mom (ds is missing some but still getting As/Bs)
• Student book turns into a reference manual when you remove student exercises.
• Erin Karl (author’s daughter) is very responsive to questions on AG yahoo group.

 

Cons:

• While I thought Season 1 was perfect, we could have used 2x as much practice/review for Season 2 (because it’s difficult) and 3 (because it’s detailed).
• Some say it’s expensive.  I spent $120 but will use it over 3 years.  It has been worth every penny in the TIME that it has saved me.

 

Disclaimer:  I have a master’s degree in Operations Research, which is concerned with all things efficiency.  Part of the reason I love AG is that it is the most efficient use of my time and my child’s time.  This leaves time for other wonderful things like math, history, music, and sports!  I imagine that if you are a good teacher, and you teach grammar year after year after year, you learn to make your lessons more and more efficient.  That must be with the author, Robin Finley, did.