Moving away from workbooks: Henle after First Form?

[Critterfixer]

For the past two or three years, I have used workbooks whenever I had curriculum that came with them. For example, Latin, math, and this year, grammar. We have not used them for history, science, spelling or writing. 

I am most interested in moving to written exercises for Latin. I've noticed that the physical act of writing the recitation from First Form, writing the full grammar question and answer, making our own tables for declensions has improved retention so much. However, I see that Second Form Latin comes with workbooks, so the exercises are meant to be completed there? I like the pace with First Form and always intended to go through the series, but I'm wondering if it would be better to move to Henle if only to avoid workbooks and start working on writing the exercises by hand and having them stick instead of being forgotten.

I am already planning on doing this with Grammar next year. I will stay with workbooks for most of math, but will probably insist on supplemental work being done by writing out the problems on graph paper and solving them there.

 

Anybody noticed this or wanted to do this? Thoughts on what to do about Latin for next year? The boys will be in sixth grade, they are strong writers, and their handwriting is legible, so it isn't hard for any of us to check exercises. I do worry a little bit about the tendency to sloppiness with a lot of excessive writing.

 

ETA: I could, of course, simply insist that they copy the exercises from the workbook for Second Form. It's just might be a bit of a tough sell, and I sort of hate to buy a workbook when I'm just going to copy it by hand..

[The Governess]

I am in the middle of First Form with a fifth grader as well. I love it! I love all of the drills in the workbook. Henle includes more writing but it focuses almost exclusively on sentence translation; any drill of paradigms, vocabulary, grammar etc. would need to be added separately. What I like about First Form is that completing the workbook pages gives you a lot of practice with these things. You can add more if needed, but you would have to do this with Henle as well.

 

My plan is to get through Second Form in sixth grade and Third and Fourth Forms in seventh, but I will also be starting Henle I along with Second Form to add in more translation practice (maybe one exercise a day) with the hopes of getting through enough of Henle I in sixth and seventh so that we can jump right into Henle II in eighth. If I'm remembering correctly, Fourth Form uses Henle to add additional translation already; I just want to start this process a bit earlier.

[Critterfixer]

 

 

I am in the middle of First Form with a fifth grader as well. I love it! I love all of the drills in the workbook. Henle includes more writing but it focuses almost exclusively on sentence translation; any drill of paradigms, vocabulary, grammar etc. would need to be added separately. What I like about First Form is that completing the workbook pages gives you a lot of practice with these things. You can add more if needed, but you would have to do this with Henle as well.

That was what I was afraid of. I do like the way the workbooks are set up in First Form, and I assume Second Form would continue with that format. What I don't like about the workbook is the "workbook" aspect of it. It's just too easy to fill in the blanks and go on without really thinking. I see this as a real problem for one of my boys, but the other would be helped by transcribing the exercise and doing it instead of just filling in blanks. 

[petepie2]

Having almost completed Second Form, I know the workbook isn't just a fill-in-the-blank. The exercises are to write out vocabulary words in dictionary form, conjugate/decline, and translate (both words and sentences). There is usually only one page per week of fill-in-the-blank that deals with general grammar questions, and usually the derivative section is fill-in-the-blank. The workbook is all about writing things out.

[Critterfixer]

I hope it is less fill-in-the-blank than First Form. But that sounds pretty close to what we are doing now. I have not seen the kind of retention I want to see.

 

ETA: I like First Form Latin, don't get me wrong. But I think I'm going to have to change the way we do those workbooks to get the kind of understanding I want to see. It is just too easy for my boys to turn off their brains and answer those questions. And they will do that!

 

 

[showelott]

I had the same issues with FFL - I love the program and the memorizing and the workbook - but I don't think there is enough reading or practice writing.

 

Have you seen Latin Book One? It has a lot of reading (which was missing from FFL) and additional writing practice - both from Latin to English and English to Latin.  I bought a used copy for $10. 

 

I missed having a workbook - where all your work is in one place and where it's easy to check your answers, instead of tracking to track down random pieces of loose paper - so I created my own workbook with an answer key. 

[Critterfixer]

I certainly don't want more loose paper running around! I'm sitting here looking at a pile that I simply must deal with tonight and dreading it. But I had in mind the same sort of thing I've been doing over the last year. Instead of buying an extra workbook for myself, I simply wrote out the exercises on my own in a spiral notebook. It's neat, contained and has really helped me master the Latin this year. Because I am writing the exercises, I am writing the questions along with the answers. That, more than anything else, has helped me this year. 

So what I really have against the workbook is that the question, once read, is forgotten. However, if I write the question down, I am forced to consider it for a longer period of time, the entire time I'm writing it. Then the answer is strongly paired with that question in my mind. That's why I want to do away with fill-in-the-blank work. 

I have the strangest feeling I've thought about this before and didn't do anything about it... :laugh:

[showelott]

I hear you that repetition  and lots of writing and translating is key!  I've also been listening to Cornelia (a free beginning latin reader) and transcribing that. And pulling out my previous english transcriptions of earlier readings in LBO and transcribing back into Latin. It's finally starting to feel a little more automatic to see a direct object and think "accusative case"

[Critterfixer]

 

I hear you that repetition  and lots of writing and translating is key!  I've also been listening to Cornelia (a free beginning latin reader) and transcribing that. And pulling out my previous english transcriptions of earlier readings in LBO and transcribing back into Latin. It's finally starting to feel a little more automatic to see a direct object and think "accusative case"

 

That's what I'm aiming for eventually. For now I'd just settle for an automatic recall for basic grammar rules. :glare:

[showelott]

My daughter is struggling with reading and complains that she is the only one in the family struggling (she's an only).

 

So now I sit next to her while I do my latin homework and she watches me look up "propinqua" the the @%^*! time. And watches me correct all my translation errors with my red marker - it's totally cut down on the complaining! 

 

 

[Critterfixer]

No real complaining. However, the translation is getting to be difficult for one of my boys, the one who struggles with recalling the grammar rules and his vocabulary. He can manage currently, but just. I'd like to see him retaining more from the lessons, so that review is just that, review, and not an attempt to re-learn what he failed to learn the first time around.

[RootAnn]

I can do the exercises in FFL and completely forget the vocab & grammar forms within a short time, so I get where you are going with this. And yes, SFL is pretty much the same format as FFL.

 

DD#1 has found that some time with flashcards (which really means Quizlet) helps with her retaining the vocab. It doesn't necessarily help with the grammar forms -- those really need to be chanted, written, and chanted some more. I know you're doing that already. If DD does quizlet and/or flashcards or enough cumulative review, she does very well and doesn't have to review as much for the unit tests. 

 

The FFL final is a killer.  :gnorsi:

[mom2att]

My hesitation with your Henle instead of SFL plan would be that Henle is not as teacher friendly. I have one currently in SFL, and years ago before the Forms series was published my oldest did a portion of Henle I with the MP guides (assuming they still publish these?). The reason she only did part of Henle was that I was a Latin newbie as well and was just going along in the books with her. If either of us had a question, often neither the book nor the guide had the answer. I finally moved her to Latin with our state's virtual school where she did well. Now if you have a Latin background obviously this won't be a problem for you, but I just thought I'd throw that out there for those who do not.

 

With the Forms series, you actually have a teacher book, and as well as a dvd teacher if necessary. The exercises and practice material are already laid out for you, even exams and quizzes--I love how it is all right there. If its an issue of not retaining because it's just fill in the blank, buy only one workbook that is not to be written in and have your students transcribe into a notebook, as they would with a math text, for example. Write out the vocab every day, and maybe do forms practice with more than just chants--write them down as well. There are ways to add more to your current Latin without having to move to a new curricula.

 

But can I just say that I am absolutely flabbergasted that with two 11-year-old boys you are looking for MORE writing than FFL offers. I let my youngest drop Latin after completing FF because the writing was so much, and I generally end up having my older do more than half of the lesson in SFL orally, with me transcribing for him. In no way would more writing have been an even remote possibility. My older boy does have processing and memory issues, so there's that, but all the same I think it amazing that yours are willing (or at least needing) to write more. All kids are different--do what works for you!

[Omma]

I am using Henle Latin after starting with First Form Latin over the summer.  We had to switch because of being in the Challenge program at Classical Conversations.  I used Henle over the Fall and Winter and then went back to First Form the following summer.  The 2nd year we started back at the beginning of Henle again and we are now up to the subjunctive mood.  I suppose I am getting the best of both worlds because what I am now doing is continuing in Henle but going to the Second Form or even Third Form Latin to find the chapter that matches what I am doing in Henle.  I watch the DVD lesson that is appropriate and I study the textbook pages that go with that lesson (in whatever Form Latin I am in).  Then I go and read what Henle has to say and do the exercises and study the blue Grammar book that goes along with Henle.  While I prefer the grammar presentation done by Memoria Press, I am enjoying doing the exercises in Henle, too.  I think that Memoria Press does a fabulous job with their two-page spread of a lesson; it is so clear and visually very appealing.  But I have not had the opportunity to actually do the workbook pages in Second or Third Form, so I cannot speak to that part.  However, what I have learned with the Classical Conversations approach is that it is quite appropriate to go through Henle as far as you can get one year, and then go back to the beginning of Henle (or I suppose whatever Latin you are doing) and start all over again and work at perhaps double the pace the 2nd time through, enjoying the accomplishment of what you have already learned and easing the pain of the newer material that you are struggling with.  :laugh:

 

But my dc are completing 7th and 9th grade now (the 7th is going through Henle for the 1st time and the 9th grader for the 2nd run-through).  With your boys going into 6th grade, I think I would just stick with the tried and true workbook pages of the First, Second, & Third Form Latin Series at whatever point you are at and just keep on going with that for at least one more year, especially since their handwriting is strong.  One of my dc loves to write by hand and the other hates it like the plague, but loves to put all his new Latin vocabulary terms on Quizlet and study them that way.  But either way, I agree that the chanting aloud, such as what you hear on the First Form Latin DVDs, is really valuable for memorizing.  Plus we also got the Memoria Press Wall Charts and hung them up.  Whatever works, we do it!  :lol:  

[Critterfixer]

 

With the Forms series, you actually have a teacher book, and as well as a dvd teacher if necessary. The exercises and practice material are already laid out for you, even exams and quizzes--I love how it is all right there. If its an issue of not retaining because it's just fill in the blank, buy only one workbook that is not to be written in and have your students transcribe into a notebook, as they would with a math text, for example. Write out the vocab every day, and maybe do forms practice with more than just chants--write them down as well. There are ways to add more to your current Latin without having to move to a new curricula.

 

This is probably what I will end up doing. (It's what I have done all year for myself; I was too cheap to buy myself an extra workbook. :blushing: )

I don't want to add more writing that is just busy work. But I may spend the remainder of this year deciding what should be written to help with learning. We have our charts on the wall (homemade with special animals on them to make them easy to identify), we have daily review of all lessons in the unit on index cards, and I do oral work with the grammar questions and vocabulary. It's just got to stick a little better, or we will be bombing that final. I don't even need to look ahead to figure out it will be a real hill to climb at the end!

 

[Critterfixer]

 

But can I just say that I am absolutely flabbergasted that with two 11-year-old boys you are looking for MORE writing than FFL offers. I let my youngest drop Latin after completing FF because the writing was so much, and I generally end up having my older do more than half of the lesson in SFL orally, with me transcribing for him. In no way would more writing have been an even remote possibility. My older boy does have processing and memory issues, so there's that, but all the same I think it amazing that yours are willing (or at least needing) to write more. All kids are different--do what works for you!

 

I will have to pick and choose. My real issue is with the fill-in questions, and making sure that the questions and answers are dealt with together. That may mean that I will have to decide ahead of time which questions are the most important for memory and come up a way to answer those over the week instead of on a single day. It might even be as simple as changing up how we do exercises in the workbook to balance out the lesson study over several days. I've got the rest of First Form to play around and see what might work.