How do protect homeschooling children from educational neglect? Can we discuss with some parameters?

[Lisa R.]

Can we have a discussion on ideas or ways the homeschooled children can be protected from educational neglect? This could include state laws, non-profit organizations, or self-policing within the movement. 

 

I really feel that homeschoolers will lose some of the liberty they have today if this issue isn't addressed somehow. Ultimately, they could lost the privilege to homeschool altogether. More and more stories come out about children that have been ill-served by homeschooling, particularly as there are now more adults that were homeschooled growing up and are telling their (often sad) stories.

 

Yes, we acknowledge there are many, many homeschool success stories. It is a wonderful form of education for many families, including ours.

 

 

First, How should educational neglect be defined?

 

In order for this not to spin out of hand, can we follow the parameters below?

 

--Can we have this be a broad discussion and not focus on specific children you know or exceptional situations that wouldn't broadly apply? 

 

--Please don't use this discussion to bring up other areas of neglect in the home. While these may or may not be paired with educational neglect, this should probably have a different thread.

 

--Please don't use this discussion to bash public schools. i.e. "Until public schools raise their standard and keep kids from fall between the cracks, people need to lay off homeschoolers." So, even if people educated in other ways have been failed, it is not relevant for this discussion. 

 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think we can police other families. I don't think it can or should be our job, as it's not even possible.

 

Here's what I think we can do, as individual homeschooling parents, to help:

 

1. Be the change we want to see. Obey the laws of the land. Don't slack and then brag about it, trailing logical fallacies about "still better than ps" everywhere we go. (This is NOT the same as truthfully explaining the benefits of flexibility in homeschooling! That's a good thing!)

 

2. Let our kids out into the world, not as missionaries or ambassadors but just being who they are, because homeschooled kids are neat people. Well-raised children are a million times more effective as testimonials than any words we can type about ourselves online.

 

3. Challenge the stereotypes, whether from within or outside the homeschooling community. Yes, they go to college. No, we're not all religious. Yes, they have appropriate health care. No, I'm not trying to have 5000 children in order to bring about a Christian society so Jesus can return, I'm just teaching my kids at home.

 

4. Don't smile and nod when homeschooling acquaintances tell us that they don't want to take their ill children to a physician, they are lying to the portfolio supervisor in their state, their kitchen is full of maggots and they haven't taught math in two years. Express appropriate concern. Keep a standard for God's sake. For the children's sake.

 

5. Stop following homeschool gurus. Ask yourself why somebody wants to be famous and known for being Bestest Homeschooler Ever. Find some cynicism about the veracity of their blogs and anecdotes, and make friends IRL where real accountability and honesty are inherent in relationships.

 

That's all I've got for now. I think if I'm doing my job well, and reacting appropriately to what others say and do, my conscience is satisfied.

 

I agree that the evil day is coming, brought on by abusive fake homeschoolers but also by the political and ideological climate in the nation right now. This era of supposed freedom is ending. (Which era is a little ostrich-y, if we're being realistic; some of our reasons why we should have xyz freedoms are a perspective of privilege -- others who have differing viewpoints are looking at different situations so their laws and solutions aren't even about us. We'll be collateral damage.) I give us five years at the most.

[IsabelC]

Only going to add one or two quick  thoughts as I'm getting kids up for breakfast.

 

It's a tough question. 

I don't have the answer, but I have a fairly strong suspicion that the answer does not lie in higher levels of government supervision (except in those states where the current level of oversight is none or almost none, where I would certainly advocate for introducing properly set up regulatory bodies), and especially not in compulsory standards, curricula or testing.

 

Perhaps it is cultural change that is really needed? Clearly this is difficult to instigate, but maybe a broad public education/awareness campaign of some kind could be a start?

 

1. People need to have a good handle on when it is or isn't their business what happens to other people's children. We can all probably tell stories of people who have inappropriately interfered, however I still believe that on the whole, people are generally too reluctant to get involved. There are so many cases of children (and sometimes women) living in horrific situations, and nobody around noticed, or else they suspected but decided it was none of their business. I'd like to see an attitude of "take an interest in people around you, and if in doubt, step up to protect the children". I hate people poking their noses into my business as much as the next person, but kids' welfare is more important than my transient feelings.

 

2. People need to know a little more about homeschooling and unschooling, which would enable them to make better calls relating to number 1 above. No, I would never expect society at large to know as much about it as I do, but I would love to get past those ignorant stereotypes; to have a basic awareness that home education is legal and viable, that kids of all academic capabilities can be homeschooled, and that there are many diverse ways of going about it. (Of course, conversely, we should resist the temptation to be dismissive or contemptuous of families who use schools, because appearing to set ourselves up as better than the masses feeds into the harmful stereotypes.)

 

3. Maybe this one is even more of a challenge, but an attitude change would also go a long way. We need to eliminate the idea perpetuated by the media that there are "wars" going on about all aspects of parenting. The focus should ideally not be on "you are wrong, my way is right", but instead "I care about these children. I also care about the parents. How can I support and encourage them to do the best they can for their kids' education?" To use an unfashionable word, I think we should be more humble about our approach (and yes, I believe it's possible to be humble and assertive). If people that if people could have - and express - this kind of attitude, and have the basic knowledge regarding home education, then it wouldn't be so offensive if they sometimes inadvertently overstepped the boundaries. Most people don't enjoy being attacked over the choices they have made for their kids, but most of us would feel good to know that we live in a community which respects our rights and at the same time is willing to take action to protect our kids.

 

[Heatherwith4]

I think the best thing any of us can do is educate our children to the best of our ability, and if we find that we aren't up to the task, use other resources available to us. This could even include public school. :O

[MrsWeasley]

I question whether educational neglect is a helpful term. Many parents come to homeschooling in hopes to help children who languish in public schools: as much as advocates might say otherwise, homeschooling often isn't a magic bullet. Given that homeschooling self-selects somewhat for kids struggling, I hesistate to make blanket statements for what constitutes educational neglect. In the absence of other forms of neglect or abuse, I trust that most parents who make the time and resource sacrifice of homeschooling can make better choices for their kids than outsiders. I think isolation and distrust of homeschooling parents hinders their ability to make good choices the most, and as such, I think offering more support to homeschooling families would help mitigate some of these problems. Policing home educators reinforces that mistrust and isolation.

[FaithManor]

Simply, I think that homeschooling families need to first and foremost follow the laws of their state. In Michigan that means teaching regularly and annually the required subjects. Progress is expected to be made. While there isn't any oversight until there is a report, simply buying a curriculum of some kind, having books on these topics, and working on them regularly would take a lot of teeth out of the problem.

 

There is so much of this kind of trouble in Michigan, that I would actually be supportive of a state law that required a portfolio review, but not by a teacher from your own school district because that is a conflict of interest since not enrolling your child in that person's district is a loss of per head funding. I think that you should be able to hire anyone with a teaching license, or any professional educator such as a college professor, or even an educational psychologist, your choice. I am not a fan of standardized testing because many students may know the material, just not do well recalling it quickly under the stress so the results are a lot more skewed. A portfolio shows that academic work was accomplished.

 

The actual statute says, " (3)(f) The child is being educated at the child’s home by his or her parent or legal guardian in an organized educational program in the subject areas of Reading, Spelling, Mathematics, Science, History, Civics, Literature, Writing and English Grammar.â€

 

Note the use of "an organized educational program". Either get curriculum and do it, or if unschooling, organize your unschooling in a manner in which you can defend and show due progress.

 

Mandatory attendance either in the homeschool, a private school, or a public school is required to the age of 18. DE, tutoring, or leaving for college or vo-tech early is considered "still in attendance" in terms of truancy laws. Sitting around doing nothing from the age of 6 - 18 is NOT legal.

 

So, I'm all for following the law and not feeling particularly sorry for those that blatantly violate it and end up in the hot seat because though I am no fan of my local PS, the reality is that instruction is made in the above subjects and the opportunity to learn is presented. Again, this is where an annual portfolio review would be really helpful.

 

I would also be all for a letter of intent required when the child reaches six, submitted not to the local superintendent of schools but to an independent tracking office that doesn't have a vested interest in losing your paperwork or being stinky about it, maybe the University of Michigan, or Wayne State University or whatever. Along with that letter of intent would be the requirement to log into an online seminar in which the parameters of the homeschool statute are discussed and one is reminded of the awesome responsibility that one is taking on in home educating the child. Failure to file the letter of intent and log into the seminar by a specific deadline would incur a $250.00 fine which would go to your local library.

 

In terms of what can homeschoolers do about parents that don't do anything? I doubt there is a lot that can be done other than if you are a mandatory reporter and you have parent or child statements, first hand knowledge, don't sacrifice your own integrity and possible right to continue homeschooling in the future by "protecting" that parent. Make the phone call. If CPS doesn't follow up, that's not your problem, but at least no one can question your integrity or level charges and accusations at you in the future.

 

When people ask me about homeschooling, I am pretty blunt. I think this is important. Too many homeschoolers see home education as the panacea for what ails a lot of problems in a lot of families so naturally are super enthusiastic and can sometimes make it sound like sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns. Sometimes we get lucky and have unicorn and fairy days. But more days than not we are rousing kids and getting them to the table to do math and write paragraphs, working in that map skills book, figuring out why we haven't charted any growth on those pea plants in the last week, balancing equations with the older ones while chasing a toddler, figuring out what's for dinner while listening to, "Hey mom, did you know that the Crimean War began as an argument over the Holy areas of Palestine?", and shouting at the cat to get off of someone's science fair project while reminding someone else to get that rabbit cage cleaned out now, as another child suddenly decides this would be an excellent time to take that timed multiplication tables' test because we all like to do those things when the four year old is screaming because she fell down the step!

 

Honesty. Probably when we talk with others about homeschooling, we need to be more honest. Some people just simply aren't cut out for homeschooling. Maybe if everyone is very, very honest about the process, about daily life, about scheduling, about making progress, then only those that are going to be truly committed will choose to tackle the bear.

 

 

 

 

[happypamama]

I sure hope you're wrong, Tibbie, about five years at the most. Ugh. I know this is one reason I make my kids present themselves well in public -- dress tidily, behave well, give nobody reason to question homeschoolers. I'm not a fan of standardized testing, but it does serve to keep people off our backs if we can present good test scores.

 

I think supporting families would be helpful. Experienced moms can ask new homeschooling moms how it's going, are they struggling, provide some accountability. External accountability can be very low for homeschooling moms.

[Ellie]

 

 

So, I'm all for following the law and not feeling particularly sorry for those that blatantly violate it and end up in the hot seat because though I am no fan of my local PS, the reality is that instruction is made in the above subjects and the opportunity to learn is presented. Again, this is where an annual portfolio review would be really helpful.

 

I would also be all for a letter of intent required when the child reaches six, submitted not to the local superintendent of schools but to an independent tracking office that doesn't have a vested interest in losing your paperwork or being stinky about it, maybe the University of Michigan, or Wayne State University or whatever. Along with that letter of intent would be the requirement to log into an online seminar in which the parameters of the homeschool statute are discussed and one is reminded of the awesome responsibility that one is taking on in home educating the child. Failure to file the letter of intent and log into the seminar by a specific deadline would incur a $250.00 fine which would go to your local library.

 

And yet functional illiteracy is rampant in our public schools, with all of their testing and oversight and credentialed people. Public school officials are never held accountable for the poor educational outcome of their students. Why should homeschoolers be held to a higher standard?

 

And as far as your second paragraph, oh heck no. Absolutely not. Whole lotta nope.

[Tanaqui]

Legally, I can think of a few things.

 

First and foremost, I think all homeschoolers of at least high-school age should be able to be dual-enrolled in homeschool AND public high school (AND public college if they're at that level in those subjects and the scheduling works out). It seems the least expensive option for your kid getting instruction in $SUBJECT that you might not be able or willing to teach yourself, especially if, for whatever reason, there aren't many other options in that area you can access. I can see how that might not work well for elementary school, but by high school kids are usually switching classes, so except maybe in very small schools it should be possible for a kid to come in for just math and band (or whatever) and do the rest elsewhere.

 

(It also seems self-evident to me that most people will find it easier to teach early years than later ones, simply because the material is harder.)

 

More carrot, less stick. There are some other thoughts floating in my brain, but I want to get them organized before I type them up.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Problem is homeschooling is not something to have in common with people.  One would think, but no.  I don't feel a part of any sort of "movement".  And I don't think it's my responsibility to police other homeschoolers. 

 

I'd love it if my local schools would allow part time or even participation in clubs, music, etc.  Anything.  But as it is now, they don't allow anything whatsoever.  AND I have to jump through pointless hoops. 

 

We have to submit test scores.  Of all the things we have to do, as much as I hate doing it, it's THE one thing that makes any sense at all.  The part about me telling them what I plan to do?  Stupid.  The part about me telling them how I think my kids are doing 4 times a year?  Also stupid. 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

And yet functional illiteracy is rampant in our public schools, with all of their testing and oversight and credentialed people. Public school officials are never held accountable for the poor educational outcome of their students. Why should homeschoolers be held to a higher standard?

 

And as far as your second paragraph, oh heck no. Absolutely not. Whole lotta nope.

When I said to obey the laws of the land, I meant reasonable and appropriate laws. Any "parenting" regulations that would be more onerous on Hs parents than ps parents concerning lawful decisions for their children would drive me underground. Faith Manors ideal laws would have me practicing civil disobedience because of two things:

 

1. The inherent presumption that the children belong to the state (not even to themselves, parental rights debates aside) and

2. The presumption that the basic curriculum, graded, no less, is appropriate for 100% of the children. There must be some provision, some sacred ground, for outliers.

[SparklyUnicorn]

When I said to obey the laws of the land, I meant reasonable and appropriate laws. Any "parenting" regulations that would be more onerous on Hs parents than ps parents concerning lawful decisions for their children would drive me underground. Faith Manors ideal laws would have me practicing civil disobedience because of two things:

 

1. The inherent presumption that the children belong to the state (not even to themselves, parental rights debates aside) and

2. The presumption that the basic curriculum, graded, no less, is appropriate for 100% of the children. There must be some provision, some sacred ground, for outliers.

 

And I'd go with you.

[Shellydon]

Wasn't there a big thread on this last fall?

 

ETA-- sorry -- found it.  It was about a specific neglectful situation, not neglect in general. 

[ElizabethB]

I have remediated hundreds of children. Those that were more than 6 years behind were all coming from public schools backgrounds. One family pulled their child out to homeschool because this child had only learned to read at a 1st grade level after 11 years of instruction in the schools. Mom had got her child up to about 6th grade level in a year and I got him to 10th grade level after 10 co-op class lessons, and I sent home things to get child to 12th grade level.

 

That being said, I think it is a travesty when anyone is not being taught to read or learning at least the basic math skills, no matter the schooling situation.

 

We have lived in a variety of states. I like the Arkansas model. Everyone takes the math and reading portion of the ITBS starting in 3rd grade but there is no required minimum, it is FYI only. They also have years and years worth of data, and since it is non punitive, it is a good sample, only extreme the government is out to get me people do not comply, I never met anyone who did not test. Those that are not going to teach for whatever reason will find a way to game the system, even in high regulation states. But, those that are on the "my kid will be better off than the PS kids no matter what I do" bandwagon get a wake up call each year if they find out their kid really is behind. The Arkansas Dept of Ed has statistics on number of homeschoolers and test scores that are quite interesting to me as a statistician, especially since they have a large sample size and they have used the same test for years.

[PineFarmMom]

It isn't my job!! My job is to educate my own children. If I ever become close enough to a

mom who is doing a poor job, I'll pray for the right words and opportunity to challenge her to raise the bar. I actually have had that happen once. Most of the homeschool moms I know are trying to educate their children well. More laws, more govt. oversight will never be an answer I'm for. They are too involved in everything as it is!!

[SparklyUnicorn]

The very nature of homeschooling is separating one's self from the mainstream and group in at least one major aspect (school at the very least).  This doesn't scream "group movement" really.

 

I've met many homeschoolers, but I have actually not met many I feel like I have a lot in common with.  Sure we can come together and sit at a park and chit chat.  Sometimes we can even go on a field trip together irregardless of our philosophies or methods.  But the bulk of my time is spent on homeschooling my kids.  Not working for the "movement" that doesn't exist.  While there is sort of an impressive number of homeschoolers in this country overall, I am easily reminded I'm pretty unusual when I bring my kids to anything that isn't homeschooler sponsored or organized.  I don't encounter many people who have never heard of the concept, but I still encounter plenty who never met a single homeschooler and have no real idea what it entails. 

 

Heck, I didn't hear about homeschooling even once until I was about 30 something years old. 

 

[Anne in CA]

There were so many wise things said already in this thread that I only have some scattered thoughts.

 

I agree with Ellie that it isn't fair for home schooled kids to be held to a higher standard than other kids. During my recent thread about educational neglect and  remediation I learned that there is more remediation help out there than previously before. That was slightly encouraging, because I had a child who could not/ would not learn in school and I had to sit right next to her at our dining room table for three hours a day to make sure that she got a certain amount of learning done when I figured out that I had to home school. It was actually easier to do that than to make sense out of the gibberish that she came home with disguised as homework, however, so I did it.

 

Parents who will not educate their kids anger me. I never knew any IRL, but you all have convinced me that they do exist. It is not right for them to be excluded from learning. I do know for a fact that in many schools kids are excluded from learning too for a variety of reasons, but at least there is usually some lesson taught, books available, and a chance for an ambitious child to do their own learning. At home a child with no books or teacher will simply watch TV (worst case scenario) or be forced to baby sit siblings and do housework (only slightly better but at least SOME skills are learned and popular culture is not rotting their minds so they might be able to learn something later).

 

I do think that a simple on line check in for home schooled kids might not be a bad thing. The registered home schooled student skypes with a teacher/ social worker three times a year and the teacher/ social worker determines if a home visit might be needed if a student cannot recall ANY book they have read recently or do a couple of oral math problems out loud. But again, it is not fair for home schooled students to be held to a higher standard than ps. My own child got test scores that were so low while attending school that if she had been home schooled she would have had to be re-enrolled in ps. It took a solid year to get her scores up, and people should be given some grace for learning disabilities, ect. 

 

 

[umsami]

In FL, you register with the state and then you have a choice... either an annual portfolio review or a standardized test given by a licensed teacher.   This seems pretty fair.  They want to see progress, or evidence of learning, but I'm unaware of minimum scores.

 

The problem is that FL has an easy out called umbrella schools. All you have to do is submit attendance, nothing else.  So I can say, Junior attended school for 180 days, but that doesn't mean we did anything.

 

In public school, the standardized testing begins in 3rd grade.  If kids don't score a certain score on the reading portion of the FCAT (now called FSA) they attend summer school as a condition to passing (I'm assuming there must be progress shown.)

 

 I can see some sort of critical reading test being administered to homeschoolers around 3rd grade regarding reading.  If your child doesn't pass, then s/he has the option to attend the PS summer program, you can enroll him/her with a reading specialist/program, or you can work with a teacher to mentor you in how to address any issues.

 

Similarly, there should be some sort of basic math test for homeschoolers that is passed in, I don't know, 7th-8th grade.  If not, a remediation plan is put in place, or the student can take online classes or what not.

 

I do think that there is too much of a MYOB attitude towards homeschoolers who neglect the education of their children.  I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not.  Should they be requirements? No.  But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work.  States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

[EmseB]

Please don't use this discussion to bash public schools. i.e. "Until public schools raise their standard and keep kids from fall between the cracks, people need to lay off homeschoolers." So, even if people educated in other ways have been failed, it is not relevant for this discussion.

 

 

 

Why isn't it relevant???  In my mind, it's one of the hugely relevant things to this whole topic.

 

The funny thing about all of this is that I could send my kid to a public school and never, ever do anything else for them and I wouldn't fall into the category of educational neglect or be worthy of a CPS call.  My kid could graduate from a public school and be handed a diploma that says they met all the state standards for reading, math, etc without actually being able to do any of it.  They could take a "calculus" class in a local public school that is nothing more than pre-algebra and trying to get everyone to quiet down for 45 minutes to learn how to do one problem.  Kids are lied to with high school diplomas every year in this country...just lied to and told they have an education they never received.  They are defrauded by the state.

 

And yet, we need more of the same state officials looking into the 2% of families who home school, some of whom are doing so to escape those awful conditions?  Some of whom are doing so because their kids simply can't thrive in a one-size-fits all classroom of 30 kids?  But we need the people who manage those schools to look in on what our home school is doing?

 

It doesn't make any sense.  I don't have any objection to registering my home school with the state and I'm not trying to keep my kids off the grid.  I just don't see how the same bureaucracy that manages public schools can evaluate home schools in a meaningful way.

[Murphy101]

I don't think regulation and oversight is the solution. Like others have pointed out, that's not working too well for the public schools. So I fail to see how doing the same for home schoolers and expecting a different result makes sense.

 

ETA: I don't think that is bashing schools. It's just a basic fact. X didn't work for group A, so why expected it to work for group B

[Ellie]

In FL, you register with the state and then you have a choice... either an annual portfolio review or a standardized test given by a licensed teacher.   This seems pretty fair.  They want to see progress, or evidence of learning, but I'm unaware of minimum scores.

 

The problem is that FL has an easy out called umbrella schools. All you have to do is submit attendance, nothing else.  So I can say, Junior attended school for 180 days, but that doesn't mean we did anything.

 

In public school, the standardized testing begins in 3rd grade.  If kids don't score a certain score on the reading portion of the FCAT (now called FSA) they attend summer school as a condition to passing (I'm assuming there must be progress shown.)  I can see some sort of critical reading test being administered around 3rd grade regarding reading.  If your child doesn't pass, then s/he has the option to attend the PS summer program, you can enroll him/her with a reading specialist/program, or you can work with a teacher to mentor you in how to address any issues.

 

Similarly, there should be some sort of basic math test that is passed in, I don't know, 7th-8th grade.  If not, a remediation plan is put in place, or the student can take online classes or what not.

 

I do think that there is too much of a MYOB attitude towards homeschoolers who neglect the education of their children.  I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not.  Should they be requirements? No.  But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work.  States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

 

Here in Texas, the annual end-of-year test is a joke. Teachers begin teaching its content in January. And Texas is still pretty darn low on the education scale. Standardized test results (and by that I mean SAT, CTBS, something that is *standardized* on a national basis) should never be the only criteria for whether a child may move on to the next grade level.

 

And I would still be opposed to any sort of mandatory testing for homeschooled children, especially if it somehow is supposed to determine whether the child can move on to the next grade. I don't believe homeschooled children should be quantified or defined by "grade level."

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

In FL, you register with the state and then you have a choice... either an annual portfolio review or a standardized test given by a licensed teacher.   This seems pretty fair.  They want to see progress, or evidence of learning, but I'm unaware of minimum scores.

 

 

I'd love to have a portfolio option.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

I do think that there is too much of a MYOB attitude towards homeschoolers who neglect the education of their children.  I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not.  Should they be requirements? No.  But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work.  States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

 

Why would the state and/or public schools want to support homeschooling?    Why would public school teachers coach homeschooling parents?   Those teachers want the kids in their classrooms.   

[Murphy101]

Here in Texas, the annual end-of-year test is a joke. Teachers begin teaching its content in January. And Texas is still pretty darn low on the education scale. Standardized test results (and by that I mean SAT, CTBS, something that is *standardized* on a national basis) should never be the only criteria for whether a child may move on to the next grade level.

 

And I would still be opposed to any sort of mandatory testing for homeschooled children, especially if it somehow is supposed to determine whether the child can move on to the next grade. I don't believe homeschooled children should be quantified or defined by "grade level."

 

Me either. Mostly because I don't think grade levels really exist. For example. Kindergarten here could have a just turned 5 year old up to turning 7 in a few months. 5 years old by September 1st can enroll, but it is not compulsory until age 6 by the same date. A kid might have turned 5 oct 30. Or they might have turned 6 January 1st. Between that and other individual development issues, I think "grade level" would have to be a rather wide range in elementary school least to accomodate normal development. So wide as to be ineffective. In high school I think the distance might be smaller, but still significant. it just seems like a not very effective evaluation marker imo.

[Murphy101]

I keep one anyway, for each child, with a work sample from each subject, each semester, along with a summary page of their texts and skills they learned. It's not required by my state but I like having it just in case. And it's nest to go back and see their progress. It's essentially the only scrap booking I do for my kids, but it also provides me legal cover if we ever move to a state with more stringent reporting requirements or I need to prove, for some reason, what we covered and when.

I do this too. Once in a while, not every year, I do either ITBS or ACT too. Mostly so they are familiar with testing than concern over how they do on it.

[6packofun]

One thing I would like to see change a little bit within the homeschooling community is the "set school aside for a season" attitude that we so often get as a response when we're having a rough time, are burned out, or our kids have discipline issues.  This is vague enough that when it comes from other moms we respect and they KEEP on saying that it's OK to work on character for a while or to just enjoy each other or make the world our classroom and come back to the books later...we can get off track to the point that it becomes a real struggle to get back.  I don't mean obsessing about "gaps" and such, but I recall very vividly being told many, many times that it was OK to not really do school while we worked through family issues or moved 3x in one year. 

 

Now, it is everyone's own responsibility to not take a break that is too long, but some of us need a push to DO school even when it's hard!  I know I did.  The blame lies with me, but I was willing as a newbie to take advice that sounded like a relief at the time.  LOL I see that suggestion less here or in more rigorous/schoolish type homeschooling communities, but there is still a lot of that going on.  It's OK to suggest that someone puts their kid in a charter school for a year or does a course or two on the computer just so they get it *done*!  (And no, that's not always the answer, either, but advise very cautiously I guess is my point.)

[Murphy101]

I do think that there is too much of a MYOB attitude towards homeschoolers who neglect the education of their children. I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not. Should they be requirements? No. But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work. States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

This is available to any person who wants it already.

 

It's called libraries and the Internet. They could get the WTM books and a lot more. For free.

 

That's how I learned these things when I started home schooling over a decade ago.

 

The problem is that parents who care about their child's education are going to seek ways to educate their kids. And parents who don't, won't. The biggest factor in whether a public school kid will learn anything there is the same for a home school kid or a private school kid - it is having their parents make it happen. Parents that will after school, go to the library, hire tutors, nag the teachers to help and so on.

 

I also don't think it reasonable to further burden the public school teachers who are already drowning.

 

Also, we have the oh so not my cup of tea virtual public schools here. They are supposed to have daily access to a live teacher in person or virtual if they need help, but the teachers can't get their act together to help them. Emails go unanswered, materials don't arrive, the technology glitches or fails, teachers have too many students to keep straight and mix up info, and the testing never ends. Everyday they are dealing with some kind of test. Parents who don't want to teach don't push for their kids. Parents who are very invested in their child's education ditch it for something else.

 

So based on that... No. I don't think that's going to help much.

[Lisa R.]

It isn't my job!! My job is to educate my own children. If I ever become close enough to a

mom who is doing a poor job, I'll pray for the right words and opportunity to challenge her to raise the bar. I actually have had that happen once. Most of the homeschool moms I know are trying to educate their children well. More laws, more govt. oversight will never be an answer I'm for. They are too involved in everything as it is!!

 

 

I agree with this. I don't see homeschooling as a "movement", no more than private schooling is a "movement". I know this is going to sound selfish and mean, but don't feel responsible for any other homeschoolers. I am responsible for my own children, period, the end. Naturally, if I suspect child abuse or neglect, I would report it, same as I would for a public or private schooled child. But to say we all belong to a movement and have some sort of responsibility toward the public perception of that movement is wrong, imo.

 

Well, I think the point is that if responsible homeschoolers don't look outward, their ability to homeschool could be taken away from them. If more and more stories and more and more kids come out being abysmally educated, states could come in and change the laws. 

 

Looking outward and trying to find a solution to educational neglect within homeschooling doesn't need to include government oversight. There are other ways to encourage homeschoolers to be diligent.

 

 

 

Why isn't it relevant???  In my mind, it's one of the hugely relevant things to this whole topic.

 

The funny thing about all of this is that I could send my kid to a public school and never, ever do anything else for them and I wouldn't fall into the category of educational neglect or be worthy of a CPS call.  My kid could graduate from a public school and be handed a diploma that says they met all the state standards for reading, math, etc without actually being able to do any of it.  They could take a "calculus" class in a local public school that is nothing more than pre-algebra and trying to get everyone to quiet down for 45 minutes to learn how to do one problem.  Kids are lied to with high school diplomas every year in this country...just lied to and told they have an education they never received.  They are defrauded by the state.

 

And yet, we need more of the same state officials looking into the 2% of families who home school, some of whom are doing so to escape those awful conditions?  Some of whom are doing so because their kids simply can't thrive in a one-size-fits all classroom of 30 kids?  But we need the people who manage those schools to look in on what our home school is doing?

 

It doesn't make any sense.  I don't have any objection to registering my home school with the state and I'm not trying to keep my kids off the grid.  I just don't see how the same bureaucracy that manages public schools can evaluate home schools in a meaningful way.

 

Why do you assume the government is the only possible solution to this neglect? That's why I wanted to start a discussion to see if there was a better or less intrusive way to help the homeschooled kids that are falling between the cracks. 

 

Since you brought it up, I would venture to say that a student taking calculus at a low-performing public school is still far better off than the child in a home where algebra hasn't even been covered. However, I don't feel it's profitable to bring the public schools into this discussion. We're talking about how homeschoolers can help each other.

[Murphy101]

I agree with Tibbie and 6pack.

 

I heard a lot of advice to just relax for a season. Especially when kids were born or sick or ...

 

uhh. No. That would be a LOT of seasons. Like one decade and a half long season.

 

That has always been unacceptable to me and I always pointed out the flaw of their platitude when they said stuff like that to me. I guess my being viewed as an over achiever made them feel guilty? Idk. Yes it was often hard and stressful. But I don't do this job because it's easy or pays well. :)

[snowbeltmom]

 I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not.  Should they be requirements? No.  But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work.  States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

 

I pulled my kids from public school because of the horrid math program.  There is no way I would want any "help" from the state when choosing my curricula.  ;)

 

 

[Lisa R.]

 

The problem is that parents who care about their child's education are going to seek ways to educate their kids. And parents who don't, won't. The biggest factor in whether a public school kid will learn anything there is the same for a home school kid or a private school kid - it is having their parents make it happen. Parents that will after school, go to the library, hire tutors, nag the teachers to help and so on.

 

 

 

The difference is that a child at a public school with disinterested and unengaged parents still has a chance at the public school. The material is presented, at some schools better than others, but it is there nonetheless. 

 

The child at home who is not given access to enough books or lacks exposure to math, doesn't have the opportunity--at all. Depending on how sheltered he is, he may not have the tools to know how to get that access.

[happypamama]

My parents homeschooled my younger siblings from 1993-2003 in a state where homeschool umbrella groups function as private schools, and their diplomas were recognized as private school diplomas. You had to show that you'd met state requirements for math, English, etc. for a diploma, but beyond that, the umbrella group required that you turn in a curriculum declaration form each year, and they required you to turn in year-end grades. You weren't necessarily bound to the curricula you had listed, because things could change, and I think a solid non textbook plan would have been acceptable too, but I think their goal was to have people show that they'd thought about how they were going to educate their children. Non schooling wasn't going to work. They were putting their name on the line by having your child in their group and saying that your child hd met state requirements, so it seems reasonable to me that they'd want to know what your plan was. If you turned in a plan that said "Saxon 5/4" for the same child three years in a row, that would probably be a red flag that something was up, and they'd ask for more explanation. I think if you couldn't actually show some reasonable progress, or attempt at progress, they'd not have you be part of their umbrella any longer.

 

In contrast, my state doesn't have those sorts of umbrella groups, but we have to turn in a list of objectives every year. They aren't allowed to hold you to the objectives, nor ask why you didn't fulfill any of them, or anything like that. The objectives are completely meaningless. My evaluators have never seen the objectives I've turned into the school, and now, the school will get the objectives but won't see our portfolios. How is that at all helpful? If we are going to have oversight, IMO, it should be of the type like my parents, where it might actually be useful, where issues might be caught before they blew up too much. Our support group is just a support group. It is very helpful, but we don't have the same impetus to give parents a gentle kick in the behind that my parents' group did, because it's not our name on the line.

 

Unfortunately, I think we aren't going to prevent all educational neglect, whether it's public or home. Children will always slip through the cracks, and there will always be some slick parents. But perhaps I will discuss with my support group Board of Directors how we can continue to support, encourage, and gently police, our member families.

[AimeeM]

Hmm. How does this testing procedure account for children with documented LDs? My daughter will likely never (or may only rarely) pass a standardized test's reading/language arts section on grade level; whe would likely show IMPROVEMENT, but not on grade level, despite OG resources being used. It would get ridiculously tiring to have to, every year, go through the song and dance with a public school system that doesn't recognize dyslexia as a special need - no reading specialists, no OG tutors. My state isn't the only one like this, either.

In math, what if a parent follows an atypical sequence? The end result is generally the same amount of knowledge acquired, but they may not test "on grade level" currently. 

Part of the reason many people homeschool is to give their children *different* than the public school system. Requiring children test on the same level as their public school peers kind of kills that.

In FL, you register with the state and then you have a choice... either an annual portfolio review or a standardized test given by a licensed teacher.   This seems pretty fair.  They want to see progress, or evidence of learning, but I'm unaware of minimum scores.

 

The problem is that FL has an easy out called umbrella schools. All you have to do is submit attendance, nothing else.  So I can say, Junior attended school for 180 days, but that doesn't mean we did anything.

 

In public school, the standardized testing begins in 3rd grade.  If kids don't score a certain score on the reading portion of the FCAT (now called FSA) they attend summer school as a condition to passing (I'm assuming there must be progress shown.)  I can see some sort of critical reading test being administered around 3rd grade regarding reading.  If your child doesn't pass, then s/he has the option to attend the PS summer program, you can enroll him/her with a reading specialist/program, or you can work with a teacher to mentor you in how to address any issues.

 

Similarly, there should be some sort of basic math test that is passed in, I don't know, 7th-8th grade.  If not, a remediation plan is put in place, or the student can take online classes or what not.

 

I do think that there is too much of a MYOB attitude towards homeschoolers who neglect the education of their children.  I also think States could help by perhaps providing lists of 'successful" curricula that work well, or recommendations, or what not.  Should they be requirements? No.  But kind of like with the WTM book, these are some good solid programs that work.  States that really wanted to support homeschooling could also consider having free webinars by teachers for parents in how to teach certain subjects that may be more difficult.

 

[Lisa R.]

 

We have lived in a variety of states. I like the Arkansas model. Everyone takes the math and reading portion of the ITBS starting in 3rd grade but there is no required minimum, it is FYI only. They also have years and years worth of data, and since it is non punitive, it is a good sample, only extreme the government is out to get me people do not comply, I never met anyone who did not test. Those that are not going to teach for whatever reason will find a way to game the system, even in high regulation states. But, those that are on the "my kid will be better off than the PS kids no matter what I do" bandwagon get a wake up call each year if try find out their kid really is behind. The Arkansas Dept of Ed has statistics on number of homeschoolers and test scores that are quite interesting to me as a statistician, especially since they have a large sample size and they have used the same test for years.

 

I actually like this idea. It might give some parents an awareness that perhaps they need to build up some subjects they didn't realize were slipping. While these tests aren't perfect, they do provide some measurable feedback outside of their home schooling. Since this is non punitive, there would be a higher compliance rate.

 

I'm curious. What do these test scores reflect? How are the Arkansas homeschoolers doing?

[Murphy101]

The difference is that a child at a public school with disinterested and unengaged parents still has a chance at the public school. The material is presented, at some schools better than others, but it is there nonetheless.

 

The child at home who is not given access to enough books or lacks exposure to math, doesn't have the opportunity--at all. Depending on how sheltered he is, he may not have the tools to know how to get that access.

Statisticly, that optimistic theory that just being in a school means some kind of academic minimum will be absorbed isn't panning out.

 

Statisticly, the greatest factor of a student's education progress is the level of parental expectation and encouragement.

 

I know my exception wasn't because of the school either. Neither of my parents made it past 6/8th grade and their view of school was that, as a girl, high school didn't matter, and that my education was the school's problem and they shouldn't have to deal with it. As long as I didn't get held back, they didn't care. In fact, when I graduated high school, I had to inform them what school I was graduating from because they didn't know where it was or what the name of it was. lol

 

The single greatest contributor to my education was a library card and two legs willing to walk 4 miles to one and nice librarians. And at that time, my school was supposedly one of the top 3 in the state. Which is really bothersome to me bc I hated it.

[WTMCassandra]

I've only home schooled in two states: Virginia and Washington. Both required annual testing in math and reading. Virginia required it to be sent in to the PS superintendent, Washington only requires you keep it on file.  The government requiring some kind of testing (for neurotypical kids, scores allowed to range reasonably) seems to make sense to me because they have a vested interest in making sure my grown children can support themselves. I do think there should be exemptions and alternative pathways for special needs--in Washington you are allowed to have an in-person assessment by a certified teacher, which also seems pretty reasonable.

 

I'm one of those "over-responsible" types who Always. Does. School. Unless. Near Death. HOWEVER, I have to say that the ideas of portfolios and/or in-person chats with officials wig me out majorly. NO WAY would I want that to be the law. I follow the law, but I want to be pretty anonymous while doing it. Sending my Notice of Intent to the school district once a year is plenty of official contact for me--I always send it certified mail rather than showing up in person.

 

Now, I think a bit more care in high school might be warranted. Perhaps some sort of curriculum plan each year, very top-level, not a huge amount of detail, might be wise to require. (Not sure if I will get flames for this.) I have seen a number of parents, even otherwise conscientious ones, frantically trying to pull a transcript together a day or two before a college application, or signing up to serve in the military, or . . . I think this is problematic because high school does require a higher level of documentation. 

 

I also agree with the poster up-thread that people should take their state law seriously and follow it--organized curriculum, teaching basic subjects, etc.

 

I think that the "let school go for a season" advice should be given carefully. Those who tend to be too hard on themselves might need this from time to time. Those who tend to wave away things should think carefully before following such advice. If your "season" lasts longer than a month or two, some refiguring is in order, somehow . . .

 

The bottom line is that people need to take this job seriously and show up. Every day.

[ElizabethB]

I actually like this idea. It might give some parents an awareness that perhaps they need to build up some subjects they didn't realize were slipping. While these tests aren't perfect, they do provide some measurable feedback outside of their home schooling. Since this is non punitive, there would be a higher compliance rate.

 

I'm curious. What do these test scores reflect? How are the Arkansas homeschoolers doing?

16 years worth of reports!

 

http://www.arkansased.org/divisions/learning-services/home-schools/home-school-reports

 

Page 62 of the most recent report has exact numbers for each grade level, but on average around the 60th percentile for reading and low to mid 50s for math.

 

They also have a chart showing overall homeschool enrollment by year for almost the last 30 years and a by county number count for the whole state. I think the Duggars are running up the numbers in their county, LOL, it is higher for that area than I thought it might be, although someone informed me that there are actually 3 large cities in that area. I am sticking with my theory, though.

[AMJ]

Me either. Mostly because I don't think grade levels really exist. For example. Kindergarten here could have a just turned 5 year old up to turning 7 in a few months. 5 years old by September 1st can enroll, but it is not compulsory until age 6 by the same date. A kid might have turned 5 oct 30. Or they might have turned 6 January 1st. Between that and other individual development issues, I think "grade level" would have to be a rather wide range in elementary school least to accomodate normal development. So wide as to be ineffective. In high school I think the distance might be smaller, but still significant. it just seems like a not very effective evaluation marker imo.

 

This is only our second year homeschooling, after several years in private schools.  Already my kids are asking me what "grade" they are in now.  Turns out, they just want to know what grade they would have been in had they stayed in brick & mortar school.  They actually giggle a bit over my attempts to grade-equivalize their school work.  It's all over the place.

[Ellie]

Why would the state and/or public schools want to support homeschooling?    Why would public school teachers coach homeschooling parents?   Those teachers want the kids in their classrooms.   

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[HS Mom in NC]

Legally

 

I think keeping it unregulated while still allowing the possibility of prosecuting people for educational neglect is a viable option. This is very similar to the idea of having the ability to prosecute parents for child neglect and/or abuse without making every single parent jump through some regulatory hoop and remain under constant government supervision from their child’s birth. That isn’t the same as assuming children belong to the state. We don't make every parent prove to the government that they're doing a good job until their child is grown.  We assume they’re doing an adequate job unless someone reports that they’re neglecting or abusing a child.  Then there are protocols for seeing if the accusation is founded. (Yes, I think there should be a version of this for public schools too so parents who think their child isn't getting what they need or ps teachers who are seeing abuse or neglect in another teacher has some way to bring it to government attention.)

 

The state of AZ has made the compulsory school ages 8-16.  They simply tell you to teach reading, writing, math, social studies and science.  They don't say when or how. They don't require testing. There is no minimum number of school days. That's the lawmakers meeting you more than halfway so you can be as flexible as you need to be.  Now hold up your end of the deal.

That also means cases of neglect would have to be reported and investigated on a case by case basis.  It would mean making sure that a government entity as part of CPS (or whichever government agency makes the most sense )investigating accusations of educational neglect  is made up of people intimately familiar with wide ranging variations in educational philosophies and teaching methods so unschoolers and other types of less conventional homeschoolers doing an adequate job aren't discriminated against. What we really need to be looking out for are people claiming to be homeschooling who are just keeping their kids home and doing nothing academic as in the case that prompted this discussion.

 

Laws that protect your right to homeschool mean the state recognizes your right to school your children at home in some manner. Compulsory attendance laws (applicable to homeschoolers too) were not passed so you could register your child as a homeschooler at whatever the compulsory attendance age is and then refuse to regularly teach them solid, basic, essential academic skills for many months or years. The laws passed to legally protect your right to homeschool were never meant to protect your right to teach religious views at the expense of basic, solid, academics.  Laws protecting your right to homeschool your child were passed based on the premise that parents without teacher certification or a particular level of education are capable of providing solid, basic, essential academics K-12.  When homeschoolers fail to do that they're giving credence to the idea that states are wrong to pass homeschooling laws at all.

 

Investigations that seem to have some basis in fact should begin with an assessment of what materials and activities the child has been engaged in.  There should be a basic academic skills assessment and any child falling significantly below typical grade levels in any area should be tested for learning disabilities. I think it would be interesting to hold those skills the child has up against a list of essential skills for college showing what a child would need to complete by age 18 to be college ready. It could be broken down by typical age based grade levels.  What an eye opener that would be for some parents. Then there should be some sort of supervision where the appropriate help is required (like in child abuse/neglect cases) where parents should be made to understand how far below the norms their children are and a plan should be made for short term and longer term goals. Some follow up will have to happen until a child is on track for a while for him or her to be theoretically possible to master those basic skills by 18.

 

Homeschool Community Culture

 

 

Academic Norms

 

The first homeschooling book I read said it all in the title.  It was Homeschooling for Excellence by the Colfaxes.  That needs to be the dominant attitude about academics in the homeschooling community.  We need to have a culture of high expectations for neurotypical children.  We also need to have an attitude of acceptance and encouragement as parents of children who are not neurotypical get help in seeing to it their children can be all they can be.  When people drop bombs like, "Heaven, not Harvard" or "Saints, not Scholars" etc. people of faith need to respond with how wrong that thinking is.  You want to be soft in your choice of words about it? Fine.  You want to call it straight out with something like, "That's ridiculous.  It's never either or." Fine.  Just don't sit in silence.  Start dealing with it in whatever words you think are best, just say them out loud already.

 

Basic Sanitation 

 

Same with running a household and keeping basic sanitation in order (another aspect of the case that prompted this discussion.) While it's not possible to keep an immaculate house with several littles underfoot and homeschooling a bunch of bigs, it is possible to maintain basic cleanliness. If someone is telling you about a pattern of mold and maggots, it's time to pipe up and ask them what they're going to do to avoid such unacceptable conditions ever again. Don’t sit silently and hope someday the figure out that a level of filth that high is a danger to children. Part of this is letting go of impossible idealistic standards from the other extreme.  If you're so busy with whatever else is going on in your life that you can't keep the dishes from becoming a biohazard, it's a severe problem that needs to be dealt with immediately.

 

Accepting and Normalizing Outsourcing

 

Outsourcing a la carte and public school options shouldn't be portrayed as sinful or as failures.  Talk openly about other Christians you know who are doing a great job raising their kids in the faith while still sending them to ps.  Talk about what a good idea it is to outsource when homeschooling that kid or that subject just isn’t working out.  Talk to your legislators about legally labeling and protecting outsourcing so parents who just don't want to do any actual homeschooling and don’t like their institutional school options have la carte outsourcing as an option.  Talk to private schools and public schools about outsourcing options to homeschoolers for a fee.

 

Reinforce the idea that homeschooling isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

 

[IsabelC]

 

I think keeping it unregulated while still allowing the possibility of prosecuting people for educational neglect is a viable option. This is very similar to the idea of having the ability to prosecute parents for child neglect and/or abuse without making every single parent jump through some regulatory hoop and remain under constant government supervision from their child’s birth. 

I found this idea interesting. It's certainly an attractive idea to refrain from making everybody jump through too many hoops. But I'd be concerned that the more ad hoc the approach to investigating families, the more potential for certain groups to be harassed. (For example in Australia you are about 17 times more likely to be arrested if you are an Indigenous person, so I wouldn't be surprised if Indigenous families were more likely to be investigated for educational irregularities in this scenario, which would be a terrible outcome given our history with stolen children etc.) Although of course this can already happen with general child neglect (or abuse) so not sure how much difference it would make bringing educational neglect into line with that.

 

 

That isn’t the same as assuming children belong to the state. We don't make every parent prove to the government that they're doing a good job until their child is grown.  

I think that is in fact what the Scottish Government is trying to do with its controversial Named Person legislation, which I can't honestly see working well even if they do manage to get it fully implemented.

 

[Laura Corin]

I'm not averse to an annual governmental visit (edited to add: at a convenient location), with parent and children present, to go over whatever work has been done that year.  The visit should show progress, taking into account any documented special needs.

 

The English case law fits with my views of our duty to our own children:

 

 The term 'suitable education' was defined as one which enabled the children to achieve their full potential, and was such as to prepare the children for life in modern civilised society. The term 'efficient' was defined as achieving that which it sets out to achieve.

 

So the home education should not limit children to, for example, enough maths to run a remote sheep farm, because that would prevent the child from attending university in a scientific subject.

 

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why would the state and/or public schools want to support homeschooling?    Why would public school teachers coach homeschooling parents?   Those teachers want the kids in their classrooms.   

 

Yeah that's like asking bakers to rally for getting people to bake their bread at home.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would not like visits.  I would be willing to meet with an official, but not in my home.  Public schooled students don't have to endure that.

 

I don't see what that would do anyway.

 

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would not like that either, but I kind of see the benefit. The officials would be able to observe the kids in their family environment, see the books and other educational resources they have, and... spot maggots :D. If this type of visit would help, I would be OK with it, theoretically. I say this knowing it will not actually happen to us, though. 

 

Not their damn business.

 

But I don't trust people easily . I think some people don't like homeschooling and they'd love to find a "problem". 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I keep one anyway, for each child, with a work sample from each subject, each semester, along with a summary page of their texts and skills they learned. It's not required by my state but I like having it just in case. And it's nest to go back and see their progress. It's essentially the only scrap booking I do for my kids, but it also provides me legal cover if we ever move to a state with more stringent reporting requirements or I need to prove, for some reason, what we covered and when.

 

I've saved all their school work.  It's a bit ridiculous and it's for no reason than I feel sentimental about it. 

I can't fathom a reason I'd ever need a portfolio, but maybe a better idea than saving everything.  LOL 

[Laura Corin]

I would not like visits.  I would be willing to meet with an official, but not in my home.  Public schooled students don't have to endure that.

 

I don't see what that would do anyway.

 

I didn't actually say 'in their home'.  I know that UK home educators (who can provide evidence of progress in various forms if challenged, but some of whom choose to meet an official) have used meeting rooms at libraries, for example.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I totally agree. That's why I think anyone doing home visits should NOT be opposed to homeschooling at all. 

 

Maybe it's a trust thing or I'm too sensitive, but whenever someone is dealing with me regarding my kids I often feel like they are being intrusive jerks and treating me like I'm stupid.  Like the doctor asking me a laundry list of no duh questions.  I know that is just part of his job and of all the doctors I've brought my kids to the current one is one of the less annoying ones.  And he has no issues with homeschooling. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well consider a parent can send their kid to school for years.  They can go to every parent teacher conference.  They can appear like decent parents.  And the truth could be they are abusing their kid.  So what would any sort of meeting or visit accomplish?  If the schools can be clueless and blind to abuse of a child sitting in front of them every day, they won't gather much from a brief meeting. 

 

 

[DawnM]

As soon as the public school monitors the students they have better, they can start talking about monitoring other students outside of their realm.