Question about testing

[MistyMountain]

I am getting ds tested a tutoring place with a really good reputation. They will be doing a evaluation that covers quite a bit and will test for dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD etc but not IQ. Ds goes to school and his teacher said he will have trouble with the writing next year. Getting an IEP isn't easy from what I hear but I heard if you can show a discrepancy between achievement and cognition it is possible. I have no idea what kind of testing they do through the school and if it is an actual test or something more achievement based. Where can you get just IQ testing done and would a typical test recognize a potential twice exceptional child.

[kbutton]

You can go to an educational psychologist or a neuropsychologist. They will do something like the WISC (IQ) and probably the Woodcock Johnson (achievement). The WISC and WJ will pick up on trends in areas of strength and weakness. Some patterns suggest additional testing, but they will also want a history on the child from you. The WISC and WJ are not necessarily enough for a diagnosis of anything, but it can be a way to learn a lot about a child and possibly to suggest a direction for any additional testing.

 

Is this a public charter school? If so, they are probably obligated to follow any IEP that you obtain.

 

You can go through the public school for an IEP evaluation. They might have good testers, or they might not. However, they are required to respond to your request for an evaluation. Your state should have information on it's dept. of ed. website.

 

I think the typical model now is to have the child failing something or meeting a specific disability category (it is here). A discrepancy between achievement and cognition is not necessarily something that will get you an evaluation, though that is what the experts often advocate.

 

We had private evaluations done by a psychologist, and then we followed up with the school district later when we decided an IEP would help us out. Our state requires a student to meet certain disability categories, and that is all defined (but definitely a slog) on their website. The school district held a series of meetings (also outlined on the website) to see what evaluations we wanted them to do or not do and to hand over information we planned to submit, such as our private psych report. Then they combine all of the information from all the testing (theirs and others) and determine whether the findings trace back to one of their disability categories and/or rise to the level of need required to obtain services. They don't really take capabilities into consideration; just performance (at least in our state). However, you want to know about capabilities for your own information or to seek gifted services later. In our state, you can have an IEP and still be identified as gifted. And the gifted designation stays with the child through their entire school experience, whereas the determination to allow and IEP or Section 504 plan must be revisited every three years (and the actual IEP re-written yearly).

[MistyMountain]

Thank you. It is an alternative public school. They have the same funding as any other schools and need to follow an IEP but they also like to say maybe this school isn't a fit. I know my state doesn't even recognize dyslexia and dysgraphia but I am hoping that info will show the teachers what is going on if that is what testing shows. I know I can request a evaluation through the school but I could not find anywhere what the testing entails and if they used something like the WISC. An OT I was talking to was saying that if you can show a discrepancy between achievement and intelligence that is an avenue that sometimes works for getting an IEP but not OT support. He is extremely percetive. His teacher said he is brilliant and he is way up here but his achievement is way down here showing her hands up high then down low especially in writing. His reading is not the worse in the class as she said but much lower then his perception and reasoning skills. He isn't really reading yet. He is just a beginner. He can understand at a high level and narrate back in detail books at high levels. He understands lots of science and history concepts. He understands lectures for adults on certain topics. He is great at storing information and retrieving it. His teacher said he will not be able to do the writing next year. She asked if dyslexia runs in the family. She confirmed everything I was thinking. She has lots of experience and can read kids well.

 

His teacher also mentioned RTI as an option but I don't know much about that. I guess that is responding once he is failing. They do much more writing next year and the day is longer. I do not know what to do with him because the neighborhood school uses a site word heavy reading method and the intervention is more of time with the method.

[wapiti]

A couple of things - dyslexia and dysgraphia aren't the actual terms used in the DSM (IIRC, the terms are something like reading disorder, disorder of written expression, etc.).  An official diagnosis for either one, or adhd, would need to be made by an ed psych or neuropsych.  It does not sound as though the tutoring place employs such a professional as they do not do an IQ test (which typically needs to be performed by a psych or employee/student of a psych of some kind).  I would be careful about spending money on an evaluation with a tutoring place as it might not get you what you are looking for.

 

Also, as far as IEPs go, different states have different rules.  In my state, a student needs to be performing significantly below grade level, regardless of how high the ability score is.  An ed psych or neuropsych experienced with writing recommendations for IEPs would also likely know whether your ds is eligible for services.

 

I'd probably start with the district special ed office and see about getting an eval through there first.  If the school psych's analysis turns out to be lacking in quality, you could then take the scores elsewhere for a second opinion.  That would be less expensive than full blown private testing.

[Arcadia]

Do you have state testing? That does count as achievement testing for my district. So if my kid has a high FSIQ/VCI/PRI and a low test score in LA/Math, that becomes a discrepancy to ask for further evaluation.

My kids were public school kids and their evaluation would have been observation for at least half a day by the school psych. My school district did testing for dyslexia when a neighbor put in a written request as her daughter wasn't reading three letter words at the end of K.

Both my kids had done the WISC-IV recently privately. My younger has a low processing speed score (point difference of 58 to VCI) and he is the one that looks like a daydreamer. If we put him back in PS, I'll ask for accommodations. We had him tested for ADHD too just to rule out inattentive ADHD. I don't know if his scores would qualify him as 2E but my district does not have any services for gifted.

 

ETA:

When older was in B&M public school, I ask his teachers for accommodations that are easy for the teacher to accommodate and I did not need to put in a formal request. He is the "absent minded professor" kind.

[PeterPan]

You're *paying* for testing and they're not going to do the WISC?  I'd really caution you to slow down.  Everybody raves about stuff they just paid a ton of money for. 

 

No psych is going to run just the WISC.  They have a flat price for evals, and some will have a price for 2nd opinions.  Other than that, you pay by the hour.  I think our neuropsych, top dude in the big city near us, was $210 an hour.  You may end up spending more money with your split than if you just went to the neuropsych.

 

Are you wanting to use this tutoring service?  If you are, then doing evals with them, makes sense.  Are they going to run a CTOPP or other typical psych tool for the dyslexia?  Some places have their own testing tools that won't hold weight.

 

You might want to head to the library and get the NOLO book on IEPs.  RTI is response to intervention.  In other words, because he's a student, you make a fuss, they start RTI.  After he dwells in the land of RTI a while (to see if other methods of typical instruction solve the problem), THEN the teacher might say oh yeah, let's do an MFE (multi-factored eval).  And after they do the MFE, they do an ETR, formally identifying the disability.  THEN they write the IEP.  I'm going through it right now with my ds, and yes when you say reading disorder with a k5er they look at you really funny and say how can you say that...  

 

Are you wanting them to do something for you?  What are you wanting to accomplish?  If you want to use the tutoring service, then it makes sense to do their eval.  If you think he's dyslexic, you should be looking for OG, Wilson, or Barton.  I would find that tutor and ask them what psych/neuropsych they tend to refer to.  If you're not that worried and want to let the school go through their process, you could let them begin RTI.  And if you check into it and decide their RTI is floozy stupidity (which it is in some places), then legally you're allowed to make a formal, written request to evaluate.  But to do that you need to bone up on the law.  Find out who is legally responsible in your state to do evals when you're in a charter school.  Find out who you need to make the formal written request to, what the timelines are in your state, etc.  I'm finding a lot of this is squeaky wheel gets the service.

 

What do you want to accomplish with an IEP?  I'm going for one, both to have documentation and a paper trail for college testing, in case anything happens to me and he needs to go into school, etc., but also because our state offers a scholarship.  Again though, they looked at me really funny saying reading disorder in K5.  Nevermind he's on the older end and had a huge discrepancy.  Technically diagnosis is now, per DSM, absolute.  (As in the numbers must be objectively low.)  

 

The other thing is that there are extra tests a psych can run as he turns 6.  Our psych didn't go all the way to dysgraphia btw with ds, but rather said that his mix of issues is affecting his writing.  He needs OT, which is one of the reasons I'm working on getting the scholarship.  If your ds hasn't had an OT eval, that would be worth some effort on your part.  A full eval by the ps would include OT, and OT for fine motor would probably be a more easy get than a reading disorder label.  I don't' know how you can get to dysgraphia and dance around the need for an OT eval, kwim?  The neuropsych will diagnose it, but you still would need the OT.

 

How much is the tutoring place eval?  If it's $100 and they run a screening tool for the ADHD and do a CTOPP for that price, that could be cool.  If it's $800 (common), you really, really might want to keep looking, seeing what the law would require your ps to do, etc.  You might end up spending a ton of money and realizing you still weren't done.

[Lecka]

You also may want to request in writing that your son be seen for a screening by the school OT.  Say in the letter that the teacher has expressed concerns and what she said.  

 

It is one of those things -- you may want to do both.

 

My older son used to have an IEP and receive OT services at school.  From what they said to me -- OT is not a primary service, so it cannot be what is marked as the reason for an IEP.  There are other things they can mark, though, and then provide OT services.  

 

When my son exited OT services, he still could qualify for a 504 plan.  

 

You may be able to get services from school.  If not, I think the outside eval can help get a 504 plan.  But where I am, if we had a 504 plan, we would be working with the school OT or resource teacher anyway -- it would not just be the classroom teacher, b/c they do not know so much about what accommodation to recommend.  You may get that from your outside report anyway.  But if you want someone at school who is knowledgable about this kind of thing, here it would be an OT, resource teacher, or maybe the school psychologist (though I don't think he does this kind of thing).  

 

If you do not request in writing, here, a teacher's verbal comment to you does not really mean anything is going to happen on the school front.  But if you ask in writing they will at least screen him probably, and if the screening shows concerns to them, maybe you would get to see the OT.  

 

But it is true, there is a gap where kids do need accommodations but do not qualify for IEP services.  But -- maybe your kid will not be one of them.  It will just depend on what happens at the screening probably. 

 

/how it is locally

 

/google IDEA template letters to see what to put in a letter requesting an evaluation.... they do not need to be anything fancy or long.  

 

As far as RTI ----- it matters *what* the RTI is.  It can be something that works well for him, or it can be something that does not work well.  You need details.  You need to know what program it is, google the program to find out if it seems good (if it is a boxed curriculum), how long he does it per day, how small his group is, and *if he is making progress with it.*

 

My son was in RTI in Kindergarten and in the beginning of 1st grade.  Both times it was good, but it was not the kind of thing where *he* would catch up.  It is supposed to be an early intervention to keep kids caught up with their class, it is not supposed to be waiting for kids to fail or something for failing kids.  But the way it can work out -- maybe he is in an intervention group but *he* is the one who does not make as much progress as other kids, and so it is more falling behind for *him.*  But maybe for 2 of the other kids in his RTI group, it is all they need.  

 

Here they put kids into RTI without parent permission or parent request.  In practice, it can be that all the kids go to their reading group and one reading group is doing the RTI stuff with the reading specialist.  Or, they do RTI stuff with the classroom teacher, while the more advanced kids are doing centers.  

 

But just go ahead and ask, find out.  

 

My personal experience was that RTI was not sufficient for my son, but at the same time, I have seen it work for other kids.  I have seen some kids who started out ahead of my son who have fallen far behind him now, too.  (I have worked with him a lot at home with dyslexia or struggling reader reading programs, and he has been in speech and OT at various times.)  But he is in the regular reading group now and has been for a while.  But if I had left him to the school interventions, I do not think he would be where he is now.  He also would have had to go to summer ESY last year and my friend's son made a lot of progress, but also did not like that he had to go to summer school every morning, and they had to plan their summer activities around it (they like to do baseball until late and then sleep in, but ESY started at 8:30 for that son).  (It is Extended School Year and here for academics-only nobody qualifies until 3rd grade -- it seems like it is good, but kids have lost ground by then, that maybe they didn't have to lose.)  (Although to be honest -- when I was tutoring my son in the summer, it was not always his favorite thing either, but at least it was on my schedule and I could have breaks and treats for him, and he didn't keep losing ground..... so it is not really fair to say ESY is bad -- it is what I have done with my son anyway, he just got it as he needed it so he never had to fall behind in school to qualify for it through school.  My younger son receives ESY services and it is a great deal for him, but he has more problems and no trouble getting one-on-one instruction as he needs it, which is difficult for kids who are able to be in a classroom, as unfair as that is.)  

 

It sounds like the teacher you are talking to is good.  I think you need to follow up and talk to her more.  Ask her, if you can, what kind of arrangements they have at the school.  I do think you want to write the request letter and turn it in.  The teacher cannot do as much as a parent, it is really on you to follow up, I think.  But you can do a lot by working together.  

 

I know someone else online whose son is doing Wilson Fundations for RTI (it has a really good reputation) and the teacher is letting her use her materials so that she can work with him more after school.  That is the kind of thing that can go well.  Or you could also work with him at home with other materials (this is what I did).  

 

I think you should ask questions at the tutoring place, too, and ask what materials they use, and then look and see if they are materials that are recommended for dyslexia if he heads in that direction.

 

I think dyslexia materials that I have seen are very high quality and my son has made wonderful progress with them.  They are nothing to be scared of -- just a better way to teach kids to read, who need more steps broken down for them.  

 

My goals are 1) for my son to be able to read without it being a source of stress or something he finds to be difficult (met) and 2) for school to be a positive experience for him (ongoing -- this is something that keeps coming up here and there).  I do not have any long-term goals, I only want things to go well now so that he can have good experiences with learning and be able to learn and participate in school.  That is my kind-of mission statement, though, and I am committed to following through on that.  

[Lecka]

btw -- when you say you don't know what to do with him and he is learning with a sight-word heavy curriculum ---------- you can look for a program to work with him at home.  A popular one is called Barton, you can google Barton reading.  You could try AAR (All About Reading) ---- it might not be the best choice if he needs more help ----- but it could be a very good choice if he just needs to have instruction that is not so sight-word heavy.  I have used Abecedarian (abcdrp.com) with my son -- it worked well for him, but may not be the best choice for everyone.  There are more.  If you think he has less of a problem, you can look at things like AAR, LOE (Logic of English), WRTR (Writing road to reading), and things like that.  

 

If you think he has need of a more heavy-duty program, you could look at programs like Barton.  

 

A lot of people find their kids do well with any phonics-y curriculum that has a good reputation.  Then some try that, and find they need to go ahead and move on to the programs that are saying they are designed for dyslexia, struggling readers, or RTI Level 3.  (RTI Level 1 is regular instruction, RTI Level 2 is kids getting an extra 30 minutes a day of help but able to keep up with the regular curriculum when they get that 30 minutes a day, and RTI Level 3 is kids who are getting one-on-one help and probably pulled-out of regular instruction ------- this is somewhat how it works locally ------ locally you would have an IEP if you were needing RTI Level 3, but not if you were needing RTI Level 2 ------ that would just be "oh, you are in the RTI group," it does not need an IEP.  ------- But this will vary depending on where you live, and how they organize things and do things.  If you can ask you can probably find out, though.)  

 

There are a lot of people here who have after-schooled kids b/c they found the school was not able to meet their needs as well as they would like.  There are also people who have found that their school was using quality programs and they have also after-schooled, but more in step with the school.  

 

I think it is worth looking into.  

 

If you like what the tutoring center is doing, and he is making progress with them, you might go along with their program, too.  But the tutoring center does not necessarily have a good program for him, any more than school will -- either way, you have to check and see and look into what they are doing and how they are doing it, and whether *your* son is making progress, and know that you can choose to ask for different things or look for another tutor, etc, if you do not think your son is making progress and in an appropriate program.  

 

What I wish I had known -- look for actual progress.  Don't look for "well, he is doing what he is supposed to do."  He can do what he is supposed to do, but not make progress.  Or, he can do what he is supposed to do with a different approach or program or whatever, and then he can make progress.  If he is not making progress -- then you want to feel really good about what he is doing anyway and just feel like the progress he is making is what is realistic for him.  But from what you describe ----- you should be looking for real progress in learning to read, he does not sound like someone where it is realistic to think he may not make much progress (aka: he has other skills that sound very good + the teacher is mentioning dyslexia = he should make major progress in reading with the right approach).  From what you have written here -- you want to see him make progress and catch-up progress (making extra progress so that he can catch up to his grade) in reading.

 

[MistyMountain]

I do plan on using the tutoring place. I get 30 sessions partially covered which is a start. They do screen for adhd and they said their results can be used at the school. They screen for a lot of things like dysgraphia and the evaluation is pretty long. They use Barton for the reading tutoring. He is on the border with reading but I think he will struggle with spelling. Several local parents recommended the place.

 

The school he is at now uses Spalding and copy work and dictation next year for writing. I think that is better then the site word heavy reading method and invented spelling writing method the neighborhood school uses. The neighborhood schools scores dropped recently but they are not title 1 so they do not have those funds. I am trying to get an IEP because he will not be able to keep up with the writing next year. I didn't think he would and his teacher this year confirmed it. They have several copy work sentences and spelling tests eventually have twenty words. He is a very slow writer and sloppy writer and copies one letter at a time. They really focus on penmanship and letter formation and for most kids they do well with that for writing. Spalding seems ok for the reading aspect for him. His progress is slow but there is some progress for the first time. AAR wasn't a good fit.

 

A neuropsych in my area costs 4500. I know a mom who got one and they still let her son down. The evaluation is just the beginning. Then I need to figure out what to do. Plus my oldest has a comprehension issue I want to get looked into eventually too. Our budget is limited. His 3 year speech IEP is coming up in the fall. I will request evaluations through the school but I just heard they are not very good but I am not sure what they entail.

[MistyMountain]

OT is not a primary service here either. I talked to an OT and she was the one who said that showing a discrepancy between achievement and cognition is a way to get an IEP. I guess I will just request the school evaluation as a start. He has been screened by an OT and they found issues but he still couldn't get services.

[Lecka]

Here, you would just be able to get 504 accommodations through school, but the OT could still observe him in class and help the classroom teacher (if she needed any help/advice about making the accommodations work).  The OT could not directly work with him to improve his OT skills.  

 

It is nice you have already taken care of that, though, it is something to cross off your list "done."