No School in Two Years

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

 

 

She does run a Christian woman's blog and speaks at different Christian women's retreats and conventions throughout the year. I'm sure her husband has to know, but he seems quite passive and trusts her judgment about all things concerning the children.

 

She has a 10 year old, 7 year old twins, 2 year old, and due any day now with #5. She is definitely a busy mom.

 

Her house is a wreck. She's proud of the fact that it is a mess. In fact she was telling me how they might get dishes washed once a week and they frequently just throw dishes away because they are too nasty to even bother washing. Her children seem to be taken well care of in all other respects.

 

In our denomination (her husband is a minister in the same denomination that my husband is), there is a huge movement that homeschooling is the only way to raise true, faithful, Christians (I do not subscribe to this buy the way. We don't homeschool for religious reasons, but academic ones which makes us the oddballs in our denomination). That would be the reason that she considers them being at home as better for them than the public school. I know that this saying isn't new but the ideas of "I'm trying to get them into heaven not Harvard" is very much a motto among most homeschoolers in my denomination. I always tell people I'm getting them ready for both. They usually look at me like I'm crazy.

 

 

 

 

This is Sunday so I have a confession, y'all.

 

I'm sitting here judging. Oh BOY am I judging.

 

You don't blog/speak/teach and act like a model to other women of your faith if your children go uneducated and you throw away your moldy old dishes because you can't be bothered to wash them. Speck, plank, eye.

 

Yes, I recall Louisa May Alcott's fascination with Harriet Beecher Stowe's happy but fearfully untidy home, with the unwashed children all wailing cheerfully as Harriet dipped her pen in the inkwell, babe at her breast...but THIS is not THAT. I mean, it's nearly that, but not quite.

 

You literally have to write a book that changes the world before I don't judge you on your moldy dishes and your illiterate children that you won't send to school.

 

I'll come back later and be nicer, maybe.

[Chelli]

First:  why is she homeschooling in the first place? To keep her children from the worldly, sinful influences of the public school curriculum and culture.

 

Second:  why is she not considering putting them in school? To keep her children from the worldly, sinful influences of the public school curriculum and culture.

 

 

 

The above answers are what I have gathered from our conversations. 

 

The focus here seems to be on a few things the mom told Chelli, but I'm wondering if Chelli would have guessed that the kids had done no real schoolwork in two years, or if they seem to be like pretty much any other kids their ages. It could be hard to tell with the 2yo, but is the 10yo socially inept? Can he read? Does he know basic math skills? How is his spoken language? Does he have a good vocabulary and use proper grammar?

 

Before we completely condemn the mom, I think it is important to know whether or not the kids are lacking in basic life skills, or if she has actually been teaching them far more than she realizes, even though it may be happening non-traditionally.

 

Since we live in Texas (quite large state), They live about 6-7 hours from us. I've only been around her children a couple of times. They seem to have normal social and speech skills for children their age. As far as I know the older boys are literate , but I didn't witness them reading or writing since we were just hanging out. No idea about math skills either. The only thing I know is the writing a sentence thing and her saying that they don't have to write at home for her. That kind of made my radar go up, but then I know there is a broad range of normal. As far as I know her oldest son has never been tested for any type of learning disability nor does she seem to suspect that he might have one. She truly seems to think that it will all just work itself out.

 

I was in an epic Facebook battle about that, just this past week, along with other WTM'ers. An anti-homeschooling person thought that we had the obligation to either police each other or invite the state to do it!

 

I don't believe I'm responsible for any homeschool other than my own.

 

I wouldn't help the OP's friend because I feel responsible for a fellow homeschooler. Not at all. I would intervene because a family is in crisis and a child is being neglected and I was the one who was told. What kind of people are we if we smile and nod, and turn our back, when this is going on?

 

The least I would do would be to let her know that it's not OK, and to ask what sort of help is required. The most I would do...would depend upon what I learned as I got more involved.

 

*********************************************************************

 

I'll tell you what I don't do, anymore. I don't share curriculum, surf the internet for inspiration to share on FB for her, or for "10 Helpful Hints to Get You Off Your Ass," educate extensively about learning styles, offer to be an accountability partner, offer to teach.

 

Why not? Because I believe homeschooling requires a mom who is already together, or who can already see how to get herself together with some expediency. If she won't research and plan and study and learn, all by her onesie, she doesn't want to do it and won't do it well. She needs to hang up her Homeschool Mom apron and research schools because she is not homeschooling.

 

That's really harsh, isn't it? I just condemned a quarter of the board. Ye gods.

 

Please understand what I'm saying. If a fellow homeschooling parent is on the same journey that I am on, even if she's at the first stop along the tracks and I've already looped the station twice, she is my peer. We can share information and encouragement. I might act as a mentor sometimes, but I see her as my friend. We are peers. Even if her current status is "Potential Trainwreck" she is definitely on the train and advancing.

 

If she won't even order the d@mn homeschooling train from Rainbow Resource and get started unless I pull, prod, poke, flatter, intimidate, encourage, and do it for her, then we are NOT peers. We are not on the same journey. What do I think I'm doing, forcing this reluctant person onto this train?

 

She and her children are better served, and my time is less wasted, if I point out that she seems to be looking for the other line.

 

Tibbie, I just wanted to let you know that I love you. This post is so wonderful. It is reading wisdom like this that really helps ME out as a homeschool mom.

[Catwoman]

This is Sunday so I have a confession, y'all.

 

I'm sitting here judging. Oh BOY am I judging.

 

You don't blog/speak/teach and act like a model to other women of your faith if your children go uneducated and you throw away your moldy old dishes because you can't be bothered to wash them. Speck, plank, eye.

 

Yes, I recall Louisa May Alcott's fascination with Harriet Beecher Stowe's happy but fearfully untidy home, with the unwashed children all wailing cheerfully as Harriet dipped her pen in the inkwell, babe at her breast...but THIS is not THAT. I mean, it's nearly that, but not quite.

 

You literally have to write a book that changes the world before I don't judge you on your moldy dishes and your illiterate children that you won't send to school.

 

I'll come back later and be nicer, maybe.

I'm thinking that things like dirty dishes and the unkempt house may indicate that the woman is clinically depressed and is feeling overwhelmed.

 

Chelli, do you know if she was always like that, or if it is a new thing for her?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Not quite done -- the missed lessons and the heaped up filthy dishes can happen, especially after a birth or during a time of extreme illness or stress. Ideally, the family or church or neighbors step in and help over the temporary hump.

 

But two years, and taking on big giant ministries and letting one's own home falter, that's not the same as crisis coping. That's a decision.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Can we still tag posts? I'm not seeing where to do it, but I'd say this thread definitely calls for the "Tibbie's post on my fridge" tag.

 

 

I agree. It seems odd to me when this happens in conservative Christian families because it seems like an abdication of what they see as the man's role as the head of the family. And it seems odd to me when it happens in liberal families (usually WoW-all-day unschoolers) because I wonder how it feels to work hard all day to support a family who just plays. In all cases it seems unbelievably short-sighted, and it's hard for me to explain it away as a normal family division-of-labor where the children are Mom's responsibility and Dad keeps out of it.

 

 

Yes, I was thinking of that Facebook battle too, and how much the other person would think that this thread proves her point.

 

I wouldn't feel myself obligated to take things over and plan them out for that mother, unless, of course, she paid me my hourly rate. (Which seems unlikely.) I think that in cases like this, homeschooling tips are not helpful. But I would speak some plain truths, and point her towards help - or school - and I would follow up to make sure that things change.

 

I can play WoW all day and skip schooling?!  

 

 

Seriously though, I don't think it is a MYOB situation. Education is important.  As for what I would do, depends on my relationship with the person and the reality of the situation. 

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

Except that this meets the requirements, by our county and state standards for educational neglect so if she shares this with someone who is a legal reporter, someone like me, she is going to end up with a visit from CPS. I do not have a choice.

 

If the OP is not a legal reporter, then it's a judgment call that the OP has the option to make. However, as times goes on, this mother is more likely to encounter a legal reporter who will see the problem because the older a child gets the more obvious the deficit becomes. Better that this woman get a grip now, than later. The longer she goes, the stiffer the penalty. Educational neglect normally does not result in CPS removing children from the home, not at two years of doing nothing. But at four or five years, there is that risk because if she is that adamantly against brick and mortar school, they can't trust her to get her children the help they'll need to catch up and there reaches a place where they can't readily catch up. At 12, they aren't going to make up six or seven years worth of academic material in 2 or 3 years in order to make it to general education and college prep coursework in 9th grade. What they will end up in is special education and then alternative ed. If these are Michigan kids, it's a real problem because 16 year olds can no longer drop out and take the GED, get a job, and go to night school for remedial education at the local CC. Attendance is now mandatory through 18.

 

Ten is therefore a crucial turning point because two more years of this could be the point of no return.

 

Again, MYOB for some of you because you don't have to report. But, if she admitted this to some of us, it absolutely would have to be reported and we would not be bad person for doing it.

 

I'm not sure we have enough facts to determine that she's neglectful by law.  People aren't always accurate when they talk about themselves.  But you make a good point.  If the OP is a mandated reporter, that complicates how much she can help without reporting her friend.  A sticky situation to be in.

[happypamama]

Chelli's latest post suggests to me that the mom needs some help.  It sounds like she has a LOT on her plate with several children, a house to maintain, meals, church responsibilities, etc.  I can relate somewhat.  My DH is gone twelve hours a day during the week, and we have a high-maintenance house and five children, most of whom are very young still.  I drag five children to every appointment or errand.  It's a lot of work.  I can never get my entire to do list done in a day, no matter how much I work at it, and I can only put so much on my husband, in addition to what he's already doing.  I prioritize education and meals and laundry and daily tidying, cleaning less so.  At least I generally get a break on the weekends; DH often gets up with the children and lets me sleep in a bit, plus he's at least here to assist with the children.  This poor woman probably doesn't even get a break on the weekends; her husband's hours during the week may be long and unpredictable, and his weekends are busy.  She gets to care for the children entirely on her own on Sunday morning, and since the family needs to be at church, she can't even say, "Well, we'll do schoolwork on Sunday because DH is at work."  She sounds completely overwhelmed to me.

 

If I were this woman's friend, I'd discuss with her what physical help she needs.  Does she need a teenager to watch the little ones so she can clean or wash dishes?  Does she need to train her children to do some of the housework?  (Who cares if they vacuum perfectly?  At least it's something.)  Does she need a gift of a thousand paper plates?  Does she need someone to work out a cleaning routine, or at least to help her make daily lists of things to accomplish?  Does she need someone to help her find some decent and easy math and reading and basic educational materials that are easy for her to implement?  

 

While I agree with Tibbie's assertion that the mom needs to want to homeschool in order to be successful, she really may just be overwhelmed.  My own attention deficit issues can manifest as indecision and inability to accomplish anything.  (So I make a lot of lists.)  Sending her children to public school may help in some ways, but it also means cramming One More Thing into the evenings, because of homework.  Her children may get educated, yes, but it's not as simple as it sounds.  I think looking into the obstacles in her path would be the first step; then determine whether they can be removed in some way or not, before deciding if public school is the right choice.

[LucyStoner]

maybe it's because I live in hard core unschooling land, or maybe it's because i have very late to read kids who also struggled with writing - but for me this isn't dinging the warning bells you all hear.

 

I know lots of kids who were not reading or writing at anywhere near the 'appropriate' age & if in school they would have been labelled & intervened up the ying yang. But as homeschoolers, they're thriving.

 

And the families are doing stuff. The kids are engaged, have hobbies, the parents read out loud until they lose their voices, there are audio books, the parents scribe for the kids, the kids draw diagrams, or paint pictures or make dioramas of their projects. There is science and art and field trips and visits to museums and learning to grow a garden and learning to start a fire in the woods and soccer and board game weekends etc.

 

Some of these kids are quirky and grow up into quirky teens but they're not neglected.

 

I live in a region where we do not have to meet any state standards either ... total freedom.

 

Elementary reading & math can be taught in a relatively short time ime. High school math takes longer but these kids are nowhere near that. I've never really clicked with unschooling but honestly even I think that a large chunk of Gr1-7 is something you can accomplish in a few months once the kids is around 11-12 --- so LONG as the child has also had tons of real life learning/rich environment prior to that.

 

So I keep coming back to - what is the family doing? What does she want them to be doing? What do the kids want to achieve?

 

 

I am not opposed to unschooling and I personally did no school from 7-8th grades. Still, the outcomes I saw for totally unschooled kids with any sort of deficiency in reading AND basic math were not all that good. I went to high school at PNW hippie high with A LOT of kids that hadn't had any schooling pre-9th or 10th grade. For most, honestly, they had academic deficits they couldn't make up. The kids who entered strong readers left as strong writers with decent educations and we were all accepted to excellent colleges. The kids who were behind in reading and who didn't have basic math skills generally left with no diploma and few prospects. The intervening years have not changed this pattern. I was a later reader (8) myself but the whole better late than early thing, while I agree to an extent, can be taken entirely too far by some.

[Guest]

I'll tell you what I don't do, anymore. I don't share curriculum, surf the internet for inspiration to share on FB for her, or for "10 Helpful Hints to Get You Off Your Ass," educate extensively about learning styles, offer to be an accountability partner, offer to teach.

 

Why not? Because I believe homeschooling requires a mom who is already together, or who can already see how to get herself together with some expediency. If she won't research and plan and study and learn, all by her onesie, she doesn't want to do it and won't do it well. She needs to hang up her Homeschool Mom apron and research schools because she is not homeschooling.

 

That's really harsh, isn't it? I just condemned a quarter of the board. Ye gods.

 

Please understand what I'm saying. If a fellow homeschooling parent is on the same journey that I am on, even if she's at the first stop along the tracks and I've already looped the station twice, she is my peer. We can share information and encouragement. I might act as a mentor sometimes, but I see her as my friend. We are peers. Even if her current status is "Potential Trainwreck" she is definitely on the train and advancing.

 

If she won't even order the d@mn homeschooling train from Rainbow Resource and get started unless I pull, prod, poke, flatter, intimidate, encourage, and do it for her, then we are NOT peers. We are not on the same journey. What do I think I'm doing, forcing this reluctant person onto this train?

 

She and her children are better served, and my time is less wasted, if I point out that she seems to be looking for the other line.

Exactly, precisely my thoughts on the matter. This is one reason why I think the HSing "Pioneers" were often much better at hsing than the newer crop of hsers who have bought the lie that their kids will be wonderful geniuses simply because they don't darken the door of the Evil Government School. Twenty years ago, it was harder to know if homeschooling was legal, much less if it would work; thus, not many people attempted it if their heads were up their asses.

[bettyandbob]

 

She has a 10 year old, 7 year old twins, 2 year old, and due any day now with #5. She is definitely a busy mom.

 

 

Quite a few people mentioned depression, and honestly, I wouldn't have thought of that, but it could be the case. She doesn't act depressed, but I know that most people wear a mask to hid their depression when around other people. I will definitely mention that to her. Her house is a wreck. She's proud of the fact that it is a mess. In fact she was telling me how they might get dishes washed once a week and they frequently just throw dishes away because they are too nasty to even bother washing. Her children seem to be taken well care of in all other respects.

 

 

 

My house is a mess, but I am not throwing away dishes. I think publicly being proud of the mess could be mask for " I am really unable to do the basics" , which would really be pointing to depression. 

 

With a 10 year old and a pair of 7 year olds, basics could get done. Certainly, children those ages could do the dishes, plus vacuum, mop and sweep (daily?, weekly?). But if mom is in a funk and can't get it started the kids aren't going to follow through. 

 

I think Quill said homeschooling is a job and you do have to decide to do it everyday. A person with depression is going to have a hard time following through on this job. 

[SKL]

Yeah, this sounds like sacrificing the kids' futures for the parents' religious beliefs (or status in the church community).  Of course if the kids are actually good readers, well-read, and have math skills, then I take it back.  But yikes.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Maybe the church could intervene. In a Christian denomination it should be understood that teachers are held to a higher standard; not just anyone should teach others. And there are also "requirements" for pastors, elders, deacons, that they have their own house in order. That's a really basic and well-known scriptural concept.

 

I'm not saying the minister should lose his job, of course, but he should be reminded of his duty. And maybe somebody should question whether Mom should be such a leader, with the blog and speaking tours, when her own household is in this state. She might need to be mentored instead of put on a pedestal, helped instead of heaped with more ministry opportunities that she's unwilling to say no.

[LucyStoner]

I'm sure, though, that plenty of mandatory reporters would choose to try to help her rather than to report her.

Mandatory reporters have very little flexibility here. They can try to help, but if they choose not to report their job/professional credentials are on the line. School districts have paid out big time over teachers taking it on themselves not to report.

[Lisa R.]

No regulations. We are in Texas so homeschools are considered private schools. No governmental oversight.

 

--------

Chelli,

This is not exactly true. When you look up laws for Texas homeschooling, you still must use a "curriculum" and teach the basic subjects. Just because we don't have oversight with reporting and portfolios and such, doesn't mean there isn't legal responsibility to teach. While Texas has wider latitude than other states with regard to homeschooling, people can't just not teach at all. She is not just being irresponsible, she is breaking the law by not doing school with her children for the past two years.

 

The fact that she is does public speaking does not speak well of her priorities. Typically, people that are overwhelmed don't have time and energy to put together talks and give audiences insight and advice.

 

Saying nothing and turning her over to CPS are not your only two options. Nor do you have a responsibility to help her plan out her homeschooling. Since she has specifically shared this concern with you, I think it is appropriate and needed for you to tell her frankly that she should not be homeschooling. She is doing her children a disservice and needs to find another educational solution for them.

[Caroline]

I'm sure, though, that plenty of mandatory reporters would choose to try to help her rather than to report her.

Mandated reporters don't have that luxury. They have to report. If they don't report, they could go to jail. Since the OP's husband is a pastor, I am wondering if he is a mandated reporter. He would be in my state.

[Mommy22alyns]

My house is a mess, but I am not throwing away dishes. I think publicly being proud of the mess could be mask for " I am really unable to do the basics" , which would really be pointing to depression. 

 

With a 10 year old and a pair of 7 year olds, basics could get done. Certainly, children those ages could do the dishes, plus vacuum, mop and sweep (daily?, weekly?). But if mom is in a funk and can't get it started the kids aren't going to follow through. 

 

I think Quill said homeschooling is a job and you do have to decide to do it everyday. A person with depression is going to have a hard time following through on this job. 

 

 

ITA.  IMO, she should see a doctor.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I was just telling DH about this thread. He said she's a fraud.

 

That word really shocked me because I'd bet a million dollars she never meant to become a fraud.

 

I told him he really can't imagine how hard it can be for homeschooling moms to get everything done and feel on top of things; we probably aren't always 100% objective, even with ourselves, about how we're doing. Those of us who do achieve and succeed over a decade or more? We would probably admit we're playing averages and have built-in safeguards so we can't get too overwhelmed or too behind.

 

(Or is that just me.)

 

But good intentions aside, this woman is a fraud. That's how the people who hire her to speak would see it, if they knew the truth. That's how the court of public opinion would take it, that's how a judge might take it if they were reported, and that's how her children might grow up to see it in retrospect.

 

"Mom went all over the place telling other women how to raise their kids while our kitchen overflowed with moldy dishes and we never had school."

 

Any of these would be horrible outcomes for the whole family. Probably Mom and Dad are both blind to the reality of their situation. I, and others, can easily come up with the judgment but that's not what they need for starters. They need help.

[momto10blessings]

Maybe you should send her the link to this thread?

Seriously, I don't know what I would do. Tough situation, esp since you are so far away from the family

[FaithManor]

I was just telling DH about this thread. He said she's a fraud.

 

That word really shocked me because I'd bet a million dollars she never meant to become a fraud.

 

I told him he really can't imagine how hard it can be for homeschooling moms to get everything done and feel on top of things; we probably aren't always 100% objective, even with ourselves, about how we're doing. Those of us who do achieve and succeed over a decade or more? We would probably admit we're playing averages and have built-in safeguards so we can't get too overwhelmed or too behind.

 

(Or is that just me.)

 

But good intentions aside, this woman is a fraud. That's how the people who hire her to speak would see it, if they knew the truth. That's how the court of public opinion would take it, that's how a judge might take it if they were reported, and that's how her children might grow up to see it in retrospect.

 

"Mom went all over the place telling other women how to raise their kids while our kitchen overflowed with moldy dishes and we never had school."

 

Any of these would be horrible outcomes for the whole family. Probably Mom and Dad are both blind to the reality of their situation. I, and others, can easily come up with the judgment but that's not what they need for starters. They need help.

I absolutely agree. And sometimes people need to hit rock bottom, ie end up with a social worker telling them that this is unacceptable in order to make the hard choices to do an about face.

 

For the sake of the children, at the very least some people in this church need to say something with the caveat that if she can't get control of her situation and start making some educational progress with her children they will report her. It just simply is not acceptable to continue on because these children have a fundamental right to enough education to be able to be literate, numerate, fully functioning adults.

 

I would report her. But, not everyone has to take that first step. However, something with some teeth behind it needs to be done before it gets worse.

[unsinkable]

Maybe you should send her the link to this thread?

Seriously, I don't know what I would do. Tough situation, esp since you are so far away from the family

Maybe she's already here...

 

Cue ominous music: Dun, dun, duuuuuuuun...

[TammyS]

 

 

"Mom went all over the place telling other women how to raise their kids while our kitchen overflowed with moldy dishes and we never had school."

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I'm not saying that I would report her to anyone (because my standard for that is "do I think the kid would be better off in a foster home"?), but what I keep thinking about as I read this thread is this:

 

http://www.incommunion.org/2006/02/19/mrs-jellyby-and-the-domination-of-causes/

 

[Guest]

Maybe she's already here...

 

Cue ominous music: Dun, dun, duuuuuuuun...

If so, she's heard the truth now...

[MinivanMom]

 

*********************************************************************

 

I'll tell you what I don't do, anymore. I don't share curriculum, surf the internet for inspiration to share on FB for her, or for "10 Helpful Hints to Get You Off Your Ass," educate extensively about learning styles, offer to be an accountability partner, offer to teach.

 

Why not? Because I believe homeschooling requires a mom who is already together, or who can already see how to get herself together with some expediency. If she won't research and plan and study and learn, all by her onesie, she doesn't want to do it and won't do it well. She needs to hang up her Homeschool Mom apron and research schools because she is not homeschooling.

 

That's really harsh, isn't it? I just condemned a quarter of the board. Ye gods.

 

Please understand what I'm saying. If a fellow homeschooling parent is on the same journey that I am on, even if she's at the first stop along the tracks and I've already looped the station twice, she is my peer. We can share information and encouragement. I might act as a mentor sometimes, but I see her as my friend. We are peers. Even if her current status is "Potential Trainwreck" she is definitely on the train and advancing.

 

If she won't even order the d@mn homeschooling train from Rainbow Resource and get started unless I pull, prod, poke, flatter, intimidate, encourage, and do it for her, then we are NOT peers. We are not on the same journey. What do I think I'm doing, forcing this reluctant person onto this train?

 

She and her children are better served, and my time is less wasted, if I point out that she seems to be looking for the other line.

 

Liking this is not enough. Yes! A million times, yes!

[MinivanMom]

Yes, you should say something, Chelli, but I hope nobody thinks we're suggesting that you (or anyone) should feel obligated to go into another woman's home to plan her schedule, organize her closets, or teach her children. Heck, no!

 

 

I think there's a place between MYOB and calling child services. I think there's a place between saying nothing and taking it upon yourself to personally teach her children.

 

 

What I am suggesting is that when a friend comes to you in this way, a door has been opened to ask some heartfelt questions and share a few hard truths. That hard truth may be that she needs to invest in paper plates and a weekly cleaning service. It might be that she needs to cut back on the speaking engagements to spend some time teaching and parenting. It might be that she needs to put her kids in Christian school. It might be some combination of the above. She has opened this door, because she trusts and respects you. Go ahead and say something.

 

[AHASRADA]

Based on further info provided by the OP, I think this mom is extrinsically motivated, and thrives on the respect and recognition her position provides her. I can relate. She knows what she needs to do, but it is so much more rewarding and exhilirating to plan a speech to be given in front of a large group of adoring fans, than to corral a bunch of whiny kids to slog through grammar lessons.

 

She has convinced herself that her "ministry" is more important than a clean home, and even wears her mess as a badge of honor demonstrating that her work is so important, she can't possibly be bothered with such mundane things as dish washing. She has deluded herself into thinking that, simply by keeping her kids home with her rather than in school, she has done her duty in that regard.

 

She needs a major wake-up call.

[fruitofthewomb]

It she is being told by all the people surrounding her that public school is evil, it will all be alright, eternity is at stake, etc then her bad behavior is just being reinforced. She needs someone to stand up & say (gently)-no this is not ok! It's not ok to spend time on conferences while your house falls apart! It's not ok to Ignore school for 2 years! It's just not ok! It sounds like you have a testimony to share-you had a hard time for a bit but your eyes were opened & you changed. Share that with her!

 

but beyond that-I wouldn't knock myself out to help her. You might share how you got the ball rolling when you were stuck in a rut or something but I don't think I would drive 7 hours to help her organize her filthy house just so she can go give a speech to others.

 

I love some of the other advice that's been given. I have actually been really encouraged by this thread. I spent a few years caught up in the 'public school is evil' scene (friends not my church thankfully) and I need to be reminded that they were (and still are) wrong. Their philosophies never sat right with me but they were convincing!

[Outdoorsy Type]

Any chance that she is using hyperbole? Maybe she thinks she is being funny/real to use exaggerations of her failures?

[Chelli]

I'm thinking that things like dirty dishes and the unkempt house may indicate that the woman is clinically depressed and is feeling overwhelmed.

 

Chelli, do you know if she was always like that, or if it is a new thing for her?

 

She's always been like that even before kids.

 

I was just telling DH about this thread. He said she's a fraud.

 

That word really shocked me because I'd bet a million dollars she never meant to become a fraud.

 

I told him he really can't imagine how hard it can be for homeschooling moms to get everything done and feel on top of things; we probably aren't always 100% objective, even with ourselves, about how we're doing. Those of us who do achieve and succeed over a decade or more? We would probably admit we're playing averages and have built-in safeguards so we can't get too overwhelmed or too behind.

 

(Or is that just me.)

 

But good intentions aside, this woman is a fraud. That's how the people who hire her to speak would see it, if they knew the truth. That's how the court of public opinion would take it, that's how a judge might take it if they were reported, and that's how her children might grow up to see it in retrospect.

 

"Mom went all over the place telling other women how to raise their kids while our kitchen overflowed with moldy dishes and we never had school."

 

Any of these would be horrible outcomes for the whole family. Probably Mom and Dad are both blind to the reality of their situation. I, and others, can easily come up with the judgment but that's not what they need for starters. They need help.

 

I agree with this sentiment from your husband. I was actually involved with her for a couple of years in her online ministry. After our talk two years ago where she first confessed her homeschool troubles and some other less than upstanding financial situations I resigned my position in her online ministry because I felt that the way she was presenting herself to others was not accurate, nothing illegal, but not morally upstanding. I don't feel her intentions are malicious, but she is very happy go lucky and shortsighted so she gets herself into some very bad situations.

 

Based on further info provided by the OP, I think this mom is extrinsically motivated, and thrives on the respect and recognition her position provides her. I can relate. She knows what she needs to do, but it is so much more rewarding and exhilirating to plan a speech to be given in front of a large group of adoring fans, than to corral a bunch of whiny kids to slog through grammar lessons.

 

She has convinced herself that her "ministry" is more important than a clean home, and even wears her mess as a badge of honor demonstrating that her work is so important, she can't possibly be bothered with such mundane things as dish washing. She has deluded herself into thinking that, simply by keeping her kids home with her rather than in school, she has done her duty in that regard.

 

She needs a major wake-up call.

 

I think the above might be part of it.

 

It she is being told by all the people surrounding her that public school is evil, it will all be alright, eternity is at stake, etc then her bad behavior is just being reinforced. She needs someone to stand up & say (gently)-no this is not ok! It's not ok to spend time on conferences while your house falls apart! It's not ok to Ignore school for 2 years! It's just not ok! It sounds like you have a testimony to share-you had a hard time for a bit but your eyes were opened & you changed. Share that with her!

 

but beyond that-I wouldn't knock myself out to help her. You might share how you got the ball rolling when you were stuck in a rut or something but I don't think I would drive 7 hours to help her organize her filthy house just so she can go give a speech to others.

 

I love some of the other advice that's been given. I have actually been really encouraged by this thread. I spent a few years caught up in the 'public school is evil' scene (friends not my church thankfully) and I need to be reminded that they were (and still are) wrong. Their philosophies never sat right with me but they were convincing!

 

It wasn't just the two of us in this conversation. Her best friend, who I also know, was with us at dinner. When she was telling me about her homeschool issue her friend was not helpful. The best friend cited a prominent homeschooler who talks about delaying education with boys as proof that what my friend was doing as fine. When my friend told about the Bible class teacher, the best friend rolled her eyes and pointed out that people with kids in ps don't understand what homeschoolers do. When my friend started talking about her messy dishes, the best friend laughed and started sharing disgusting dish stories of her own involving maggots in old pots and pans. Honestly I just sat there aghast on the inside, but trying not to show it. I don't think this is helpful for my friend at all.

[Chelli]

Thanks so much for everyone's thoughts.

 

I will definitely contact my friend since she opened the door for me. I will do the best I can to spur her on for the sake of her children if nothing else.

 

I will be seeing her two other times this year at various functions so I'll make it a point to talk to her in person as well if she's still speaking to me at that point.

 

Thanks again for helping me clarify what I should do.

[Catwoman]

Mandated reporters don't have that luxury. They have to report. If they don't report, they could go to jail. Since the OP's husband is a pastor, I am wondering if he is a mandated reporter. He would be in my state.

The thing is, we have no real evidence that this woman should be reported for educational neglect. We don't know that her 10yo isn't an absolute whiz in math, science, and history. We don't know whether he might be reading at the high school level. We have no clue at all.

 

And honestly, I think mandated reporters probably tend to err on the side of not reporting unless they have a very solid knowledge of the whole situation within a household. I just don't see anyone being arrested and sent to prison because they didn't report a mom for educational neglect based on the information we have in this thread. There simply isn't enough to go on.

 

Do I think this mom needs to change her behavior? From what we have been told about her, yes I do. But would I report her? No, I wouldn't. Not without a whole lot more information than we have right now.

[Catwoman]

She's always been like that even before kids.

 

 

It wasn't just the two of us in this conversation. Her best friend, who I also know, was with us at dinner. When she was telling me about her homeschool issue her friend was not helpful. The best friend cited a prominent homeschooler who talks about delaying education with boys as proof that what my friend was doing as fine. When my friend told about the Bible class teacher, the best friend rolled her eyes and pointed out that people with kids in ps don't understand what homeschoolers do. When my friend started talking about her messy dishes, the best friend laughed and started sharing disgusting dish stories of her own involving maggots in old pots and pans. Honestly I just sat there aghast on the inside, but trying not to show it. I don't think this is helpful for my friend at all.

Yikes. The friend sounds like another winner. I guess it's true about "birds of a feather." :glare:

 

Are you sure you even want to be friends with the woman?

[idnib]

It wasn't just the two of us in this conversation. Her best friend, who I also know, was with us at dinner. When she was telling me about her homeschool issue her friend was not helpful. The best friend cited a prominent homeschooler who talks about delaying education with boys as proof that what my friend was doing as fine. When my friend told about the Bible class teacher, the best friend rolled her eyes and pointed out that people with kids in ps don't understand what homeschoolers do. When my friend started talking about her messy dishes, the best friend laughed and started sharing disgusting dish stories of her own involving maggots in old pots and pans. Honestly I just sat there aghast on the inside, but trying not to show it. I don't think this is helpful for my friend at all.

 

SMH.

 

Sounds like they feed off each other. This is a bad situation all around.

 

And maggots...yikes! My friend and I have a good laugh when we remember when she became overwhelmed (big family) and she got fed up and took all the dirty dishes and piled them into the tub, filling it. Everyone had had the stomach flu and she'd been wiping behinds and doing laundry 24/7 for a couple of days. For her family, these were maybe 2.5 days of dishes. She told me she would only bring them back into the kitchen a few at a time for washing and she got them done over a couple of hours. All she wanted was a little room to work! To me, that bathtub filled with dishes is a funny image that we laugh about. Maggots, not so funny.

[MedicMom]

I am a second generation homeschooler, and I knew several families like the ones you described. I used to complain to my mom that they didn't ever have to do any schoolwork and I had a ton.

 

Fifteen years after graduating from high school, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Nobody stepped up for those kids twenty plus years show and now they are struggling greatly in their adult life.

 

I am not speaking of true unschooling(which is an avenue I am actually considering for my son). I am speaking of actual educational neglect, and this was in a high regulation state.

 

It's sad. It happens. But they have a right to a basic education no matter how it is provided.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wow, I have such a difficult time taking care of my home and school with chronic illness.  But I've never ever had moldy dishes or maggots.  I don't say this as a pat on the back to myself but to point out that you have to let things go for a LONG time for it to get to that point.  

[Carol in Cal.]

If this were a church friend, I would be pretty blunt about what I think God expects of us.

 

He expects us to train up our children to know and love Him and to develop their God-given talents.  And that means that we are RESPONSIBLE for their education.  Period.  We can delegate all or part of it via schools, tutors, or curricula, but we are STILL RESPONSIBLE.  Yes, this is one of those things that we will have to answer to Him for someday, and a key one.  We don't get to just not do it and laugh it off.  You can laugh off dirty dishes as long as you don't eat from them, but not untrained children.  One way or another we have to see to it that this actually happens, that our children actually get educated, that they actually learn morals, that they actually are introduced to God Himself, that they have opportunities and whatever encouragement and help that they need to develop their capabilities and talents.  

 

I would also appeal to her husband's and her reputation.  I would say, look, you can't sluff this off and be good people.  You can't ignore this and consider yourselves to be good Christian leaders.  Because you're not, at that point.  You have to pull this together, and either hire a tutor or put them in school in the meantime.  They MUST be educated--it is not optional--or you are not doing right by them or in the view of God Himself.  And sooner or later everyone will find out that you have been ignoring this key responsibility, and it will make Christianity itself look very, very bad.

[brehon]

The thing is, we have no real evidence that this woman should be reported for educational neglect. We don't know that her 10yo isn't an absolute whiz in math, science, and history. We don't know whether he might be reading at the high school level. We have no clue at all.

 

And honestly, I think mandated reporters probably tend to err on the side of not reporting unless they have a very solid knowledge of the whole situation within a household. I just don't see anyone being arrested and sent to prison because they didn't report a mom for educational neglect based on the information we have in this thread. There simply isn't enough to go on.

 

Do I think this mom needs to change her behavior? From what we have been told about her, yes I do. But would I report her? No, I wouldn't. Not without a whole lot more information than we have right now.

Cat, to your second paragraph, first sentence that's simply not true. Mandated reporters do not wait until they have solid evidence. That's not the mandated reporters' job; our job is to report suspicions of abuse and/or neglect to the appropriate state agencies (in TX, at least, that's either CPS or APS). I have made many reports to both agencies in two decades at my job. Not all of them have been substantiated. Some were and the child(ren) or (usually elderly) adult(s) in question were either temporarily or permanently removed to safer environments; in many cases, families were given resources and counseling to do better. Myriad outcomes not all of which I know about.

 

Failing to report abuse/neglect wouldn't typically end in a mandated reporter's arrest, conviction, and jail time. It easily could lead to being fired and losing whatever license or credential one holds to perform one's job. It's actually fairly black and white in TX state statutes, but may be different in other states. Based on the information in this thread it seems to me that to mom in question is failing to educate her children.

 

Could the kids be learning basic literacy, numeracy, and writing while having a decent, if informal education? Sure. Chelli doesn't think so, though, or at least is uncertain enough that she's planning on talking with the mom in question.

[FO4UR]

Bless you for helping.  You might be scraped over some coals for doing so, but you should do it anyway.  You are gentle & humble, so she will really have no excuse iykwim.

 

 

 

I would spell it out, step by step.  Email her every Friday at 3pm and ask how her week went with an encouraging word. 

 

March:  Sign up the 7yo's for Time4Learning.  Set them up to work for an hour every morning and an hour every afternoon.  Do math/reading/copywork with 10yo while the 7yo's are doing Time4Learning.  If 10yo struggles with reading, start Dancing Bears asap!  If he's reading moderately well, buddy read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe with mom. Tell Dad about the chapter every day when he gets home from work.

 

April:  Keep the 7yo's on Time4Learning. Add in a read aloud for them.  Start 10yo on Apples & Pears Spelling.  (A&P will get a child ready to write an academic paper in 4 books...aprox. 4 years if they do 1 book a year.)  Keep reading the Narnia series together.  Keep going on math.

 

May: Keep going on everything, and add in handwriting for the 7yo's.  Add in SOTW on audiobook for all 3.  10yo needs to write a narration every.single.day.  Even if it's hardly legible, even if it's a measely 2 sentences...he needs to write something.  Narrate SOTW or something else.  Just get something on paper.

 

June/July/August:  Keep going on everything.  No summer has been earned.  Ask the kids to pick an animal/insect/plant to research each week through the summer.  Use the library or the internet.  They can choose how to present their info.  Present to Dad on a specified day, every week.

 

September:  Keep going on everything so far, and add in Apologia Elementary Science for all kids together.  At this point, IF she is doing this, she will have some questions about tweaking things to fit her kids and you can go from there.  If she won't/can't get this far, her kids should seriously go to PS.

 

 

 

 

Dad needs to be involved. He needs to praise the kids for every ounce of effort the put into school!  This woman needs accountability and probably help.  Her dh probably needs to be told how to help the kids do some chores in the evening.  After dinner, every night, Dad can spend some quality time teaching the 10yo and 7yo's how to do dishes, sweep the floor, etc...  If the above doesn't help, there is really nothing that will.

 

 

Shoot, I understand how hard it is to be a Minister's wife, homeschool, etc... Give me her #.  LOL  Her family is her 1st Ministry.  In 20 years, her kids will be grown and THAT will be the time to write and travel and speak.  Right now, yeah...she's a fraud!  I'm a PW too.  I know - there are 1000 things that people want/expect of me each and every week. Perhaps I err in the other direction, but I don't care. I "pretend" like I will get fired if I leave my HSing duties for a social call (which is what a lot of PW stuff amounts to.  No one would ever pull the PW out of a PS classroom for coffee.).  I've gotten a lot of flack through the last few years when I've refused to attend meetings during the school day and/or answer non-emergency calls. (I'm not the unpaid secretary.) The poor will always be among us.  Our children will not.  Dad is also going to have to guard the family homeschool time.  Like, he needs to declare that 9am-3pm is SCHOOL time...to his wife b/c it seems she needs that accountability, but more for the congregation b/c they need to respect that time.  No blogging, no meetings, nothing but school, educational games, the daily poopy diaper, lunch, and so on.

 

 

 

 

And, this my friends, is why I am really skeptical about blogs...even my own.  It's ridiculous to spend so much time and energy showing the world how to be the most awesome wife and mother and then not take the time to be even mediocre at your own area of "expertise."  Ugh.

 

 

 

Help.  But make some boundaries like what I specified above.  Put timed dead lines to things.  The ultimate dead line is the beginning of the school year in the fall.  And, talk to her dh too.

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm assuming this is not a case where a child is severely chronically ill.

 

I'd tell her I will  turn her in if she doesn't get that child schooled somehow within the next week or two. I'd keep it short and matter of fact in tone. Something like this:

 

"Children of school age (whatever that is in each state) are required by law to be schooled.  According to you, you haven't schooled your school aged child in 2 years.  That's admitting to breaking the law.  You're required to obey the law like everyone else.  If you choose not to homeschool her child there are plenty of other options available. If you continue to not school your child I'm morally obligated to report you to the authorities for educational neglect just like I would be morally obligated to report you for child abuse. If you need help finding another alternative, I'll help you, but I won't let you continue to educationally neglect your child without legal consequences. I'll give you a few days to think it over and then I'm going to ask you what you've decided to do.  If you don't follow through with it, I'll report you. "

[Catwoman]

I'm assuming this is not a case where a child is severely chronically ill.

 

I'd tell her I will turn her in if she doesn't get that child schooled somehow within the next week or two. I'd keep it short and matter of fact in tone. Something like this:

 

"Children of school age (whatever that is in each state) are required by law to be schooled. According to you, you haven't schooled your school aged child in 2 years. That's admitting to breaking the law. You're required to obey the law like everyone else. If you choose not to homeschool her child there are plenty of other options available. If you continue to not school your child I'm morally obligated to report you to the authorities for educational neglect just like I would be morally obligated to report you for child abuse. If you need help finding another alternative, I'll help you, but I won't let you continue to educationally neglect your child without legal consequences. I'll give you a few days to think it over and then I'm going to ask you what you've decided to do. If you don't follow through with it, I'll report you. "

Wow. Harsh. :eek:

[Catwoman]

Am I the only one who is more creeped out by moldy dishes in one woman's house and maggots in her friend's home than by the homeschooling situation?

[Reefgazer]

I'd have bought paper plates and plastic utensils before the first maggot could even set up shop.

Wow, I have such a difficult time taking care of my home and school with chronic illness.  But I've never ever had moldy dishes or maggots.  I don't say this as a pat on the back to myself but to point out that you have to let things go for a LONG time for it to get to that point.  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Am I the only one who is more creeped out by moldy dishes in one woman's house and maggots in her friend's home than by the homeschooling situation?

nope

[Catwoman]

Cat, to your second paragraph, first sentence that's simply not true. Mandated reporters do not wait until they have solid evidence. That's not the mandated reporters' job; our job is to report suspicions of abuse and/or neglect to the appropriate state agencies (in TX, at least, that's either CPS or APS). I have made many reports to both agencies in two decades at my job. Not all of them have been substantiated. Some were and the child(ren) or (usually elderly) adult(s) in question were either temporarily or permanently removed to safer environments; in many cases, families were given resources and counseling to do better. Myriad outcomes not all of which I know about.

 

Failing to report abuse/neglect wouldn't typically end in a mandated reporter's arrest, conviction, and jail time. It easily could lead to being fired and losing whatever license or credential one holds to perform one's job. It's actually fairly black and white in TX state statutes, but may be different in other states. Based on the information in this thread it seems to me that to mom in question is failing to educate her children.

 

Could the kids be learning basic literacy, numeracy, and writing while having a decent, if informal education? Sure. Chelli doesn't think so, though, or at least is uncertain enough that she's planning on talking with the mom in question.

I think you should need more than a personal suspicion to warrant reporting a family for abuse or neglect.

[Reefgazer]

I was wondering if her husband may directly be part of the problem (wants his wife to lead women's ministry, wants the kids homeschooled even if wife doesn't want to/can't, refuses outside help for the children or housekeeping, etc...).

If this were a church friend, I would be pretty blunt about what I think God expects of us.

 

He expects us to train up our children to know and love Him and to develop their God-given talents.  And that means that we are RESPONSIBLE for their education.  Period.  We can delegate all or part of it via schools, tutors, or curricula, but we are STILL RESPONSIBLE.  Yes, this is one of those things that we will have to answer to Him for someday, and a key one.  We don't get to just not do it and laugh it off.  One way or another we have to see to it that this actually happens, that our children actually get educated, that they actually learn morals, that they actually are introduced to God Himself, that they have opportunities and whatever encouragement and help that they need to develop their capabilities and talents.  

 

I would also appeal to her husband's and her reputation.  I would say, look, you can't sluff this off and be good people.  You can't ignore this and consider yourselves to be good Christian leaders.  Because you're not, at that point.  You have to pull this together, and either hire a tutor or put them in school in the meantime.  They MUST be educated--it is not optional--or you are not doing right by them or in the view of God Himself.  And sooner or later everyone will find out that you have been ignoring this key responsibility, and it will make Christianity itself look very, very bad.

 

[Catwoman]

Wow, I have such a difficult time taking care of my home and school with chronic illness. But I've never ever had moldy dishes or maggots. I don't say this as a pat on the back to myself but to point out that you have to let things go for a LONG time for it to get to that point.

:iagree:

 

Where are these women's husbands while all of this is happening??? Why wouldn't they clean up if their wives weren't doing it?

 

I blame the husbands and wives equally in cases like these.

[Tsuga]

Am I the only one who is more creeped out by moldy dishes in one woman's house and maggots in her friend's home than by the homeschooling situation?

 

It kind of seals it for me--these women are in over their heads. Nobody was meant to do it alone. I don't believe that. Before I though, who knows, maybe there's a lot of Bible work, maybe she's in denial of her son's learning disability, who knows. I'd help but I'm not assuming mental illness (depression) or neglect.

 

The dishes thing--I get it. Oh, I GET it. I have been alone, I have let the dishes go for a few days. Lucky for me, I got through it and I got the dishes done. But I've been there.

 

But it is NOT a good place.

 

Also, as for the dad stuff--I have been married to a head-of-the-family man, traditional, military, deployed. He knew what the kids were learning. "Show me what you did in school today, baby girl." "Play me a song on your instrument, baby girl." "Read this word for daddy." Etc. Traditional is NO EXCUSE.

 

This couple is in a strange place from what I'm reading here.

 

 

 

refuses outside help for the children or housekeeping

 

My ex-h used to offer this, but I knew that if I had help, he'd use it against me. He'd use it like, "You can't even manage X, Y and Z! Why should you do A as well?"

 

:(

 

I feel for people in that situation.

[kiana]

I think you should need more than a personal suspicion to warrant reporting a family for abuse or neglect.

 

But that's not how mandated reporter works. They're supposed to report suspicion and let the investigators determine whether or not it's occurred.

[Reefgazer]

If I was this homeschooling mom, I would tell you that I had set the kids up with an online school and then quietly shut you out of my life; and probably clam up about my schooling issues to anyone else.  Then those kids wouldn't have a prayer of getting any assistance, from anyone.

I'm assuming this is not a case where a child is severely chronically ill.

 

I'd tell her I will  turn her in if she doesn't get that child schooled somehow within the next week or two. I'd keep it short and matter of fact in tone. Something like this:

 

"Children of school age (whatever that is in each state) are required by law to be schooled.  According to you, you haven't schooled your school aged child in 2 years.  That's admitting to breaking the law.  You're required to obey the law like everyone else.  If you choose not to homeschool her child there are plenty of other options available. If you continue to not school your child I'm morally obligated to report you to the authorities for educational neglect just like I would be morally obligated to report you for child abuse. If you need help finding another alternative, I'll help you, but I won't let you continue to educationally neglect your child without legal consequences. I'll give you a few days to think it over and then I'm going to ask you what you've decided to do.  If you don't follow through with it, I'll report you. "

 

[Catwoman]

I was wondering if her husband may directly be part of the problem (wants his wife to lead women's ministry, wants the kids homeschooled even if wife doesn't want to/can't, refuses outside help for the children or housekeeping, etc...).

He certainly shares responsibility for both the homeschooling and the condition of the home.

 

He is part of the problem simply by not doing anything to remedy the situation. Who could turn a blind eye to moldy dishes??? :ack2:

[Catwoman]

But that's not how mandated reporter works. They're supposed to report suspicion and let the investigators determine whether or not it's occurred.

I understand that, but I do think there should be some grounds for that suspicion. A few people seemed to believe the mom in this situation should be reported, even when all we knew about her was that she told Chelli she hadn't done school with the kids for two years. My feeling is that you don't report someone on the basis of a few sentences.