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Help me choose history for learning disabled 10 year old boy - POE or HOD


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Help me choose between Heart of Dakota and Trail Guide to Learning.

 

My son has attention issues and is somewhat of an auditory and hands on learner.  He has much better comprehension when he reads something himself than when I read it aloud to him, although he still needs me to supervise and talk to him every paragraph or so to make sure he is comprehending.  He has language comprehension issues.  He has much trouble with narration but likes questions. I need to read aloud some to him because he cannot handle reading all of the books needed himself.

 

He despises Story of the World, especially when listening to the audio CD.  He still doesn't like it when I read it.

 

I like Trail Guide to Learning because it has all the copywork, etc. spelled out for me and I just hand him the sheet.  He cannot copy directly from a book.   I like that the topic changes every 6 weeks and several books hit the same topic.  I am a little concerned about some of the books making up conversations rather than just stating facts about historical people and events.  I like historical fiction but not when it has a lot of made up conversation.  I like that it integrates spelling, etc.   I prefer the look of POS over POE because we have done a lot of the same material, but I think POS might be better for a later grade.

 

I also really like the look of Heart of Dakota and I love freedom to choose my own books and work them into the guide.  I am particularly interested in the history and the reading portions of the program.

 

Which one is more difficult?  Which one is more friendly to an inattentive child?  Which works better with a 4 day week of reguar school with science only on Fridays?  Can you spell out the differences in the two programs to me?

 

I do not plan to combine much of anything with his brother.

 

Thank you.

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Well, I've never used HOD, so I can't compare the two, but I did use TGL:POS, although not all the way through.  I am linking a review I did for another poster.  It might answer a few of your questions.  Best wishes!

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/507747-trail-guide-to-learning-series-for-learning-challenged/?hl=%2Btrail+%2Bguide+%2Blearning&do=findComment&comment=5534695

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I have the first 3 HOD guides (little hands, little hearts, & beyond) & they are 5 days a week but I am pretty sure that HOD switches to 4 days a week in bigger hearts.

 

HOD promotes short lessons. So 15 min on writing, 5 on memory work, 15 on history read aloud, etc. So that might be good for your kiddo.

 

Which HOD guide are you looking at? I might be able to give you more details about the set up if it's a guide I have.

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I see on the sample that Bigger is scheduled for 5 days but it looks like the 5th history day might be more of the timeline/notebooking.  Since he is 10 and will be 11 next year, we could probably add that to 1 day of history.  It is easy to adjust the other items and we will use our own math so I think I could make it work with a 4 day week.

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When you say he is learning disabled, you mean he has a diagnosed LD in addition to his ADHD?  As far as I know, ADHD is not considered an LD.  I'm just wondering if there's more going on (dyslexia, CAPD, whatever) from another thread that we don't know about?

 

Anyways, since he's 10 and having what sounds like issues with auditory (as the single input), working memory (dictation), etc., have you thought about videos?  Curriculum is way over-rated.  I'd get a pile of History Channel dvds from the library or stream them through prime/netflix/hulu and put your focus on building his skills and getting him some hands-on.  You can do stuff for working memory and cognitive, which will help both the dictation and the overall attention.  He'd even be a good candidate for Cogmed or PACE (Learning RX) given his age.  They'd cost money, but you might get dramatic shifts.

 

Both my kids have ADHD labels.  My ds adds the learning disabilities as well.  For him, I use videos a lot and without apology.  If your dc happens to learn that way, I encourage you to do it. There are lots of ways to learn and there's nothing to say that learning has to go through his weakest modalities to be proper.  

 

The rule of thumb with reading is that they learn to read before they read to learn.  If he's still at the stage where he's struggling to comprehend, he really doesn't have anything left (working memory, energy, etc.) to do the additional step of learning the material.  Using videos bypasses that entirely.  It's not that you don't care about learning through reading, but you can get there *eventually*.  

 

Have you considered the VP self-paced online history?  Very, very enjoyable, interactive, moderate reading.  It *might* work for him.  You could ask how it's going with OneStep's older dc, who seems to have auditory issues.  My dd enjoyed the VP self-paced history.  For my ds, I guess we'll see.  He has a social delay and just isn't ready.  Or maybe he is and I underestimate?  I guess I could sit with him and help him do things.  I let him watch History Channel and I got him the BJU Heritage Studies.  I'm not suggesting you do that, because it can actually be a nightmare with ADHD kids if it doesn't fit.  It just happens to fit him really well for some reason.  He's been doing the gr 2 and we pause, talk, do the activities together.  Dyslexia Advantage by the Eides changed my perspective on how my dd thinks, why she enjoys what she enjoys.  Even though they're now diagnosed separately, dyslexia and ADHD used to be lumped together as minimal brain dysfunction.  You might read across labels and see if you get ideas.  And if you haven't had formal evals to check for dyslexia, CAPD, etc., you might consider it.  

 

Sorry none of that was what you wanted.  HoD never called to me, so I never used it.  It's not really the up front structure a 10 year with adhd is ready for, but I might be missing the vision for how you make that happen.  He might appreciate daily checklists for his work.  I have some of the Trail Guides, and that's a really open-ended way of working.  I've tried using them with my dd and we never finish.  Anything that takes exhorbitant amounts of effort for me to keep on-track is frustrating.  Open-ended is frustrating.  But my kids are walking entropy.  When I've used those formats with her (research to answer questions) it just becomes this time pit and then I'm all frustrated.  But it's definitely a great, connected method, that's for sure.  Just goes back to the question of whether reading to learn is a good next step for him.

 

If your gut says one of those fit him, go with your gut.  

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I think you are getting good feedback. I am curious about the copying from a book--lots of reasons for that to go poorly, but have you had a vision evaluation, particularly one that looks at developmental vision issues like eye teaming and eye tracking?

 

One of my kiddos (both ADHD of one kind or another) has trouble copying from the board, but from a book is okay (fatiguing, but he's only 7). His problem with the board is that even with glasses, his acuity is not great for his age. There could be something going on to keep your son from being able to copy efficiently that isn't attention-related.

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How old is your ds?  I'm guessing that you've looked at the placement chart on HOD's website?  That is so key in proper placement versus studying a particular time period.  I've used HOD in various forms over the years for some of my kids.  I love it because it is all planned out, but, alas, when you have a child with LDs, it can be a little challenging but doable.  In the Bigger guide Mom is still the reader versus the child (the child doing much of the reading begins to happen in the later half of the Preparing guide).  There is narration but it is not written in the Bigger level - at least not until later on in the year.  it is a 5 day week and I can't remember off hand if there is reading for history on the 5th day.  There are assignments of recreating maps from books (something my one son does not enjoy) and usually some type of weekly "craft" for the week.  The biggest challenge to Bigger's program is whether or not the child will sit and listen to the Eggleston book.  There are no drawings, the wording is shall we say "old fashioned."  It is short and to the point.  There are no questions to ask the child as compared to a SOTW guide.  I would have to say that the Bigger level is probably the least visual of the guides.  There is also a scheduled read-aloud time that correlates with the history.  As for reading, HOD uses the DITHOR program that they developed/designed.  I like it because it doesn't require a set book but rather you pick a book from the particular genre.  HOD does sell a book set that you can use but you still have a lot of flexibility.  There are flow charts, maybe a book cover activity (depending on the level) but the child really works through the assignment using the book.  I've not used it for a younger child but I did have a 7th grader work through the 7/8 book and it was a great experience.  DITHOR can be used totally separate from the HOD programs. 

 

Again, placement is so key with success using HOD.  The child's writing ability is key.  In your case, the challenge of the Eggleston books is something to consider.  I've got a visual/RB learner and the books just didn't hold his interest.  He couldn't make a connection with it.  I wonder if Beautiful Feet might be a better fit?

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Thank you everyone for the good and helpful feedback.  I especially like your post Oh Elizabeth.  I hesitated to post this because there are so many similar type posts, but I appreciate all of your input.

 

I wasn't super clear about my son, but the doctors say he is not ADD or ADHD, but rather on the edge of the autism spectrum.  

His diagnosis is Sensory Processing Disorder, Mixed Receptive-Expressive Language Disorder, Pervasive Developmental Disorder.

 

His primary issues are listening comprehension and distractibility, especially with sounds.  And Math is like Greek.  Touch Math has done wonders for him, but (mixed happiness and sigh) he is finished and we have to move on to something else.

 

He tends to like books that are factual and has a hard time following stories or a developing plot.  Favorite history year ever was just reading a bunch of short biographies on early american settlers and books like If You Lived in the time of . . . .  He reads well and has a large vocabulary.  He can use advanced words correctly in context but cannot tell you what they mean when asked.  He has strange language gaps and will ask me what really basic words mean at times.  I think when he is more willing to read independently, his comprehension will increase.

 

Copywork is hard because he cannot visualize where to put the words, how much room it will take or what size is appropriate.  Lines on handwriting paper seem to have no meaning to him.  He wants to print in all capitals all the time and has to constantly correct that.  He wants to read the whole sentence and write the whole sentence without looking back.  He cannot copy from a book to a page so I copy sentences in a notebook and he writes below it.    He is a natural speller and his handwriting is fairly neat for his age.  He wants to start at the bottom with all of his letters.  If I ask if he remembers how to correctly make a letter, he says yes and shows me that he does.  But he never chooses to write them the correct way.  If he copies from a book, he wants to make the numbers and letters exactly as they appear, in the exact font and not like he learned them in handwriting (the letter a, number 4, etc.).  And he never stops talking.

 

Anyway,  thank you to everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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My ds has strange things with his comprehension, and this will sound weird but what I'm doing is sort of a multi-pronged approach.  The BJU Heritage Studies online has very progressive, careful instruction.  You could pick a grade-leveled text, possible a grade or two back if necessary (from whatever publisher you like) and do it with him, having him read and discuss every page.  That would be his work to fill in holes in comprehension.  If reading books together like "If You Were There" or whatever lets you do that, that's cool.  Something to fill in those holes and work on comprehension.  Then things on his level like the History Channel videos, Pawn Stars, whatever he likes.  At least that's what I'm doing with my ds.  I like that the Heritage Studies gives us a chance to discuss things he doesn't seem to get (social stuff, etc.).  It seems to stick with him and the pace is slow enough that he can keep up.  He finds it very memorable and talks about the lessons.

 

Has he had OT and ST?  It will be interesting to see what happens when he gets fresh evals at some point.  I've read a percentage of the pdd-nos kids go down to ADHD and a percentage go up to autism, just varies with the dc.  I'm surprised they didn't already give him that label, from what you're describing.  You might as well assume they will and use the techniques.  (structure, clear expectations, cognitive therapies for working memory, etc.)

 

Have you seen LitWits?  They have free info for a variety of books.  Might give you a way to dig in on books and work on that comprehension.  Another poster (Jennifer....) has used them.

 

No help on the math, but do you know how to do a site search?  You do your terms and then site:welltrainedmind.com  You do that in your google bar and it will search for those terms and limit it.  So you could search for Touch Math, see who used it, then see what they went to next if it's an old approach.  

 

Since your favorite year of history ever was just reading, you might want to look at TruthQuest!  Sounds like he's a great candidate for it, and you could get a kit or projects from Hobby Lobby or whatever you like to add hands-on.  The TQ guides have fabulous, fabulous booklists, and you might find they give you the confidence to give yourself permission to do history that way for a long time.  See the thing I was going to say to you is that, at least here, once I find a method that WORKS I need to stick with it.  I might change up the precise materials, but the METHOD of using the materials should stay the same when we've found a method that works.  So that's my advice.  If you have a history method that worked in the past, do it and don't let a curriculum make you feel it's invalid.  Things can be unusual because they BALANCE over the whole of our homeschooling.  It doesn't MATTER if we decide not to write in history (honest!), because we really can write in other subjects.  This whole idea that there's only one way, the complete way, or we've flopped is just too much.  View your homeschooling as a whole.

 

Sounds like you're very aware of his issues.  I hope you find an option you and he both like!  :)

 

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After reading about his favorite year ever I'd suggest Truthquest, also.  There is not a fluency to the readings in the Bigger year.  I found myself going - "when was this described."  It skips around.  My youngest in Right Brain/Visual spatial and loves reading books like If You Lived and there is another set of books for the older set (only a few so far, though) called Nathan Hale's Hazardous Tales.  I know you are most likely looking for something that is all put together/ready to go but many times those kids with LDs and other challenges just don't fit well within those programs.  I don't have any great suggestions.  I wonder if he's doing well with reading (most of us with LD kids find that skill a big challenge) then you might give Sonlight a look. 

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You might consider joining the Moms of Kids on the Autism Spectrum social group--it's fairly new. I don't think I've seen you post over there--my apologies if I don't remember a post of yours. It includes kids with PDD-NOS.

 

I am not that familiar with the programs you are talking about, but you might also look at samples for Notgrass' America the Beautiful. It has daily readings. It's a five-day schedule, but it stops a few weeks shy of a whole year, I think, to give some padding. The books are very attractive. My son (10 with PDD-NOS too). used it last year and loved it. We read most of the literature, but we used the text only for history--we didn't do the writing. We used the primary source book (We the People, I think it's called), and we used the timeline and mapwork. We didn't use the worksheets, but your son might like them. You should be able to tell from the samples if the worksheets would help your son with comprehension. The timeline has portions to be filled in by the student, so that might make some difficulties with copying. Anyway, I don't know if it would be a good fit for you, but it's for 5-8th, so maybe one of these years it will be something worth considering. All of the various books are things you can use or just not use in addition to the text.

 

My son's ADHD more recently has shown up in increased impulsivity, but he stims verbally (and listens to all kinds of sounds to stim as well). It's really noisy, and he drives people bonkers. Meds have helped with the noise and talking. We weren't sure where ADHD started and stims ended, but it's now clear in his case that they are bound up together. So, you may be having more ADHD than you think, or the distraction could just be because it's listening to verbal information is not a strong point for him. My son is a good auditory learner, but he is very distracted by sounds and was so even as an infant. It can be very hard to do things with the constant "what's that?" question about noises most people don't notice--thankfully, he's less apt to do that now unless he hears a sound that worries him.

 

Does your son type? I think it's cute that he wants to copy things just like a typeface, though I am sure that is very inefficient. Maybe typing would accomplish what he's trying to do there. My son is that way with voice inflection--if he meets someone with an accent, we hear it for weeks. :-)

 

While my son has good listening comprehension, he has some pitfalls with language too--anything really abstract or social in a story can sometimes go over his head unless we talk about those points. We used Inference Jones to help with that (warning--it was frustrating at first), but Critical Thinking Company has other reading comprehension-based stuff that might help. All of their stuff is short, and it's pretty cut and dry, unlike some other reading comp programs we experienced. They even have numbered sentences so that you can go back and refer to specific things when you are answering questions. They also have some thinking skills books that might be appealing, and you use graphic organizers to apply them to a variety of subjects. The Reader's Handbook has a lot of explicit teaching on these sorts of things as well, and they cover plotlines and such. You might also check Scholastic's teacher books for mini lesson on comprehension and plot--a friend of mine just showed me her list of Scholastic books that she's purchased during Dollar Days (digital downloads of books for $1 is pretty low risk). They have a lot of that kind of stuff. You might use really easy books to talk about plot (good quality picture books). Honestly, some people struggle with this forever--I eventually realized that is why my MIL doesn't like fiction or movies unless she is motivated because she's heard about a particular person or something. It's a lot of work for her otherwise. Another option might be to read abridged books before reading full versions, and map out the plot on a chart to keep track of things and to refer to while reading longer books. Series books can also help because the plot is often pattern-based.

 

Generally speaking, I find that my son learns tons of stuff through context, but he has to see the same thing in about a million different contexts to really "get" the whole thing. He really has to see every facet of something sometimes before he starts to think of it in a more typical manner. Doesn't matter if it's math or punctuation. If he has only part of the story, he will plug those details in to some kind of framework, but they may be in odd places until he has more information to work with. Or, he will fail to recognize something he knows when it's placed in a new context. I don't know if your son is that way, but it sounds like he might be a little bit.

 

Anyway, lots of rambling. HTH

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http://greatsource.info/GreatSource/pdf/RH_Research_Base_1104_print.pdf

 

Maybe this one does. It's from this page: http://greatsource.info/store/ProductCatalogController?cmd=LP&nextPage=GreatSource/gsMainTemplate.jsp?displayMainCell=researchefficacy.jsp

 

I don't know if it's a great piece of information, but I wanted to post it in case I forgot after reading it.

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