Does anyone delay math instruction until age 8?

[stm4him]

Some of the programs I am looking at don't start until third grade so I am wondering if it is really necessary to do much before then. They seem to start with basics but move quickly so I am unsure if a child could keep up if they have not worked with much math before that.

[FO4UR]

I think those programs probably assume that the child is doing plenty of real-life math.  They are counting money, telling time, playing games that require add/subt/mult/div skills, etc...

 

I'm not comfy going that loosey goosey.  I also don't like much wb math K-2nd.  It sours the appetite.  

 

K-2 math needs to be very hands-on, conceptual, interactive and fun. 3rd grade is when a child can sit with a wb and work through a problem set without killing all math joy ime.

 

 

 

[Ellie]

Some of the programs I am looking at don't start until third grade so I am wondering if it is really necessary to do much before then. They seem to start with basics but move quickly so I am unsure if a child could keep up if they have not worked with much math before that.

 

No, it isn't necessary.

 

I never found anything I liked for math; neither dd finished a math text before they were, oh, 12ish.

[Hunter]

I think math CAN wait. It does in some European countries. School starts at 7 and math at 8.

 

Strayer-Upton and some other math TEXTBOOKS that start at grade 3 were just when the TEXTBOOKS started, especially for children that were writing their numbers in SLANTED CURSIVE, and were not expected to compose, rather than just copy and take a little dictation until 3rd/4th grade. The READERS and language books often contained math.

[PentecostalMom]

Have you read Teaching the Trivium?

[Hunter]

No, it isn't necessary.

 

I never found anything I liked for math; neither dd finished a math text before they were, oh, 12ish.

 

I believe that students that start math when they are old enough to talk and read about math, never develop some bad habits and attitudes about math. Spoon fed math that cannot be explained in WORDS to children isn't the most efficient way to teach math.

[Χά�ων]

I delayed math until 3rd grade. M son is in 5th and bored with how repetitive math is. A lot of focus of review multiplication division addition and subtraction. He is able to learn new concepts and does not need the insane amount of review. He could have started prealgebra this fall. I did not want to rush it. He is starting pre algebra in the fall. I think starting to young is part of the reason for the insane amount of review needed. 

[deerforest]

We pretty much just did living math until DD started BA when it came out 3 years ago in March when she was in 2nd.

 

We started pre-algebra a few weeks ago. So, I feel we basically finished elementary math in 3 years. We are using AoPS pre-algebra and enjoying it much more than I expected.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My hesitation would be if there is a remote possibility your kids could go to elementary school at some point.  I don't do everything with that in mind, but some things.  And I don't mean follow what the schools do exactly.  I just can't imagine putting my kid into a school in 3rd grade with no prior math instruction.  Although if you are asking whether or not one needs a specific book and curriculum, no I don't think so.  You can cover a lot of the basics without that.

 

 

[Ellie]

My hesitation would be if there is a remote possibility your kids could go to elementary school at some point.  I don't do everything with that in mind, but some things.  And I don't mean follow what the schools do exactly.  I just can't imagine putting my kid into a school in 3rd grade with no prior math instruction.  Although if you are asking whether or not one needs a specific book and curriculum, no I don't think so.  You can cover a lot of the basics without that.

 

My older dd went to school for sixth grade. We had not completed a math text before then, although we had poked at basic arithmetic and whatnot; she still managed to get a B in the six weeks she was there (long story).

[maize]

I delay formal math until 8 or 9, then go quickly through basic concepts. My kids have done well with that, it doesn't take long to teach an older child first and second grade math, they pick up a lot informally and have the brain maturity to understand arithmetic.

 

My 11 year old started formal math instruction three years ago and is now working through prealgebra (AOPS and Jousting Armadillos); my 9 year old did a quick overview of the early grades with MM and is now doing Beast Academy.

[abacus2]

I think as long as they have the concept of counting, the concept of adding and subtracting, and can write their numbers, jumping right into age appropriate curriculum at age 8 is doable.

[Hunter]

I found this in an old document I saved. They might be useful to someone.

 

Year 0

 

Teach tally marks instead of figures. 1-5

 

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 107-110

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

 

Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey pg.11-15

http://books.google.com/books?id=MQMAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Number+Primer+1909+by+M.+A.+Bailey&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book New Jersey Edition 1913 pg. 7-12

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=editions:7KUrtxiHhpAC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 1 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnUoAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

***************************

Year 1

 

** First half **

Teach tally marks instead of figures. 1-10

 

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 107-114

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

 

Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey pg. 11-19

http://books.google.com/books?id=MQMAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Number+Primer+1909+by+M.+A.+Bailey&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book 1913 New Jersey Edition pg. 7-12

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Hamilton’s+Arithmetics+First+Book+1913+New+Jersey+Edition&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 1 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnUoAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

 

** Second half **

Start teaching slanted script figures and words. 1-10

 

A Primary Arithmetic and Teacher’s Manual 1875 by Edward Olney pg. 1-12

https://archive.org/details/aprimaryarithme03olnegoog

 

Work and Play 1912 by George Wentworth pg. 7-24

https://archive.org/details/workandplaywith00smitgoog

 

Progressive Course in English Teachers’ Manual by E. J. Hoenshel pg. 13-14

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zn8SAAAAIAAJ&dq=Progressive+Course+in+English +Teacher’s+Manual&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book 1913 New Jersey Edition pg. 7-12

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Hamilton’s+Arithmetics+First+Book+1913+New+Jersey+Edition&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 1 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnUoAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

 

*****************************

Year 2

 

** First half **  0-20, ** Second half **  0-100

 

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book 1913 New Jersey Edition pg. 7-30

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Hamilton’s+Arithmetics+First+Book+1913+New+Jersey+Edition&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 2 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=L8IBAAAAYAAJ&oe=UTF-8

 

Work and Play 1912 by George Wentworth pg. 25-110

https://archive.org/details/workandplaywith00smitgoog 

 

 

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 115-124

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

 

Ray’s New Primary Arithmetic 1877 pg. 5-40

http://www.ronpaulcurriculum.com/public/department121.cfm

 

*********************

Year 3

 

Strayer-Upton chapters 1-3

 

**********************

 

Year 4

 

Strayer-Upton chapter 4-5

[Hunter]

MacVicar's Teacher's Manual. Lots of slate work.

https://books.google.com/books?id=SNgYAAAAYAAJ&dq=first+reader+arithmetic&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[SparklyUnicorn]

My older dd went to school for sixth grade. We had not completed a math text before then, although we had poked at basic arithmetic and whatnot; she still managed to get a B in the six weeks she was there (long story).

 

I don't know.  I really get the impression things have changed.  Looking at typical math textbooks now, they are covering even some basic algebraic concepts in 4th grade. 

 

But now you have me wanting to know the story.  I have crazy moments where I think I might put my kids in school  Usually when I'm at the end of my rope. 

[Hunter]

And of course we have Grube's method.

https://archive.org/details/grubesmethodofte00seelrich

 

I know there are readers with arithmetic in them, but I just can't find them quickly this morning and I need to go run some errands.

[Ellie]

I don't know.  I really get the impression things have changed.  Looking at typical math textbooks now, they are covering even some basic algebraic concepts in 4th grade. 

 

But now you have me wanting to know the story.  I have crazy moments where I think I might put my kids in school  Usually when I'm at the end of my rope. 

 

And yet it seems that American children's basic arithmetic ability doesn't seem to be improving, does it? Also, sometimes textbook publishers will include one or two problems of this or that and so they can say they "covered" this or that concept, but truthfully, that concept was just stuck in the text to satisfy some sort of...I don't know what, but there wasn't any real instruction, because 9yo really aren't old enough to understand basic algebraic concepts. Most of them are still working on basic arithmetic, which the textbook publishers don't do a very good job...stop....stop...stop...

 

When my older dd was 11, I could tell she rilly, rilly wanted to go to school. We qualified for a performing arts magnet school, and I went there one day and took the tour and the performing arts part was amazing. I figured I could fill in the gaps if there were any academic short comings, being an experienced homeschooler and all that. ::snerk:: So dd started sixth grade, and did very well, but after six weeks I withdrew her because the academics were so poor. She wishes I had left her there, but I just couldn't.

[Hunter]

What brick and mortar pretend to do and what they REALLY do are two different things.

 

I've gotten good at pretending, too, if I need to.

 

I decided to skip my first errand and stop and eat. so I'm still here. Maybe i'll look for those readers while I eat.

[Hunter]

Hazen's First Year Book

A reader that includes arithmetic as well as art and music.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BnkXAAAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[sweetpea3829]

You know what...I think it depends on the kid. (of course, right?)

 

My oldest son, he has been doing just fine in math since he was very young, and is quite accelerated.  

 

Then there is DD9 who has dyscalculia and I *could* have waited to see if she outgrew some of those issues, but chose not to.  And I'm glad I didn't...because she is doing really well right now and has come a long way.  I think if I had waited, I would have just delayed her progress even further.  

 

Then there is second DS...he is turning 7 soon.  With him, I'm beginning to wonder if he would have benefited from waiting a year or two before beginning Singapore 1.  He did just fine in Singapore K, but has really struggled with math this year.  So much so, that I moved him to MUS, which is a FAR easier curriculum.  He's even struggling with that.  

 

I have already decided to back way off and next year, group him with our youngest DS, who will be 6 soon.  But I think he would have been better off, overall, if we had just waited.

 

The problem for us is that we have standardized testing requirements.  Luckily, not until 4th/5th grade...but still.  I can't let them fall *too* far behind.  

[Tanikit]

I do not think that Math can wait until grade 3 - in the real world that would not be possible. Workbook style math could possibly wait forever or even never be done. Very young children need to have things counted for them, need to see shapes and play with blocks and patterns, talk about time and look at clocks, watch their parents pay for things and maybe even get pocket money, build with blocks and houses and preferably learn about base 10 in some way. 

 

Depending what the parent knows about math progression, fractions and decimals too can be taught at a young age through introduction and extension in a hands on manner. Often when we move to workbooks we forget that Math, while an abstract concept does relate to the real world (yes we can play with numbers without any 3D manipulation whereas in physics we need "stuff", but Math is about quantities and patterns and they are everywhere.

 

An architect the other day was telling us about the fibbonaci sequence and where it is found in nature and also why architecture works better when following the sequence (fibbonaci golden rule - actually he was telling us why the building we were in was so terrible :) in his opinion) and while this needed some understanding of the pattern involved, pointing out sea shell spirals and the pattern in hurricane clouds can certainly be shown to a child who can just marvel at the beauty of it and that is Math. Having seen that the child may be interested in drawing such patterns or in creating some, or they may not be.

 

I do workbook math with my children and have been doing so since very young (they both love math) however I think they are still learning much more when it is taken into real life and the things they see around them - that however would just be too much work for me to plan all the time. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Just repeating that yes lots of concepts can be learned without a book, but you have to also consider whether or not you are actually going to do that.  Maybe I'm not a natural teacher or something, but I don't find a lot of opportunities on a regular basis to talk everyday math with my kids.  Money?  I swipe my card.  My kids have barely seen money.  When we were measuring for flooring and installing flooring ok yes we talked math then.  Measuring in the kitchen?  I mean once you've used measuring cups a couple of times it's not a big deal and there isn't really a whole lot of math.  When they were very little little, of course counting, maybe pointing out numbers, etc.  But that's about it.  I'm not sure if that's enough.  I prefer(ed) having a book at least as a guide for what to cover.  I don't always follow it exactly or have my kids do every single problem, but just having it as a reminder of what needs to be covered is helpful.  (Speaking of when my kids were younger.  They are both well past this point.)

 

 

[SarahW]

Some of the programs I am looking at don't start until third grade so I am wondering if it is really necessary to do much before then. They seem to start with basics but move quickly so I am unsure if a child could keep up if they have not worked with much math before that.

 

 

What (modern) curriculum doesn't start till 3rd grade? I'm curious.

 

I thought one of the most interesting points in Willingham's book was that long-term memory is built with use over time. Which is why people who stop math at Algebra 2 remember little algebra, but those who continue past calculus remember a lot of algebra.

 

So "moving quickly" through the basics concerns me. Also, there's the issue of stamina. Now that my kid is 8 he can maybe do two full pages of MM before he tuckers out, both because of writing and mental fatigue. I can't imagine the difficulty he would have if we were trying to "move quickly" - he still needs practice, and only in small bits.

 

I don't believe in "magic times" of instruction.  ;)  When my kid was asking what signs said, and trying to read "stop" on the red signs, I taught him to read. Adding and subtracting came to him naturally, and he enjoys learning more "riddles" to quiz us on from the backseat. I really can't imagine missing out on that because someone told me it was wrong.

[Ellie]

I do not think that Math can wait until grade 3 - in the real world that would not be possible. Workbook style math could possibly wait forever or even never be done. Very young children need to have things counted for them, need to see shapes and play with blocks and patterns, talk about time and look at clocks, watch their parents pay for things and maybe even get pocket money, build with blocks and houses and preferably learn about base 10 in some way. 

 

 

But the question was about "math instruction," which we have all understood to mean "sitting the dc down at a desk and requiring them to learn to the stuff in this textbook here." :-) And yes, that can wait.

 

Surely most of us help our dc learn how to count and tell time and see shapes and all that. Which is actually the point: our children learn those basic things as part of their lives; we can wait on the *formal* instruction.

[wendyroo]

... but I don't find a lot of opportunities on a regular basis to talk everyday math with my kids. 

 

Oh, I find the world is full of math to discuss with my kids.  We have conversations about percents on sale signs and the slopes of the slides at the park.  We talk about how a T-rex would count (base 4) and the probability that the next car that drives by will be purple.  I've introduced tessellation and fractals in nature and proportions when we are mixing paint during art time.

 

I do have my kids working through the Singapore books (they tend to go through them 2-3 years ahead) as a math spine and a source of interesting practice problems, but I often find that real life is teaching the math concepts before we get to them in Singapore.

 

Wendy

[Χά�ων]

What (modern) curriculum doesn't start till 3rd grade? I'm curious.

 

I thought one of the most interesting points in Willingham's book was that long-term memory is built with use over time. Which is why people who stop math at Algebra 2 remember little algebra, but those who continue past calculus remember a lot of algebra.

 

So "moving quickly" through the basics concerns me. Also, there's the issue of stamina. Now that my kid is 8 he can maybe do two full pages of MM before he tuckers out, both because of writing and mental fatigue. I can't imagine the difficulty he would have if we were trying to "move quickly" - he still needs practice, and only in small bits.

 

I don't believe in "magic times" of instruction. ;) When my kid was asking what signs said, and trying to read "stop" on the red signs, I taught him to read. Adding and subtracting came to him naturally, and he enjoys learning more "riddles" to quiz us on from the backseat. I really can't imagine missing out on that because someone told me it was wrong.

Prior to 3rd grade my son count count, add, subtract, carry, borrow, read an analog clock and do almost all other skills covered through 3rd grade. He learned this without formal instruction. He learned to add and subtract by living in a language rich home. He could even do some basic division and understood multiplication in concept. No one is saying do not teach and explain. The point is, for many, a formal math curriculum where the child is taught sitting at a table does problem after problem is not needed for the basics.

 

Example

I buy a dozen donuts in the way to grandma and grandpas house. If the 4 of use share them equally how many do we each get? 12÷4=3 but he is not learning the term, but the concept.

 

When he wanted a watch, I bought him one and taught him how to tell time. He practiced every 2 minutes for what seemed like forever and can read a clock with ease.

 

I have him coins and explained the value and he had no problems. I took him to the store to make small purchases. I had him pay.

 

 

 

 

No clue where he learned to carry and borrow from.

[Heathermomster]

Some of the programs I am looking at don't start until third grade so I am wondering if it is really necessary to do much before then. They seem to start with basics but move quickly so I am unsure if a child could keep up if they have not worked with much math before that.

What programs are you looking at that delay math?

 

Math with my DD is fun and filled with manipulatives and games. We use Singapore, and she loves it. I don't push her, and she doesn't cry. We have been doing subitizing activities together since she could speak well. DD is not advanced or anything, but she enjoys spending time with me and doing math.

 

I would never dream of delaying math. I work under the assumption that if DD's attitude is bad about math, I am doing something wrong and work to remedy it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh, I find the world is full of math to discuss with my kids.  We have conversations about percents on sale signs and the slopes of the slides at the park.  We talk about how a T-rex would count (base 4) and the probability that the next car that drives by will be purple.  I've introduced tessellation and fractals in nature and proportions when we are mixing paint during art time.

 

I do have my kids working through the Singapore books (they tend to go through them 2-3 years ahead) as a math spine and a source of interesting practice problems, but I often find that real life is teaching the math concepts before we get to them in Singapore.

 

Wendy

 

Yeah see I would not "see" that in everyday stuff.  It does not come naturally to me.  I can't be the only one who would say that.  The OP may or may not be like me.

[sweetpea3829]

Prior to 3rd grade my son count count, add, subtract, carry, borrow, read an analog clock and do almost all other skills covered through 3rd grade. He learned this without formal instruction. He learned to add and subtract by living in a language rich home. He could even do some basic division and understood multiplication in concept. No one is saying do not teach and explain. The point is, for many, a formal math curriculum where the child is taught sitting at a table does problem after problem is not needed for the basics.

 

Example

I buy a dozen donuts in the way to grandma and grandpas house. If the 4 of use share them equally how many do we each get? 12÷4=3 but he is not learning the term, but the concept.

 

When he wanted a watch, I bought him one and taught him how to tell time. He practiced every 2 minutes for what seemed like forever and can read a clock with ease.

 

I have him coins and explained the value and he had no problems. I took him to the store to make small purchases. I had him pay.

 

 

 

 

No clue where he learned to carry and borrow from.

 

 

Now see, this is where it boils down to "every kid is different."  

 

My oldest DS8 is very similar to yours.  I had not yet formally taught him division, but when he wanted a donut, and noticed there were only two (but we have four kids), he would say to me, "Mom, I know there's not enough donuts for all of us, but if you cut the two in half, there will be four!"  He was only 5 or so.  

 

DS7 knows how to tell time, and we haven't covered it at all yet.  

 

So yay...they are picking up on math naturally.

 

Then there's DD9.  She lives in the same language-rich home and has the same upbringing, exposure and experiences as the rest....yet she would NEVER understand that you could cut two donuts in half to make four.  Not without having had it explicitly taught.  Even the basics/concepts are absolutely lost on her, until she has explicit and repeated instruction.  

[Χά�ων]

Now see, this is where it boils down to "every kid is different."

 

My oldest DS8 is very similar to yours. I had not yet formally taught him division, but when he wanted a donut, and noticed there were only two (but we have four kids), he would say to me, "Mom, I know there's not enough donuts for all of us, but if you cut the two in half, there will be four!" He was only 5 or so.

 

DS7 knows how to tell time, and we haven't covered it at all yet.

 

So yay...they are picking up on math naturally.

 

Then there's DD9. She lives in the same language-rich home and has the same upbringing, exposure and experiences as the rest....yet she would NEVER understand that you could cut two donuts in half to make four. Not without having had it explicitly taught. Even the basics/concepts are absolutely lost on her, until she has explicit and repeated instruction.

There is a huge difference between dividing for donuts among 4 and knowing to cut 2 in half for 4 people. Really there is.

 

But still, prior to 3rd grade math is mostly learning how to count and counting different ways.

[sweetpea3829]

There is a huge difference between dividing for donuts among 4 and knowing to cut 2 in half for 4 people. Really there is.

 

But still, prior to 3rd grade math is mostly learning how to count and counting different ways.

 

 

I think you may have missed my point.  Perhaps that was my fault relating my son's donut example to a division problem (blame that on early morning brain fog) as actually, it was a fraction problem.  Yes, fractions and division are the same, yet you are correct in that dividing a group of 12 into four groups is different from dividing two donuts in half for four people.

 

Regardless...the point was that for some kids, picking up on math concepts comes naturally, and they don't NEED explicit instruction in the early years.

 

For others...they will never pick up on any math concepts without explicit instruction and delaying will only make it harder for them in the long run.  

[wendyroo]

Then there's DD9.  She lives in the same language-rich home and has the same upbringing, exposure and experiences as the rest....yet she would NEVER understand that you could cut two donuts in half to make four.  Not without having had it explicitly taught.  Even the basics/concepts are absolutely lost on her, until she has explicit and repeated instruction.  

 

I guess I don't see "real life" math as being the opposite of explicitly taught.

 

The other day the boys and I were shopping and we bought two dozen eggs.  As we went about the rest of our shopping I did an informal division lesson (mostly aimed at Peter).  How many eggs would Peter get if he got them all?  What about if just he and Elliot equally shared the eggs?  How many could they each have?  What about if he, Elliot and Spencer equally shared the eggs?  This was a harder division problem for him to figure out mentally, so we discussed several different strategies.  What about if I wanted a share of the eggs?  Lastly, what about if all 5 family members wanted the same number of eggs?  After he discovered there would be left over eggs, I then introduced the term remainder.  

 

Most of what I do with my boys are explicit mini-lessons buried within real life problem based learning.

 

Wendy

[sweetpea3829]

I guess I don't see "real life" math as being the opposite of explicitly taught.

 

The other day the boys and I were shopping and we bought two dozen eggs.  As we went about the rest of our shopping I did an informal division lesson (mostly aimed at Peter).  How many eggs would Peter get if he got them all?  What about if just he and Elliot equally shared the eggs?  How many could they each have?  What about if he, Elliot and Spencer equally shared the eggs?  This was a harder division problem for him to figure out mentally, so we discussed several different strategies.  What about if I wanted a share of the eggs?  Lastly, what about if all 5 family members wanted the same number of eggs?  After he discovered there would be left over eggs, I then introduced the term remainder.  

 

Most of what I do with my boys are explicit mini-lessons buried within real life problem based learning.

 

Wendy

 

And that's all fine and good.  But if I asked my 9 yr old those questions, prior to direct instruction with MUS/workbook instruction, she would have given a blank stare.  

[maize]

 

 

Regardless...the point was that for some kids, picking up on math concepts comes naturally, and they don't NEED explicit instruction in the early years.

 

For others...they will never pick up on any math concepts without explicit instruction and delaying will only make it harder for them in the long run.  

 

 

Which is why homeschooling is so great, right? We get to adjust our teaching according to the needs of the actual children in front of us.

 

Win!

[Ravin]

And that's all fine and good. But if I asked my 9 yr old those questions, prior to direct instruction with MUS/workbook instruction, she would have given a blank stare.

Or there are kids like my 11yo., who at whatever age would have happily worked out those real life examples, but by age 8 if you called it "math" and tried to present out in a book, you'd get a blank stare, or tears.

 

If I had a do-over you bet I'd delay math instruction!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I guess I don't see "real life" math as being the opposite of explicitly taught.

 

The other day the boys and I were shopping and we bought two dozen eggs.  As we went about the rest of our shopping I did an informal division lesson (mostly aimed at Peter).  How many eggs would Peter get if he got them all?  What about if just he and Elliot equally shared the eggs?  How many could they each have?  What about if he, Elliot and Spencer equally shared the eggs?  This was a harder division problem for him to figure out mentally, so we discussed several different strategies.  What about if I wanted a share of the eggs?  Lastly, what about if all 5 family members wanted the same number of eggs?  After he discovered there would be left over eggs, I then introduced the term remainder.  

 

Most of what I do with my boys are explicit mini-lessons buried within real life problem based learning.

 

Wendy

 

Just curious what your background is. 

 

I talked to my kids a lot when they were little (they aren't little anymore).  I generally didn't talk about stuff like you mention though.  I won't say never, but not regularly.  I recall a few times challenging one of my kids to add up our Scrabble scores. This might explain why so many people in this country have issues with math.  It's not part of the everyday thinking for a lot of people.  In part I take it for granted, but except for the fact I am working on math everyday with my kids and on my own so I can keep up, I probably wouldn't think much about math.  I'm finding I'm learning more that has become helpful in some circumstances, but again, it's just not really something I think I'd think about at all without the situation I'm currently in. 

 

I admit though I'm not a natural teacher.  Might sound nuts that I homeschool my kids and say that, but it's true.  I don't see myself as a teacher. 

[regentrude]

nm. did not read carefully enough

[wendyroo]

Just curious what your background is.

By education I am an engineer which gives me the advantage that I see math everywhere and feel very comfortable talking with my kids about how numbers work.

 

BUT, my childhood was filled with that kind of math and my dad was a plumber and my mom was a homemaker who had barely squeaked though high school (due to skipping more days than she attended :laugh:).

 

I vividly remember my dad taking me on a fishing trip when I was a tween and having me derive from scratch the formula to convert Celsius to Fahrenheit (we were listening to a Canadian radio station that said it was 26 degrees). My mom bought a surveying transit at a garage sale and we went outside to figure out for ourselves how tall our house was (having to figure out trigonometry in a guess and check kind of way). My parents were constantly talking about math to me and my brother, even though my mom had only made it through algebra 2 and my dad through trigonometry. They didn't know a lot of math, but they had a solid understanding of the basics and were determined to challenge me and my brother to play with numbers and cobble together solutions to problems that we didn't technically have the skills to solve.

 

Wendy

[smfmommy]

If you are looking for a way to teach math with words rather than worksheets you might check out Verbal Math. Www.Mathlesson.com

 

I am just starting book one with my son who hates pens but is good with numbers.

 

I also like the I Love Math and Math Smart series for introducing topics. But it does take more energy then just doing the next page/lesson in your book. The extra work can make a world of difference depending on the child.

[Hunter]

I took my boys and friend out ot eat when they were young teens. I made them figure out the tip, including a review lesson on percentages. Their girl-crazy friend was resisting and I asked him what he was would do if he got a really pretty waitress and wanted to make sure he got the tip right.

 

He said, "I wouldn't need to know what 15% was. I'd just take out my wallet, empty it in the table, and give it all to her."

 

I think that was the last time I did a real-like math problem with the boys.

[SparklyUnicorn]

By education I am an engineer which gives me the advantage that I see math everywhere and feel very comfortable talking with my kids about how numbers work.

 

BUT, my childhood was filled with that kind of math and my dad was a plumber and my mom was a homemaker who had barely squeaked though high school (due to skipping more days than she attended  :laugh:).  

 

I vividly remember my dad taking me on a fishing trip when I was a tween and having me derive from scratch the formula to convert Celsius to Fahrenheit (we were listening to a Canadian radio station that said it was 26 degrees).  My mom bought a surveying transit at a garage sale and we went outside to figure out for ourselves how tall our house was (having to figure out trigonometry in a guess and check kind of way).  My parents were constantly talking about math to my brother and I, even though my mom had only made it through algebra 2 and my dad through trigonometry.  They didn't know a lot of math, but they had a solid understanding of the basics and were determined to challenge my brother and I to play with numbers and cobble together solutions to problems that we didn't technically have the skills to solve.

 

Wendy

 

Ah ok.  So this explains it.  LOL

[SparklyUnicorn]

I took my boys and friend out ot eat when they were young teens. I made them figure out the tip, including a review lesson on percentages. Their girl-crazy friend was resisting and I asked him what he was would do if he got a really pretty waitress and wanted to make sure he got the tip right.

 

He said, "I wouldn't need to know what 15% was. I'd just take out my wallet, empty it in the table, and give it all to her."

 

I think that was the last time I did a real-like math problem with the boys.

 

That's easy here.  Just double the tax.  ;)  (16%, but close enough)

 

 

[Laura Corin]

My hesitation would be if there is a remote possibility your kids could go to elementary school at some point.  I don't do everything with that in mind, but some things.  And I don't mean follow what the schools do exactly.  I just can't imagine putting my kid into a school in 3rd grade with no prior math instruction.  Although if you are asking whether or not one needs a specific book and curriculum, no I don't think so.  You can cover a lot of the basics without that.

 

Yes.  I didn't worry in primary/elementary school about anything except English and maths, but just in case I went under a bus, I wanted to make sure that at least they would fit academically at school.  

 

In Calvin's case, I didn't manage to achieve that until he was 13 because of his coordination difficulties, but I did with Hobbes and he ended up going to school at age 10.

[Laura Corin]

What (modern) curriculum doesn't start till 3rd grade? I'm curious.

 

 

 

Galore Park Junior maths doesn't start until age 7 (UK year three, US 2nd grade).  But it expects that the children will have a background with basic manipulation of numbers below 10.  This is the first chapter, which is about place value.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah truth be told if I could go back and do things differently, I might not have tried so hard with math so soon.  I will admit that.  My second kid, the school hater, I have started stuff a lot later with because he just wasn't cooperating, and I didn't want to have constant battles.  I've found it really has not been a problem.

However, that was a risk because I have every intention to continue homeschooling, but hey I can't possibly know what the future brings.  There is no way DH could do it if something happened to me and we have no family around.  So I don't want to set them up for things being really difficult if they need to go to school.

 

 

[EmilyGF]

I've been reading up some on what kids should be doing in early math according to cognitive scientists. Preschool/kindergarten math should be more focused on spatial skills (puzzles, blocks, patterns, etc) and less on writing and arithmetic. 

 

I do not delay math instruction because I distinctly remember enjoying math in first grade and don't want to deprive my children of that experience. Also, I set a timer for 13 minutes for one-on-one work, so it doesn't take much time.

[Leah_S]

I did!    No regrets! 

[FO4UR]

Yeah see I would not "see" that in everyday stuff.  It does not come naturally to me.  I can't be the only one who would say that.  The OP may or may not be like me.

 

 

I need a little nudge.  I can find irl stuff, but I won't think about it if I don't have something prodding my memory.

 

 

I teach my dc a whole lot of music via osmosis though.  When people used to ask me how to teach music to young children, I would say "Just sing to them."  I realized that this doesn't work for most b/c most don't really sing. Even if a mom can sing well, if she doesn't do it b/c she loves to do it, it comes off contrived.  In that case, it's better to be up front with the child and treat the singing like a lesson rather than disguising the lesson as "normal irl."  Kids pick up on it, and they will stomach a lesson better than something made to look like it wasn't a lesson.

 

 

 

If you don't live it and breath it, a curriculum helps.

[stm4him]

I am looking at Saxon Math Intermediate 3 (they do have earlier versions but I don't want scripted anymore), Monarch Math (starts in third), and there was another one I think but I can't think of it at the moment.

 

I agree that some kids will pick up math naturally and some won't. My third child knows how to do fourth grade level math and he is in second grade and he has only been through Saxon Math K and 1 and the first forty lessons of Saxon 2 which were review. I have never taught him carrying or borrowing but he can do large problems in his head. My second child is wonderful at language arts but has a harder time with math. He is not necessarily bad at it but doesn't enjoy it or naturally pick up on it. He does well when taught the system but doesn't truly understand number relationships on the same level as my third child. My oldest probably has dyscalcula (or however you spell it) and struggles with the most basic concepts. She needs extreme repetition over a long period of time to do math. My fourth child is average but she has a knack for design and building. I think she will be a natural with geometry.

 

I have math conversations with my mathy kid because that is how his mind works so he brings it up and I run with it. I can explain math concepts to him in a matter of minutes and he gets it. He solved a number puzzle in two hours that took my other son and I two days and we never finished. My oldest is a natural cook so we talk math in the kitchen. My second loves history so we talk numbers when we talk battles.

 

I have always done math from the age of four or five but that has gotten harder with so many little ones and older ones who struggle with math. I really like Saxon but the scripted plans take forever. I want them to self-teach math with help as needed when they are in third or fourth grade and their reading skills allow that. I am only Ok with that because I know that much of what is taught in younger years is learned naturally by them figuring it out or having it taught verbally as it comes up in life. I do think math fact practice is very useful but that can be done independently in short periods daily. Everything learned then is repeated in third grade. If a concept still needs practice I think that could be acquired easily enough online or from a workbook from Walmart (meaning things like time, money, measurement, basic arithmetic, etc.)

 

With my child who has always struggled, I don't know that starting her before she could read well helped. If anything it made it harder because I had to orally explain and drill most everything and she is not an auditory learner so I think it made math miserable. She also felt like a failure and still struggles with that. I would rather have let her play more instead of torturing her and waited until her brain was ready to read and process information well. My second one is very auditory but he hates long lessons so I probably tortured him too. My third probably could have figured out everything I taught him on his own.

 

I think daily math play and exploration with cheap workbooks and manipulatives will keep math fun and interesting until they are strong readers. And if I were ever to go back to Saxon for the early grades I will make up my own wording for the lessons most likely... If I can be that brave... Lol.

[kiwik]

Yeah see I would not "see" that in everyday stuff. It does not come naturally to me. I can't be the only one who would say that. The OP may or may not be like me.

I talk a about random maths and science stuff like that. I also noticed after reading an article about what parents talked about when reading to their kids that I talked about the text rather than the picture (the article claimed the opposite). I agree though that many people would not think of talking to their kids about maths. And I don't stretch to base four dinosaurs although we did discuss binary. Reading Penrose is a good starting point.

 

Eta I can't sing and I don't like to listen to music though so I am a bit of a fail there.