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AP Testing?


EndOfOrdinary
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First off a few things due to AP being such a heated topic:

 

1) I dislike Ap testing. I do not feel like it is about learning, nor do I think it is an important part of education. I get the arms race and greatly want to avoid it.

 

2) That said my husband LOVES testing. It has been the single largest factor in him backing off Ds and myself with regards to homeschooling. Dh sees it as iron clad learning evaluation more than any other method, including his personal opinion. Until Explore testing he refused to acknowledge our son as gifted in any way, no matter what. As soon as test scores came, no more issues, let the labels fly. This is not going to change and trust me, I've tried!

 

3) Secondly Ds is looking at Ivy League pretty hard and APs are just part of that. Right, wrong, invalid, whatever they are part of it.

 

4) We are not teaching to the test. We are learning and two months before the test are doing test prep to see about little holes and to get used to it. I am not trying to change over our homeschooling into an AP factory.

 

5)My husband is a public high school instructor in a district that offers 20 AP courses. I have testing space for my son whenever we decide regardless of age. It is a drive, but not un-doable. It isn't for something like Latin, but it is for most of the others. Finding a seat for a much younger student is not a problem. Ds is doing the SAT with them in October as an 11 year old, no one cares.

 

Alright, that said, Ds is considering taking the Environmental Science and Human Geography AP tests in 7th grade. Right now, on practice tests he scores 75 percent of the multiple choice correctly with just what we have been doing and no targeted study at all. That is without a timer. The writing is definitely not there yet, but with a bit of practice could be. Writing is something we are working on across the board. Good ideas, total mess of expressing them.

 

Is this insane to think of in two years? It feels a bit insane. Experiences from those out in the Interwebs? How stressful and crazy is the testing? How young have your kids done AP testing?

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I am in the midst of wondering if we should pursue it in May. DS is 12, 7th grade by age. Totally ready I think and it's only my own hesitation that is the issue. I hesitate because he will be doing higher college level work in the test areas next semester and beyond (at least two more semesters beyond) so I don't know if taking each test will be a benefit when he would have covered more work in those areas before he applies to colleges. He has Ivy League aspirations too. It's just hard for me to decide right now.

 

Anecdotal...I know kids who have done it in 5th and 6th and done very well (perfect scores). If it's something the kid wants to do and everything else lines up like it has for you, why not I guess?

 

I have heard that you don't have to report AP scores because colleges don't require AP scores to be provided for admission (maybe check with the colleges first?). So if for some reason kiddo bombs it, I think you don't have to report it. But I'm not sure how it works if you list an AP course in the transcript and don't report the score. I hope someone more knowledgeable will comment.

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This makes me feel far less crazy. Thanks, quark :)

 

I wasn't going to list anything on the transcript other than scores (unless they are abysmal). More as you were talking about as a benchmark. Ds has done a mountain of environmental work and taking apart the science. It would be a way to say "here is why I have granted credit" or "here is why we are moving on as if the boy was in advanced levels."

 

I know he has done it, but I do not know if that nice pretty little status symbol of a score is really going to push too much over the edge. You are not required to have them, but from everyone I have spoken to it is a question of staking one resume up against the others. If they have 7 AP's and DE, should my kid do the same if he is able to without much issue? I do not know if I would have considered the outside skepticism without Dh. I mean, I knew it was there, but not to the degree some people really do not want to step outside "normal" boxes. It has been very positive to get my ducks in a row.

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I know he has done it, but I do not know if that nice pretty little status symbol of a score is really going to push too much over the edge. You are not required to have them, but from everyone I have spoken to it is a question of staking one resume up against the others. If they have 7 AP's and DE, should my kid do the same if he is able to without much issue? I do not know if I would have considered the outside skepticism without Dh. I mean, I knew it was there, but not to the degree some people really do not want to step outside "normal" boxes. It has been very positive to get my ducks in a row.

 

EoO, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying - can you clarify what you mean by the bolded?

 

Keep in mind that some APs carry more weight than others (e.g. my understanding is that Human Geography is a lighter one, for lack of a better descriptor) and that the colleges will not care what grade level he took an AP in; they'll only care about the score.

 

I would plan to explain the rest of his activities elsewhere in the applications, though honestly from the sounds of it, he'll end up with heaps more things that demonstrate the depth of his interest and accomplishments by the time he gets to the end of high school.

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If we had a place to do it, we'd probably do likewise. Like your DS, DD does quite well on practice AP Bio tests now-my biggest pause would be the free response because she simply isn't a quick writer, and tends to shut down and panic if she feels she can't do something. I was considering having her do some targeted study and do the CLEP at the end of this year, except that we diverged into microbiology, which really isn't on the CLEP, and put getting those last few topics she needs for the CLEP aside. In our case, the primary concern is documentation for outside programs-for example, DD would love to do some of the summer special topics classes that various colleges offer (the ones that are things like spending 3 weeks learning about sea turtles at a marine research station), and test scores will be part of showing her readiness for such classes. I'm hoping to have her do the SAT this coming fall (mostly because she's a kid who seems more like an SAT kid than an ACT kid-so I think the older test may be a better fit for her), and the ACT this next Spring. We considered it for this year, and the only reason we didn't was that DD wanted to take the EXPLORE with the talent search again because she likes being part of a bunch of smart kids. I figured that was a reasonable request for a 10 yr old :).

 

I think it makes sense to document higher level work for these kids who are really actively involved early because it's likely they'll move beyond that content fairly quickly. In DD's case, I suspect we'll have some biology or zoology class listed on her transcript every single semester from now on out, but that this is probably the last year she'll be doing anything that at all resembles high school level biology (and I'm including AP in high school level because that background is expected for a biology major). It's not so much doing it young-it's doing it when it's logical to do it, as opposed to having to go backwards later.

 

 

 

 

 

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EoO, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying - can you clarify what you mean by the bolded?

 

Keep in mind that some APs carry more weight than others (e.g. my understanding is that Human Geography is a lighter one, for lack of a better descriptor) and that the colleges will not care what grade level he took an AP in; they'll only care about the score.

 

I would plan to explain the rest of his activities elsewhere in the applications, though honestly from the sounds of it, he'll end up with heaps more things that demonstrate the depth of his interest and accomplishments by the time he gets to the end of high school.

The idea of Environmental Science and Human Geography was that they are both lighter APs to begin with. World History is being redesigned and will be the first year out of the shoot, so it is a no go until later. They are like gateway AP's. I know he can score well on them and they can give him an idea of what the process is like without the stress level of difficult content. If he is agreeable to continue then he would do two or three a year from then on out.

 

I know that Ds is going to have a mountain of outside stuff to put on an application, but all of it is very subjective and open to interpretation. AP tests look like public school. They are the same for everybody so naysayers would have a hard time discounting them. At least that was the thought. It allows Ds to stack up next to the other applicants, but then also have his outside interests validated. I am wondering if a nice stack of AP test score are really going to do much to weight an admission's decision. The scores can opt him out of over a year sitting through mediocre DE classes at the Community College, local state school care quite a bit, but will it really be any big deal to tippy top schools. That is what I meant by push too much over the edge.

 

Perhaps I am too worried that he will be discounted - that some other individual will claim "mommy's helping" rather than take him seriously for himself. The outside skepticism has me concerned. It has been happening more and more as Ds is venturing into the territory of actually doing things and not just personally learning or working with groups of kids.

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If we had a place to do it, we'd probably do likewise. Like your DS, DD does quite well on practice AP Bio tests now-my biggest pause would be the free response because she simply isn't a quick writer, and tends to shut down and panic if she feels she can't do something. I was considering having her do some targeted study and do the CLEP at the end of this year, except that we diverged into microbiology, which really isn't on the CLEP, and put getting those last few topics she needs for the CLEP aside. In our case, the primary concern is documentation for outside programs-for example, DD would love to do some of the summer special topics classes that various colleges offer (the ones that are things like spending 3 weeks learning about sea turtles at a marine research station), and test scores will be part of showing her readiness for such classes. I'm hoping to have her do the SAT this coming fall (mostly because she's a kid who seems more like an SAT kid than an ACT kid-so I think the older test may be a better fit for her), and the ACT this next Spring. We considered it for this year, and the only reason we didn't was that DD wanted to take the EXPLORE with the talent search again because she likes being part of a bunch of smart kids. I figured that was a reasonable request for a 10 yr old :).

 

I think it makes sense to document higher level work for these kids who are really actively involved early because it's likely they'll move beyond that content fairly quickly. In DD's case, I suspect we'll have some biology or zoology class listed on her transcript every single semester from now on out, but that this is probably the last year she'll be doing anything that at all resembles high school level biology (and I'm including AP in high school level because that background is expected for a biology major). It's not so much doing it young-it's doing it when it's logical to do it, as opposed to having to go backwards later.

We are doing the SAT in the fall as well. The older version verbal stuff is really a place where Ds does well. We are trying to sneak it in. Is your DD going to attempt the writing? Your description sounds like she and Ds could have a nice little panic party together :)

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I think what I'll do is tell her that if she wants to write something, instead of just sitting there for 30 minutes and doing nothing, go ahead, but don't panic about it. I know for the ACT, it's at the end and you can simply leave early if you're not doing it, but as I understand it, it's in the middle of the SAT, so that's really not a choice-and while I can have her do the ACT with just talent search kids, where I don't think they even do the writing, I don't think that will be an option for the SAT since almost no one takes it here.

 

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DS says the essay (SAT) was the very first section they had to do. I thought that was the norm? Please check. Maybe different proctors have different rules?

 

My feel is don't sweat the essay (as in take it too seriously) right now at these younger ages. DS didn't want to skip it but he didn't perform brilliantly in it either. He wrote 2 paragraphs (I think), maybe it was 3. He does not write well under time pressure, he doesn't even come off as being grammatical most of the time. But it was very good practice and made him aware of areas to improve. A friend of mine's DD just sat staring at a wall during the essay portion and she was fine with it. That was not an option for DS because despite the writing reluctance, the boredom would have made him antsy and cranky so writing anything at all was preferable to him than sitting there not doing anything, even if it was for 25 minutes.

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I know that Ds is going to have a mountain of outside stuff to put on an application, but all of it is very subjective and open to interpretation. AP tests look like public school. They are the same for everybody so naysayers would have a hard time discounting them. At least that was the thought. It allows Ds to stack up next to the other applicants, but then also have his outside interests validated. I am wondering if a nice stack of AP test score are really going to do much to weight an admission's decision. The scores can opt him out of over a year sitting through mediocre DE classes at the Community College, local state school care quite a bit, but will it really be any big deal to tippy top schools. That is what I meant by push too much over the edge.

 

Perhaps I am too worried that he will be discounted - that some other individual will claim "mommy's helping" rather than take him seriously for himself. The outside skepticism has me concerned. It has been happening more and more as Ds is venturing into the territory of actually doing things and not just personally learning or working with groups of kids.

 

FWIW, from my (entirely inexperienced!!) armchair, I see two separate aspects to the application, one being the deep interests/talents and the other checking the box of academic rigor; see, e.g., MIT blog Applying Sideways.  The rigor box can be checked by a certain minimum number of APs or DEs, whichever happen to work best for the situation, no?  The mountain of outside stuff demonstrating the depth of his interests and talent are in another category and APs aren't going to substitute for it in any event.  That's the stuff that makes him a unique applicant.

 

So the concern is that the outside activities - demonstrating interest - will be discounted?  Is the plan for him to apply to top-tier schools early, say by more than one year?  Because otherwise, he'll grow a lot between now and then and I imagine he'd be taken much more seriously (LOL, really, I can't even imagine what cool stuff he'll be up to at 16-17 y.o.).  Have you read Newport's How to Be a High School Superstar?  I immediately think of that book when I think of your ds with regard to his amazing accomplishments!

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FWIW, from my (entirely inexperienced!!) armchair, I see two separate aspects to the application, one being the deep interests/talents and the other checking the box of academic rigor; see, e.g., MIT blog Applying Sideways.  The rigor box can be checked by a certain minimum number of APs or DEs, whichever happen to work best for the situation, no?  The mountain of outside stuff demonstrating the depth of his interests and talent are in another category and APs aren't going to substitute for them in any event.

 

So the concern is that the outside activities - demonstrating interest - will be discounted?  Is the plan for him to apply to top-tier schools early, say by more than one year?  Because otherwise, he'll grow a lot between now and then and I imagine he'd be taken much more seriously (LOL, really, I can't even imagine what cool stuff he'll be up to at 16-17 y.o.).  Have you read Newport's How to Be a High School Superstar?  I immediately think of that book when I think of your ds with regard to his amazing accomplishments!

 

I have read Applying Sideways, and it greatly helped.  Applying Sideways was a big push for my son to see himself as Ivy League not just a place for introverted nerds.  If extroverted interesting people go to Ivy League schools than that meant he could as well (he responded so full of judgment that it caught me off guard). I have not read Newport's book; I'll put it on hold at the library.  I try to not think of 16-17.  I'm treading water like crazy to keep up with the learning curves of 10!  I do not know how quark and regentrude do it.

 

We have thought about applying locally to school early, but only to state schools.  Early application to a higher tier school could only be Reed since it is within an hour-ish of our house.  I told Ds he did not get to fly across the country to attend college at barely 16.  It would be a terrible idea for his personality and he would get into major trouble from peer pressure. He has accepted this as more than likely the truth.  We have toured the EEP program in our state and it did not feel right for him at this point, so he said no to college at 14.  He will be attending at barely 17 just because of a charter school grade advancement when he skipped Kindergarten.  The only way that will change is if he really decides to go to school only for a future profession.  In that case, it would be CC by 14 and BA by 17.

 

I think I might see what you are getting at. By trying to approach the situation on all fronts, I am just delaying making a committed decision.  A stack of AP tests allows for options to stay wide open, but it is more than likely not needed.  It is a way for me to feel like I'm covering my bases and not screwing up this whole guidance counselor thing, but in reality it is probably just more work for Ds which is not necessary when I really look at who he is and what he is doing.

 

Hmm....this is important to look at....Thank You for inspiring such insight if that was not what you were getting at and Thank You for pointing it out if it was!  Your extremely inexperienced arm chair suits you :)

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I think I might see what you are getting at. By trying to approach the situation on all fronts, I am just delaying making a committed decision.  A stack of AP tests allows for options to stay wide open, but it is more than likely not needed.  It is a way for me to feel like I'm covering my bases and not screwing up this whole guidance counselor thing, but in reality it is probably just more work for Ds which is not necessary when I really look at who he is and what he is doing.

 

I'm trying to separate demonstrating the academic requirements for admission (Applying Sideways prong #1) from demonstrating the interest/passion angle (the stuff that makes him an interesting person; prong #3 and potentially also prong #2).

 

I'm trying to say that as I understand, for tippy-top-tier/ivy, a stack of APs (or DEs or other higher-level coursework) is needed just to be academically competitive.  In order to complete the APs or DEs, it usually makes sense to apply to college at close to the normal age, which is what you are planning already.

 

How big the stack of APs/DEs needs to be for tippy-top-tier/ivy is not something I can comment on though it comes up from time to time on the high school board and the boards at College Confidential.  I suspect that the more interesting the student, the fewer APs/DEs may be necessary, though I also assume there is some minimum level you'd want to have.  (I could swear there are a few threads but I can't find them?  Also don't forget about SAT2s...there was a great thread on those recently.)

 

I do not know whether or how much the admissions folks appreciate the lighter APs such as Human Geography so I do not know whether there is value in pursuing that in particular.  My gut would say not really, unless the topic happens to be something he wants to study.

 

Personally, I like your idea of taking some AP exams where it seems reasonable to do so with some minimal added prep and I'm sure the folks on the high school board would have ideas for then setting up the transcript accordingly.  I keep thinking one of them will pop in here soon and bestow some actual BTDT wisdom.

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How does your son feel about testing? I was a gifted kid who loved, loved, loved it. This was pre-internet, so I had no clue about talent searches etc., but I would have been thrilled to take the SAT middle school, and would have been over the moon to take early AP tests. (Instead I started DE at 15, which seemed cutting edge at the time...)

 

If he enjoys it, what is the downside of collecting early/more AP scores, even if the top schools won't ultimately give credit? I would think middle school age would be the perfect time, so that he could focus on more impressive challenges when he is older.

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I don't pop into this board very often, so I am a little late here, but my oldest took a boatload of APs in middle school.  She took (and made 5s on) world history in seventh grade and, in eighth grade, micro- and macroeconomics, Calc AB and chemistry (before the redo--apparently it is easier now).  My rationale was that I wanted some objective evidence that she was really smart, and when she went to a b&m high school, it worked like a charm.  They allowed her to skip ahead to the proper class level, and they ended up giving her credit towards graduation requirements for several of the AP classes.  The accelerated track has been particularly important in math, as it has turned out, but having credit for some classes she needs to graduate also has paid dividends I would never have expected way back when we were doing this.  It's a long story, but the early APs have been critical to letting her spend her last two years of high school doing dual enrollment at a top-tier four-year university.  As a high school junior, she is taking junior-level (that is college junior) math and sophomore-level science courses.  

 

Even if your child is never going to a b&m school, there are likely to be programs that are going to want more than mom's word for his ability to do advanced-level work.  Love 'em or hate 'em, APs are perfect for that.  As for worries about teaching to the test, I personally feel that the APs are good tests.  If you teach to the AP test, your kiddo will learn something.

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I don't know if this helps or makes things more muddy for you EoO. The registration deadline is looming so kiddo and I had a long chat this morning. We have decided not to go ahead this year with the Calc BC. He thinks he is about 2/3s ready but he will need some time to prepare for the format and we have instead decided to spend that time on more recreational math. If he is going to set time aside, he might as well do it for the kind of problems he doesn't get to try via community college right now. If he is going to spend time preparing, he thinks he should as well prepare for the long term benefits of better problem solving skills whether or not he decides to pursue competitions at some point (doesn't seem likely that he is going to compete anytime soon though).

 

His situation is a little different because he is already dual-enrolled and receiving college credits and plans to move on to higher levels of math and DE at our top-tier flagship state uni soon if possible (next course sequence for him will be multivariable, linear alg, discrete math, diff eq and possibly another 2-3 undergrad courses) before he applies for college full time. Perhaps doing the Calc BC is not really necessary if he has those other courses under his belt. Perhaps we are making a mistake. Perhaps he might change his mind and do it after all next year... :laugh:

 

Anyway, there's time for you to decide and I hope you find some peace with whatever you decide...it really wasn't easy for me to come to this decision. I kept vacillating between yes and no and finally feel peaceful knowing that he has certain goals re the AP for this year. Just throwing our experience (or lack of it lol) in in the hopes that it will help somehow.

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Even if your child is never going to a b&m school, there are likely to be programs that are going to want more than mom's word for his ability to do advanced-level work.  Love 'em or hate 'em, APs are perfect for that.  As for worries about teaching to the test, I personally feel that the APs are good tests.  If you teach to the AP test, your kiddo will learn something.

 

I do like your post and am glad you commented plansrme. However, my personal feel on the bolded is that it is going to depend on the kiddo. Mine doesn't feel like he learned much via his AP Calc BC equivalent course-load at the CC that he wouldn't have already learned via exploring math on his own. That's why we think we are going to follow a different path for him next semester (just for math, other subjects seem to be fine at the CC). Different strokes for different folks depending on each person's different approach...just wanted to mention this as a different PoV.

 

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My son will begin APs next year as an 8th grader, either three or four. Like others have stated, I believe the level of academic course work is a function of the individual student.  I have three children, all of whom are significantly advanced and all of whom have totally different academic paths keyed to their unique needs.  My son in particular must be continually challenged or he stagnates.  Early in seventh grade, he blew through the SAT I across all three subtests.  His confidence and comfort level with testing coupled with high ability across his studies makes early AP course work and testing an easy choice for us.  This is not the case with his twin sister, who struggles with test anxiety.  She would founder in that situation, not because she lacks ability but because she has not yet developed sufficient confidence in her ability.  Her personal development and well being (as with her siblings) trump academics.

 

 

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My son will begin APs next year as an 8th grader, either three or four. Like others have stated, I believe the level of academic course work is a function of the individual student.  I have three children, all of whom are significantly advanced and all of whom have totally different academic paths keyed to their unique needs.  My son in particular must be continually challenged or he stagnates.  Early in seventh grade, he blew through the SAT I across all three subtests.  His confidence and comfort level with testing coupled with high ability across his studies makes early AP course work and testing an easy choice for us.  This is not the case with his twin sister, who struggles with test anxiety.  She would founder in that situation, not because she lacks ability but because she has not yet developed sufficient confidence in her ability.  Her personal development and well being (as with her siblings) trump academics.

 

This so very important.  Two years ago we started slowly working on Ds' test anxiety.  No tests, just lots and lots of prep, problems, discussion.  I was really worried when he took the Explore last year, but he did great.  Some switch flipped in his brain and his confidence has come in full swing.  I would not say Ds likes testing, but he is no longer freaked out about it.

 

My brother has extreme test anxiety.  I am so glad that you are willing to recognize that testing is not for everyone.  There is no way to test knowledge if you are emotionally so distressed that the knowledge cannot come out of you!

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I don't pop into this board very often, so I am a little late here, but my oldest took a boatload of APs in middle school.  She took (and made 5s on) world history in seventh grade and, in eighth grade, micro- and macroeconomics, Calc AB and chemistry (before the redo--apparently it is easier now).  My rationale was that I wanted some objective evidence that she was really smart, and when she went to a b&m high school, it worked like a charm.  They allowed her to skip ahead to the proper class level, and they ended up giving her credit towards graduation requirements for several of the AP classes.  The accelerated track has been particularly important in math, as it has turned out, but having credit for some classes she needs to graduate also has paid dividends I would never have expected way back when we were doing this.  It's a long story, but the early APs have been critical to letting her spend her last two years of high school doing dual enrollment at a top-tier four-year university.  As a high school junior, she is taking junior-level (that is college junior) math and sophomore-level science courses.  

 

Even if your child is never going to a b&m school, there are likely to be programs that are going to want more than mom's word for his ability to do advanced-level work.  Love 'em or hate 'em, APs are perfect for that.  As for worries about teaching to the test, I personally feel that the APs are good tests.  If you teach to the AP test, your kiddo will learn something.

 

I have been concerned about the idea of taking too many at once, but it appears that this is not as big a deal as it might have seemed.  Obviously, it is individual and I do not want to overstack Ds into test craziness.  However, potentially taking more than just one or two might not be the most insane thing in the world.

 

Thank you, this experience is helpful.

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EoO, I don't know if our plans will really help you, as our system is different, but this is our plan (with name changes to make into Americanese)

 

9th: AP Physics, AP Music

10th: Chemistry SAT2, start 200 level university classes

11th: Chemistry AP, Music Associate's diploma (2 year post high school program through ABRSM), SAT2 English (possibly AP but we will see)

He is likely to apply to university as an 11th grader.

 

Extracurriculars include Trio and String groups and music competitions in 10th and 11th.  And badminton, martial arts, and tramping.  I would like to get him volunteering at the local Saturday school teaching violin, but we will see. He does not plan to test in Mandarin, but I would like him to work towards the HSK. 

 

I figure that this is enough to prove that he is taking rigorous courses and with his competition math work, we are hoping for a good result. 

 

Ruth in NZ

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This so very important.  Two years ago we started slowly working on Ds' test anxiety.  No tests, just lots and lots of prep, problems, discussion.  I was really worried when he took the Explore last year, but he did great.  Some switch flipped in his brain and his confidence has come in full swing.  I would not say Ds likes testing, but he is no longer freaked out about it.

 

My brother has extreme test anxiety.  I am so glad that you are willing to recognize that testing is not for everyone.  There is no way to test knowledge if you are emotionally so distressed that the knowledge cannot come out of you!

We have been working through this for several years also.  DD has excelled with NLE and NGE, but we are still working through ways to prepare "mentally" for longer tests.  I know we'll get there; it's just a different route from siblings to the same destination. :)

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