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Low IQ and dyslexia?


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Is it possible to have dyslexia with a lower IQ? Is it more likely the intellectual deficits? Maybe a product of his overall language delay?

 

Ds 10 is reading decent now, but still skips or replaces words sometimes. His cursive copy work is beautiful.

 

He has absolutely no concept of breaking down a word to spell it and often mixes up letters. Konw for know. He leaves vowels out, despite working through some of Webster's speller.

 

Experience has shown me that time has been the best instructor for this boy. But that leaves a very unskilled 10 (should be 4-5th grade) year old.

 

I guess I'm just wondering how possible it is that he has a specific learning disability on top of autism and low iq.

 

It's really hard to find information related to learning and his iq because most articles want to convince you that the testing is faulty.

 

His iq is around 78. I know some kids with the same testing number and a diagnosis of intellectual disability, and others without ID.

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Yes, vision is good. Eye dr checks convergence, tracking (he tracks better vertically, but horizontal isn't terrible anymore), color sensitivities, etc.

 

Sight is 20/20.

 

I can see resolution of vision difficulties in other areas; he can throw and catch wonderfully, rides a bike and skateboard, reads drum music, and is finally writing on lines when writing in cursive. His print is still all over the place.

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Thank you FilltheHeart.

 

When I read about dyslexia, it comes across that there *must* be a bright kid struggling under the disability. I can't find anything about kids lower than average also struggling to reach their own potential.

 

I don't expect him to be capable of reading Shakespeare and writing a literary analysis comparing all his works, but it doesn't seem unreasonable for him to be able to consistently spell know, or read flowed instead of followed.

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Has he ever been testing with the C-TOPP or any other test that looks at phonological processing? I don't know a lot about kids with ID, but I wouldn't think that a low IQ would necessarily interfere with phonological processing. Rhyming, for example, is not something that requires a large vocabulary or higher reasoning abilities.

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I have a child with cognitive defecits who is also labeled dyslexic.  It isn't common for evaluators to choose to label this way because dyslexia, by definition is "a general term for disorders that involve difficulty in learning to read or interpret words, letters, and other symbols, but that do not affect general intelligence."  For us, they chose to use both labels because her phonological and visual discrimination skills were significantly lower than her other (also inhibited) skills.

 

 

The learning process is the same regardless: OG materials.  The difference is that we must slow them down to a pace that is incomprehensible to all but the most patient tutors.  

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I've not heard of the C-TOPP, so it's never been used.

 

At this point, I'm done with testing. He's nearly impossible to motivate and has no internal motivation to do well (product of intellectual deficits), and unless he knows the tester VERY well and likes him/her, the results will just ask more questions rather than answer existing ones. He also behaves pooly in the typical sit and speak testing environment, and is impulsive and will spit out answers before processing what was asked, but if you're slient he'll eventually correct himself.

 

If I had the option of a highly skilled neuropsychologist spending a week with him and throwing out little bits of evaluations while going for walks, building with legos, somehow tapping out morse code on the drums, or following him around a playground, I'd be thrilled to have that information. Unfortunately, the only thing that every dr, psychologist, therapist, and professional can agree on is that he's "complex," but they can't agree on complex WHAT.

 

We're using CLE language arts 2 next year (March). If, by the end of the second light unit he still has nothing for spelling, I'll be adding in AAS. If he has nothing after AAS 1, I'll look into more intensive stuff.

 

The low iq plus autism really messes with language type tests. He is verbal. Very much so. And until you get to know him, you'd even say he's capable of conversation.

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Yes, it is very possible for a student with a lower IQ to also be dyslexic. I would think it would be hard to tease the disabilities apart, though, so you would need a really good diagnostician to help with that.

 

When I taught in public schools, I had a couple of students who had low IQs, but after I used the OG approach with them for 3 years, their IQs jumped over 20 points. They really had language disabilities that were pulling down their IQs. Where I taught, the school system simply didn't go into enough detail with their diagnoses.

 

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Yes, it is very possible for a student with a lower IQ to also be dyslexic. I would think it would be hard to tease the disabilities apart, though, so you would need a really good diagnostician to help with that.

 

When I taught in public schools, I had a couple of students who had low IQs, but after I used the OG approach with them for 3 years, their IQs jumped over 20 points. They really had language disabilities that were pulling down their IQs. Where I taught, the school system simply didn't go into enough detail with their diagnoses.

Did those kids have average or above abilities in non-academic areas? Like hygiene and life skills, or maybe higher motivation to learn?

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Our daughter has been labeled intellectually disabled and also previously was labeled with a "specific learning disability in reading" (i.e. dyslexia). She's also hearing impaired and ADHD (fun times!) haha!

 

Anyway, I basically went off of the symptoms to decide whether her dyslexia was true or not. She had the low working memory (crazy low) and unusually high spatial reasoning (as in, just above grade level, not crazy high) and then she had obvious letter reversals and the main thing was she just couldn't read at 11 years old even after years of the schools trying phonics programs. So we started with Barton Reading and Spelling and I could tell almost immediately it was difficult for her, which showed she needed it. Everything clicked and reading makes sense to her now and we're just on level 3. 

 

My DH's aunt used Barton with her special needs daughter (Intellectual disability due to shaken baby syndrome) and it worked for her too. Her daughter reads really well for her age and ability level. So honestly I kinda figure it might work for some other special needs kids too and if it works who cares if dyslexia is the official diagnosis that child has :) You'd know by level 2 if it was unnecessary amount of remediation, your kid would be super bored and find every task easy. A dyslexic or struggling reader finds them challenging and engaging. Basically anyone who struggles with working memory would need some sort of Orton-Gillingham reading instruction to make progress in reading, because O-G targets working memory specifically among other things. 

 

So if you haven't yet it might be worthwhile to have the school district do a basic WISC test or get some testing from a neuropsychologist and pinpoint the specific areas of strengths and weaknesses but don't fuss too much about the diagnosis or interpretation they come to from his results. 

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Oh and I just wanted to say that reading things about how all dyslexics are super smart and everything is frustrating to me. My daughter won't be able to compensate for poor reading by opening her own business, the girl can't even figure out a dime is 10 cents, lol! I mean, yes, she's got talents stronger on the right brain side like being artistic, athletic, and outgoing, but she's still behind everyone else her age across the board, even in her relative strengths. Her strengths are her areas where she's about average for her age. So yes, we acknowledge and praise and work on those areas, but it's not the same as if she's Einstein and a genius who just talked late and will float by on her other strengths forever. But we're not alone I think in having children who struggle overall intellectually but also have this additional specific struggle of dyslexia. It just doesn't make for as impressive stories in books and websites so it's not talked about. Still, I think my DH's aunt getting her child who is functionally 5 to a 6th grade reading level is pretty amazing! And if you find out your DS does have dyslexia and choose to remediate I think you'll find the results impressive for him individually as well. 

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The low iq plus autism really messes with language type tests. He is verbal. Very much so. And until you get to know him, you'd even say he's capable of conversation.

 

The autism and related language & social difficulties would make me leery of accepting a low IQ score as necessarily being accurate. It's probably an underestimate and you'd need a non-verbal intelligence test plus a tester who has experience with kids "on the spectrum" (like maybe a BCBA) to get a more accurate number. The regular IQ tests are designed for the middle part of the curve and they are far less accurate for kids who are outliers.

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He's had the full WISC twice. Both gave wildly different scores in every section well outside what is normal.

 

The difficult but engaging sounds like it would fail (I'm going to follow my current plan, and will not discount it for the future) with him. He doesn't find anything difficult to be interesting or engaging. It's "boring" even more so if above his ability. The only thing he's ever honestly worked for is his ability to play the drums. He has an amazing instructor and he puts in a lot of practice. He's gotten where he is with a lot of hand over hand to force his brain to accept new patterns.

 

He does have very low working memory. I've even "allowed" him to develop a rude habit of interrupting in a conversation because he truly will not remember what he wanted to say, and it's usually not relevant to the interrupted conversation so I can't say something to trigger him remembering.

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The autism and related language & social difficulties would make me leery of accepting a low IQ score as necessarily being accurate. It's probably an underestimate and you'd need a non-verbal intelligence test plus a tester who has experience with kids "on the spectrum" (like maybe a BCBA) to get a more accurate number. The regular IQ tests are designed for the middle part of the curve and they are far less accurate for kids who are outliers.

He was tested at the center for autism research. His non-verbal fits right in with his verbal (it's only slightly higher).

 

If I didn't see an intellectual deficit play out in day to day life, I'd never accept it.

 

We're thisclose to FINALLY having a BCBA to work with some behaviors! :)

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Oh and I just wanted to say that reading things about how all dyslexics are super smart and everything is frustrating to me. My daughter won't be able to compensate for poor reading by opening her own business, the girl can't even figure out a dime is 10 cents, lol! I mean, yes, she's got talents stronger on the right brain side like being artistic, athletic, and outgoing, but she's still behind everyone else her age across the board, even in her relative strengths. Her strengths are her areas where she's about average for her age. So yes, we acknowledge and praise and work on those areas, but it's not the same as if she's Einstein and a genius who just talked late and will float by on her other strengths forever. But we're not alone I think in having children who struggle overall intellectually but also have this additional specific struggle of dyslexia. It just doesn't make for as impressive stories in books and websites so it's not talked about. Still, I think my DH's aunt getting her child who is functionally 5 to a 6th grade reading level is pretty amazing! And if you find out your DS does have dyslexia and choose to remediate I think you'll find the results impressive for him individually as well.

Thank you!

 

I absolutely adore my son. But I'm not going to hinder him in life by trying to pretend he's a hidden genius. He's got some splintered skills and they're amazing, but in reality, they're age appropriate.

 

He has some potential to become a drummer, but most musicians are not living large, and he'd need other skills besides getting behind a drum kit.

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He was tested at the center for autism research. His non-verbal fits right in with his verbal (it's only slightly higher).

 

The WISC isn't a non-verbal test as even the "non-verbal reasoning" sections are still pretty dependent on receptive & expressive spoken language. I just read an interesting (to me at least, LOL!) journal article on problems with intellectual assessments of the deaf & hard-of-hearing by the neuropsychologist at Kennedy Krieger who will be testing my little one in June. Some of the same issues are likely to be present when testing hearing kids with ASD due to their speech & language difficulties.

 

The author, Dr. Reesman, found that for deaf/hard-of-hearing kids the Leiter Non-Verbal Intelligence Test, the Comprehensive Test of Non-Verbal Intelligence (C-TONI), and the Universal Non-Verbal Intelligence Test (UNIT) all were superior to the WISC. She said that the best option appears to be the Leiter. I don't know yet which assessments Dr. Reesman is going to include in DD's evaluation, but hopefully she'll include at least one of the non-verbal tests.

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The WISC isn't a non-verbal test as even the "non-verbal reasoning" sections are still pretty dependent on receptive & expressive spoken language. I just read an interesting (to me at least, LOL!) journal article on problems with intellectual assessments of the deaf & hard-of-hearing by the neuropsychologist at Kennedy Krieger who will be testing my little one in June. Some of the same issues are likely to be present when testing hearing kids with ASD due to their speech & language difficulties.

 

The author, Dr. Reesman, found that for deaf/hard-of-hearing kids the Leiter Non-Verbal Intelligence Test, the Comprehensive Test of Non-Verbal Intelligence (C-TONI), and the Universal Non-Verbal Intelligence Test (UNIT) all were superior to the WISC. She said that the best option appears to be the Leiter. I don't know yet which assessments Dr. Reesman is going to include in DD's evaluation, but hopefully she'll include at least one of the non-verbal tests.

 

Not to hijack, but this is really interesting. Any chance you could link to the article? I'm interested in this since my HOH daughter was just diagnosed as intellectually disabled and while we think it's an accurate description of where she's at right now we're not sure it's a true description of her overall abilities because of the hearing loss. 

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They did more than the WISC, but no clue what.

 

As he matures he does become *slightly* more agreeable. At some point we will do more testing, but my neuropsych scenario isn't an option right now.

 

I've looked in Kennedy Krieger, but am not pushing it right now.

 

If you don't mind sharing, and remember, please pm me after the eval and let me know what you think of them! :)

 

Part of my non-testing concern right now is that ds is losing (growing out of?) some of his autism behaviors and we cannot afford to not have that diagnosis right now. BCBAs do not work exclusively with autism, but without that label, we don't get access to one.

 

He's always been borderline everything; slightly autistic with dips that suggest higher severity, borderline iq so no intellectual disability diagnosis, but certainly not average, ADHD with severe impulsivity but not too terrible focus on any given day, etc. So depending on the day or even week, he could "test out of" current diagnoses, or test more severely, or just add diagnoses on top of what we have. He even has ( very, very rare) days where he seems mostly typical!

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Not to hijack, but this is really interesting. Any chance you could link to the article? I'm interested in this since my HOH daughter was just diagnosed as intellectually disabled and while we think it's an accurate description of where she's at right now we're not sure it's a true description of her overall abilities because of the hearing loss.

Hijack away! My question's been answered. :)

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Oh and I just wanted to say that reading things about how all dyslexics are super smart and everything is frustrating to me. My daughter won't be able to compensate for poor reading by opening her own business, the girl can't even figure out a dime is 10 cents.

I'm sorry, but I do understand. I feel the same way about reading that all Aspies are geniuses who just need to find their niche. (Not our ds.)

 

My friend whose dd does have a lower IQ score has some very practical ideas for her dd that are small business oriented jobs. Dog grooming and flower arranging are two that they are exploring. They spend a lot of time focusing on skills that can lead to some sort of simple employment. (Right now she is learning to sew and she is a very good beginning seamstress.)

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Not to hijack, but this is really interesting. Any chance you could link to the article? I'm interested in this since my HOH daughter was just diagnosed as intellectually disabled and while we think it's an accurate description of where she's at right now we're not sure it's a true description of her overall abilities because of the hearing loss. 

 

It's the first citation (as of today) on Dr. Reesman's bio: http://www.kennedykrieger.org/patient-care/faculty-staff/jennifer-reesman

 

The citation for future reference if the link gets broken is Reesman, J.H., Day, L.A., Szymanski, C.A., Hughes-Wheatland, R., Witkin, G.A., Kalback, S.R. & Brice, P.J. (2014). "Review of intellectual assessment measures for children who are deaf or hard of hearing" Rehabilitation Psychology, 59(1), 99-106.

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http://bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen This is the link for the screening test for Barton.  It's free and would give you useful information.  She tells how to interpret it and what to do if you fail certain sections.

 

My concern or caution with you pursuing AAS is it may turn out to be too hard in a way that could backfire on you.  Because it involves large steps (MUCH larger than Barton), it could be too hard and turn him off to the approach entirely.  You might be safer using a program with much smaller steps that is actually intended for dyslexia and then, as the others said, jump him up to AAS if he's ready for a faster program after a couple levels.  

 

I say this because my ds, who has verbal apraxia (which is common in autism), got into AAR pre and just couldn't get anywhere with it.  AAR/AAS is fabulous stuff, so I'm not dissing it.  I'm just cautioning you that the steps are bigger and for someone who may need small, incremental steps due to ID on top of an LD, it just seems to me the very careful, tiny steps of Barton might be more attainable.  My ds was insta-frustration with AAR pre.  It had no tools to break through when he didn't understand something.  Barton never puts me in that position.  It has words to repeat every section of every lesson, so you can repeat as needed and still have fresh material.  The steps are small.  Barton was in computers (programming? I forget) before she started doing dyslexia tutoring.  She just has every little cognitive step broken down so carefully.  The AAR/AAS material is great, but it's not trying to do that.  It's really intended for a faster audience.  And given that some kids with ASD/ADHD will get an idea/conclusion in their head and that's just the END of it, I'd just encourage you to look at Barton again.  My ds does that, getting ideas in his head.  He's a floater too, where we thought he might go ASD and he went ADHD plus the dyslexia.  

 

Anyways, that's my caution.  At least do the pretest.  It might give you information that would let you know another step *before* your intended AAR/AAS would be good.  And it's free and takes about 20 minutes.  :)

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I'm sorry, but I do understand. I feel the same way about reading that all Aspies are geniuses who just need to find their niche. (Not our ds.)

 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that all kids with SN's are stealth geniuses. Just because I don't think that the current IQ tests like the WISC are very accurate for kids with SN's does not negate the fact that there are kids out there who do have ID. A test that has lots of false positives still has plenty of true positives as well.

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I certainly didn't mean to imply that all kids with SN's are stealth geniuses. Just because I don't think that the current IQ tests like the WISC are very accurate for kids with SN's does not negate the fact that there are kids out there who do have ID. A test that has lots of false positives still has plenty of true positives as well.

My post wasn't directed toward you! No need to apologize. Fwiw, our Aspie does have a very high IQ. He just can't function.

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http://bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen This is the link for the screening test for Barton. It's free and would give you useful information. She tells how to interpret it and what to do if you fail certain sections.

 

My concern or caution with you pursuing AAS is it may turn out to be too hard in a way that could backfire on you. Because it involves large steps (MUCH larger than Barton), it could be too hard and turn him off to the approach entirely. You might be safer using a program with much smaller steps that is actually intended for dyslexia and then, as the others said, jump him up to AAS if he's ready for a faster program after a couple levels.

 

I say this because my ds, who has verbal apraxia (which is common in autism), got into AAR pre and just couldn't get anywhere with it. AAR/AAS is fabulous stuff, so I'm not dissing it. I'm just cautioning you that the steps are bigger and for someone who may need small, incremental steps due to ID on top of an LD, it just seems to me the very careful, tiny steps of Barton might be more attainable. My ds was insta-frustration with AAR pre. It had no tools to break through when he didn't understand something. Barton never puts me in that position. It has words to repeat every section of every lesson, so you can repeat as needed and still have fresh material. The steps are small. Barton was in computers (programming? I forget) before she started doing dyslexia tutoring. She just has every little cognitive step broken down so carefully. The AAR/AAS material is great, but it's not trying to do that. It's really intended for a faster audience. And given that some kids with ASD/ADHD will get an idea/conclusion in their head and that's just the END of it, I'd just encourage you to look at Barton again. My ds does that, getting ideas in his head. He's a floater too, where we thought he might go ASD and he went ADHD plus the dyslexia.

 

Anyways, that's my caution. At least do the pretest. It might give you information that would let you know another step *before* your intended AAR/AAS would be good. And it's free and takes about 20 minutes. :)

Is it possible to break down AAS? I already own it and Barton is not po$$ible. I do completely understand the "investment in the future" theory, but I can't afford to invest. The money is just not there. I can't pull from other accounts or anything like that. My income is so low that our YMCA family membership for a YEAR is $25.

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Our state offers disability scholarships and the tier 2 (LD, minor physical, or ID) gets you $10K a year through providers for services.  We have cyber and charter schools that have certified OG tutors on staff who can give OG training for partially enrolled homeschoolers.  There are charities like the Scottish Rite that do tutoring.  Have you looked to see what those resources are in your state/area?  Before you were just thinking problem, but if you said it's actually an LD, it's actually dyslexia, what would be your options?  

 

I'm sorry to even mention those if you can't get those where you live.  On the other hand, some people don't realize what's out there.  

 

You know, before I'd ponder whether AAS will be Barton if slowed down, I'd do the Barton pre-test (free!) and see what you get.  That will give you information on his working memory and basic phonemic awareness to see whether he's ready for ANY program or needs some other steps first.

 

PS.  How many levels of AAS do you have?  And did you pay for them or receive them?  Are they in resaleable condition?  Obviously that gives you a bunch of options.  I'd still encourage you to do that pretest first, just to see what you get.  

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Our state looks good on paper, but nothing has made it up to our county.

 

I only have 1 and 2 AAS, in perfect condition.

 

It's possible that we have grants available, but sadly any money coming in would reduce assistance.

 

I had considered a cyber school, but the cons outweigh the pros.

 

I'll give him the free test as soon as his mood allows. :)

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AAS slowed down is not Barton (or Wilson, or any other OG program).  It may be enough for your kid though.  Give it a try since it is what you have, just keep your eyes open for "resistance."  With these kids, it is sadly easier for them to pitch a fit and emotionally cripple the entire room than to politely convince an exhausted mom who just-retaught-this-for-the-zillionth-time that they truly can't remember what ild says.  

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Just thinking outside the box, can you barter or rent?  Can you contact Barton or use her site or however it is you find her certified tutors, and ask them if you could *rent* Barton 1?  Or maybe barter, doing some service for them in exchange for tutoring?

 

If you do the Barton pretest, you might post the results and see what people think.  The irony is that AAR would be more appropriate for your ds than AAS.  

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AAS slowed down is not Barton (or Wilson, or any other OG program). It may be enough for your kid though. Give it a try since it is what you have, just keep your eyes open for "resistance." With these kids, it is sadly easier for them to pitch a fit and emotionally cripple the entire room than to politely convince an exhausted mom who just-retaught-this-for-the-zillionth-time that they truly can't remember what ild says.

I know AAS wouldn't be the same as Barton, I'm just going to try working with what we have right now.

 

He has a hard time in the moment, but will often have something click or stick the next day. So if I show him how to multiply using cars, he won't get it, but will tomorrow morning. I usually walk him through several problems and then a gazillion more on day 1. Then day 2 he takes over.

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Geezle has a similar profile although he might be a bit less resistant than your son, OP. Apples and Pears is the only thing that really improved his spelling. They also have a reading program, but Geezle had done Rewards Intermediate so we didn't use it. He's been doing A&P for three years and is in Level C. We even continued afterschooling with it. It simply works better than anything else.

 

http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/

 

They have the whole books posted to look at but you can't print them. You could perhaps make your own worksheets and read the teacher book off the computer until you can buy them.

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On the Barton site, it says that the iq must be over 70, so obviously my 78ish kid can also have dyslexia.

 

It also says that there must not be a diagnosis of expressive language disorder. That was my son's first (and still stands) diagnosis. Does anyone know why Barton excludes expressive language disorder?

 

I'm absolutely going to give him the screening tomorrow. I'm still going forward with our current plans, but I won't be too disappointed if he doesn't make too much progress.

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Hey, I'm just doing googlefu here, but on her powerpoint presentation Barton adds the word SEVERE and has that note under speaks and understands english.  In other words, there are kids who are non-verbal or have serious challenges that affect their ability to do the basic physical tasks of the program, and with them you would use other techniques.  Barton requires speaking.  Barton requires comprehension.  My ds has apraxia, but can speak.  His comprehension is actually really odd, with very low scores for single sentence comprehension.  I can still make Barton work.  I retype all her reading samples so there are single sentences on a sheet of paper and we slow down and talk about the words and phrases.  He doesn't typically understand when he first reads the sentence, so we have to go through the whole thing.  Pronouns are totally lost on him, so we have to go back and look at the previous page to find out the antecedent.  He makes beautiful progress with Barton doing this!

 

So I think she's just saying he needs to be able to handle the physical approach.  She has them speaking, answering questions, and reading words aloud.  If he can't physically do that, he's not ready.  There are other methods for teaching non-verbal children to read.  But just having the historical diagnosis (like my ds with his apraxia, which left him non-verbal at 2), not a problem.  

 

But that's just my googlefu and how it seems to me, having used Barton 1-3.

 

Here's the link I'm reading at.  https://www.bartonreading.com/pdf/Homeschool%20Handout.pdf

 

And here she clarifies  http://www.bartonreading.com/tutors.html that they need to be able to speak and comprehend at the 2nd grade level.  If he has that, you're fine.  Scroll down the page.  She answers that under "struggling for some other reason."  So again, it's not a mysterious statement of his historical diagnosis but a question of how much it is impacting him right now and whether it physically prevents him from being able to do the program.  

 

Hmm, that 2nd grade level comprehension is probably why my ds is having issues, lol.  But that's ok.  I love how thorough she is and how carefully she has thought out things.  I feel like we're digging in on his comprehension issues in a way (via grammar) that I wouldn't have anticipated or even hoped to achieve with him.  It has been sort of the delightful surprise along with making some reading progress.

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I did see that severe part added. :)

 

Your explanation makes sense. My ds was non-verbal at 2 too. Functionally non verbal until 3.

 

His vocabulary and receptive language are very low (he tests very high in receptive, but put the tests aside and talk to him and it's clear he's not following a conversation). It makes it difficult to explain things. Sometimes he'll nod along and even participate, but you get to a point where you ask a question and he has a deer in headlights look.

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Do you use audiobooks with him?  Your library probably has ebooks and audiobooks you can download.  Our library has started loaning audiobooks that come in an mp3 player, meaning you don't even have to have a device to use them.  They literally come complete.  Talk with your librarian.

 

My ds tests fine in receptive language from a speech therapy standpoint.  It was the neuropsych who found this difference in comprehension.  With him, the single sentence comprehension is very poor (which I assume is language processing issues due to the dyslexia and apraxia) and his comprehension scores improve with larger samples.  

 

Comprehension in conversation would be very complex.  On top of comprehension issues, he also may not have been attending.  

 

When your autism testing was done, did they give you a processing speed score?  It would be part of the WISC.  That also might explain some of the conversation stuff.  My dd will do deer in the headlights to a question too, and it's because she has low processing speed.  

 

Well I hope whatever you do ends up working out well for you!  :)

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That's why I was kind of parsing the comprehension thing there, because that's how my ds is.  He listens to audiobooks all the time, including Swiss Family Robinson, the unabridged Three Musketeers, etc.  He clearly comprehends in the gestalt and doesn't have a receptive language issue from the ST perspective.  But when you look at his testing from the psych, there's this huge discrepancy between single sentence and paragraph comprehension.  

 

So when we try to read, he's got the difficulty of decoding AND not really comprehending precisely what in the world he's reading.  And even basic words like IT are lost on him.  He won't have any clue or connect that IT to the antecedent in the line before.  The who/what/where discussions around phrases in Barton have been very good for him.  He doesn't actually comprehend those either.  He's starting to better and the SLP has worked on them.  I have a workbook just on the WH words, where you look at a picture and answer basic questions.  It's very hard for him.  (that would be influenced by fatigue, attention, the motor planning of speech, etc., the fact that it involves work, not just whether he comprehends the WH words, nevertheless it was striking to me how much he struggle as I thought he wouldn't)

 

So that's what I love about Barton, that she has woven in these language processing issues and hits them.  She also has additional exercises for every step in every lesson.  If the ones in the manual aren't enough, she has more available online.  Barton just brings a ton more to the table than AAR/AAS, because they're marketed for different purposes.  I understand you have financial realities.  I'm just thinking maybe if you understand the differences, you find other ways to work on those things or decide how much effort it's worth to try to trade/borrow/rent.  And I do agree you could try what you have first.  It's just funny to me, because it seems like if you thought he could do AAS you'd already be doing it, kwim?  Like you have it so we wouldn't be having this discussion?  So then you do the Barton pretest and see what that shows, because that might explain why you haven't chosen to do the materials you already have, that maybe they're not the right next step.

 

But I agree, it's hard.  I hope you can get it worked out.

 

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  He clearly comprehends in the gestalt and doesn't have a receptive language issue from the ST perspective.  But when you look at his testing from the psych, there's this huge discrepancy between single sentence and paragraph comprehension. 

 

This is what we saw on DD2's testing from December. The single sentence comprehension was extremely poor (one of the lowest subscores of all her testing) but the paragraph comprehension was much higher (still low compared to a typical kid though). It makes sense in light of the hearing loss since she's able to hear some sounds but not others. Imagine a cell phone conversation where the signal keeps cutting in and out. The longer the other person talks, the more you're going to be able to get the gist of what's being said. Not a very good understanding but better than from a single sentence.

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This is what we saw on DD2's testing from December. The single sentence comprehension was extremely poor (one of the lowest subscores of all her testing) but the paragraph comprehension was much higher (still low compared to a typical kid though). It makes sense in light of the hearing loss since she's able to hear some sounds but not others. Imagine a cell phone conversation where the signal keeps cutting in and out. The longer the other person talks, the more you're going to be able to get the gist of what's being said. Not a very good understanding but better than from a single sentence.

Ok, that makes sense. :)

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He's sooooooooooo worried about "missing something" that he won't let me watch the student screening video alone! 

 

On task A (counting words)- I think he can do it, but he frequently replaces words. So I wouldn't be surprised to hear him say "The cat ran up A big tree" for "The cat ran up THE big tree." Also, he'll be able to repeat the sentence, but when I ask him to pull down squares as he says it again, he's likely going to have forgotten by then. 

 

Is the A for THE substitution important? If he forgets the sentence on second repeat, what should I do?

 

Obviously I haven't even given it yet, but I've sat through so many speech evals, I know his general patterns.

 

I hope to come back and say he surprised me and did well!

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The goal IS to fail it.  I know that sounds screwy, but Barton doesn't EXPECT the kids to pass. A 5 yo with no disabilities will pass, but yes, for kids like ours, it's just of course they'll fail. So I don't know what you can tell him to make him feel better, but it's the truth.  He's probably going to fail it in 1-3 of the sections, and that will give you information on what your next appropriate step should be.  The fact that he's having trouble with working memory (what you're describing, having trouble remembering the words and pulling down tiles for them) is incredibly instructive and gives you a clue on what your next step needs to include.

 

So maybe tell him you don't EXPECT him to be able to do all of it and that the parts he can do and tries to do are fabulous and enough?  And whip out the candy to reward?   :)

 

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Ok, forget the above. :)

 

Part A passed, I think.

 

Behaviorally, he refused to say the second sentence as is. He tried to refuse saying the first sentence out loud. He missed a square on the fourth sentence, but it was behavior, not ability. Ugh. He makes the most mundane tasks seem like I'm asking for him to cut off the family jewels.

 

Anyway, I'll call it an easy pass because it would have gone flawlessly if he cooperated.

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This is what we saw on DD2's testing from December. The single sentence comprehension was extremely poor (one of the lowest subscores of all her testing) but the paragraph comprehension was much higher (still low compared to a typical kid though). It makes sense in light of the hearing loss since she's able to hear some sounds but not others. Imagine a cell phone conversation where the signal keeps cutting in and out. The longer the other person talks, the more you're going to be able to get the gist of what's being said. Not a very good understanding but better than from a single sentence.

Yes, we had our kids tested about the same time by audiologists.  Ds doesn't have any hearing loss, so in his case it's just the dyslexia.  It will be interesting to see what happens with your dd when they get her hearing interventions done.  Might be they'll retest and find she indeed has some language processing issues *on top* of the hearing?  And yes, I think that's what ds is doing, that he just pieces it together as he gets more info.

 

Getting that info changed how I work with him during the day, that's for sure.  I'm much more careful now to bend down and make sure he REALLY understood or repeat things or get eye contact and have him repeat back what I said.  

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Ok, forget the above. :)

 

Part A passed, I think.

 

Behaviorally, he refused to say the second sentence as is. He tried to refuse saying the first sentence out loud. He missed a square on the fourth sentence, but it was behavior, not ability. Ugh. He makes the most mundane tasks seem like I'm asking for him to cut off the family jewels.

 

Anyway, I'll call it an easy pass because it would have gone flawlessly if he cooperated.

The whole thing or section A?  That's good news!

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