To continue AoPS or not...

[Clear Creek]

...that is the question.

 

My 7th grader will be finishing the AoPS Pre-algebra book this month. I had originally planned to go to Jacobs algebra, but now I am unsure. I can see three options, but I have weighed the pros and cons of each and still can't decide. I need to make a decision soon; stopping math is not one of the options. :tongue_smilie:  If anyone has any advice or input, I would really appreciate it. Or suggestions of a fourth option, lol. FWIW, she is my compliant child, so she does not have a strong opinion on the matter and has said she will do whatever book I give her.

 

Option 1: Jacobs Elementary Algebra. Pros: I already own it, she would enjoy it (she liked Jousting Armadillos, which was based off another textbook of his), it has a good reputation of being a solid algebra book. Cons: after completing AoPS pre-algebra, she is really, really overprepared for this textbook. That may not be a bad thing, but I also would like her to be challenged.

 

Option 2: AoPS Intro to Algebra. Pros: it would definitely challenge her, but in a good way. She learns well with the discovery method, and I am very pleased with how much she has learned from the pre-algebra. Cons: I don't know that my poor, old brain is up to helping her when she gets stuck. The course would be totally on her, and I don't think she quite has the maturity to do it completely on her own yet. The AoPS classes are much too quick for her, so they aren't an option. The WTM Academy class looks perfect, but it is starting six months too late...we need to start in two weeks.

 

Option 3: Start Jacobs next month and then re-start algebra with the WTM Academy this fall. Pros: she would have a really solid foundation in algebra if we stretch it out that long. Cons: we would be stretching algebra out for possibly quite a bit longer than it really needs to be. She could be done with algebra this fall/early winter if we start Jacobs next month and stick with it.

 

 

[kiana]

I'd prefer 1 or 2. Can you start AOPS and if she can't hack it, switch to Jacobs? For Jacobs, I'd skim/assign mostly the challenging problem set until I reached new material.

 

Jacobs is a very good book and your option 1 is just fine as well, but I think the challenge is good for a child who can handle it.

[Reefgazer]

I am debating whether or not to continue AoPS also, but for different reasons than you.  DD is using AoPS Pre-Algebra as a supplement; she likes it, and feels she has learned from it (heck, even I feel I've learned from it!).  But when she does some of the tougher problems, she get s lot of them wrong and I don't know of any way to measure her long-term understanding after we review the problems she's missed.  It's hard for me to tell if she's actually getting anything out of it, despite what she says.

[Momling]

I'd go for Option 3. There's plenty of Algebra to go around! We keep cycling back to the trickier bits in each algebra book my daughter has worked through (SYRWL Maths 3, Keys to Algebra, Algebra Survival Guide, Zaccarro's, Foerster). I think a year is not enough to really settle in and understand algebra. My daughter is great at learning the procedure, but word problems are a challenge. We're getting there though!

[8filltheheart]

I don't have an answer for you; you have to decide that. I can share our experience. All of my kids repeat alg at least once. They gor from MUS. Alg (which I use as pre-alg) to Foerster's. My current 10th grader followed Foerster with AoPS online class to see if she might like it (we had tried it briefly between MUS and Foerster.)

 

I have zero regrets with my kids repeating alg with a more complex text. They have all been excellent math students. I had one Ds who loved AoPS and thrived in its methodology. My dd described above, however, does not like AoPS. She is a very strong math student, but she doesn't enjoy its approach. AoPS is great for the students it fits. But it is not the only approach that leads to great outcomes. (Our oldest is a successful engineer and we didn't even know about AoPS back then. ;) )

[Julie of KY]

Whatever you do, I'd make sure you challenge her. If you move to a curriculum that is "easy" for where she's at, it won't do her any good.

[Chrysalis Academy]

If you do start with Jacobs - either option 1 or 3 - Do expect the first 5 chapters to be easy review.  You might test even test your way through those - do the Reviews and only do the lessons that you need to.  Make sure she does the Section 4 problems, some of those are tricky.

 

I say this because my dd did JA and then started Jacobs and the first 5 chapters weren't anything new, she went through one section a day pretty quickly and without much challenge.  Which spoke highly of JA, but I share the concern about lack of challenge.  I am glad I had her do them anyway, I figured the review was a good idea, but since you are specifically wanting challenge and not too much repetition, I mention it.  I'm also looking for the best way to add challenge to Jacobs, and so far Alcumus is what has worked best.  That, and making sure my dd actually does the Section 4 problems! I discovered she had been skipping them.  :cursing:

 

Chapter 6, with the new material, did slow her down quite a bit.  Still very doable, but she had to stop and think and the lessons started taking longer.

[madteaparty]

I am debating whether or not to continue AoPS also, but for different reasons than you. DD is using AoPS Pre-Algebra as a supplement; she likes it, and feels she has learned from it (heck, even I feel I've learned from it!). But when she does some of the tougher problems, she get s lot of them wrong and I don't know of any way to measure her long-term understanding after we review the problems she's missed. It's hard for me to tell if she's actually getting anything out of it, despite what she says.

Same exact issue. Or, we do the harder problems together so I don't know if he got it or just copied what i did...we do these side by side.

I am going to see if he grows into the class/program, because I don't feel like doing AOPs algebra myself. If he does not grow into independence w Aops, we will use Foersters

[madteaparty]

I don't have an answer for you; you have to decide that. I can share our experience. All of my kids repeat alg at least once. They gor from MUS. Alg (which I use as pre-alg) to Foerster's. My current 10th grader followed Foerster with AoPS online class to see if she might like it (we had tried it briefly between MUS and Foerster.)

 

I have zero regrets with my kids repeating alg with a more complex text. They have all been excellent math students. I had one Ds who loved AoPS and thrived in its methodology. My dd described above, however, does not like AoPS. She is a very strong math student, but she doesn't enjoy its approach. AoPS is great for the students it fits. But it is not the only approach that leads to great outcomes. (Our oldest is a successful engineer and we didn't even know about AoPS back then. ;) )

I'm so glad to hear the repeating bit. I did that with preAlgebra and felt so much like improvising. Was planning same on algebra (Foersters/khan followed by aops class) so I feel better that I'm not the only one doing this!

[dereksurfs]

I like Option 3 the best.  AoPS spends less time on fundamental algebraic principles and more on complex, brain twisting problems.  As such it's a good follow-up to another more standard algebra.  In our case we followed AoPS Intro to Algebra with TabletClass Algebra because DS said he didn't feel he had enough 'practice in the fundamentals.'  I know this may vary student to student.  But AoPS definitely has very little in the way of practice or repetition.  The assumption is if you learn it once you know it and will remember it in the future.  Yet that is obviously not always the case.

 

ETA:  one more option.  Go with Jacobs (Option 1) and after finishing each chapter follow-up with AoPS problems from a similar section for added rigor and challenge.  This allows for the most tailoring.  For example you could skip or move quickly through all of that Pre-A review which may be overly redundant.  Then spend more time on the newer material and go deeper with plenty of practice.

[8filltheheart]

I thought I should clarify my children's experiences a little. When my dd tried AoPS after MUS's alg, she went though the first 3 chpts and just did not like the instruction style. We moved to Foester's. After she finished Foester's (which she finished several months early), her brother kept giving her a hard time, so she agreed to take their online alg 1 class. The class was not challenging for her after Foerster's. So if the desire is more challenge, I don't think I would use those two sequentially.

 

Otoh, this dd is a very strong math student who doesn't like math, but her ease with upper level math courses definitely rests on her rock solid alg foundation. So I don't think it was a waste of time, either. (Just to keep the timeline in perspective, she completed MUS's alg and geo in 6th and both Foerster's and AoPS in 7th.)

 

Ds's experience is different. We found out about AoPS mid-8th grade. In 8th he finished up Foerster's alg2, AoPS counting and probability, and their online alg 3. He stuck with AoPS through cal. He was on autopilot for those classes, did not supplement (except for studying for the BC exam) and believes that AoPS was the best decision we made. (He is now a physics and math double major. :) )

 

Dd, otoh, wants to major in something language related.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Another option is you can use AoPS as a supplement.  They have other AoPS books.  We are currently using this one:

 

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/viewitem.php?item=ps:aops1

[chiguirre]

Option 1: Jacobs Elementary Algebra.

 

Option 2: AoPS Intro to Algebra.  The AoPS classes are much too quick for her, so they aren't an option. The WTM Academy class looks perfect, but it is starting six months too late...we need to start in two weeks.

 

Option 3: Start Jacobs next month and then re-start algebra with the WTM Academy this fall. Pros: she would have a really solid foundation in algebra if we stretch it out that long. Cons: we would be stretching algebra out for possibly quite a bit longer than it really needs to be. She could be done with algebra this fall/early winter if we start Jacobs next month and stick with it.

 

I'm in the same boat you are. T had done Saxon Algebra 1 through lesson 48 when the WTMA AOPS class was announced. That class is exactly what I was looking for. AOPS, but with video/audio instruction--not just text (that would drive T nuts) and a slower pace. There will be a teacher who can answer questions well and other students to compete with. I posted a very similar question a couple of days ago. I got some good answers.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542771-so-weve-got-about-7-months-and-could-do-any-math-we-wanted-what-would-you-do/

 

In the meantime, we started doing the AOPS pre-algebra text with the videos on their website. They aren't as challenging if you've already started algebra, but it's a great way to get into the AOPS groove.

 

At the same time, I went through and printed out the practice exams from the Keys to Algebra books. I realized we'd covered about 2/3 of the topics they do. We need to do an introduction of FOIL, graphing and quadratic equations. Once those topics are done, we'll have covered all the basics of algebra 1 at an easy level. I think that will make tackling AOPS easier.

 

I think I'll do the same thing for the Keys to Geometry books if we have time. Another alternative is to do AOPS' Counting and Probability book because there are videos posted for that one as well. The videos make math so much easier for T and give me a quick refresher so I can help her out if she gets stuck.

 

Clear Creek, your dd is going into 8th grade, so Algebra 1 might be the usual advanced math depending on your local schools. Some places let some kids do Alg 1 in 7th grade, but in my area all the schools start in 8th. If you're in a place where 8th is the advanced pace, I wouldn't hesitate to do the WTM class. If you're in a 7th grade state, I personally would use the Jacobs and keep going. You want her to have taken "the most challenging classes available" if she can. You could go through the AOPS videos and use alcumus to add challenge to the Jacob's text. Or just get the AOPS book and do the problems after you've covered the topics in Jacob's. If you take 12 months to cover algebra using both books, you'll have laid a firm foundation.

[Alte Veste Academy]

What about an option 4? Jacobs supplemented with Foerster. That is what my DD is doing.

[Meriwether]

I have no prior experience, but I plan to have Dd11 start with Jacobs and move to AoPS. I'm not sure it is the best option, but she is young enough that I think two rounds of Algebra will be a good thing. I want a solid foundation for her. She is quick but not gifted and math is not her thing.

[Reefgazer]

Do you happen know if there are any associated tests or evaluations for AoPS?

Same exact issue. Or, we do the harder problems together so I don't know if he got it or just copied what i did...we do these side by side.
I am going to see if he grows into the class/program, because I don't feel like doing AOPs algebra myself. If he does not grow into independence w Aops, we will use Foersters

 

[madteaparty]

Do you happen know if there are any associated tests or evaluations for AoPS?

You know, I think posters that went before us (perhaps regentrude) posted homemade tests for algebra (cannot recall prealgebra) but I failed to bookmark those links...

[Arcadia]

You know, I think posters that went before us (perhaps regentrude) posted homemade tests for algebra (cannot recall prealgebra) but I failed to bookmark those links...

#8 of link

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/447321-does-aops-have-tests/

[JoJosMom]

Do you happen know if there are any associated tests or evaluations for AoPS?

 

 

You know, I think posters that went before us (perhaps regentrude) posted homemade tests for algebra (cannot recall prealgebra) but I failed to bookmark those links...

 

 

#8 of link

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/447321-does-aops-have-tests/

 

Oh, bless you all!  I was just sharing my angst over AoPS algebra on another thread, logged off to check on the horses, and had a revelation: Maybe I just need an objective measure of DD's performance. I check my computer upon my return and, VOILA! Others have the same problem and someone has already provided the solution! Thank you!

[texasmama]

Subbing to find later when I'm at home.

[madteaparty]

#8 of link

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/447321-does-aops-have-tests/

Thank you thank you!!

[Reefgazer]

Awesome! thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for for!

#8 of link

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/447321-does-aops-have-tests/

[Clear Creek]

I am debating whether or not to continue AoPS also, but for different reasons than you.  DD is using AoPS Pre-Algebra as a supplement; she likes it, and feels she has learned from it (heck, even I feel I've learned from it!).  But when she does some of the tougher problems, she get s lot of them wrong and I don't know of any way to measure her long-term understanding after we review the problems she's missed.  It's hard for me to tell if she's actually getting anything out of it, despite what she says.

 

My daughter does not do the starred problems when we do the chapter; I have her do the challenge problems from earlier chapters in order to evaluate her progress and see what she has retained (I usally assign them from about three chapters behind where she is working).

 

[Clear Creek]

I'm in the same boat you are. T had done Saxon Algebra 1 through lesson 48 when the WTMA AOPS class was announced. That class is exactly what I was looking for. AOPS, but with video/audio instruction--not just text (that would drive T nuts) and a slower pace. There will be a teacher who can answer questions well and other students to compete with. I posted a very similar question a couple of days ago. I got some good answers.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542771-so-weve-got-about-7-months-and-could-do-any-math-we-wanted-what-would-you-do/

 

In the meantime, we started doing the AOPS pre-algebra text with the videos on their website. They aren't as challenging if you've already started algebra, but it's a great way to get into the AOPS groove.

 

At the same time, I went through and printed out the practice exams from the Keys to Algebra books. I realized we'd covered about 2/3 of the topics they do. We need to do an introduction of FOIL, graphing and quadratic equations. Once those topics are done, we'll have covered all the basics of algebra 1 at an easy level. I think that will make tackling AOPS easier.

 

I think I'll do the same thing for the Keys to Geometry books if we have time. Another alternative is to do AOPS' Counting and Probability book because there are videos posted for that one as well. The videos make math so much easier for T and give me a quick refresher so I can help her out if she gets stuck.

 

Clear Creek, your dd is going into 8th grade, so Algebra 1 might be the usual advanced math depending on your local schools. Some places let some kids do Alg 1 in 7th grade, but in my area all the schools start in 8th. If you're in a place where 8th is the advanced pace, I wouldn't hesitate to do the WTM class. If you're in a 7th grade state, I personally would use the Jacobs and keep going. You want her to have taken "the most challenging classes available" if she can. You could go through the AOPS videos and use alcumus to add challenge to the Jacob's text. Or just get the AOPS book and do the problems after you've covered the topics in Jacob's. If you take 12 months to cover algebra using both books, you'll have laid a firm foundation.

 

Your last paragraph is really helping me make my decision. In my area (and I am pretty sure all of Texas) Algebra I is not offered until 9th grade, period. There is zero differentiation/acceleration in middle school (I have a relative that teaches in a local middle school, so I know this is a fact in my area). So my daughter completing Algebra I in 8th grade is as far ahead as I want to put her; I don't want her starting Geometry in 8th grade. I don't have to follow local graduation requirements, but Texas universities have explicit requirements that they want to see in applicants for admission that align with the graduation requirements. My daughter wants to attend A&M, and they want to see the foundation plan with one endorsement (for her that would be STEM since she really wants to go into a science field), plus the distinguished level of achievement. That is fancy speak for 4 English, 4 Math, 4 Science, 4 Social Studies, 1 PE, 1 Fine arts, 3 Foreign language, and 5 electives. One of those electives has to be in either math or science for the endorsement (preferably a 5th math and a 5th science). Texas students all start those 5 math credits with Algebra I. If my daughter is starting with Geometry (or Algebra II) in 9th grade, she still needs 5 math credits to remain competitive, so she still has to double up on math one year. I imagine that the higher she gets in math, the harder it will be to do that. It is most common for students around here to double up with Algebra II and Geometry. As long as my daughter finishes Algebra I in 8th grade (and even starts, but doesn't finish Geometry), she can earn credit for Algebra II and Geometry in 9th grade. That way she can take additional math or accelerate math if she chooses to later in high school, but she isn't forced to.

 

[Clear Creek]

I like Option 3 the best.  AoPS spends less time on fundamental algebraic principles and more on complex, brain twisting problems.  As such it's a good follow-up to another more standard algebra.  In our case we followed AoPS Intro to Algebra with TabletClass Algebra because DS said he didn't feel he had enough 'practice in the fundamentals.'  I know this may vary student to student.  But AoPS definitely has very little in the way of practice or repetition.  The assumption is if you learn it once you know it and will remember it in the future.  Yet that is obviously not always the case.

 

ETA:  one more option.  Go with Jacobs (Option 1) and after finishing each chapter follow-up with AoPS problems from a similar section for added rigor and challenge.  This allows for the most tailoring.  For example you could skip or move quickly through all of that Pre-A review which may be overly redundant.  Then spend more time on the newer material and go deeper with plenty of practice.

 

 

I don't have an answer for you; you have to decide that. I can share our experience. All of my kids repeat alg at least once. They gor from MUS. Alg (which I use as pre-alg) to Foerster's. My current 10th grader followed Foerster with AoPS online class to see if she might like it (we had tried it briefly between MUS and Foerster.)

 

I have zero regrets with my kids repeating alg with a more complex text. They have all been excellent math students. I had one Ds who loved AoPS and thrived in its methodology. My dd described above, however, does not like AoPS. She is a very strong math student, but she doesn't enjoy its approach. AoPS is great for the students it fits. But it is not the only approach that leads to great outcomes. (Our oldest is a successful engineer and we didn't even know about AoPS back then. ;) )

 

Thank you both for your thoughts; you have reinforced my idea of extending/doubling up on algebra. I think I will do a run through Jacobs at her pace, then either sign her up for the AoPS algebra class at WTMA (if I have the money...) or start her in the Intro to Algebra book at home. I just saw on another thread that they now have videos for the first 13 chapters of the Intro to Algebra book, which will be very helpful - the videos were a lifesaver for my daughter in pre-algebra, and for some reason I thought that they didn't yet have any for Algebra.

[texasmama]

Your last paragraph is really helping me make my decision. In my area (and I am pretty sure all of Texas) Algebra I is not offered until 9th grade, period. There is zero differentiation/acceleration in middle school (I have a relative that teaches in a local middle school, so I know this is a fact in my area). So my daughter completing Algebra I in 8th grade is as far ahead as I want to put her; I don't want her starting Geometry in 8th grade. I don't have to follow local graduation requirements, but Texas universities have explicit requirements that they want to see in applicants for admission that align with the graduation requirements. My daughter wants to attend A&M, and they want to see the foundation plan with one endorsement (for her that would be STEM since she really wants to go into a science field), plus the distinguished level of achievement. That is fancy speak for 4 English, 4 Math, 4 Science, 4 Social Studies, 1 PE, 1 Fine arts, 3 Foreign language, and 5 electives. One of those electives has to be in either math or science for the endorsement (preferably a 5th math and a 5th science). Texas students all start those 5 math credits with Algebra I. If my daughter is starting with Geometry (or Algebra II) in 9th grade, she still needs 5 math credits to remain competitive, so she still has to double up on math one year. I imagine that the higher she gets in math, the harder it will be to do that. It is most common for students around here to double up with Algebra II and Geometry. As long as my daughter finishes Algebra I in 8th grade (and even starts, but doesn't finish Geometry), she can earn credit for Algebra II and Geometry in 9th grade. That way she can take additional math or accelerate math if she chooses to later in high school, but she isn't forced to.

 

As an aside, in my part of Texas, Algebra 1 in 8th is offered for accelerated students. This was the case even in 1980, when I took Algebra 1 in 8th grade.

[wapiti]

.

[Clear Creek]

As an aside, in my part of Texas, Algebra 1 in 8th is offered for accelerated students. This was the case even in 1980, when I took Algebra 1 in 8th grade.

 

 

FWIW, I'm pretty sure my relative took algebra 1 last year, in 7th grade, in a large public middle school in TX.  (It's likely that he is in a G&T program.)

 

I stand corrected; upon further investigation it seems that Algebra I is offered in 8th grade (what the heck was my BIL talking about?? I knew he wasn't to be trusted :lol: ). I can't find where my district offers it earlier than 8th, but it looks like advanced students can take it then. Maybe it wasn't offered for a short time? I have several friends with high schoolers in the local high schools (two separate districts), and they complained that their kids couldn't take algebra until high school, even though they were advanced students. Maybe the class is not common knowledge? I know I had to do some digging; the district website does not offer a lot of information about the courses offered in middle school.

 

Lots of misinformation floating around here; good thing I have you guys to help me! :hurray:

[Soror]

What about an option 4? Jacobs supplemented with Foerster. That is what my DD is doing.

Want to elaborate? I've pretty much ruled out AoPS for ds, although he likes BA well enough I think Jacobs will fit him better but I've also considered Foresters. So I guess we could supplement or follow Jacobs with Foresters.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Want to elaborate? I've pretty much ruled out AoPS for ds, although he likes BA well enough I think Jacobs will fit him better but I've also considered Foresters. So I guess we could supplement or follow Jacobs with Foresters.

 

Yeah, DD and I ruled out AoPS for DD too (too much straight text for her). Jacobs has been fantastic, a perfect fit for her, but I heard so much about the fabulous word problems in Foerster that I wanted to supplement with it. DD has been doing SM's CWP all along, so I'm pretty much continuing on in the same way, a main program with a word problem supplement. 

[texasmama]

Yeah, DD and I ruled out AoPS for DD too (too much straight text for her). Jacobs has been fantastic, a perfect fit for her, but I heard so much about the fabulous word problems in Foerster that I wanted to supplement with it. DD has been doing SM's CWP all along, so I'm pretty much continuing on in the same way, a main program with a word problem supplement. 

The Foerster text has some WICKED word problems.  :)

[Chrysalis Academy]

You guys!!! You are going to make me buy Foerster's to go with Jacobs, aren't you?  A pox on both your houses!!  ;)  :D

[texasmama]

You guys!!! You are going to make me buy Foerster's to go with Jacobs, aren't you?  A pox on both your houses!!  ;)  :D

Well, it is a cheap text.  ;)  (Unlike Jacobs!) 

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.  :D

[Soror]

Yeah, DD and I ruled out AoPS for DD too (too much straight text for her). Jacobs has been fantastic, a perfect fit for her, but I heard so much about the fabulous word problems in Foerster that I wanted to supplement with it. DD has been doing SM's CWP all along, so I'm pretty much continuing on in the same way, a main program with a word problem supplement. 

Thanks for your thoughts... more to consider.

[madteaparty]

Well, it is a cheap text.  ;)  (Unlike Jacobs!) 

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.  :D

Well the text is, but then the videos, and the solution manual :) :) Good thing I'm not good at math (LOL).

[texasmama]

Well the text is, but then the videos, and the solution manual :) :) Good thing I'm not good at math (LOL).

I got a teacher's textbook cheap just like I got the student text.  The videos were not cheap, and I never got to use them!  (We switched to an online class.)

 

But for supplementing only, I would just use the teacher's book, probably.   Cheap.  :)

[Alte Veste Academy]

DD and I thought the video samples were boring...embarrassing to say but it did save me money. Richard Rusczyk set the bar far too high. LOL :leaving:

[texasmama]

DD and I thought the video samples were boring...embarrassing to say but it did save me money. Richard Rusczyk set the bar far too high. LOL :leaving:

Now I feel even worse!  Paid for boring stuff I never used!

 

But it would be difficult to compete with Richard R's video presence.

[madteaparty]

Now I feel even worse! Paid for boring stuff I never used!

 

But it would be difficult to compete with Richard R's video presence.

Wait, there's a live class using Foersters?

[chiguirre]

Kolbe's online classes use Foerster.

[texasmama]

Wait, there's a live class using Foersters?

I'm talking about the Math without Borders videos that go along with the Foerster text.