WTM Academy: Intro to Rhetoric or Rhetoric I for 8th grader?

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I received some feedback from the WTM Academy, but I'm still interested in some feedback from parents with kids in the class.  :)

[RootAnn]

I'm looking at Intro to Rhetoric for next year, so I keep my eyes peeled for any info on this one or Rhetoric I. Here's what I can tell you:

 

Snowbeltmom has a kid taking Rhetoric I this year with Thomas Hummel and she recommends it highly. 

Amira also has a kid in Rhetoric I.

Milovany has a kid taking Intro to Rhetoric this year.

Chanley has a kid taking Intro to Rhetoric this year with Kathleen Brian.

 

If you could either PM them with your questions directly ... or PM them to ask them to post on your thread here, that would be GREAT for those coming to this thread later.

:bigear:

[speed.cleaner]

Hello,

 

Below is a copy of a post I wrote on an Australian homeschooling forum. I don't often post here as I find I rarely have any overly relevant information or particularly useful insight to add to wealth of incredible knowledge that is readily available here. However in this case I see that I may actually be able to help.
 

 

I am not sure how useful this post will be to anyone else, but I wanted to share my experience with the WTM Academy as I have found it to be such a huge blessing for our homeschool and wonder if it might not be helpful to somebody else.

 

Since the beginning of this past US school year, DS 15 has been enrolled in the Well Trained Mind Academy's Introduction to Rhetoric writing course.

DS has not always been an enthusiastic writer (I have described as him a reluctant writer in the past) but during the course of his enrollment I have seen a steady and vast improvement in his enthusiasm, confidence, and skill. The course has provided clear direction with incremental instruction and continual development of writing skills. The instructor, Kathleen Brian, is thorough, positive, and encouraging. I think her meaningful feedback and the opportunity to interact with the other class members has been integral to the recent leaps and bounds DS has taken as a writer. I believe the course is providing DS with an excellent foundation for future academic writing as the syllabus focuses on expository writing and covers the core material from Susan Wise Bauer's Writing with Skill levels 1, 2, & 3. At the beginning of the course I was able to purchase PDFs of all three student texts for the price of one.

 

Although the course may seem expensive (and certainly was a lot cheaper when the Australian dollar was a lot stronger) I feel I have received excellent value for money. After a few initial technical difficulties which were quickly cleared up, the course has been very easy to implement. DS is a fan of the Blackboard learning environment and is independent in his management of assignments. Regular feedback on student progress is provided throughout the year, and I have found the staff approachable and very helpful. DS's class meets twice weekly between 6pm — 7pm New York time which translates into somewhere between 8am — 9am and 10am — 11am Sydney time depending on daylight savings.

 

Pre-registration for the 2015/16 courses begins February 16, and I think there may be an early bird + multiple course/family discounts during the pre-registration period. Courses are offered from middle and high school levels for writing, literature, history, science, math, and electives.

 

I am aware that this post may sound like an advertisement, but I would like to reassure you that this review has not been solicited nor have I received (or will I receive) any reimbursement as a result of writing this. The only possible personal benefit lies in the fact that the more people from non US time zones who show interest in the academy program, the more likely they are to offer classes at times to suit me.

 

 

 I also wrote this post in response to a question regarding the cost and level of work.

 

 

I thought my son was ready for the work, and I was beginning to really struggle to teach it. I went to school during the learn English by osmosis 80's and am a graphic designer by trade, so teaching academic writing based upon my own pre-existing skills and experience was not really ever an option, and it was taking more time than I had available keeping up with the work required. It was a huge relief for me to move into the role of cheer squad captain rather than coach! Last year a full year course cost US $500 + US $60 for student registration. Fortunately I was able to get an early bird discount that reduced the cost of the course to US $400 + US $60 student registration. I'm actually not 100% sure what the course price is this year (I can't seem to find the details) but the registration cost is still US $60.

 

The course DS is doing at the moment is the Introduction to Rhetoric one year catch up course. They started with simple summaries and are now writing expository essays. (The last one DS wrote had over 1100 words.) In the couple of years before starting this course DS worked through Wordsmith Apprentice (which he enjoyed) and the first 24 weeks WWS 1 (which he thought was much more like work). I guess for for me one of the best things about this course is that although DS still sees writing as work, it is work that he now derives a certain amount pleasure from.

 

 

Hope that helps,

Angela

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Thank you, RootAnn and speed.cleaner!  Very helpful!

 

Speed.cleaner, you should definitely post more often.  :)  BTW, how much time does your DS spend on this course per week?  Is his writing graded?

[speed.cleaner]

BTW, how much time does your DS spend on this course per week?  Is his writing graded?

 

DS estimates that he spends somewhere between 8-12 hours per week in addition to the 2 hours of class time. (However, I really am not sure if how quickly he works in comparison to others! It sure would be interesting to know the average.)

 

The initial writing projects in this class were not graded, but the students were made aware that grading would begin after Thanksgiving. However, after consultation with the instructor, I chose not to have my son's writing graded in lieu of a 'final writeup that speaks to his growth as an individual'. (I wanted the focus to be on obtaining writing skills rather than obtaining an 'A'. Also, Australia's high school structure differs from the US, and the need to have a grade either for reporting or college entry is not an issue at this stage.)

 

Hope that helps,

Angela

[RootAnn]

DS estimates that he spends somewhere between 8-12 hours per week in addition to the 2 hours of class time. (However, I really am not sure if how quickly he works in comparison to others! It sure would be interesting to know the average.)

 

:svengo: Someone else posted their kid's estimated time on another thread (eta:  found it!) and it was 1-2 hours per day. I'm hoping it won't take that long for my dd#1. If it does, she'll never get her other work done.  :ohmy:

[fastforward]

:svengo: Someone else posted their kid's estimated time on another thread (eta:  found it!) and it was 1-2 hours per day. I'm hoping it won't take that long for my dd#1. If it does, she'll never get her other work done.  :ohmy:

We'll have really long weeks if it regularly takes that long for my DD, so I completely understand how you feel.

[mbrady]

My 9th grader has taken rhetoric 1 this year and has really enjoyed it. It has been her most challenging class. It is very different from writing with skill, maybe not as structured. She has had to put a lot more thought into her writing. I would say that WWS is process centered, and rhetoric is idea centered. Her assignments have been much longer (1000-2000 words a week). Ms. Richardson has been a wonderful instructor. She is encouraging, positive, and gives excellent feedback. This course has brought her to tears many days, but she wants to take rhetoric 2 with Ms. Richardson next year.

[dereksurfs]

Is it just me or does 2+ hours per day for 'one' middle school writing course seem excessive?  I guess it depends how many other solid, demanding classes a young student has.  They certainly all can't require 2+ hours per day.  This is especially the case when one factors in other extra curricular activities including hobbies, interests, chores, and (some?) free time to play and just be a kid.  Oh, and at this age they still need sleep.  Call me crazy.  I don't know.  It just seems a bit much.  

 

If this is the price of 'rigor' I would think its too high for some.  I am expanding this to even include high school freshman, which ds13 will be this Fall.  In our case I would say its definitely not worth it.  I guess this must vary on a per family basis.  While I want ds13 to have good writing skills and training I don't think he needs to spend anywhere near 2 hours a day doing it, especially for one class.  

[fastforward]

DS estimates that he spends somewhere between 8-12 hours per week in addition to the 2 hours of class time. (However, I really am not sure if how quickly he works in comparison to others! It sure would be interesting to know the average.)

The bolding is mine, but to be fair to speed.cleaner's DS, both his mother and all of us do not know how quickly he is working.  I think we've all experienced a time when a child really drags out work (in our minds) because of meticulous work habits, or even just plain dawdling.  

 

I don't necessarily think that every child spends this much time on each writing assignment, and maybe even speed.cleaner's DS spends this much time *every* time on his Intro. to Rhetoric work.  He may even think it takes *forever* which could equal that large amount of time (2-12 hours per week) when it actually takes less than that.

[dereksurfs]

It would be good to hear from some of the others who are taking the course to get a better average.  To be clear though most seem to agree that this is not a light class.  Rather it's a serious, college prep, high school writing course.  

 

Maybe I am overreacting to what seems 'to me' as unreasonable for one such course.  But 2+ hours might seem ok for others?  And I'm ok with that, really.  Because I think 2+ hours is ok for other subjects such as math in some cases.  I admit that is my bias.  I guess I just can't imagine a child writing for 2+ hours for this class. Then possibly having to write some more for other subjects as well such as history all in a day's work.  I have seen other popular college prep writing courses state that one should expect to spend 10+ hours per week on their courses.  So I don't think 8-12 hours is really uncommon in some circles.

 

ETA: I found this in their FAQ: "You should set aside at least 4 hours of study time outside of class for every hour of classroom instruction."  This equates to 10 hours when combined with the 2 hour class time, or 2 hours per day if not counting weekends which I don't.

[RootAnn]

Derek - I thought about throwing the math comparison out there, but decided to keep mum. My dd#1 never spends two hours on math in a day, although she can hit 1 1/2 hrs for a long or tough assignment. It definitely doesn't happen that often. She loves math.

For some of us, this Intro to Rhetoric class is meant to be a high school class. (ETA:  Yep, they list it as "Designed for grades 9-11.) Obviously, speed.cleaner's 15 yr old ds is counting it as such. Balancing that workload on top of a literature component and all her other classes (two foreign languages, Geometry, US History, Physics, and perhaps a semester elective like art, health, or logic) makes for a tough go at my dd's age.

 

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it doesn't take her that long each day. I will perhaps have to drop the expectation of any electives next year. It sounds like Rhetoric I doesn't take as long as the Intro to Rhetoric class. I'm looking for increased writing ability along with some enthusiasm for the topic. Two hours a day will probably not get us any enthusiasm, but I can't imagine her spending that long if she isn't interested.  :confused1:

[dereksurfs]

Derek - I thought about throwing the math comparison out there, but decided to keep mum. My dd#1 never spends two hours on math in a day, although she can hit 1 1/2 hrs for a long or tough assignment. It definitely doesn't happen that often. She loves math.

For some of us, this Intro to Rhetoric class is meant to be a high school class. (ETA:  Yep, they list it as "Designed for grades 9-11.) Obviously, speed.cleaner's 15 yr old ds is counting it as such. Balancing that workload on top of a literature component and all her other classes (two foreign languages, Geometry, US History, Physics, and perhaps a semester elective like art, health, or logic) makes for a tough go at my dd's age.

 

I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it doesn't take her that long each day. I will perhaps have to drop the expectation of any electives next year. It sounds like Rhetoric I doesn't take as long as the Intro to Rhetoric class. I'm looking for increased writing ability along with some enthusiasm for the topic. Two hours a day will probably not get us any enthusiasm, but I can't imagine her spending that long if she isn't interested.  :confused1:

 

RootAnn,

 

I think that is what most are looking for who sign their children up for such classes.  And those are really good goals.  They also perplex me in light of the potential workload.  My son, for example, is a reluctant but compliant writer.  He would simply rather be working on math or science where his interests lie more.  So I cannot imagine him writing for two hours daily and being happy about it, no matter how fabulous the teacher or course.  Then I read some of glowing reviews and it sounds almost too good to be true, like the wonders of AoPS math for some.  I am not at all doubting the sincerity of these posters nor their students.  Yet I can't help but think it is not for everyone, like AoPS is not for every student.  

 

I was joking a bit about this last night with my wife saying this sounds like the AoPS of writing - super challenging, frustrating (bringing some to tears), wonderful, etc...  The one nice thing with AoPS, as difficult as it can sometimes be, is you can at least vary the pace if you teach it.  With a class like this once you are committed, that's it. You're along for the ride at that pace and workload for the entire year.  As Mbrady said it was her daughter's 'most difficult class.'  And even though it brought her to tears she wants to take it again next year.  That sounds like an AoPS kind of experience to me.   ;)

[speed.cleaner]

Hi dereksurfs, RootAnn, and fastforward,

 

For what it is worth DS is a slow-and-steady-perfectionist kind of guy, so I can easily imagine that others could complete the work in less time, but just how much less is a good question!

 

You will recall from my first post we are from Australia. The school years in my state are from K-12, with high school encompassing 7-12. We do not use a 4 year high school transcript for university entrance, rather the students within the school system complete a Higher School Certificate (HSC) in 11-12 to obtain an Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR) which determines their eligibility for university places. Homeschool students often return to the school system for 11-12 or pursue other pathways to enter university.

 

Therefore, I don't really feel comfortable commenting on how the course fits into US high school and middle school expectations. DS 15 was in AU Year 9 in 2014 (moving AU Year 10 in 2015) and the level of work (according to the description "designed for 9-11") seemed like it would fit. And fortunately for us so far it has. The syllabus along with the TOC for each level of WWS gives a pretty clear idea of the workload required. If I had to hazard a guess, I think I would agree with Derek when he says "...this is not a light class. Rather it's a serious, college prep, high school writing course."

 

I also happen to agree that "writing for 2+ hours per day in this class" and then "having to write some more for other subjects... all in a days work" may have proven a bit much and have adjusted my output expectations for other subjects accordingly. And for me that is a perfect demonstration of the beauty of homeschooling.

[dereksurfs]

Thanks, Angela.  I appreciate the additional insight.

[Dolphin]

I just want to clarify that WWE 1-4 and WWS 1-3 (which are used in expository writing for the Well Trained Mind Academy are separate and different books.) You said she went to private for 2 years, which if it was on a par with Susan's writing would have her in Expository 3 rather than rhetoric. I would look at WWS and make sure she is good with all of that before jumping 3 years ahead of where you were 2 years ago.

 

You might already realize that, but just a gentle reminder that it is a marathon and not a race. You don't want to overwhelm her, her first year back to homeschool  :001_smile:  :001_smile:

 

We love WTM academy. We are doing expository 1 this year and will be doing 3 classes with them in the fall. Writing with Ms. Meyers is my son's favorite class.

[Amira]

My son in 9th grade is in Rhetoric 1 this year. He did WWS 1-3 (we beta tested all three years) before. He's had no trouble with the class and the workload isn't overwhelming at all. Personally, I'd do the intro class rather than diving right into Rhetoric 1 in 8th grade.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that last year, they allowed students to switch between classes if it became obvious that they weren't in the appropriate level. We didn't do that ourselves, and I don't know if they'll be able to be as flexible this year, but it's a possibility.

[dereksurfs]

My son in 9th grade is in Rhetoric 1 this year. He did WWS 1-3 (we beta tested all three years) before. He's had no trouble with the class and the workload isn't overwhelming at all. Personally, I'd do the intro class rather than diving right into Rhetoric 1 in 8th grade.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that last year, they allowed students to switch between classes if it became obvious that they weren't in the appropriate level. We didn't do that ourselves, and I don't know if they'll be able to be as flexible this year, but it's a possibility.

 

Hi Amira,

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  Can you please speak to a few things based on your son's prior work?  What would you estimate is the average time he spends weekly on this course including class time?  Secondly, if he had 'not' done the other WWS courses first do you think this would be much more difficult for him?  Thirdly, is writing something he naturally enjoys and does it come fairly easily for him?

 

Thanks,

[Amira]

Hi Amira,

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Can you please speak to a few things based on your son's prior work? What would you estimate is the average time he spends weekly on this course including class time? Secondly, if he had 'not' done the other WWS courses first do you think this would be much more difficult for him? Thirdly, is writing something he naturally enjoys and does it come fairly easily for him?

 

Thanks,

I definitely think that having done WWS made Rhetoric 1 easier. I certainly don't think it's necessary- there are lots of good ways to prepare for the class- but I'm not convinced that WWE and two years of middle school writing are enough. He probably spends 5-6 hours a week on the class, including class time (I'm not entirely sure about this because he's never needed any input from me about the class). He's always been a good writer and likes doing it.

[kiwik]

Well I would guess most high school courses would be an hour a day plus homework. But writing would be included in English not a subject by itself.

[dereksurfs]

Well I would guess most high school courses would be an hour a day plus homework. But writing would be included in English not a subject by itself.

 

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.  It also seems like a lot more time is wasted during that daily hour of class time.  I remember day dreaming and being 'bored to tears' during most high school English classes.  For homeschool families we have the advantage of maximizing that down time.  With regards to the integration of literature, composition and grammar, yes, it is a one stop shop in high school English.  In that sense it can be a little harder to find something covering all aspects.  And if you have 'two' writing courses (lit and comp) then that can also double the work or time spent.  Since there are only so many hours in the school day and many important and somewhat less important subjects to cover its a real balancing act for sure.

[melmichigan]

My DD will be taking Rhetoric I next year and I'm expecting an hour of work on non class days, similar to what was mentioned in other posts.  That would make perfect sense to me as it's supposed to be a high school credit.  I specifically signed DD up for WTMA writing because I want her to spend more time on her writing.  She is taking an integrated English class this year and I am disappointed in the lack of progress in her writing.  That said, I agree with what Derek said, it's a balancing act for each student.  

 

My younger DD's are taking the Expository I class this year, Expository II next year, etc.  They do not spend that kind of time, nor do I expect it for a middle school class.  Haven taken my oldest through WWS I'm hesitant to think they are spending 10 hours a week on the assignments in WWS1-WWS3, which is what the Intro class covers.  

[fastforward]

.

[snowbeltmom]

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  Can you please speak to a few things based on your son's prior work?  What would you estimate is the average time he spends weekly on this course including class time?  Secondly, if he had 'not' done the other WWS courses first do you think this would be much more difficult for him?  Thirdly, is writing something he naturally enjoys and does it come fairly easily for him?

 

Thanks,

Hi Derek,

Not Amira, but I can answer your questions based on my family's experience.  My 10th grader is enrolled in Rhetoric I.  Including class time, I estimate he spends an additional 2-3 hours per week on the class.  Prior to this class, we used Write at Home courses (highly recommend) and CTY's Crafting the Essay (would not recommend).

 

Unlike his math and science focused siblings, he has always loved to write.  Rhetoric I has been his favorite class ever.  That being said, his older brother would not have enjoyed it, and I don't think I will be signing my daughter up for it either.

[dereksurfs]

Hi Derek,

Not Amira, but I can answer your questions based on my family's experience.  My 10th grader is enrolled in Rhetoric I.  Including class time, I estimate he spends an additional 2-3 hours per week on the class.  Prior to this class, we used Write at Home courses (highly recommend) and CTY's Crafting the Essay (would not recommend).

 

Unlike his math and science focused siblings, he has always loved to write.  Rhetoric I has been his favorite class ever.  That being said, his older brother would not have enjoyed it, and I don't think I will be signing my daughter up for it either.

 

Thanks, snowbeltmom.  Your post in light of the other responses and the website itself demonstrates really how much the amount of effort and therefore time spent varies.  Each child is so different when it comes to writing ability and speed that what can take one an hour can take another significantly longer.  And I'm not even sure if that includes revisions with the WTM papers. Your 10th grader not only loves to write but it seems is relatively efficient with his time spent writing. 

 

I wonder if developmental stage could play a role in this as well?  For example a 10th grader may be much more advanced in his writing skills than he would have been in 7th or 8th grade taking the same course.  The thought of age appropriateness or developmental readiness comes to mind.

 

Thanks for also sharing about Write at Home.  I am considering that as a possibility for future courses.  Can you please describe the level of student - teacher interaction?  I've heard they provide good feedback.  Are there any associated lectures regarding writing techniques or methods?  Or are those typically from a workbook of some kind?  Is the main value added their feedback on papers?

 

Thank you,

[melmichigan]

Unlike his math and science focused siblings, he has always loved to write.  Rhetoric I has been his favorite class ever.  That being said, his older brother would not have enjoyed it, and I don't think I will be signing my daughter up for it either.

Is there any way for you to expand on this?  :)

[snowbeltmom]

I wonder if developmental stage could play a role in this as well?  For example a 10th grader may be much more advanced in his writing skills than he would have been in 7th or 8th grade taking the same course.  The thought of age appropriateness or developmental readiness comes to mind.  I think this is definitely true. 

 

Thanks for also sharing about Write at Home.  I am considering that as a possibility for future courses.  Can you please describe the level of student - teacher interaction?  I've heard they provide good feedback.  Are there any associated lectures regarding writing techniques or methods?  Each paper goes through multiple revisions.  At the beginning of a new paper, there is a lesson that the student has to read before beginning the assignment. There are no live lectures.  The only teacher/student interaction is in the detailed written feedback provided by the instructor.  Or are those typically from a workbook of some kind?  Is the main value added their feedback on papers? Yes, I think the biggest added value is the excellent feedback and the fact that most papers go through multiple revisions. Fwiw, my older son took Write at Home classes exclusively up until the end of 10th grade and then took AP English Language with PA Homeschoolers last year.  His years with Write at Home prepared him well and he received an A in the class. 

 

Thank you,

 

[snowbeltmom]

Is there any way for you to expand on this?   :)

I will try, although I may not articulate it very well.  My younger son has always enjoyed writing and is able to crank out something very quickly that is very well written.  He has enjoyed the live discussions in the class sessions and writing the argumentative papers.  In fact, he has enjoyed this class so much that he asked me to sign him up for the creative writing class this semester with the same instructor he has for Rhetoric I. While my younger son plans to major in computer science, I think he will end up at a liberal arts school getting a B.A. rather than a B.S.

 

My older son, unlike my younger son, does not enjoy writing for the sake of writing. The Rhetoric I class would eat up more of his day than I feel is necessary considering his long-term goals.

 

 

 

 

[dereksurfs]

I will try, although I may not articulate it very well.  My younger son has always enjoyed writing and is able to crank out something very quickly that is very well written.  He has enjoyed the live discussions in the class sessions and writing the argumentative papers.  In fact, he has enjoyed this class so much that he asked me to sign him up for the creative writing class this semester with the same instructor he has for Rhetoric I. While my younger son plans to major in computer science, I think he will end up at a liberal arts school getting a B.A. rather than a B.S.

 

My older son, unlike my younger son, does not enjoy writing for the sake of writing. The Rhetoric I class would eat up more of his day than I feel is necessary considering his long-term goals.

 

Snowbeltmom, I think you have done an excellent job articulating how Rhetoric 1 can be a great fit for one student and not so great a fit for another.  Having two bright sons with varying interests and associated goals is a great way to frame the two cases.  This really helps to paint a fuller picture for those considering such courses for their DC.  What you've described for your younger son seems like an excellent fit because of his love of writing.  He just can't get enough and actually wants more!  Fantastic.  It seems tailor-made for this kind of student.  This goes back to my AoPS analogy and the tremendous praises we have heard about its virtues including students who just love doing that sort of math.  They thrive on it.  And in the case of AoPS there are those for whom it simply isn't a good fit which is perfectly fine as well.  There is a target audience or student certain courses are more geared toward.  Fortunately for us you have one in each camp.

[TarynB]

I received some feedback from the WTM Academy, but I'm still interested in some feedback from parents with kids in the class. :)

Fastforward, would you be comfortable sharing what WTM Academy advised when you asked them about placement?

[melmichigan]

I will try, although I may not articulate it very well.  My younger son has always enjoyed writing and is able to crank out something very quickly that is very well written.  He has enjoyed the live discussions in the class sessions and writing the argumentative papers.  In fact, he has enjoyed this class so much that he asked me to sign him up for the creative writing class this semester with the same instructor he has for Rhetoric I. While my younger son plans to major in computer science, I think he will end up at a liberal arts school getting a B.A. rather than a B.S.

 

My older son, unlike my younger son, does not enjoy writing for the sake of writing. The Rhetoric I class would eat up more of his day than I feel is necessary considering his long-term goals.

Based on this explanation I'm worried that Rhetoric I might be to much for my DD who struggles with writing.  I'm going to have to contact WTMA for advice on placement.  Does anyone know if you can see into the book used in this class somewhere on the internet?  

[RootAnn]

I was able to see only the table of contents on a publisher website. Yowsers! It is expensive, even used. When did it start being that pricey? (Less than a year ago?)

[dereksurfs]

I was able to see only the table of contents on a publisher website. Yowsers! It is expensive, even used. When did it start being that pricey? (Less than a year ago?)

 

Yes, it's pricey, a 'little' less on Amazon.  In reading one of the reviews it gives one pause for thought regarding some of the content for a youth.  I'll quote the one I am referring to: 

 

Other reviewers have given good reviews explaining the value of this book for teaching composition and after reading them I decided to check this book out from my library and see for myself. I found many of the writing samples to be very odd. Here are a couple of examples.

 

"The police found Mary Beth huddled naked in one corner of a small, filthy, foul-smelling bedroom. One thin wrist was tied to a bedpost with an electric cord. Her frail body was a mass of bruises and welts."

 

"I have a twelve-year old daughter who gets good grades in school and who is generally well behaved. However, last summer she began seeing a fifteen-year old boy. After some time I discovered evidence that she was having sex with this boy." In this writing example, the writer of this Dear Abby style letter goes on to discuss that she's not sure what to do.

 

There are many writing examples that have graphic, disturbing images and ideas such as these. I was hoping to use this book as part of a classical education homeschooling program for my high school age daughter, but there is too much of this just plain weird writing for my tastes. Five stars for the type of composition teaching method, zero stars for the icky-ness.  --http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Classical-Tradition-Frank-DAngelo/dp/0023271418

[nansk]

In reading one of the reviews it gives one pause for thought regarding some of the content for a youth.

This has been discussed extensively on the forums and in lectures with SWB. The book was written for law school students, which is why there are these objectionable writing samples in it. SWB herself has said in her lecture that while the writing samples are "horrendous" and should be ignored, the instructions preceeding those samples are "some of the clearest explanations" on the progym that she has found.

[dereksurfs]

This has been discussed extensively on the forums and in lectures with SWB. The book was written for law school students, which is why there are these objectionable writing samples in it. SWB herself has said in her lecture that while the writing samples are "horrendous" and should be ignored, the instructions preceeding those samples are "some of the clearest explanations" on the progym that she has found.

 

That's interesting.  I guess all are in agreement that the book's writing examples are really bad.  I wonder then how she separates them out from the writing instruction itself?  Doesn't one reference the other throughout the text?  I am trying to picture how that works with student reading assignments and lessons.  I've also got some really curious readers who, if given a book for school, may find it difficult *not* reading examples provided.  It's kind of like saying, "BTW, while you're over there, don't walk on that green grass."  I'm just sayin'   ;)

[nansk]

I wonder then how she separates them out from the writing instruction itself? 

I guess that is something the WTMA instructor will manage. Perhaps parents whose kids are in Rhetoric 1 can share more details.

 

This is what SWB suggests in her lecture handout:

Read a section of the text, outline its content, and then do the exercise; if no exercise is provided, write a paragraph illustrating the technique or find an example.

 

[melmichigan]

I'd love to hear more how assignments are handled.  According to the syllabus students answer the questions from the textbook and then write a two page paper on one of the questions from the chapter each week..

[snowbeltmom]

I'd love to hear more how assignments are handled.  According to the syllabus students answer the questions from the textbook and then write a two page paper on one of the questions from the chapter each week..

I just checked with my son, as I am completely out of the loop with this class.  He said that they completed the textbook last semester.  When they were working from the textbook, they did answer questions from the chapter and write a paper each week.  This semester the instructor will post essays for the class to read.  Like last semester, a paper is submitted each week.

 

Fwiw, my son took CTY's Crafting the Essay last year (9th grade). According to CTY, the class is at the level of a college freshman.  My son feels that the Rhetoric I class is at a slightly higher level than the CTY course.  The amount of time required for the Rhetoric class is definitely more than that required for the CTY class, but as I stated up-thread, my son is enjoying the Rhetoric I class way more than the CTY class.

 

HTH a little.

[mbrady]

If I remember right, most of these inappropriate examples were in the written questions at the end of the chapter. Although there were probably a couple in the text itself. However, the examples given above were about the extent of them (really not too bad). If the question contained questionable content, then my daughter's instructor just didn't assign that question. They may read the scenario, but it wasn't something they would have to think deeply and write about.

 

My daughter's class finished the text book a couple weeks ago, and they are now reading Plato's Phaedrus. They are about to start the second book mentioned in the syllabus. The reading has definitely increased in quantity and difficulty.

[nansk]

I wonder then how she separates them out from the writing instruction itself?

 

I guess that is something the WTMA instructor will manage. Perhaps parents whose kids are in Rhetoric 1 can share more details.

 

This is what SWB suggests in her lecture handout:

 

 

Read a section of the text, outline its content, and then do the exercise; if no exercise is provided, write a paragraph illustrating the technique or find an example.

I went and listened to that part of her lecture yesterday. There are "excellent" exercises for each chapter. So, read the explanation, do the exercises, and find an example or write your own.

[melmichigan]

 

Yes, it's pricey, a 'little' less on Amazon.  In reading one of the reviews it gives one pause for thought regarding some of the content for a youth.  I'll quote the one I am referring to: 

 

Other reviewers have given good reviews explaining the value of this book for teaching composition and after reading them I decided to check this book out from my library and see for myself. I found many of the writing samples to be very odd. Here are a couple of examples.

 

"The police found Mary Beth huddled naked in one corner of a small, filthy, foul-smelling bedroom. One thin wrist was tied to a bedpost with an electric cord. Her frail body was a mass of bruises and welts."

 

"I have a twelve-year old daughter who gets good grades in school and who is generally well behaved. However, last summer she began seeing a fifteen-year old boy. After some time I discovered evidence that she was having sex with this boy." In this writing example, the writer of this Dear Abby style letter goes on to discuss that she's not sure what to do.

 

There are many writing examples that have graphic, disturbing images and ideas such as these. I was hoping to use this book as part of a classical education homeschooling program for my high school age daughter, but there is too much of this just plain weird writing for my tastes. Five stars for the type of composition teaching method, zero stars for the icky-ness.  --http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Classical-Tradition-Frank-DAngelo/dp/0023271418

 

I have a request for this from the library, but it will have to come from Ferris State University via library loan.

[dereksurfs]

I have a request for this from the library, but it will have to come from Ferris State University via library loan.

 

Please let us know what you think once you receive it.  I would be interested if it's content changes your perspective on the course.

[melmichigan]

Please let us know what you think once you receive it.  I would be interested if it's content changes your perspective on the course.

It arrived today so I will check back after I have some time with it this weekend. 

[melmichigan]

Well I'm five chapters in to Composition in the Classical Tradition.  I must say I agree that this is classical progymnasmata, the instruction in the text reads very similar to the CW books that I own.  I believe it's been compared to an easier Herodotus, but I haven't had a chance to read the advanced levels of CW.  The chapters that I've read seem to be a combined version of the lower levels.  Chapter six is Refutation/Confirmation, which is exactly where DD is in LToW.  

 

The chapters I've read include the example mentioned above. "I have a twelve-year old daughter who gets good grades in school and who is generally well behaved. However, last summer she began seeing a fifteen-year old boy. After some time I discovered evidence that she was having sex with this boy." In this writing example, the writer of this Dear Abby style letter goes on to discuss that she's not sure what to do.  Maybe I'm more liberal than some, but this exercise doesn't bother me as much as the amazon reviewer.  It reads like a typical Dear Abby letter that I used to read in the newspaper when I was a teen, and certainly isn't something that I have a problem with a high schooler reading.  The activity is to take the declarative statements and turn as many as you can into interrogative questions. Many of the examples use classical literature but a balance of the examples are also more present day than those used in CW (those appear to have the most complaint), so it would be interesting to see how that translates in instruction and if it would carry over to future writing more easily.

 

There are twelve chapters total, so I have a ways to go and will check back once I've fished the book.

 

[melmichigan]

Just an FYI, it appears that there will be some instructor shuffling next year.  I don't remember all the teachers from this year, but I've noticed that names mentioned in some of the reviews are not necessarily those listed as teaching the class next year.  I have no idea how this will impact anything so it's just an FYI when reading reviews.  

 

If you are writing a review, please include your child's instructor for those of us looking for input! :)

[Paula in MS]

Just another thought as far as rhetoric goes.  Classical Composition (Memoria Press) has online Middle School writing courses that cover fable, narrative, chreia/maxim, and refutation.  They cover 2 topics per year in a once a week class.  Obviously, the well trained mind academy is a much better financial deal, but the Memoria Press classes are geared to a middle school audience and might be a good warm-up to the WTM rhetoric classes if your student is ready to move on but does not want the work load of a high school class.  I don't have any experience with their online classes, but I am considering one for next year.  They have book samples and an online class available on their website.

[melmichigan]

We are going in a different direction next year.   :)

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

We are going in a different direction next year. The textbook used did not influence this decision. :)

Is that sarcasm? I can read it both ways! Just trying to clarify...

[melmichigan]

Sorry!  We are going with the progym next year for this DD, but not WTMA.  The book wasn't really part of the decision.  It's not ideal, but I don't have a problem using it for high schoolers.