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Let's say DD is a slow processor, what curriculum would you definitely use/not use?


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While I've suspected for some time that DD my be a slow processor of some sort, I read through the sample of Bright Kids Who Can't Keep Up that was suggested in another thread. I'm going to check out the book next trip to the library, but there's really little doubt in my mind at this point. I also suspect sensory issues and minor dyslexia (not sure what to call it, but not severe). I used to think some ADHD, but after reading the excerpt from the aforementioned book, slow processing sings to me where ADHD never quite has. Some characteristics of VSL fit too.

 

No, I haven't gotten her tested yet. Not quite ready, plus I need to figure out the logistics of it.

 

Anyway, the slow processing (I think) causes some of our greatest struggles, particularly in math. She's so danged slow. She can be whiz-bang smart, but she can also sit ten minutes on one problem with no progress.

 

We use Singapore, which I really don't want to give up, but we struggle to get through all of the problems in the main lessons, much less the extras. I use the HIG extensively. I'm wondering whether all of the HIG pre-teaching is part of the problem. Like maybe all of the talking clutters her mind. Isn't most of Beast Academy's lessons presented in a cartoon? While I'm not sure whether BA is the way to go with a slow processor, I do wonder whether lessons laid out visually before her might be a better fit. We do use the SM textbook, but I rarely teach the lesson exclusively with it. Maybe I need to alter my use of the HIG and use the textbook as my primary resource for teaching?

 

Generally speaking, what curricula are big no-nos for a slow processor and which are good fits for someone who responds well to lessons presented on paper, but not through extensive lecturing.

 

DD can instantly recall sounds when I flash AAS/AAR flash cards, but a simple verbal question can often confuse her. Generally, she can follow written directions better than verbal directions.

 

I'm kind of babbling here, but this is new to me. It takes me a while to come to terms with things. (I'm very much opposite of DD.) I'm a research and talk it out kind of girl. DD will be eight in a few months. Our main curricula is listed in my siggy, plus AAR 3, which I recently added to fill in gaps. (We're actually finished with AAS 2. We're taking a break from it and accelerating through the rest of AAR.)

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Before you go the slow processing route I've got a few questions - she is 8, right?  When you say she is slow in math - what does she do that makes you think she is slow?  Is she slow in finding the answer?  Does she appear to be searching in her head for the answer?  I'm surprised that you would be using All About Spelling before finishing up the All About Reading - but that is just me.  Have you done some research on a Right Brain/Visual Spatial learner?  Would you say she is very empathetic to others (more so than what we teach our kids to be)?  Very emotional and when she failed at something it becomes a big issue?  I wouldn't be quick to jump ship on math just yet - although I'm intrigued by your comment at Beast Academy and comic book style.  Does your dd enjoy books that are written in the comic book style?  This is a VSL trait.  If you find that your dd really has a lot of the VSL traits you'll find that she is very creative and inquisitive (I know, what young child isn't?) but they think in pictures.  I'd let your dd look through the lesson for Singapore in the textbook - you could read along side and just summarize and see what happens.  I have found with my VSL that too much instruction causes him to just shut down.  Short, engaging lesson with minimal examples.  At once he's seen the material, interacted with the material then he has pretty much mastered the material and no need to overdo.  I will say that he got bogged down in multiplication and division but we worked through the key foundation, practiced a little and moved on.  He knows exactly how to do it but he's not going to win a medal on doing it fast but over time he's getting much quicker because his brain has made pictures and has begun to make the connections.  The biggest thing about a VSL/RB learner is that they mature a wee bit later (probably more age 10) and then look out because you can't stop them when their minds begin to take off.

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You don't actually split the ADHD off from the low processing speed.  The low processing speed isn't in the DSM as a diagnosis.  It's going to be a tag-along for something else.  (unless of course your IQ and processing speed are relative to each other)  What you described with her reading off the flashcards quickly (phonograms or the words?) may indicate an ok RAN/RAS (rapid naming) speed.  Typically a dyslexic is going to have a low RAN/RAS.  

 

I suggest you get a full psych eval so you can determine the cause of the low processing speed, whether there's anything else going on that needs a referral, and recommendations on appropriate accommodations.  For my dd, who has a very large discrepancy between processing speed and IQ, the accommodations are obvious (bite your teeth while waiting for answers, give discussion questions ahead so she can have time to process, extended time on testing, etc.).  However for what really makes our lives bad, it's the attention and the fatigue from the attention.  Also she turned out to have some more nuanced issues, like difficulties with word retrieval, that we were seeing symptoms of but couldn't put our finger on.  Once we had the right words for things, we could work with them better.

 

Yeah, she's probably VSL, just because most kids in the alphabet soup are.  You can read Freed's book Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World.  Hmm, "all the talking clutters her mind."  That's interesting and sort of loaded with rabbit trails.   When someone listens, they *should* be visualizing.  So if she's VSL but with developmental vision problems, she would struggle to visualize and thus fade out and not process well in conversations.  CAPD however would present with similar symptoms (and more, definitely more).  To me what you're describing is just attention issues.  Her working memory is small, something distracts her, her internal voices distract her, so all the talking is a mess.  If it were JUST low processing speed, you'd simply slow down.  Remember, a whole chunk of the world has low processing speed (it's a bell curve, remember) and they function just fine because it's appropriate relative to their IQ.  It's when you get these discrepancies (20, 40, 60, 80, 90% differences) between IQ and processing speed that you get glitches and have to accommodate.  So on ds the psych said because there's some difference (20-ish%), his hand and brain won't be in sync and it will affect his writing.  But with dd and her much larger gap, you really have to bite your tongue, give her time, and expect carriage whit (the witty remark that comes as the carriage drives away, hehehe).  

 

I haven't read that book and I'm sure it's interesting.  I'm just saying there is no isolated low processing speed diagnosis in the DSM.  You're going to be better served to get a full psych eval, find out what's going on, and then make choices based on that advice.  

 

Btw, just for your trivia, she's just about at the age where you might consider Cogmed.  They'll do it younger but the research doesn't warrant it.  The psych I'm talking with says he likes them 8 and up.  So she could hit 8, do a round of Cogmed, and see where that gets you.  For me, the interventions I've done like that with dd (for instance, our metronome work and VT) have gotten big changes.  You can also sometimes get a change with omega 3.  I'm not saying it solves everything, but it can help.  And then you'd be digging in on the complete picture.  Our psych said Cogmed *occassionally* (as in rarely) changes processing speed.  Mainly it's going to boost working memory and attention.  It's not like these things work in isolation.  If you're slow to start with and constantly distracted, you're going to SEEM even slower.  Remove the attention distraction and she might seem faster.  It's not just one thing.

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I don't have time this morning to answer everything before school, but I can answer a few. She'll be 8 early May. AAR came out after DD learned how to read. There was only one level, which was brand new when I bought AAS 1. I actually didn't get to use AAS 1 in full until some time later. (Had to put it away for some family health issues I had to tend to.) I didn't think we would use AAR since DD was reading and others on the board were using just AAS (AAR was far from complete) for their continued phonics instruction. I recently discovered gaps in DD's reading, so we finished up AAS 2 (about two weeks ago) and DD tested into AAR 3. We are currently not using AAS. Probably won't again until she completes AAR 4.

 

DD is very creative and super sensitive, emotional and empathetic (although she doesn't always realize how what she says/does effects other people's feelings). These things are VSL traits. However, she also takes forever to do anything...put on her shoes, eat, get ready for bed, zip up her jacket. These things and many other ring true for slow processing.

 

I don't necessarily want to jump from the Singapore ship, but math, which she used to like is among our most frustrating subjects. She is so slow, but at the same time she's not. When her brain finally clicks over to where it's ready to work, she's very quick at figuring out answers. It just can take her a very long time for her brain to click over. Then, she might be fine for a couple of problems, then poof, back to slow.

 

DD responds very well to stories of all kinds. While she's not a comic book reader per se, I wonder whether an entire lesson presented in story form with someone other than me "speaking" the content, might impact her more. When she's slow and not thinking, I try to break a problem down into smaller steps. I can ask her a simple question three times in a row and she's like huh and she'll give me some seemingly off-the-wall answer only for me to discover a bit later (usually after a little blow up with me saying listen to what I'm asking you) that's she given me the whole answer when I've asked her to compute just a very small part of the larger problem. It's like she never heard/understood the itty bitty easy question I was asking her. For example, if the problem is 375-168 and she's sat for way too long, I try to get her brain going by asking the first step or what numbers are in the hundreds. Now, I would realize if she game me the whole answer to this one, but I can't think of a specific example right now. As we work through the answer one little step at a time, we'll get to a point where I'll realize oh, she didn't give me the answer for my easy, little question, but the answer to something more complex and down-the-road. The whole time, she'll cry that she doesn't understand why I don't understand. I don't understand because she didn't answer my question, but some other more complex one in her head. Ugh!!

 

Going go teach school now...

 

 

Before you go the slow processing route I've got a few questions - she is 8, right?  When you say she is slow in math - what does she do that makes you think she is slow?  Is she slow in finding the answer?  Does she appear to be searching in her head for the answer?  I'm surprised that you would be using All About Spelling before finishing up the All About Reading - but that is just me.  Have you done some research on a Right Brain/Visual Spatial learner?  Would you say she is very empathetic to others (more so than what we teach our kids to be)?  Very emotional and when she failed at something it becomes a big issue?  I wouldn't be quick to jump ship on math just yet - although I'm intrigued by your comment at Beast Academy and comic book style.  Does your dd enjoy books that are written in the comic book style?  This is a VSL trait.  If you find that your dd really has a lot of the VSL traits you'll find that she is very creative and inquisitive (I know, what young child isn't?) but they think in pictures.  I'd let your dd look through the lesson for Singapore in the textbook - you could read along side and just summarize and see what happens.  I have found with my VSL that too much instruction causes him to just shut down.  Short, engaging lesson with minimal examples.  At once he's seen the material, interacted with the material then he has pretty much mastered the material and no need to overdo.  I will say that he got bogged down in multiplication and division but we worked through the key foundation, practiced a little and moved on.  He knows exactly how to do it but he's not going to win a medal on doing it fast but over time he's getting much quicker because his brain has made pictures and has begun to make the connections.  The biggest thing about a VSL/RB learner is that they mature a wee bit later (probably more age 10) and then look out because you can't stop them when their minds begin to take off.

 

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I choose materials that are appropriate for son's learning style and diagnosis, and then I accommodate.  Son's processing speed is affected by motor issues, so I accommodate the handwriting and provide extra time.  Also, DS is highly auditory and kinesthetic.  

 

Any accommodated curriculum that exploits his learning strength and style is a plus.  NP testing identified the motor issues and enabled me to be more surgical with my curriculum choices.  No curriculum choice has been absolutely perfect for DS except for Winston Grammar, and each subject requires some sort of tweak.

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DD is very creative and super sensitive, emotional and empathetic (although she doesn't always realize how what she says/does effects other people's feelings). These things are VSL traits. However, she also takes forever to do anything...put on her shoes, eat, get ready for bed, zip up her jacket. These things and many other ring true for slow processing.

 

I don't necessarily want to jump from the Singapore ship, but math, which she used to like is among our most frustrating subjects. She is so slow, but at the same time she's not. When her brain finally clicks over to where it's ready to work, she's very quick at figuring out answers. It just can take her a very long time for her brain to click over. Then, she might be fine for a couple of problems, then poof, back to slow.

 

...When she's slow and not thinking, I try to break a problem down into smaller steps. I can ask her a simple question three times in a row and she's like huh and she'll give me some seemingly off-the-wall answer only for me to discover a bit later (usually after a little blow up with me saying listen to what I'm asking you) that's she given me the whole answer when I've asked her to compute just a very small part of the larger problem. It's like she never heard/understood the itty bitty easy question I was asking her. For example, if the problem is 375-168 and she's sat for way too long, I try to get her brain going by asking the first step or what numbers are in the hundreds. Now, I would realize if she game me the whole answer to this one, but I can't think of a specific example right now. As we work through the answer one little step at a time, we'll get to a point where I'll realize oh, she didn't give me the answer for my easy, little question, but the answer to something more complex and down-the-road. The whole time, she'll cry that she doesn't understand why I don't understand. I don't understand because she didn't answer my question, but some other more complex one in her head. Ugh!!

 

Going go teach school now...

VSL is itself a trait.  Gifted plus a label would cause the mix you're describing.

 

What do you mean by "brain click over" and "clicks over to where it's ready to work"?  That sounds like a transition and initiation issues (adhd).  And yes, impulsivity would cause them to have two gears: too fast and too slow.  

 

Yes, that kind of conflict, where you're trying to break it into small steps but they're frantically holding it in their head and doing the whole thing is something my dd does.  We had a LOT of conflict with that over the years, which was why I stopped teaching her math and put her in TT.  We can work together now, but I really have to hold back and respect the thought process.  I will tell you I think there's working memory issues there.  So the working memory is low and they CAN'T just stop and write out their steps.  If they did, it would be poof, gone.  So instead they try to hold it all in their heads, and that's still crunchy because of the working memory.  Working on working memory helps.  When dd is at that place I'll scribe for her so it's one less thing to do.  (It also turned out her motor planning for writing was not automatic, meaning the actual writing was draining her working memory.)  

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I need to come back later to read more thoroughly and such, but I have one a lot like what you describe. He's probably in the ADHD inattentive type, but he is a very slow processor. Working memory was less bad relative to IQ, but it's tanked as work expectations have gone up. I know what you are talking about with things clicking and then getting stuck. What OhElizabeth is saying is true about WM and such, but it really can be on its own--I think it's a VSL thing. These kiddos often have that big aha moment, things move along, and then they get stuck at the next point where the aha is needed. That's when it's time to back off just a bit, take a break for a day or two and come back to the subject. Or, skip the particular assignment, but stay in the topic and circle back. My kiddo will hit a wall, we'll back off a wee bit (or do a different topic--we use Miquon for math, and they look at the same concept several ways), and when we come back to it, the block is just gone. No explanation. Some of these kids need to marinate. 

 

Both of my kiddos tend to do better if we leave some work set aside for "stuck" days. I choose topics and assignments that are easy for them, enjoyable, or very cut and dry. We pull those out on difficult days. It keeps us in routine but takes some pressure away.

 

Will have more to say later.

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So if all ADHD kids are VSL and we're all talking ADHD kids, we're really splitting apart things.  I agree it's not like it's one or the other.  They make huge leaps, yes, and they do it with EVERYTHING.  But I think the reason they can't pause and go back and get it out without extreme frustration is the low working memory.  

 

We can extrapolate and make assumptions and be incorrect, too.  The cogmed psych said what I thought was fatigue from low processing speed was actually fatigue from inattention.  I just think it's very possible to take a bunch of things that really are all happening and then incorrectly draw the correlations.

 

Kbutton, have you thought about Cogmed?  It would be very curious to see what would happen with your oldest.  If he would buy in, he'd be at a great age to get results (based on the research data).  You can stack meds and Cogmed, so it's not like you have to choose.  For me, it's sort of this wishful city, like wow we're gonna do Cogmed and...   :lol:  If we get even HALF of what I dream of, that would be something.  I actually think we could get half, so I guess we'll see.

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I have noticed that if I let a new concept "marinate" overnight, the next day DD does a lot better. And, her attitude/demeanor is better/more positive too.

 

For example, DD has issues with spelling. I used to drag out a single step of AAS over 4-5 days. At the end of AAS 2, I accelerated for a number of reasons. Each step, we completed over two days. (This was a lot easier to do at the end of AAS 2 because there were less words overall for the rules/phonograms being studied.) The first day, the teaching day, she would struggle and miss several. The second day, her execution was flawless or nearly so...even for the new words I threw in at the end. (I used to present the lesson the first day, have her spell the primary words the next, more words/phrases/sentences the next two days and then "test" the primary words again on the last day, plus a few phrases/sentences.) Sometimes with Singapore, I'll divide the workbook into two days. Again, she does much better the second day. It's almost likely the familiarity with the material and the fact that there is no new lesson to sit through provides some sort of mental relief. I wish I could divide every lesson into two days, but schedule-wise with Singapore that's impossible. 

 

 

I need to come back later to read more thoroughly and such, but I have one a lot like what you describe. He's probably in the ADHD inattentive type, but he is a very slow processor. Working memory was less bad relative to IQ, but it's tanked as work expectations have gone up. I know what you are talking about with things clicking and then getting stuck. What OhElizabeth is saying is true about WM and such, but it really can be on its own--I think it's a VSL thing. These kiddos often have that big aha moment, things move along, and then they get stuck at the next point where the aha is needed. That's when it's time to back off just a bit, take a break for a day or two and come back to the subject. Or, skip the particular assignment, but stay in the topic and circle back. My kiddo will hit a wall, we'll back off a wee bit (or do a different topic--we use Miquon for math, and they look at the same concept several ways), and when we come back to it, the block is just gone. No explanation. Some of these kids need to marinate. 

 

Both of my kiddos tend to do better if we leave some work set aside for "stuck" days. I choose topics and assignments that are easy for them, enjoyable, or very cut and dry. We pull those out on difficult days. It keeps us in routine but takes some pressure away.

 

Will have more to say later.

 

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Ugh, it all is so confusing and exhausting. You're right, OhElizabeth. We really need an eval. Realistically, that's not going to happen until late spring/early summer. I'm trying to figure out how to adjust, cope, make it through the rest of the school year with less strife. We can waste up to half an hour a day dealing with DD's frustration and tears. (I'm not even going to hazard a guess at time loss due to substantially decreased production do to the fallout of those tears.) Once the tears start, she can't seem to move on until every bit of snot in her nose is dealt with. She can easily use 10-20 tissues a day since each one can only be used for one little wipe before it's deemed too gross to touch again. Sigh. I'm sure everyone can imagine my frustration in wasting ten minutes in nose wiping per crying session. So on the days there are constant crying sessions, I'm spent. One can only coddle so much.

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This is happening in math or every subject? What happens if you scribe or use a whiteboard? Do you have radical ideas you think would work? Think radical, like ditch the curriculum and do Family Math the rest of the year. Or pay with food. Or do something physical first for 20min. Is she in a sport or anything physical? You could make the changes you'd make if you knew it was ADHD.

Short sessions, movement, lots of interaction, no assumption they can do or organize on their ow, scribing, work on working memory. I don't thi the curriculum matters as much as how you use it.

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So if all ADHD kids are VSL and we're all talking ADHD kids, we're really splitting apart things.  I agree it's not like it's one or the other.  They make huge leaps, yes, and they do it with EVERYTHING.  But I think the reason they can't pause and go back and get it out without extreme frustration is the low working memory.  

 

We can extrapolate and make assumptions and be incorrect, too.  The cogmed psych said what I thought was fatigue from low processing speed was actually fatigue from inattention.  I just think it's very possible to take a bunch of things that really are all happening and then incorrectly draw the correlations.

 

Kbutton, have you thought about Cogmed?  It would be very curious to see what would happen with your oldest.  If he would buy in, he'd be at a great age to get results (based on the research data).  You can stack meds and Cogmed, so it's not like you have to choose.  For me, it's sort of this wishful city, like wow we're gonna do Cogmed and...   :lol:  If we get even HALF of what I dream of, that would be something.  I actually think we could get half, so I guess we'll see.

 

I know VSL people without ADHD, and this is true of them. I know ADHD folks who are not VSL. I also know that a lot of people with VSL abilities can work in other modalities as well. It's not that cut and dry sometimes. Sometimes they don't have the words or ability to pin down where their leaps are. I am an even split with visual/verbal and probably VSL. I didn't have the vocabulary or ability for a long time to break things into steps, and I don't think there's much of a chance I have ADHD. I made leaps and didn't know how I got there. It just happens. I have learned to trust my intuition and to know that I'll have an explanation later when the thoughts cement themselves, and that is exactly what I see happening with my kids. They also have trouble with working memory, but it's different and comes up differently (more like anxiety and stupid behavior, lol!). I don't think I have problems with working memory (okay, I may now because I have three people sucking mine up like a slurpy, but I didn't when I was younger). But memory problems can interfere with this as well. So, more hair splitting. :-)

 

I don't know much about cogmed. Right now, I am trying to finish that last darn week of OT--we keep having cancellations for weather and stupid stuff. Just one.more.session, please!!!

 

I don't know if we can get cogmed paid for--both of my kids would need it. It has to be tied to an IEP. Not sure one can qualify for an IEP, and the other doesn't really have that kind of thing specified in his IEP. 

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We really need an eval. Realistically, that's not going to happen until late spring/early summer.

 

FWIW, evals take time to get scheduled - there can be lengthy waiting lists, depending on the psych.  (Around here, that's a month at least, maybe two, but in some places it can be many months.)  So, if possible, consider scheduling the appointment now for later.  You can always cancel.

 

What happens if you scribe or use a whiteboard?

 

This.  Many/most slow processors have difficulty with handwriting speed and/or effort, practically by the very definition of processing speed as measured on the WISC.  White boards can really help, and it's worth trying scribing and/or allowing oral answers whenever possible.

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DD is very creative and super sensitive, emotional and empathetic (although she doesn't always realize how what she says/does effects other people's feelings). These things are VSL traits. However, she also takes forever to do anything...put on her shoes, eat, get ready for bed, zip up her jacket. These things and many other ring true for slow processing.

 

I don't necessarily want to jump from the Singapore ship, but math, which she used to like is among our most frustrating subjects. She is so slow, but at the same time she's not. When her brain finally clicks over to where it's ready to work, she's very quick at figuring out answers. It just can take her a very long time for her brain to click over. Then, she might be fine for a couple of problems, then poof, back to slow.

 

 

We have this exact response with ds 1 and it is indeed slow processing & stealth dyslexia. I heard an adult describe it one time as "a fuzzy picture and then eventually it clicks into perfect focus". This individual is quite bright, but that is just the processing style.

 

We haven't really found a perfect solution honestly. Singapore has been the best, with breaks to cement procedures after the conceptual teaching (right now the Key to Fractions series). The other key has just been to push forward through the struggle despite it feeling very counterintuitive, because the click is coming, but only if there is more context for the concept. Do NOT hang out on the concept to master it. That is not the way these brains work. That said review as necessary - a problem here or there to warm up while you push forward conceptually.

 

BA was a disaster for my slow processor. The spatial chapters were wonderful but for some reason that curriculum really does assume fast processing. My ds 2 is whizzing through it with zero problems on or ahead of pace. Ds 1 really struggled through much of BA despite having a much better, deeper understanding of theoretical math. It just was not a good fit for his processing style at all (maybe because he wanted to hang out even longer and ponder the concepts?).

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We use Singapore, which I really don't want to give up, but we struggle to get through all of the problems in the main lessons, much less the extras. I use the HIG extensively. I'm wondering whether all of the HIG pre-teaching is part of the problem. Like maybe all of the talking clutters her mind. Isn't most of Beast Academy's lessons presented in a cartoon? While I'm not sure whether BA is the way to go with a slow processor, I do wonder whether lessons laid out visually before her might be a better fit. We do use the SM textbook, but I rarely teach the lesson exclusively with it. Maybe I need to alter my use of the HIG and use the textbook as my primary resource for teaching?

 

 

Fwiw, this is how I teach Singapore to my slow processor as well. I did read through Liping Ma's book as teacher training, but the textbook is my primary teaching resource. With a slow processor, you have to cut out the extras. They can't process that much material and/or calculations without overloading their RAM and it will take forever. Find the most effective way to get the main concept across quickly and give them as much time as possible to demonstrate and play with it. We would never have time to do the CWP, the FAN-Math books, the IP, etc (although we've done parts of each over time but definitely not all at once or all at one level). Ds just cannot process that much material. I find the best 5 problems I can that demonstrate a variety of techniques and have him complete those. Based on his performance and understanding, we go from there the next day.

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I'd let your dd look through the lesson for Singapore in the textbook - you could read along side and just summarize and see what happens.  I have found with my VSL that too much instruction causes him to just shut down.  Short, engaging lesson with minimal examples.  At once he's seen the material, interacted with the material then he has pretty much mastered the material and no need to overdo.  

 

This. My slow processor is using Miqon right now, but I do know what Singapore is like because my older on uses it (he's slow processor at times too, but my younger one is in single digit percentiles!).

 

Have you considered using the Intensive Practice with her? It looks at the concepts from several angles, allowing the student to go deeper. Just a thought. 

 

Maybe some Education Unboxed each day to start the math thinker up (free online videos with c-rods)? Or to cement some Singapore stuff? 

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 I'm surprised that you would be using All About Spelling before finishing up the All About Reading - but that is just me. 

 

Sorry for all the posts! Multi-quote is not working for me right now.

 

Fwiw, I think the presentation of material is far clearer in AAS than in AAR, especially for a slow processor. AAS has less of the extras and just enough work with the rules a little bit per day for it to stick, at least with my kids. I keep wanting to like AAR and I've bought 3 or 4 levels of it, including Pre, but I always go back to AAS to present the material.

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When she's slow and not thinking, I try to break a problem down into smaller steps. I can ask her a simple question three times in a row and she's like huh and she'll give me some seemingly off-the-wall answer only for me to discover a bit later (usually after a little blow up with me saying listen to what I'm asking you) that's she given me the whole answer when I've asked her to compute just a very small part of the larger problem. It's like she never heard/understood the itty bitty easy question I was asking her. For example, if the problem is 375-168 and she's sat for way too long, I try to get her brain going by asking the first step or what numbers are in the hundreds. Now, I would realize if she game me the whole answer to this one, but I can't think of a specific example right now. As we work through the answer one little step at a time, we'll get to a point where I'll realize oh, she didn't give me the answer for my easy, little question, but the answer to something more complex and down-the-road. The whole time, she'll cry that she doesn't understand why I don't understand. I don't understand because she didn't answer my question, but some other more complex one in her head. Ugh!!

 

This is the bane of my existance. And you just have to bite your tongue and wait. I keep trying to have my kids give me some kind of "I'm thinking" signal, but it's not happening. Just give way more time. Offer up front to write things down if she wants you to, but my kiddos do this too--both of them. Argh. If I were a drinker...so, I try to fold laundry or something while we do this. I have a coloring book so that I can color when they think. Really. It helps me have a modicum of patience (I am a fast processor for most things.) You can't keep them from answering the more complex question, at least not now.

 

It will get more efficient, but it will always be a bit slow. My 10 y.o. has become a lot faster than I ever thought he would be. (But he does use printed out table for multiplication facts, which he uses when necessary.) 

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I choose materials that are appropriate for son's learning style and diagnosis, and then I accommodate.  Son's processing speed is affected by motor issues, so I accommodate the handwriting and provide extra time.  Also, DS is highly auditory and kinesthetic.  

 

Any accommodated curriculum that exploits his learning strength and style is a plus.  NP testing identified the motor issues and enabled me to be more surgical with my curriculum choices.  No curriculum choice has been absolutely perfect for DS except for Winston Grammar, and each subject requires some sort of tweak.

 

Yes. And accommodations may mean fewer but harder problems or something like that. They can't do school forever. It's not fair to them. OTOH, if you find something they like, they may plow forward if left alone a bit, and then they'll be really productive. My grandmother is also a slow processor. She is SLOW at everything, but a very impatient and sometimes impulsive person. Probably at least some ADHD. But, if you just let her find her thing to do, she'll be done before me sometimes, because she just plods along, and I go fast with lots of breaks. Now, my slow processor doesn't necessarily always plod well--he gets sidetracked, but when he does do his steady plodding, it's amazing. We've found that working on attention arousal is key for him. We have to prime that pump, whether he does a physical chore, bounces, whatever, he has to warm up his brain with some movement before he does school. Preferably something that makes him feel like he accomplished something.

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This. My slow processor is using Miqon right now, but I do know what Singapore is like because my older on uses it (he's slow processor at times too, but my younger one is in single digit percentiles!).

 

Have you considered using the Intensive Practice with her? It looks at the concepts from several angles, allowing the student to go deeper. Just a thought. 

 

Maybe some Education Unboxed each day to start the math thinker up (free online videos with c-rods)? Or to cement some Singapore stuff? 

 

Can I ask how old your younger one is? Because I know for us, this year has been night and day different from previous years. We just hadn't faced the level of material that is the late 4th/5th grade slog with a slow processor yet. Prior to this year, ds could easily compensate for his slow processing with his 2E, and I know we were told to expect it, but we really hit the wall this year and we have had to make some major adaptations because suddenly the slow processing became a big issue. We're still sorting it all out, but the middle years with a slow processor IMHE are going to look very different than I expected initially.

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Sometimes with Singapore, I'll divide the workbook into two days. Again, she does much better the second day. It's almost likely the familiarity with the material and the fact that there is no new lesson to sit through provides some sort of mental relief. I wish I could divide every lesson into two days, but schedule-wise with Singapore that's impossible. 

 

This is where you might have to insert some other math work that primes the pump. We don't follow a schedule at all with Singapore with my older son. He surges ahead and falls behind, and it all works out in the end. However, I skip anything he already does well (or bump him over to the Intensive Practice book for practice). It's kind of touch and go. With my litter one (the really slow one) in Miquon, we have pages that take FOREVER and some that he does almost instantly. I look at progress with both over a longer period of time so that I don't freak out.

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Can I ask how old your younger one is? Because I know for us, this year has been night and day different from previous years. We just hadn't faced the level of material that is the late 4th/5th grade slog with a slow processor yet. Prior to this year, ds could easily compensate for his slow processing with his 2E, and I know we were told to expect it, but we really hit the wall this year and we have had to make some major adaptations because suddenly the slow processing became a big issue. We're still sorting it all out, but the middle years with a slow processor IMHE are going to look very different than I expected initially.

 

My younger one is 7 and in 1st (but doing some 2nd-gradish things). 

 

My older one is 10 and in 5th. He has very clear ADHD (and ASD, SPD, etc.), and meds have helped even out his progress.

 

Still waiting to see on the little guy--probable ADHD, and I hate to wait too long on meds, but we've been given some pros and cons to waiting that are different than what we had with our older one. Testing was only sort of helpful. We need to have a CAPD evaluation, but I think he's going to always be slow. My BIL was that way (and he's rather hyperactive in many ways--very strange combo). 

 

I have no idea what to expect from DS7 by 4th grade, but I do think he's likely to be accelerated enough that we can slow down if needed. Not sure though. 

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My younger one is 7 and in 1st (but doing some 2nd-gradish things). 

 

My older one is 10 and in 5th. He has very clear ADHD (and ASD, SPD, etc.), and meds have helped even out his progress.

 

Still waiting to see on the little guy--probable ADHD, and I hate to wait too long on meds, but we've been given some pros and cons to waiting that are different than what we had with our older one. Testing was only sort of helpful. We need to have a CAPD evaluation, but I think he's going to always be slow. My BIL was that way (and he's rather hyperactive in many ways--very strange combo). 

 

I have no idea what to expect from DS7 by 4th grade, but I do think he's likely to be accelerated enough that we can slow down if needed. Not sure though. 

 

Technically this is true for us too, but it sure is difficult to see that acceleration slip away. :( I hear we will get some of it back with adolescence & the jump to algebra, but it has been a tough year for us at least to see some of the predicted issues crop up. I can see some glimmers of what is to come occasionally, but the sheer level of material to remember has been really difficult for ds to sort and process.

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Technically this is true for us too, but it sure is difficult to see that acceleration slip away. :( I hear we will get some of it back with adolescence & the jump to algebra, but it has been a tough year for us at least to see some of the predicted issues crop up. I can see some glimmers of what is to come occasionally, but the sheer level of material to remember has been really difficult for ds to sort and process.

 

:grouphug: I've also seen an accelerated kid hit the wall later down the road too, and it's not any prettier then, according to the reports from parents. Hang in there.

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:grouphug: I've also seen an accelerated kid hit the wall later down the road too, and it's not any prettier then, according to the reports from parents. Hang in there.

 

What is crazy is the level of depth and information that he requires in science, history, and literature has taken off even more, at the same time the procedural ability has slowed down due to more skills being required. Which makes the discrepancies even more pronounced and frustrating. If some of this ever evens out, then look out, but right now it just seems like a jumbled mess of chaos where I can't keep up with either exceptionality.

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What is crazy is the level of depth and information that he requires in science, history, and literature has taken off even more, at the same time the procedural ability has slowed down due to more skills being required. Which makes the discrepancies even more pronounced and frustrating. If some of this ever evens out, then look out, but right now it just seems like a jumbled mess of chaos where I can't keep up with either exceptionality.

 

Aw, that would be frustrating. We don't have quite that spread at this point.

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OhElizabeth does though! She has some pretty big differences in content vs. the basics. But again, it's a younger kiddo.

 

Yes, we've always had this too but it has become even more pronounced as he enters the middle years. *sigh* If we get those math facts at 12 like OhE, that would be awesome.

 

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Goodness this thread got long. I can't finish it right now.

 

But what you are describing (takes forever, clicks in and is fast, back to slow; 10 minutes on a single problem) is my son. His issues aren't actually slow processing, but major attention issues. He loses focus/lacks sustained attention. He'll lose that focus in the middle of a problem. Starting is hard too. Math is horrible as a result. You can actually see him click mentally on and off. When he focuses, he's quick. Quicker than me. When he doesn't...well, you would think he knows nothing. Same topic and problem type. My son had similar click on/off results in educational psych testing. Their verdict was his issues are all attention. I'm not entirely sure you're seeing slow processing.

 

I split lessons into short sessions for my son. When he was her age, I had very short lessons. I limited the number of problems, in math particularly, we covered daily. Once he clicks in to something he's pretty much got it for good. So he was ok with less volume. We do a lot on the white board and orally. My son tunes out when I talk too much, but he doesn't have issues with auditory processing. You might have something going on in that area based on your description of the cards vs. verbal questioning. That said, my son needs a visual to maintain/direct his attention. It may be that the card flipping visuals is just helping her maintain attention instead of wandering off mentally.

 

My son has strong emotions and poor emotional control. If school is causing daily tears at her age, though, I think you have to change something. I'd even do something drastic. I'd much rather be behind than have to deal with a load of negative emotional baggage associated with school. I always tried to stop while things were still positive. Little steps will still get her there, though I do school year round to give us more time.

 

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With my child that is similar to what you describe, Life of Fred was a very good fit for math for a couple of years.  We read a lot of different interesting math picture books we'd get from the library (Sir Cumference, for example) too, and the short story and short problems of Fred were a great fit.

 

We are trying out Beast Academy for now, but will do more Fred again later/mixed in someday.

 

FWIW, Singapore was an absolute bust with this particular child of mine too.  Singapore has been great for another child in our house.  

 

HTH

 

(ETA: About Beast Academy and slow processing - it is taking us forever to get through what we are doing, so if I felt like we needed to complete the books at a good pace I'd be really frustrated.  I've learned to let go of expectations like that (usually) and we somehow end up getting things covered eventually, so I'm expecting that to work out for us somehow again.  But I don't think we'll come close to finishing one level in a year.)

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What is crazy is the level of depth and information that he requires in science, history, and literature has taken off even more, at the same time the procedural ability has slowed down due to more skills being required. Which makes the discrepancies even more pronounced and frustrating. If some of this ever evens out, then look out, but right now it just seems like a jumbled mess of chaos where I can't keep up with either exceptionality.

I just try to give him multiple levels of options and not stick entirely to one or the other.

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Ugh...maybe they are good ole attention issues then. I can see how her slow eating can be that...she says it's boring and can't seem to stay in her chair. I can see the slow getting-ready-for-bed can be ADHD too...too many tasks at once to stay on top of and she can't seem to stay at the sink while brushing her teeth. She can walk clear across the house and back while putting on/taking off a shirt. And, I can see that her problems with zipping up her jacket can be dylexia.

 

We do use a Boogie Board (used a white board before that) for the discussion part of SM. (Here and there with other subjects too.) But, it can become a distraction. The other day she had an utterly ridiculous meltdown because I had to take the Boogie Board away. We were drawing bar models, which she's quite good at. For whatever reason, she started drawing them from edge to edge on the Boogie Board. I know it was a sensory thing...to feel the stylus write a straight line up against the edges/borders of the board. She drew the same incorrect model three times because she was too engrossed in drawing up against the stinkin' edge of the Boogie Board to pay attention to the bars she was drawing. I gently alerted her in between each of the three times. I finally asked her not to draw up against the edges (after all this was not how she typically drew the models anyway). Oh my gosh, you would have thought the world was ending. She cried and cried and told me this was impossible and that I was mean; she has to draw up against the edges. I thought okay, let's use paper on this one then. It was the last one before the workbook anyway. Whoa...the world truly did end then. Had to put math away.

 

The tears are primarily during math, but she can cry at the drop of a hat for any little reason or seemingly no reason at all. She does not like writing, or she thinks she doesn't. Tears often spurt when she detects the first sign of writing, particularly when its not part of our typical routine. For example, she expects writing for WWE, but we do a lot of Rod & Staff orally. Tears can spurt when she discovers there is writing on the schedule for Rod & Staff that day. (I typically only have her write select exercises on non WWE days.) Yesterday, she had to label four states on a map...tears. (I make labels when there is a lot of long names to write out.)  I truly don't make her write more than is educationally necessarily. I mean, she has to know how to write. Honestly, it's truly a mind over matter thing for her. She's not bad at it and when she allows herself to be absorbed by the activity, she enjoys it. She loves how a paragraph she's written on a crisp, new sheet of lined paper looks in the end. She's proud of it.

 

 

Goodness this thread got long. I can't finish it right now.

 

But what you are describing (takes forever, clicks in and is fast, back to slow; 10 minutes on a single problem) is my son. His issues aren't actually slow processing, but major attention issues. He loses focus/lacks sustained attention. He'll lose that focus in the middle of a problem. Starting is hard too. Math is horrible as a result. You can actually see him click mentally on and off. When he focuses, he's quick. Quicker than me. When he doesn't...well, you would think he knows nothing. Same topic and problem type. My son had similar click on/off results in educational psych testing. Their verdict was his issues are all attention. I'm not entirely sure you're seeing slow processing.

 

I split lessons into short sessions for my son. When he was her age, I had very short lessons. I limited the number of problems, in math particularly, we covered daily. Once he clicks in to something he's pretty much got it for good. So he was ok with less volume. We do a lot on the white board and orally. My son tunes out when I talk too much, but he doesn't have issues with auditory processing. You might have something going on in that area based on your description of the cards vs. verbal questioning. That said, my son needs a visual to maintain/direct his attention. It may be that the card flipping visuals is just helping her maintain attention instead of wandering off mentally.

 

My son has strong emotions and poor emotional control. If school is causing daily tears at her age, though, I think you have to change something. I'd even do something drastic. I'd much rather be behind than have to deal with a load of negative emotional baggage associated with school. I always tried to stop while things were still positive. Little steps will still get her there, though I do school year round to give us more time.

 

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She's a little young for puberty to explain it, bummer.  No, the zipper thing would be an OT issue.  Dyslexia is reading disorder, phonological processing.  If she has issues with zippers, fine motor, sensory, etc. that's all OT.  Given what you're describing, an OT eval might be an interesting way to start.  Usually it's not one thing or the other, kwim?  Dealing with any sensory issues, retained primitive reflexes, etc. would, as our OT put it, lower the 4 alarm fire sirens going off to give her a chance to focus.  And then you come in with the psych for the rest.

 

I can tell you some phrases our psych used to describe ds.  He said "emotional fragility due to anxiety."  That's why I always say you might not get the results you think with a good psych eval, because they connect dots you might not have yet.  She might have a little more going on.  It's nice to get some explanation for why they get *stuck* like that, because then you can move on to techniques that work for kids who get stuck.  Anxiety, getting stuck, cognitive rigidity (another phrase our psych used) these are all things you can get words for and then work at.  Now that I see my ds' getting stuck that way, we talk about flexibility, talk about trying things.  For the anxiety, I'm just in the beginning stages of what to do, so we're just doing basic things (counting backward from 10 to 1).  He's in a small swim class with a veteran teacher, and she frequently comments about how they help him work through the anxiety, backing off, modifying the task, being patient so he can go to the side and not feel overwhelmed.  This is stuff he wants to do and he's not being bad.  It's just hard for him and provokes the anxiety and fragility.  He loves it mind you, so it's not like we're provoking him unnecessarily.  It's just hard and that makes the fragility flare up.  

 

So what our psych did for us, putting words to things, went beyond just getting DSM labels, kwim?  For me, when I can have somebody with fresh eyes explain what's going on, then I can come here and ask what we DO about those things.  

 

Just out of curiosity, *why* doesn't she like writing?  My dd said for years she hated writing, and I think for her it was the ADHD, low working memory, initiation.  We did metronome work and brought in digit spans, and bam she began writing prolifically.  That was also the year I switched her over to an ipad with keyboard.  She also needed VT. She handwrites exceptionally little.  The psych found her handwriting motor control was STILL not automatic at age 12, so it was eating up her working memory.  On top of that she had fine motor issues.  I just notice your mention of zippers and hating writing and I connect them, suggesting an OT eval.  She's just about old enough to profit from Cogmed, so you could look into that.  These are things you can DO to help her when you have the right words for what's going on.  Evals help you target that.  If you find a psych who does Cogmed, they could do your eval or refer you to someone else.  They'll probably also have an OT they like, so one phone call and you'd have both answers.  :)

 

And yes, they can have a very high verbal IQ, have tons inside they can say, and physical problems (fine motor, working memory, etc.) that are making it glitch up.  

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Primarily math, I guess. When we complete an entire Rod & Staff lesson orally, she can zip through the exercise part in 3-5 minutes or less. Depends on the lesson, of course. Composing sentences from scratch can bog her down...for something like paragraph writing about a specific theme. She can walk around the house while playing and narrate fantastical stories from her head with proper mechanics, complex vocabulary, rich dialogue, but ask her to write 3-4 short sentences about a specific theme and you can hear crickets chirping in her head. She has problems with "remember a time when..." and write about it exercises. Or, write about your dog, that kind of thing. Then again, paragraph-writing is a new skill.

 

She can answer reading/listening comprehension questions quickly, even when requiring her to answer in sentence format. History, science, artist/composer study, logic, Spanish all go pretty well, unless there is some surprise writing thrown in. She loves all of these subjects. Spelling bogs her down, but a lot of that probably revolves around dyslexia. When her brain is clicking along and she sounds out everything, she actually can do pretty well. But, some days moving from one sound to the next is a slow process that I can't seem to speed up. When she's in slow mode, she drops the verbal sounding out and resorts to viewing the words in her head. That's when she spells the worst.

 

Physical exercise or any kind of extreme stimulation before or during school is a no-go. I allow no electronic/digital/auditory stimulation at all before school. I try to move from getting out of bed, showering and eating quickly so she doesn't have time to play beforehand. If she plays or reads or anything before school, her brain has a hard time settling into school material. The times I can tell she's not listening, I have to have her talk out whatever is playing in her head, so we can move on. It's often something she was playing before school or a book she read or a movie she watched the night before or something she and the neighbor girl played the day before.

 

Our current sequence of subjects is EM Word-A-Day vocabulary (very short), Rod & Staff 2, WWE 2 (3 times per week), AAR 3, Didax Mental Math 3 for math warm-up, SM 3A, logic (Friday only), Song School Spanish (Tuesday/Thursday) or artist/composer study (Monday/Wednesday), history or science (rotated). Hands-on art on select Fridays.

 

I keep things low key to begin with and then slowly ramp it up as the day progresses.

 

I pretty much scribe anything that is more or less busywork. (Actually, she likes busywork that doesn't involve lengthy bits of writing. Need something circled or underlined? Need a little picture drawn? She's your girl!) She goes to gymnastics on Tuesday evenings and is active in Girl Scouts. We take family field trips fairly often...science center, zoo, museums, that kind of thing. Our lives revolve around her.

 

 

This is happening in math or every subject? What happens if you scribe or use a whiteboard? Do you have radical ideas you think would work? Think radical, like ditch the curriculum and do Family Math the rest of the year. Or pay with food. Or do something physical first for 20min. Is she in a sport or anything physical? You could make the changes you'd make if you knew it was ADHD.
Short sessions, movement, lots of interaction, no assumption they can do or organize on their ow, scribing, work on working memory. I don't thi the curriculum matters as much as how you use it.

 

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OP, with your last couple of posts, I think it is more than simply processing. My slow one needs something to get him moving (even though he might have ADHD inattentive). My older one has sensory issues and ADHD, and we can't do a lot of breaks, movement, stimulation at the beginning of the day or as breaks. You can't get him back once you'lve let him go. My litter, slow processor needs that stuff to make his brain get unstuck.

 

Definitely recommend the OT evaluation--we found OT to help a lot. They can help with self-regulation too (flexibility, knowing when she a tool has turned into a toy, finding appropriate ways to settle themselves, etc.).

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Ah, I see the difference. Thank you! Looks like I'm back to my previous thoughts then...ADHD, sensory issues and dyslexia, among whatever else.

 

 

OP, with your last couple of posts, I think it is more than simply processing. My slow one needs something to get him moving (even though he might have ADHD inattentive). My older one has sensory issues and ADHD, and we can't do a lot of breaks, movement, stimulation at the beginning of the day or as breaks. You can't get him back once you'lve let him go. My litter, slow processor needs that stuff to make his brain get unstuck.

 

Definitely recommend the OT evaluation--we found OT to help a lot. They can help with self-regulation too (flexibility, knowing when she a tool has turned into a toy, finding appropriate ways to settle themselves, etc.).

 

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Wait, you are expecting your 7 y.o. to write paragraphs? *Gently* Is some of the problem possibly due to expectations too? I have identified 2E kids and even at 10 it can be a struggle to write paragraphs. Just because these kids are gifted does not mean they are *advanced* in everything across the board. More often it means they think at a higher level while struggling with basic skills (like writing) and are incredibly asynchronous. Personally, I would consider backing off writing for now while you get some evals. She is only 7. You don't need to write paragraphs at 7 to get to essays by 14.

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I need to figure out how to revamp math. DD used to really like math until the quantity of work picked up. She's pretty good at it when he brain is working right. She's actually better, quicker than me, she gets the Singapore method better/quicker than I do...when her brain is working right. A lot of her miscalculations are due to inattention to details (adds instead of subtracts because she didn't notice the sign changed...that's a big one). Has a hard time switching strategies or creates complex and more time-consuming ones on her own (complex to me anyway). She does very well with whole-parts methodology.

 

I've continually reworked the way we do math to fit her, but I guess I'm just not getting it right. I really don't want to give up Singapore, but I also don't know how/when to add supplements. HIG + Textbook + Workbook already takes an hour and more. (I have IP, but have a hard time fitting it in. Usually, I squeeze some in at the end of a unit/section. I didn't buy CWP and Fan-Math this time around because we weren't getting to them.) We already use Didax Mental Math to warm-up, which she generally likes and I think is beneficial to her in the review department and in switching gears to math. I bought all of Miquon and have used it some (mostly over this past summer). She likes it, but I can't fit it in anymore. We're already up past our eyeballs in math.

 

I need to research and see how I can make Singapore less lengthwise, but enough where we can progress satisfactory. I worry about cutting back so much that I'll regret it later. She's so inconsistent that I can't always/generally tell if something isn't truly clicking or she's just stuck in slow mo. How much time should we be spending on math per day? I budget an hour, but half of that usually goes into HIG and textbook discussion. I haven't timed recently, but math feels like it takes longer than it should.

 

She walked past me as I was reviewing some demo lessons for Teaching Textbooks yesterday and immediately took over the computer. Thought it was neat and fun. Not sure I want to go that route and I'm sure the new would wear off anyway.

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Well, she's closing in on eight. And, it was just the paragraph-writing section of Rod & Staff. We've moved on now. I walked and talked her through it, but did let her have free reign the last day to see what she was capable of. Honest, it wasn't hardcore. At the same time, I'm also aware that public school kids are required to do way more writing. I try to find a happy medium between tailoring material, yet keep some lessons more as-is so that in the event she ever has to go into the public school system, hopefully it won't be completely alien. While I hope this never happens, DH has health issues and things have shaken up quite a bit at his work over the past several years. It wouldn't take much to turn our world upside down.

 

I'm not saying my expectations aren't high. She's an only child...all our eggs are in one basket, so to speak. She has to be fully functional as an adult. She has no siblings to pick up the slack. I admit I'm still learning. Every parent and teaching stage is new to me. She's a complex child, which I didn't fully understand when we first started schooling. (Still don't.) I just tried to make everything hands-on and fun to fit her. She thrived. I've tried to fuel her passions. Now, school isn't as fun or hands-on anymore, not across the board anyway. I try to keep our electives fun and on the light side to balance out the not-so-fun stuff. And truly, things like WWE are not horrid for her. She actually enjoys it a good bit. She likes Rod & Staff and does well with it. I pull the writing way back. I'm not convinced I should skip things I know she won't enjoy, though. Or, that might be somewhat challenging for her. I figure there's a reason they put paragraph-writing in a second grade grammar book. (It was light as far as paragraph-writing goes...the very basics of it.)

 

 

Wait, you are expecting your 7 y.o. to write paragraphs? *Gently* Is some of the problem possibly due to expectations too? I have identified 2E kids and even at 10 it can be a struggle to write paragraphs. Just because these kids are gifted does not mean they are *advanced* in everything across the board. More often it means they think at a higher level while struggling with basic skills (like writing) and are incredibly asynchronous. Personally, I would consider backing off writing for now while you get some evals. She is only 7. You don't need to write paragraphs at 7 to get to essays by 14.

 

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I don't have time to link now. I am on a break, so search this forum for a thread about a Landmark webinar hosted by Dr. Charles Haynes. Though the webinar specifically addresses students with language issues, the webinar is excellent for explaining the subroutines of writing and would benefit any student.

 

There are multiple ways to address specific elements of story and writing that do not involve picking up a pencil. You can also scribe for your DD and use mindmapping.

 

Don't allow the curriculum to drive your homeschool boat. Slow down to meet the needs of the student in front of you.

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One woman's paragraph is another's narration, so there's no issue there.  What you're describing is issues with organization and structure.  Do you do any form of keyword outline or graphic organizer?  Look at Inspiration or the younger version Kidspiration, or do it on a whiteboard or with big paper at an easel or on an ipad with the Popplet app.  Any of those would help her by getting her thoughts organized so she knows what she's trying to do.  With writing there's a tremendous initiation hump, the brain energy required to organize those thoughts.  Then if she has any working memory issues, she gets the structure and BAM loses it.  The key is to go visual with your structure, so you're tapping into her VSL side.  

 

You can use her VSL side more with the spelling.  Freed gives techniques in his book.  

 

Yes, transitions are huge issues with these kids, oh my.  It sounds like you're doing a great job with consistency and structure.  That's absolutely the right thing to be doing!  Clear, consistent, predictable routine.  You can even make it visual, with the plan on the wall so she knows what's coming next.  

 

There's nothing wrong with doing math verbally.  If that was working for her, I would encourage you to continue to do it.  I found my dd needed a *mix* of conceptual work with me and spiral work.  TT is spiral and it can be FABULOUS for these kids.  However for my dd I found a mix was good.  If she likes TT, she could do it and let it help get her faster on her facts, etc.  Fabulous.  But then also come in with your conceptual work together, done orally.  You said she was crazy fast at it when you do it that way, so it's not adding a ton to her day.  You could set a timer and do 15 minutes of TT and 15 minutes with you each day, kwim?  That way the total amount stays reasonable for her age and she has clear, predictable structure.

 

Just as an aside, I think it's fabulous that you're working so much on writing with her.  I honestly don't remember all your posts and entire story, but a highly verbal girl with ADHD, with or without the dyslexia (but especially without) is going to have a ton inside.  If there's no dyslexia, there's no language processing disorder holding her back.  You have to BELIEVE that these amazing things are inside, even when the physical side is so glitchy it's not coming out.  My dd did narrations and dictation at that age, but we also did fun writing.  So wrote her "recipes" onto cards, made captains logs to go with her history, etc. etc.  We did some writing from prompts.  You mentioned prompts, but those sound intensely boring.  Have you looked at the Anti-coloring books?  They're fun.  There was a prompt book Zaccarro of Hickory Press sells.  I have it downstairs.  The prompts were very imaginative and right for that age.  I got it and dd was just past them (maybe 6th grade), so we did the prompts from the Jump In tm instead.  But for the age you're at, they would be adorable.  You want things that are as creative and intriguing as she is, kwim?  Up the creative side of her life.  

 

That's something the psych really emphasized with us.  I thought her creative side was this other thing, just sorta what happens and it would get time if there was time.  Our psych said to decrease her school work and give her MORE time to be creative!  Seriously, a professional neuropsychologist in a major city, someone well-respected and on state boards, said this!!!  WTM downplays creativity, and for some kids it's integral to them and terribly important.  

 

I found it!!! 

 

https://www.hickorygrovepress.com/search.cfm  The book is Unjournaling, and the prompts were so fun and right for that age.  I'm linking it there so you can see some of the other cool things he sells.  His taste is exquisite, very VSL-friendly, very thinking, very creative, very humorous.  You could also look at Listography.  There are a variety of list-making books like that and there might be one (or you could just do something like it together) for her age.

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Thanks for all of the info, insights and suggestions, OhElizabeth. I like the looks of the Hickory Grove products!

 

I don't know why DD thinks she doesn't like writing. She has said it's boring and hard before, but I wonder whether maybe these are things she used to think...almost like a Pavlov reaction now. She actually seems to enjoy copywork, dictation, writing a short number of sentences once she gets going. Maybe it's blank paper syndrome...she tends to freak when something seems like too much work. Could also be that writing often involves spelling, which she hates with a capital H. Knowing she didn't like writing, I was hesitant to use WWE. To see whether she was ready for dictation this past summer, we used sentences from The Modern Speller (vintage...pretty much the same as Dictation Day by Day). We used studied dictation for that and she loved it! Looked forward to it every morning. All in all, WWE 2 goes pretty well. She loves the literature excerpts. I often have to track down audiobook and Kindle books (for her Kindle to read to her), so she can hear the rest of the stories. She doesn't have issues with all of her itty bitty toys and Legos and such, loves drawing, but she's not a fan of cutting either (getting better, though). The first time she held a pencil when she was one, she got the pencil grip right. She's never held a crayon, marker, anything like a baby or toddler usually does with a whole hand. Weird, who knows? I read the zipper thing in some dyslexia literature somewhere...a "symptom" of dyslexia.

 

Looks like I need to get back on the hunt for the "right" curriculum (or supplements). Just when I think we're doing good, things start to plummet. I'm thinking open-and-go is never going to happen for us. So exhausting. (I have writing prompts and graphic organizer supplements...just never occurred to me to do something different than what's in Rod & Staff for the writing exercises.)

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How about if you teach 2 lessons of Singapore the first day and you do one problem from each WB page and she does one problem from each WB lesson. The next day, she does every other problem on both lessons, watching you do every other problem. If she doesn't watch yours or doesn't focus on hers, she has to do more herself. (Not do them correctly, just focusing and trying and learning as a standard to not get more work.)

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That's a thoughtful approach. I'm going to keep that in my back pocket for lessons that really flow well together.

 

I should change my title. After reading through comments and thinking, it's probably good ole ADHD that's slowing her down, not really slow processing.

 

It's been about a week since I've changed how we're doing SM. I've forced myself to just let go and teach it in a much more casual fashion. I've cut way back on her workload and are more or less attacking the work as a team. When her brain starts clicking off or she's showing signs of fatigue, I try to jump in just enough to get things rolling again instead of pointing out that she's not working or she's going too slow or whatever. I hardly use the HIG anymore and we do just enough of the textbook for her to understand the concept (we mostly just read through it). I have a general mental expectation of the minimum number of workbook problems I would like for her to get done. We start with a small sampling (which I try to let her more or less choose...this column or that, choose one from the problems with stars next to them, choose two from those with dots) and then go back to others, if there's time. It's not been 100 percent tear-free, but it's going a lot better than it was.

 

More and more, I see that it's not that she doesn't know how to do the work, but her brain truly won't let her. I'm trying to focus on quality instead of quantity. Hoping things will stick.

 

 

How about if you teach 2 lessons of Singapore the first day and you do one problem from each WB page and she does one problem from each WB lesson. The next day, she does every other problem on both lessons, watching you do every other problem. If she doesn't watch yours or doesn't focus on hers, she has to do more herself. (Not do them correctly, just focusing and trying and learning as a standard to not get more work.)

 

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