WDYT? Top ten percent of households (income)

[creekland]

I certainly agree. However, I also strongly believe that "low-level jobs" are often the jobs that keep much of society running. The world desperately needs rubbish collectors, care givers, retail workers, low-level clerical workers, and other such things. These jobs can indeed be fulfilling as well. 

 

An article about rubbish collectors in NYC recently appeared in a local newspaper (in Europe). It talked about how these people are well-paid and get great job benefits including good job security, and many people want this job for that reason. These workers certainly deserve a living wage, and if NYC indeed pays their rubbish collectors as well as the article suggested, I think this should happen more often.

 

Society's problem is we make ladders.  We automatically put scientists, engineers, doctors, etc, on the top rung and rubbish collectors, fast food workers, retail employees, etc, on the lower rungs.  We give auto respect - awe - to those who are on the top and look down our noses at those filling lower roles often treating them shabbily.  It's not new.  James talks about the same thing happening in the New Testament days.

 

Those who are in our Level Three classes are labeled smart and "have a future" while those struggling in our Level One classes often feel inferior knowing they can't keep up in the Algebra they are tackling as seniors while the Level Threes breezed through it in 8th grade.

 

I wish we could all look at each other as equals with different talents academically, physically, and artistically.  I consider every student I work with to be equal.  I'll help them at whatever level they are at - wanting to pursue top colleges or wanting to pass the state test to get a high school diploma.  It doesn't matter at all to me what level they are at academically and I let them know this.  What I CARE about is their "other" development - being able to be a terrific member of society - playing nicely with each other - showing respect to one another - and doing their job to the best of their ability.  All can do this whether they can integrate f(x) = x^3 or not.  

 

Interestingly enough - James agrees with me.  There's no way I give auto respect or disrespect to anyone, though anyone can earn either regardless of their "position."  Truthfully, all start with respect, but they can drop down some - or even a bit - based upon their actions.  At school I work on THAT as much as the math/science when it's needed.  It's rarely needed in my classes.  It turns out that kids LIKE being thought of as equal regardless of their academic talent and will step up their behavior when it happens.

[Hikin' Mama]

I disagree with this. I've seen thousands of students over the past 15 years via my job in the high school. While those without learning disabilities can easily obtain a high school degree and handle basic classes, there is a huge difference between those with talent in certain areas and those without.

 

NOT everyone can handle Physics or Engineering or Computer Programming. Those fields take a different way of thinking. Anyone might be able to do the basics in them, but not what it takes to do the upper level classes and/or a career. Some get easy As and can go into great depth with barely any studying. Some can pour hours into studying and tutoring sessions and still get lucky to pull out a C.

 

This is similar with other classes too. I had no issues with Calc or Physics, but only got a B in my college English class. It's not that I didn't do the work or attend classes. I just don't "see" what's in the Literature the same way those who got the As did. I see it after they point it out, but not before.

 

Personally, I think many who struggle through and get Engineering degrees without true talent for their degree are some of those minimal percent who are unemployed in their field. Once they get on the job, their lack of talent is discovered and they don't hold onto their job for long. Hubby was recently telling me about one such person... no one knows how or why he got his degree/job, but he sure isn't doing it now after doing dismally on a few local projects that others are fixing.

 

I also think the line of thinking that says "everyone can do it" is part of the problem in our school system now. Humans tend to assume because "they" can do something, everyone can if they try hard enough. It's simply not true. To a point it might be, but not to the point of making a living with it. Can everyone run a 4 minute mile if they practice hard enough? I have my doubts. Can everyone become a star quarterback with enough hours put in? I have my doubts there too. It's no different with academic specialties.

 

Humans do best when they are in the niche that matches their talent and desires.

Creekland, I always love your posts, but I especially love this one!

[Hikin' Mama]

Society's problem is we make ladders. We automatically put scientists, engineers, doctors, etc, on the top rung and rubbish collectors, fast food workers, retail employees, etc, on the lower rungs. We give auto respect - awe - to those who are on the top and look down our noses at those filling lower roles often treating them shabbily. It's not new. James talks about the same thing happening in the New Testament days.

 

Those who are in our Level Three classes are labeled smart and "have a future" while those struggling in our Level One classes often feel inferior knowing they can't keep up in the Algebra they are tackling as seniors while the Level Threes breezed through it in 8th grade.

 

I wish we could all look at each other as equals with different talents academically, physically, and artistically. I consider every student I work with to be equal. I'll help them at whatever level they are at - wanting to pursue top colleges or wanting to pass the state test to get a high school diploma. It doesn't matter at all to me what level they are at academically and I let them know this. What I CARE about is their "other" development - being able to be a terrific member of society - playing nicely with each other - showing respect to one another - and doing their job to the best of their ability. All can do this whether they can integrate f(x) = x^3 or not.

 

Interestingly enough - James agrees with me. There's no way I give auto respect or disrespect to anyone, though anyone can earn either regardless of their "position." Truthfully, all start with respect, but they can drop down some - or even a bit - based upon their actions. At school I work on THAT as much as the math/science when it's needed. It's rarely needed in my classes. It turns out that kids LIKE being thought of as equal regardless of their academic talent and will step up their behavior when it happens.

And this one, too!

[creekland]

Creekland, I always love your posts, but I especially love this one!

 

:blushing:   All I can say is teaching at a local - average - public school for 15 years has done wonders for my education.  "I" was always in the top classes, so had a limited view of the world before that.

 

My view is still limited as it's only one school district in a semi-rural area, but it's far wider than my personal family and IRL friends circle extends.

 

I also like learning a ton from the experiences of the Hive.

 

I don't think learning stops until one dies - or at least it shouldn't.

[skimomma]

Intelligence is a mix of nature and nurture.  The jury is still out on the exact percentage of the contribution of each but there is plenty of evidence that nature is the far bigger factor.

 

Some jobs/careers require more intelligence than others.  Obviously.

 

Every human falls somewhere on the intelligence spectrum and for every above-average person there is a below-average person.  For every extremely intelligent person there is an extremely limited person.  This is NOT a character trait.  Mean, lazy people can be extremely intelligent.  Kind, industrious people can be severely lacking in intelligence.

 

If nature is indeed the largest factor in intelligence, then some people will not be able to do certain jobs no matter how many bootstraps they pull, no matter how many hours they study, no matter how much money their school receives to teach them, etc....  

 

Yes, math is a skill....to a point.  Almost anyone can be taught to do basic arithmetic with enough time and effort.  It really can just be boiled down to steps that can be memorized.  But it is only a handful that can fully comprehend math to the highest levels.  This is true of every academic pursuit.  

 

Economic and educational policies that dismiss these facts are harmful.  To everyone.  It is not a person's fault if they lack the inborn intelligence necessary to hold a job that pays enough for them to live with dignity and comfort.  If it is not their fault, then they should not be punished with a very hard life in the name of poverty.  It is not a person's fault that they are incapable of understanding calculus.  If it is not their fault, then they should not be required to waste their time (and potential) by sitting through the typical college-bound high school math classes in the name of "educational equality."

 

Of course there are people doing jobs that do not require their full intellectual capacity.  That does not mean that there are not indeed people for which those jobs are all they can intellectually handle.

[mommymilkies]

I can try to clarify mommymilkies.  Many people who work low paying jobs such as fast food, gas station, grocery store clerk, etc. do so because they aren't smart enough to do anything else.  They aren't good enough with their hands to pursue a skilled trade either.  They do work hard and they do work their tail off but no real success will be seen.  Outside of working tons of hours and usually multiple jobs they can't afford basic necessities  I don't understand what you find so ridiculous about the idea that intellectual ability varies greatly and those who are lacking it find it necessary to take jobs that don't pay well.

nm

Edited February 18, 2015 by Susan Wise Bauer
Report, don't accuse.

[Luckymama]

nm 

 

Edited February 18, 2015 by Susan Wise Bauer
Quotes deleted post

[Wildcat]

I think people are misinterpreting your posts -- or else I am!

 

I was thinking you were saying that there are people out there at all different intellectual levels, and because of that, not everyone has the same capabilities in terms of the types of jobs they are able to do or the skills they are able to learn.

 

I didn't think you were trying to be derogatory.

 

I agree--- this is how I read the post. I took no offense in it, even though I also worked minimum wage jobs (McDonald's and others), and would probably earn not much more than minimum wage if I went back to work tomorrow seeing as how I have been out of the workforce for over 20 years and never had a high-paying job (even the bank paid barely above minimum wage!!). I am definitely not in the lower intellectual level and I took no offense at what was said.

[mommymilkies]

Please keep reading :)

 

Oh, I did.  Look at post 629.  I'm sorry, but how offensive.  That you must be intellectually disadvantaged to choose a job like a CNA.  Nobody does it because they love "changing adult diapers" as she put it.  But because it is a good job.  A NECESSARY job that you would appreciate if you needed care.  They work hard to care for people.  How is that somehow more menial than sitting at a desk or being the one to sign the prescription sheet?  It doesn't mean you're stupid.  

 

There is a range of intellectual ability across the income range.  Unfortunately those without proper access to education are going to be making less a lot of the time.  That's a problem of inequality, and less of ability if you ask me. Especially with our economy right now when a lot of very smart people are out of work and not because they lack the intelligence to do so.  And heck, some I know leave lucrative jobs where they had advanced degrees because even higher paid jobs sometimes suck.  

[creekland]

 some I know leave lucrative jobs where they had advanced degrees because even higher paid jobs sometimes suck.  

 

Oh there's a few of us who just bypass the full time job thing in its entirety because we are too addicted to our travel and "free-schedule" lifestyle even when we have a mom who is BIG on ladders and worships her engineer SIL and can't figure out where she went wrong with her daughter who won't even accept a job to be a full time teacher - even with several requests to do so and a standing offer where she works.

 

Not that I know this situation personally or anything.  ;)

 

Some find fulfillment in their jobs/career or family.  I find my fulfillment in a little bit of everything and feel fortunate to have married someone who can bring home the bacon almost entirely on his own.  He's happy that I bring my fulfillment into his life (we always travel together) and is perfectly content with the statement that "A Happy Wife is a Happy Life."

 

People can figure out for themselves what intelligence level we might have - though my high school GPA/SAT and college GPA were higher than his.  He's FAR better at engineering than I would ever be.  He has the talent for the job, and that gives him success without us having to budget even a penny toward advertising.  Word of mouth keeps him busier than he can handle (except during the economic downturn years when he ended up doing projects in other destinations - like Africa... and was offered a globetrotting job from that, but turned it down as we really do like being together).  He might, occasionally ask me for math help when he's working on coming up with a new equation for a model or something.   :D   I think we're about as close to equal as we can get - with different niches for our specialties.

[Katy]

I find the entire concept that most people aren't capable to be the worst type of elitist BS. 

 

Of course there are body types and kids who aren't going to be pro athletes in their favorite sports. I wasn't talking about pro athletes, I was talking about jobs that start out of college paying more than $60k. Of course there are medical issues and disabilities that effect some people.  But not most people.  Of course people have innate talent.  But study after study after study have shown that grit, persistence, and effort trump talent every single time.  Even in the more lucrative fields I mentioned up thread.   I'm not talking about the "highest levels" of math, of getting a PhD or being the next Einstein.  Of course those people have both extraordinary talent and training.  But most people are capable of learning accounting or engineering if they want to and they do the work. 

 

DH is an engineer.  He often goes in after another engineer and cleans up messes.  He hasn't ever found that the person who messed things up wasn't capable or intelligent enough to do things correctly.  He has found that they were lazy, that they didn't work hard, that they didn't care, or that they half-a**ed their whole job. 

 

I have run into many people who I thought were immensely talented, but who didn't think they were capable or worthy enough to accomplish their dreams.  In several cases, they worked hard anyway, expecting to fail because they believed people who told them they were average and that average people weren't capable of accomplishing the dream they had.  They were wrong.  They succeeded.  I always wondered where they got the idea that they weren't capable.  Now I'm suspecting too many of them had people tell them they were average and to keep their expectations low.

[skimomma]

 

 

There is a range of intellectual ability across the income range.  Unfortunately those without proper access to education are going to be making less a lot of the time.  That's a problem of inequality, and less of ability if you ask me. 

 

It is both.  Ability is a large factor.  There are many studies that confirm this.  A person of very low intelligence cannot be "educated" into very high intelligence.  The jury is out as to how much exactly intelligence can be increased through education.  But there is no doubt that it is not nearly as much as we (as a people with firm ideals about equality) would like it to be.

 

Do not confuse access to quality education with natural intelligence.  These are two separate issues.

[Scarlett]

I certainly agree. However, I also strongly believe that "low-level jobs" are often the jobs that keep much of society running. The world desperately needs rubbish collectors, care givers, retail workers, low-level clerical workers, and other such things. These jobs can indeed be fulfilling as well.

 

An article about rubbish collectors in NYC recently appeared in a local newspaper (in Europe). It talked about how these people are well-paid and get great job benefits including good job security, and many people want this job for that reason. These workers certainly deserve a living wage, and if NYC indeed pays their rubbish collectors as well as the article suggested, I think this should happen more often.

I absolutely agree. I know many people in low level jobs who will stay there because they focus more on other parts of their life than making more money or getting into a more, for lack of a better word, respectable job. That I think is a separate topic having to do with contentment, taking a different path etc.

[SKL]

Hard work and talent together is of course the ideal.  ;)  Either one can make up for lack of the other up to a point, but not to the point where I want a low-IQ person doing my brain surgery.

 

I agree that it's damaging to tell capable people they can't or it's too hard to go to college.  At the same time IMO it is unwise to tell certain people it is a good idea to make the many sacrifices involved in getting a college degree.

 

I didn't notice anyone saying that "most" people are incapable of success in college.  However, there are lots of people who are better suited for work that one prepares for outside of college.  I for one do not consider that a value judgment.  I grew up working class.  Some of the smartest people I know spent their lives working in factories.  As long as one is doing work that makes him feel fulfilled, and is paying his bills, I'm happy for him.

[creekland]

I find the entire concept that most people aren't capable to be the worst type of elitist BS. 

 

Of course there are body types and kids who aren't going to be pro athletes in their favorite sports. I wasn't talking about pro athletes, I was talking about jobs that start out of college paying more than $60k. Of course there are medical issues and disabilities that effect some people.  But not most people.  Of course people have innate talent.  But study after study after study have shown that grit, persistence, and effort trump talent every single time.  Even in the more lucrative fields I mentioned up thread.   I'm not talking about the "highest levels" of math, of getting a PhD or being the next Einstein.  Of course those people have both extraordinary talent and training.  But most people are capable of learning accounting or engineering if they want to and they do the work. 

 

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.  ;)

 

These studies (at least those I've read) show the success stories and those traits are needed for success.  They fail to look at those who tried and didn't make it.  In a way it's a bit like looking at lottery winners and then suggesting all can win. While technically true, reality differs (though winning the lottery is far longer odds than succeeding in college).

 

I agree that all people (without disabilities) can learn up to a point just as all can take the time to learn football.  The vast majority of our students get a high school diploma (I think we're at 85%).  But that point may not make them successful at anything they choose.  Even if it makes them successful at the degree part - it won't necessarily get them good kudos on recommendations for jobs.  

 

When I look at a young lad or lass who has incredible trouble understanding and remembering the abstract concepts of Algebra I as a junior or senior - telling them to aim for med school because if they just try hard enough they can get there would be cruel.

 

It's possible a handful of them could eventually make it to med school if their brains are in the later developing stages (can happen), but for most, it isn't.  Ditto that with becoming an engineer.

 

It really is possible to see the difference between can't and won't or can't and doesn't have enough foundation to do so now.

[Mergath]

If she is happy there, of course she should stay.

 

The thing is, your mom could have had other options if she wasn't happy in that job. She was intelligent and could have gone to college and done something different if she had wanted to.

 

But there are people for whom a housekeeping job is the level of work they can handle. They aren't college material. They aren't as intelligent as your mom. They may be great housekeepers, but they will never be great lawyers. Your mom probably could have been a great lawyer if that had been her goal, but not everyone would be able to do that.

 

I think that is what Sarah was talking about.

 

I don't disagree with that.

 

What I do disagree with is making it sound like those people are the majority of low wage workers, when in reality they probably make up a very small number.

 

If that is what that poster mean, referring to that very small percentage, she might want to consider rephrasing her post, because she offended quite a few people.

[Joules]

I work in construction in Scotland, and by law new houses have to have an outside or inside drying area to hang up clothes. The 2006 legislation (there might be newer rules too) reads:

 

3.11 Every building must be designed and constructed in such a way that– (a) the size of any apartment or kitchen will ensure the welfare and convenience of all occupants and visitors; and (b) an accessible space is provided to allow for the safe, convenient and sustainable drying of washing.

 

I didn't grow up with a tumble dryer (we were solidly middle class). In 2010, about 55% of households in the UK had one. Often there is nowhere to put one - the housing stock is old and often small - but they also cost money to buy and run.

In a funny contrast, in my neighborhood in the southern U.S., it is against the HOA rules to hang clothes on a clothesline (or anywhere outside, front or back). We can hang things inside, but with the humidity, they don't really get dry...just mildew. (looking forward to moving...)

[Scarlett]

I think telling kids you can be anything you want to be is unrealistic nonsense. It doesn't work that way.

 

I want my son to do his best at life. That requires balance. I do not automatically admire someone who works their fingers to the bone and neglects other areas of their life in order to achieve a goal. In some parts of the world it is necessary to do that for survival...but most of the people on this board do not fall into that category.

[Katy]

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.   ;)

 

These studies (at least those I've read) show the success stories and those traits are needed for success.  They fail to look at those who tried and didn't make it.  In a way it's a bit like looking at lottery winners and then suggesting all can win. While technically true, reality differs (though winning the lottery is far longer odds than succeeding in college).

 

I agree that all people (without disabilities) can learn up to a point just as all can take the time to learn football.  The vast majority of our students get a high school diploma (I think we're at 85%).  But that point may not make them successful at anything they choose.  Even if it makes them successful at the degree part - it won't necessarily get them good kudos on recommendations for jobs.  

 

When I look at a young lad or lass who has incredible trouble understanding and remembering the abstract concepts of Algebra I as a junior or senior - telling them to aim for med school because if they just try hard enough they can get there would be cruel.

 

It's possible a handful of them could eventually make it to med school if their brains are in the later developing stages (can happen), but for most, it isn't.  Ditto that with becoming an engineer.

 

It really is possible to see the difference between can't and won't or can't and doesn't have enough foundation to do so now.

 

Ahh, Creekland.  I don't think I've ever liked someone so much who I also disagreed with so much.   

 

If someone's having trouble with algebra, it's probably not the abstract concepts, it's probably they missed something in fractions in middle school math. Maybe it's a personality conflict with the teacher.  Maybe it's a crappy family life.  Maybe they always copy a friend's homework and never actually learn the concepts, but something is missing.  DH was a math tutor in college and he came to the conclusion that Algebra is more difficult to teach someone than Calculus.

 

I don't think a kid who is failing algebra or chemistry should be told to aim for medical school -- there are too many kids who are overly qualified to fit in those limited slots.  But they could probably handle Accounting, Finance, Nursing, or being a Physician Assistant. And if they stick in those fields and either get a promotion or a grad degree, they can probably make $75k, marry someone else who makes a similar salary, and as a family be in that top 10%.

[Scarlett]

I don't disagree with that.

 

What I do disagree with is making it sound like those people are the majority of low wage workers, when in reality they probably make up a very small number.

 

If that is what that poster mean, referring to that very small percentage, she might want to consider rephrasing her post, because she offended quite a few people.

I don't remember seeing her say most. I remember right away being so confused by the offense some took to her post. She said some people are in low level,jobs because they don't have the intelligence to do more. That isn't an attack of their character.

 

What is so strange is that the ones offended by her observation are the intellictually gifted ones among us.

[maize]

I find the entire concept that most people aren't capable to be the worst type of elitist BS.

 

Of course there are body types and kids who aren't going to be pro athletes in their favorite sports. I wasn't talking about pro athletes, I was talking about jobs that start out of college paying more than $60k. Of course there are medical issues and disabilities that effect some people. But not most people. Of course people have innate talent. But study after study after study have shown that grit, persistence, and effort trump talent every single time. Even in the more lucrative fields I mentioned up thread. I'm not talking about the "highest levels" of math, of getting a PhD or being the next Einstein. Of course those people have both extraordinary talent and training. But most people are capable of learning accounting or engineering if they want to and they do the work.

 

DH is an engineer. He often goes in after another engineer and cleans up messes. He hasn't ever found that the person who messed things up wasn't capable or intelligent enough to do things correctly. He has found that they were lazy, that they didn't work hard, that they didn't care, or that they half-a**ed their whole job.

 

I have run into many people who I thought were immensely talented, but who didn't think they were capable or worthy enough to accomplish their dreams. In several cases, they worked hard anyway, expecting to fail because they believed people who told them they were average and that average people weren't capable of accomplishing the dream they had. They were wrong. They succeeded. I always wondered where they got the idea that they weren't capable. Now I'm suspecting too many of them had people tell them they were average and to keep their expectations low.

Here's the rub: society doesn't run on the kind of jobs that pay 60 grand a year right out of college. There just isn't enough demand for such jobs, nor would there be an economy to support such jobs without the vast majority of people working "lesser" jobs. It may be true that almost anyone could achieve such a lucrative career through hard work and finding/taking advantage of the right opportunities...but it is not possible for everyone. The way our economy currently works, it will never be a possibility for more than a small minority of the population. If everyone did somehow manage to go to college and get a degree qualifying them for one of the currently high paying careers, there would be such a glut of qualified workers that most of them would end up right back flipping burgers, and compensation for those who managed to land a job in their desired career would drop because of too much competition for the available jobs.

[SKL]

The fact remains that roughly half of all workers have below-average IQs.

 

And these are more likely to be concentrated in low-wage jobs than high-paying professions.

 

This is not a problem IMO, therefore I am not sure why people are getting so offended about it.

[Cindy in FL.]

Re going to Disney, I've taken my kids there twice, on the front/back end of a longer vacation. Each time we were only there for a couple days at a time. It is a pretty expensive vacation to take just by itself, because of the cost to travel there. Also, I work out of my computer bag, so I don't really take off much work when I go on vacation.

 

My brother's stepkids' dad used to live in Florida, so they drove down there a couple times. I don't know how they managed the vacation time, but I guess they did. I myself never went to Disney until I was an adult.

 

I think it's great if a family can swing a trip to Disney. I really appreciate all the advice for people who need a budget travel plan. But I have to agree it's not really accessible to everyone, especially those who live far and don't get vacation time. I would view it as a long-term soft goal. Maybe someday there will be enough vacation time and the stars will align....

We live an hour and fifteen minutes from Disney and my four younger boys (19, 17, 15, and 14) have never been. It's expensive in my opinion!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

I don't think a kid who is failing algebra or chemistry should be told to aim for medical school -- there are too many kids who are overly qualified to fit in those limited slots.  But they could probably handle Accounting, Finance, Nursing, or being a Physician Assistant. And if they stick in those fields and either get a promotion or a grad degree, they can probably make $75k, marry someone else who makes a similar salary, and as a family be in that top 10%.

 

I can't imagine that people who fail algebra and chemistry can be PAs and RNs. I was a medical assistant, which is pretty near the bottom rung of the ladder in the medical field, and I couldn't have done that if I'd failed algebra and chemistry.

 

In the first week of vocational school we were told the following by our teachers: "Look around the room. There are 50 of you here today. Only a dozen will finish the course and receive a diploma. The rest will be weeded out as we go, mostly in the first month, for two reasons -- firstly the inability to manage the rest of life's responsibilities while being a student here, and secondly, lacking basic math, science, and English skills to be able to master the new material on time."

 

Well, she was right. About a dozen of us graduated, and those who dropped out or failed did so because of those two reasons.

 

So if a medical assistant (at least the early 90s version, whom I believe were better educated than MAs today) had to be proficient at algebra and chemistry I'd logically assume a PA or RN would have to be quite a bit better than that.

[SKL]

I think telling kids you can be anything you want to be is unrealistic nonsense. It doesn't work that way.

 

I want my son to do his best at life. That requires balance. I do not automatically admire someone who works their fingers to the bone and neglects other areas of their life in order to achieve a goal. In some parts of the world it is necessary to do that for survival...but most of the people on this board do not fall into that category.

 

I tell my kids that by working hard in all the areas presented to them in childhood, they will learn where their talents are and that will guide them in choosing a career.

 

My less intelligent kid has a much better sense of who she is and what she wants to do than most kids her age, including her very bright sister.  As long as nothing terrible befalls her, I have no worries about her future, even though academics are not easy for her.  Now the other kid, I don't know.

[Scarlett]

Ahh, Creekland. I don't think I've ever liked someone so much who I also disagreed with so much.

 

If someone's having trouble with algebra, it's probably not the abstract concepts, it's probably they missed something in fractions in middle school math. Maybe it's a personality conflict with the teacher. Maybe it's a crappy family life. Maybe they always copy a friend's homework and never actually learn the concepts, but something is missing. DH was a math tutor in college and he came to the conclusion that Algebra is more difficult to teach someone than Calculus..

You sound like my mom who is very very math bright. She is convinced I just dont WANT to understand algebra. Um ok. She didn't get her teaching degree until I was a senior and she learned even more about how to teach math from intensive training she had in the years after that...while she was teaching 5 grade. If she had received that training while I was young I might have had a chance. But she didn't and so I didn't learn algebra or any other math well. Just to give you a idea....when I took a test for college entry when I was about 30 I scored 98% on the language portion and 29% on the math. How is that to be explained? It is probably complicated, but the uncomplicated end result is that I don't know math. So for whatever reason I was not going to be doing any career that required passing math.

 

But I am ok with that. I enjoy my life, I love being a mom, I know I can support myself if need be, thanks to other good decisions I made in my life.

[Scarlett]

Dp

[regentrude]

The fact remains that roughly half of all workers have below-average IQs.

 

And these are more likely to be concentrated in low-wage jobs than high-paying professions.

 

This is not a problem IMO, therefore I am not sure why people are getting so offended about it.

 

Yes - but accepting the bolded would require an understanding of the concept of "average".

 

I do not get the controversy.

The poster never said that everybody in a menial job is lacking ability or is not working hard. She merely stated that those people who are less able intellectually do not have the option to have a highly qualified job and are stuck with a low paying job that requires no qualifications.

I can not wrap my mind around why anybody would take offense with this since it seems very obvious, let alone claim that everybody has the same ability and is thus capable of reaching the same goal. That may be politically correct, but is ridiculous.

Stating that students struggle with algebra because they come from difficult homes or have inept teachers is a slap in the face of every parent on these boards who is desperately trying to teach math to a child who has difficulties grasping abstract concepts.

 

But then, maybe if my upbringing would have been right and I did have an adept teacher, I could have been a prima ballerina despite an utter lack of talent... since grit and determination is all that would be required.

 

ETA: The solution can not be to claim everybody is equally capable. The solution is to make sure that everybody can make a contribution according to her or his talents, and by doing so earn a decent living.

[Mergath]

I don't remember seeing her say most. I remember right away being so confused by the offense some took to her post. She said some people are in low level,jobs because they don't have the intelligence to do more. That isn't an attack of their character.

 

What is so strange is that the ones offended by her observation are the intellictually gifted ones among us.

 

The word she used was "many."  Many people are in low wage jobs because they aren't smart enough to do better.

[SKL]

The word she used was "many."  Many people are in low wage jobs because they aren't smart enough to do better.

 

I'm sorry, but that is factually true.

 

[hornblower]

rising on a point of fact wrt IQ

 

The *median* score is 100.

 

Median, not average.

 

About 2/3 of people fall between 85 and 115.

[Scarlett]

The word she used was "many." Many people are in low wage jobs because they aren't smart enough to do better.

Ok. Many. She didn't say most. And a lot of us do agree with her thinking and observation.

[SKL]

rising on a point of fact wrt IQ

 

The *median* score is 100.

 

Median, not average.

 

About 2/3 of people fall between 85 and 115.

 

The average isn't far off from the median though.

 

I knew someone was going to make the above point.  However, I couldn't bring myself to say "below-median" in my comment.  I wanted to talk like regular average people.  ;)

[Mergath]

I'm sorry, but that is factually true.

 

 

I suppose it depends on how you define "many," but I disagree.

[maize]

It is all too easy for people with above average ability in any field to think that their experience is normal and that anyone could do what they do if they only made the effort.

[regentrude]

rising on a point of fact wrt IQ

The *median* score is 100.

Median, not average.

About 2/3 of people fall between 85 and 115.

 

But for the approximately symmetrical distribution of the underlying model, the median and the average coincide.

 

[SKL]

I suppose it depends on how you define "many," but I disagree.

 

So how do you define "many"?

 

[creekland]

 

If someone's having trouble with algebra, it's probably not the abstract concepts, it's probably they missed something in fractions in middle school math. Maybe it's a personality conflict with the teacher.  Maybe it's a crappy family life.  Maybe they always copy a friend's homework and never actually learn the concepts, but something is missing.  DH was a math tutor in college and he came to the conclusion that Algebra is more difficult to teach someone than Calculus.

 

I don't think a kid who is failing algebra or chemistry should be told to aim for medical school -- there are too many kids who are overly qualified to fit in those limited slots.  But they could probably handle Accounting, Finance, Nursing, or being a Physician Assistant. And if they stick in those fields and either get a promotion or a grad degree, they can probably make $75k, marry someone else who makes a similar salary, and as a family be in that top 10%.

 

Maybe it's one of the reasons you listed, but often it isn't.  As I said, it's not difficult to figure out the difference between "can't" and "doesn't yet have the foundation to do so" or "can't" but "won't."

 

Alg is definitely not more difficult to teach than Calc, but those having difficulties with Calc often have Algebra problems.  That's common.  They ended up memorizing Algebra rather than truly understanding it.  Some people have fantastic memorization skills and our schools often teach things in steps rather than in concepts.

 

Your second paragraph illustrates my point exactly.  Different niches for different abilities and desires - though I agree with a later poster who says that this student is also not likely to be a PA or RN.  They could be terrific at languages, history, shop classes, art, or pretty much anything else though.  The math brain (ability) is different than others.

 

No one is saying (non-disability) students aren't successful with success being defined as being able to support themselves at a job they enjoy.  What we are saying is telling high school students they can do anything and be successful at a job if they work hard enough at it is a fallacy.  Fortunately, most naturally align with things they are good at, so it's not an issue.

[SKL]

nm

[Mergath]

So how do you define "many"?

 

 

When someone is making a sweeping generalization about a group of people and states that "many people are..." I usually take it to mean they're referring to at least half, otherwise it would make more sense to say "some people are..."

[creekland]

It is all too easy for people with above average ability in any field to think that their experience is normal and that anyone could do what they do if they only made the effort.

 

How true, how true.

 

Every new teacher coming to our school is convinced that they will be the one who succeeds in making every student an A student.

 

It doesn't take long for them to be introduced to real life.

 

There are, of course, multitudes of reasons why not every student gets As, but one of those reasons IS lack of ability.

 

THEN we get into the whole deal of an A in a Level 2 or 3 class vs an A in the Level 1 class.  Any Level 2/3 student could get an A in the Level 1 class if they don't slouch off, but not every Level 1 student can get an A in the Level 1 class and the vast majority would outright fail in the Level 2/3 class.

 

Until one sees/experiences it for themselves, it's a concept that is difficult for those with average to above average ability to understand.

[QueenCat]

I think people are misinterpreting your posts -- or else I am!

 

I was thinking you were saying that there are people out there at all different intellectual levels, and because of that, not everyone has the same capabilities in terms of the types of jobs they are able to do or the skills they are able to learn.

 

I didn't think you were trying to be derogatory.

 

This is what I was thinking. Not everyone has the same intellectual ability- that's a fact.

[SKL]

When someone is making a sweeping generalization about a group of people and states that "many people are..." I usually take it to mean they're referring to at least half, otherwise it would make more sense to say "some people are"

 

I suspect many or most people will disagree with your "at least half" interpretation of the word.

 

That said, isn't it possible that "at least half" of people in low-wage jobs are not what we consider "college material"?

[Lady Florida.]

Oh the golden Middle Ages. When everybody was raising their own food, without electricity and plumbing and medical care.

 

I can't believe I am reading this kind of posts here. On a board where parents have children who have "fancy diagnoses" .

 

Oh, come on. Doesn't everyone want to go back to a time when a simple diagnoses of "it's a demonic possession!" was the answer. I mean, when has a "fancy diagnosis" ever helped improve anyone's situation? :tongue_smilie:

[5of5]

I'm somewhat surprised in this debate about talent versus practice, no one has mentioned Galdwell's "Outliers: The Story of Success":

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

[Mergath]

I suspect many or most people will disagree with your "at least half" interpretation of the word.

 

That said, isn't it possible that "at least half" of people in low-wage jobs are not what we consider "college material"?

I haven't seen statistics either way, but that's certainly not my experience.

[SKL]

nm

[SKL]

Oh, come on. Doesn't everyone want to go back to a time when a simple diagnoses of "it's a demonic possession!" was the answer. I mean, when has a "fancy diagnosis" ever helped improve anyone's situation? :tongue_smilie:

 

I am thinking how fun it would be if all the parents of kids with behavior issues went to their teachers and explained "the child is possessed."  I think it would be especially amusing in my kids' Lutheran school.  :P

 

[creekland]

Oh, come on. Doesn't everyone want to go back to a time when a simple diagnoses of "it's a demonic possession!" was the answer. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ahh, another possibility I missed!   :lol:

 

 

We did actually have some conversations about this with youngest when he was diagnosed with JME (a type of epilepsy) at age 16.  He's really, really fortunate he lives now instead of in those "Golden Years" when who knows what the "treatment" would have been.  His presentation of his seizures sure would have been classic for demonic - esp since the first time it was seen locally was in our church (and some "idiot" [sic] there called the rescue squad rather than a priest).  Even my doc-resistant self came to the quick conclusion that this just might be a "need" best addressed by a few doctor visits rather than a "want."  There were certainly prayers offered too, but we didn't actual pray for demons to be gone.  How thoughtless of us!

 

And now he's living a normal life as a freshman college student.

 

Again, I'm super glad we were able to do so without having to worry about busting our budget.  Everyone should have that right - not just for the medical care - but also not to have it busting their budget.

[SKL]

One wonders what sort of accommodations schools would be required to provide for a possessed child.