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Has anyone tried: Math in a box with Susan O Johnsey?

I am looking for a geometry program  that  uses the Jurgenson geometry text. My DD is In public school so that sadly rules out the  Wilson Hill online geometry course. I have never taken geometry so I would not be able to help my DD.

I am searching for something that is more rigorous than the public school class that will do a much better job of teaching proofs.

My hope would be that she get used to feeling some degree of  frustration  and not give up.

 

I have found a tutor but he is not familiar with the Jurgenson text, but willing to look it over.  I would like to supplement this with more comprehensive type lectures. Asynchronous classes would be fine.

 

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

 

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I've never heard of Susan O Johnsey's Math in a Box before.  But in checking out her website it looks promising.  It's definitely affordable for an online class.  And it looks like she grades the work as well which not all will do. 

 

A teacher's presentation style is also an important consideration.  Some teachers simply do not connect well with certain students while others are harder to follow.  I couldn't easily find a sample lesson video on her website.  But in doing a more extensive search found her on youtube here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zj50_nbaVg

 

In reviewing her lessons online I find them relatively easy to follow.  If you do decide to move forward with the course I recommend playing a few video samples for your DD.  That can help gauge how well your DD will respond to her instruction style.

 

Duke's TIP program also offers an asynchronous Geometry course based upon Jurgensen with DVD lessons.  Though I have not found samples of their lessons..  In addition I don't think they offer grading or further assistance if the student has questions or other issues.  If that is the case it would seem that Susan offers more.

 

 Just curious, how did you find her?  I don't see any mention of her program on the WTM forum.  So you may be the first which I know can be a bit scary.  But if everything checks out and it meets your asynchronous requirements among other important aspects then it may be worth giving a try.  Please report back if you do.  I'm not sure you will find someone here with direct experience.  You could also ask her for some references from existing or prior student families.  

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I have a DS who is using the Duke TIP Geometry course with Jurgensen.  The program is meant to be used independently by the student, with a mentor who grades exams.  He is enjoying the material, and overall its been a great fit for him.  He does find the video lectures frustrating, though.  They cannot be rewound or fast-forwarded, so if you accidently hit something and the video is switched off, you must start over from the beginning again.  He also finds them boring.  His words were "Mom, this could kill someone!  Death by boredom."  However, the program as laid out in the student guide and mentor materials has worked wonderfully.  And, like I said, DS is really enjoying the course (which makes me think the lectures are not all that bad).  Aside from the slightly lacking videos, it's a great program for a kid who enjoys geometry and is motivated to work independently. 

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Derek, I found it through online search for online class with Jurgensen. Her teaching style on the videos are not engaging at all (to me) and I fear my DD would tune this out. I am going spend more time digging at this site.

 

HMMMMMM, what is more important: engaging teaching that your child can follow or a wonderfully written text?

 

I like the videos of DO and MWB and Chalkdust.  My DD prefers shorter videos where they work on smart board w/o seeing the teacher with clear concise lectures.

 

This is not for a grade but to help form a strong foundation. 

 

Alas, My DD has yet to start Algebra I so I know I am jumping the gun. I feel good about the Foerster with MWB.

 

Any thing we try I will certainly post my review: the Math in the box is certainly affordable but I am afraid of losing my daughter's confidence and she wouldn't want to try another program after a failed program

 

 

 

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Yeah, it's a tough call.  If the teacher puts her to sleep it may be a no go.  I definitely factor that as even to this day I recall boring teachers vs. engaging ones and what a difference that made for me and the entire class.  Not that everything needs to be exciting and fun but having the ability to connect with students at a certain level is important, IMO.  That said I think this also does vary per student.  So some may love these classes or at least mentally connect with them and the presentation style.  I've definitely heard worse before in homeschool circles as well as the brick and mortar classroom environment. 

 

Regarding jumping the gun I'm also a planner.  What I recommend doing when you get closer is to simply show her a few different samples from a list you've narrowed to lets say 2 or 3 options.  Then let her tell you which she feels works better for her.  It helps when allowing kids to participate in such decisions.  It also give them a greater sense of ownership which is especially helpful when it gets more difficult.

 

I love the quote by RBK mama's son regarding Duke's TIP lectures, BTW:  "Mom, this could kill someone!  Death by boredom."    :D  :p 

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  • 2 weeks later...

OH, I find this discouraging. My son really wants to use Jurgensen, and I really don't want to do this on our own.

 

Math in a Box would meet our needs - the lectures are boring, but he would only have to watch them if he needed them, and "self-paced plus grading" are exactly what we need. But it seems risky - can't find any reviews anywhere!

 

Duke TIP seems doable but I know my husband will be annoyed that the videos can't be forwarded/rewound. And it looks like you have to watch all of them and do all the work before you can move on to the next lesson. My son would be annoyed that he would have to watch them, even if he was comfortable with working just from the book in that lesson.

 

We just can't swing the Wilson Hill Class without shortchanging other classes.

 

Has anyone used the Seton Hall correspondence class? I can't find any reviews for this either....

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OH, I find this discouraging. My son really wants to use Jurgensen, and I really don't want to do this on our own.

 

Math in a Box would meet our needs - the lectures are boring, but he would only have to watch them if he needed them, and "self-paced plus grading" are exactly what we need. But it seems risky - can't find any reviews anywhere!

 

Duke TIP seems doable but I know my husband will be annoyed that the videos can't be forwarded/rewound. And it looks like you have to watch all of them and do all the work before you can move on to the next lesson. My son would be annoyed that he would have to watch them, even if he was comfortable with working just from the book in that lesson.

 

We just can't swing the Wilson Hill Class without shortchanging other classes.

 

Has anyone used the Seton Hall correspondence class? I can't find any reviews for this either....

 

Liza,

 

Given your options and limited budget I would recommend at least keeping Math in a Box with Susan O Johnsey under consideration.  I personally didn't find the lectures 'that' bad.  And she does provide much more support than TIP including what appears to be grading of proofs. If she does let me tell you that is no small thing!  Proofs are an integral part of this text and any associated course.  If WHA was out of our reach I would definitely be looking more into her class.  Who's to say Seton Hall would be any better?  It may in fact provide less teacher support and also have boring lectures.  

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Thanks Derek. I am reacting in part to her website lol! Judging a book by its cover, yes, but it looks outdated and confusing. That plus lack of reviews makes me leery of just paying $160. to an unknown entity. Only 3 days for a refund. Maybe that is standard?

 

I have been homeschooling for a long time and the only online classes we've done have been OK State German and ALEKS for math.  OSU didn't even biil us till after the first few months of each class and we got a free trial at ALEKS, so each time we knew exactly what we were getting before we paid. Online programs like The Potter's School, etc. have lots of customers - satisfied and otherwise! - here on the boards so I can really get specific info if I need it.

 

But. I am going to spend some more time at her site and see if I can find out more.

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Thanks Derek. I am reacting in part to her website lol! Judging a book by its cover, yes, but it looks outdated and confusing. That plus lack of reviews makes me leery of just paying $160. to an unknown entity. Only 3 days for a refund. Maybe that is standard?

 

I have been homeschooling for a long time and the only online classes we've done have been OK State German and ALEKS for math.  OSU didn't even biil us till after the first few months of each class and we got a free trial at ALEKS, so each time we knew exactly what we were getting before we paid. Online programs like The Potter's School, etc. have lots of customers - satisfied and otherwise! - here on the boards so I can really get specific info if I need it.

 

But. I am going to spend some more time at her site and see if I can find out more.

 

Yes, I can understand the concern and somebody has to go first.  But being the guinea pig can feel scary, especially when its your child and money.  If I am going to spend my hard earned money on any class I have a 'laundry list' of questions I ask the school and/or teacher, usually both.  I did this with WHA last year.  It was their first year and I felt a bit like a guinea pig myself.  Although many of their teachers were already well known through another school.  After hearing from both the instructor and the administration I felt comfortable enough that I was making an informed decision in the right direction.  I highly encourage you to ask her your tough questions and see how she responds.  I wouldn't base everything off the website alone.

 

With regards to refunds that varies a lot per online provider.  Her policy is much more lax than WHA, that's for sure.  She let's you actually start the course and still receive a refund.  I really don't think it's unreasonable.   Here is the WHA policy which I think is pretty standard.  Note this is all 'before' the start of class:

 

Fees, Payment & Refunds: The tuition may vary by class as specified in the registration system. The total cost is payable at the time of registration. For full year courses, the following withdrawal & refund policy applies:

* Withdrawal requests received within 2 weeks of registration and prior to June 1 will receive a 100% refund less a $50 administrative fee.

* Withdrawal requests received prior to June 1 and after 2 weeks from the date of registration will receive a 75% refund.

* Withdrawal requests received after May 31 and before July 1 will receive a 50% refund.

* Withdrawal requests received after June 30 will not receive a refund of any amount. 

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Wow - I had no idea how refunds worked! That does change my perception quite a bit.

 

Since we are not planning to use a class like WHA, we don't need to decide any time soon.

 

He wants to try it with no outside support beyond what he can find on the internet, like those videos on Youtube - thanks, JadeORchidSong!! So I ordered a copy and we will spend some time with it next week. If he likes it, we agreed that we will get a head start over the summer. We can always register with Math in a Box/Seton or order the Duke TIP materials in September. I fully expect that he will be happy for the help!

 

 

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Liza - Just FYI, you don't have to use the DVD for TIP and I know you don't have to watch the whole video because when I previewed it, I skipped most of the video & went right to the 'interactive lessons.' I could probably take the interactive quiz right now, too. I'm sure there are ways to game the system. (It gives you three tries go through everything & then gives you the answers.)

 

I think you'll be fine if you've made it this far in homeschooling. Good luck!

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Thanks so much, RootAnn! Big question - how would I handle grading proofs? Do they have different several different answers, or a way to help me figure it out? I am not strong in math - especially Geometry. I have nightmare memories of High School!! I suppose I could learn along with him, but I already teach English and History and plan to be available for Science and am working out how much I need to be involved in Spanish. Math has always been the subject I left them to do independently.

 

I used Teaching Textbooks with my older 2 (with mixed results - oldest was very successful, next one needed more) because I was so much busier then. With experience, I can see that TT just won't be enough for my son. Now I have the time to choose what works best for him, not just what works best for the family as a whole, kwim?  He benefits from being the youngest!!

 

 

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Are these from WHA?

 

No, that's why I am a bit surprised you found them.  It looks like they are from a public middle school teacher's Geometry class in California.  Here is his website:  http://www.askmrh.com/Home

 

You and VANURSEPRAC are both to be commended for your advanced research and Googling skills in finding these more obscure Jurgensen resources.   ;)

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No, that's why I am a bit surprised you found them.  It looks like they are from a public middle school teacher's Geometry class in California.  Here is his website:  http://www.askmrh.com/Home

 

You and VANURSEPRAC are both to be commended for your advanced research and Googling skills in finding these more obscure Jurgensen resources.   ;)

 

 

You guys are my mentors!!

 

As I say, It takes a Village......

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No, that's why I am a bit surprised you found them.  It looks like they are from a public middle school teacher's Geometry class in California.  Here is his website:  http://www.askmrh.com/Home

 

You and VANURSEPRAC are both to be commended for your advanced research and Googling skills in finding these more obscure Jurgensen resources.   ;)

How did you confirm that they are for Jurgensen's book? The "Class Info" links on his site are dead links.

 

Anyone knows how which Algebra book he uses?

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How did you confirm that they are for Jurgensen's book? The "Class Info" links on his site are dead links.

 

Anyone knows how which Algebra book he uses?

 

Good question. I previously assumed it was Jurgensen because a board member said so (I'm trying to remember who linked this set of videos a few months ago when I first saw it on these boards). I crossed checked images from one of his videos (planning proofs 2.6) with the Jurgensen textbook. He discusses Theorem 2-7 and it matches Theorem 2-7 in the textbook I have (1997 edition).

 

ETA: His Algebra videos seem to line up with Dolciani (mine is the 2000 edition of Structure and Method Book 1) topic headers.

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You guys inspired me to look for more Jurgensen resources.  Its like a treasure hunt!  :p   I found some really good Jurgensen lessons from a teacher who has been using the 'flipped classroom' approach to instruction.  I find his presentation style engaging, similar to Derek Owens.  There are a few chapters missing.  But the rest are there which align with the book.  He's even added in a Chapter 0 as a pre-Geometry primer:  https://www.youtube.com/user/MrHammysMathClass/playlists

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... I crossed checked images from one of his videos (planning proofs 2.6) with the Jurgensen textbook. He discusses Theorem 2-7 and it matches Theorem 2-7 in the textbook I have (1997 edition).

 

ETA: His Algebra videos seem to line up with Dolciani (mine is the 2000 edition of Structure and Method Book 1) topic headers.

 

If you click "About" on askmrh's channel home page it lists the text books...

 

Algebra: Structure and Method, Book 1

Geometry by Jurgensen

 

Thank you very much! I have both those books and this will be very useful when we get around to using them. :)

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You guys inspired me to look for more Jurgensen resources. Its like a treasure hunt! :p I found some really good Jurgensen lessons from a teacher who has been using the 'flipped classroom' approach to instruction. I find his presentation style engaging, similar to Derek Owens. There are a few chapters missing. But the rest are there which align with the book. He's even added in a Chapter 0 as a pre-Geometry primer: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrHammysMathClass/playlists

I like these vidoes a lot. Thanks, Derek!

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You guys inspired me to look for more Jurgensen resources.  Its like a treasure hunt!  :p   I found some really good Jurgensen lessons from a teacher who has been using the 'flipped classroom' approach to instruction.  I find his presentation style engaging, similar to Derek Owens.  There are a few chapters missing.  But the rest are there which align with the book.  He's even added in a Chapter 0 as a pre-Geometry primer:  https://www.youtube.com/user/MrHammysMathClass/playlists

 

He even sounds a little like Derek Owens. :laugh: Great find!

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   You guys inspired me to look for more Jurgensen resources.  Its like a treasure hunt!  :p   I found some really good Jurgensen lessons from a teacher who has been using the 'flipped classroom' approach to instruction.  I find his presentation style engaging, similar to Derek Owens.  There are a few chapters missing.  But the rest are there which align with the book.  He's even added in a Chapter 0 as a pre-Geometry primer:  https://www.youtube.com/user/MrHammysMathClass/playlists

:hurray: This is the style I like and my DD prefers, Thank You  

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I like these vidoes a lot. Thanks, Derek!

 

I thought you might like these.

 

He even sounds a little like Derek Owens. :laugh: Great find!

 

When I first heard him speak I was thinking the same thing!  Like, is this Derek Owens' brother or something?  lol   :tongue_smilie:

 

:hurray: This is the style I like and my DD prefers, Thank You  

 

VANURSEPRAC, yes, I was thinking about you and your DD with this one.   A bit more engaging than Math in a Box I presume.  :thumbup:

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You guys inspired me to look for more Jurgensen resources.  Its like a treasure hunt!  :p   I found some really good Jurgensen lessons from a teacher who has been using the 'flipped classroom' approach to instruction.  I find his presentation style engaging, similar to Derek Owens.  There are a few chapters missing.  But the rest are there which align with the book.  He's even added in a Chapter 0 as a pre-Geometry primer:  https://www.youtube.com/user/MrHammysMathClass/playlists

 

I like these much more than the askmrh videos, but are you sure they go with the Jurgensen text?  The chapters don't quite line up.  I'm sure you could still use them, but you'd have to move things around a bit to correspond with the text.

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I like these much more than the askmrh videos, but are you sure they go with the Jurgensen text?  The chapters don't quite line up.  I'm sure you could still use them, but you'd have to move things around a bit to correspond with the text.

 

Alas, apparently I spoke to soon.  Sorry folks. :sad:  When searching for Jurgensen Geometry these came up.  After looking at the chapters initially they seemed to match.  However after rbk mama's post I looked at them further and though similar there is 'not' a one to one mapping.  Some chapters vary more than others.  Though the lessons are still relevant it definitely would take some additional mapping to use them.  I think they could be used in addition to something else like like askmrh.

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Big question - how would I handle grading proofs? Do they have different several different answers, or a way to help me figure it out?

 

Liza - I don't know what to tell you. They don't have several different answer suggestions. Your son would need to 'correct' his own homework proofs, learning from the answer key (odd problems in the back, solutions guide if you purchase it). Perhaps a local teacher, parent, or college math major would be able to help with grading (the proof quizzes) every couple of weeks? Honestly, you could probably find a Hive member who could help if you could figure out a reimbursement (chocolate or coffee card through the mail?) and a method-of-transmittal...

 

You and VANURSEPRAC are both to be commended for your advanced research and Googling skills in finding these more obscure Jurgensen resources.   ;)

 

Alas, apparently I spoke to soon.  Sorry folks. :sad:  

 

... And Derek doesn't de-throne the Advanced Research / Googling Skill Champions!  :lol:

... and I love that multi-quote is back even if the edit function isn't working so well.

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Liza - I don't know what to tell you. They don't have several different answer suggestions. Your son would need to 'correct' his own homework proofs, learning from the answer key (odd problems in the back, solutions guide if you purchase it). Perhaps a local teacher, parent, or college math major would be able to help with grading (the proof quizzes) every couple of weeks? Honestly, you could probably find a Hive member who could help if you could figure out a reimbursement (chocolate or coffee card through the mail?) and a method-of-transmittal...

 

... And Derek doesn't de-throne the Advanced Research / Googling Skill Champions!  :lol:

... and I love that multi-quote is back even if the edit function isn't working so well.

 

I was just thinking the same thing for the folks who may be using Jurgensen without someone to review and grade the proofs.  Since some of those lectures do cover the writing of proofs and more could probably be found the main piece left a student will need help with is in refining their proof writing skills.  This can be an iterative learning process like learning how to write an effective essay through writing then refining and rewriting.  Learning how to write logically complete as well as efficient proofs is something a good Geometry teacher or tutor would best be able to help with.  They need to have skills beyond simply following formulas which some of the more modern Geometry textbooks emphasize.  I don't think any book, manual or automated grading system will be able to replace this role accurately or effectively.  I would explore some of the online options as well like http://www.tutor.com/subjects/geometry

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How did you confirm that they are for Jurgensen's book? The "Class Info" links on his site are dead links.

 

use the TOC to confirm

Geometry

by Jurgensen (Houghton Mifflin/McDougal Littell)  2000

Semester A

Ch 1 Points, Lines, Planes, and Angles

Ch 2 Deductive Reasoning

Ch 3 Parallel Lines and Planes

Ch 4 Congruent Triangles

Ch 5 Quadrilaterals

Ch 6 Inequalities

Ch 7 Similar Polygons

Semester B

Ch 8 Right Triangles

Ch 9 Circles

Ch 10 Constructions and Loci

Ch 11 Areas of Plane Figures

Ch 12 Areas and Volumes of Solids

Ch 13 Coordinate Geometry

Ch 14 Transformations

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  • 2 weeks later...

We got the book and he really likes it! We did spend some time at the Math in a box site, looking at her sample lessons. I was impressed and he was - horrified by all the work he would have to send in. I felt like a bad Mom but it made me laugh!

 

Well, we still have time to decide. Once I get all his other courses set, it will be easier to choose the right way to handle Geometry.

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  • 6 months later...

We just finished Day4 of the Seton Home Geometry syllabus for Jurgensen Geometry and I though that I would share the basics.

 

First, they sent a Course Manual that has 34 weeks, 5 days per week scheduled. It covers through Chapter 12 and then has an Optional plan for Ch 13 for 2 more weeks. There are 12 tests, 3 per quarter, that you can mail or scan and upload. Seton grades the tests. At the end of each Quarter I would give them an average homework grade and they use that, as well as the 3 test scores, to assign a grade. I have a calendar year to have my son finish the program.

 

The daily lessons are fairly detailed. Here is a random example, summarized:

Skim section 6-3 "Indirect Proof". {Definition/explanation of an Indirect Proof}

Read/take notes on Section 6-3. Study the two examples carefully. Note the paragraph form, not two column format.

Review your notes and steps in writing an IP.

Classroom Exercises - 5 of them

Written Exercises - 9 of them

Extras exercises if you need/want more practice.

 

Another random lesson:

Finish work from Section 7-6.

Study notes and read the Chapter Summary.

Do the Chapter Review

 

Each lesson is supposed to follow a basic format:

Watch the short video Tips.

Skim the reading assignment, then read and take notes.

Work out the assigned problems. They recommend that the student checks each problem as they go, not check them all at once later. They also suggest reworking any incorrect problem.

 

Then there is the Online site. There are short videos (voiceover with text and graphics) with Tips for each section, detailed answer keys for all the Classroom Exercises (the Solutions Manual tends to be brief), and a chart for each chapter with diagrams of things like "Postulate 4 - Angle Addition Postulate" from Chapter 1 and "Theorem 6-4 Triangle Inequality a+b>c" from Chapter 6.

 

The Online introduction suggests assigning 2 math periods per day, like it was in school -class first and then homework later. They also say that the periods should be about 50m. They are also realistic about the possibility that the student may not be able to get all of the problems done during their math period, so they have a list of essential problems for each lesson.

 

They also offer help. There is a message board that already has some answers - I guess like an FAQ? He can also call or e-mail a math counselor. And they have a whiteboard function, so my son and the counselor can look at each other's diagrams while they talk.

 

All in all, I have already found a lot to like. The only possible negative I have found are the periodic exhortations to prayer. We are Christians, but not Catholics, and being encouraged to pray to a particular Saint or his Guardian Angel for help is just very different. If you are irritated by any religious content, this would probably bother you.

 

I hope that was clear! I know we haven't used it for very long, but I wanted to get this review up before I got too busy and forgot.

 

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I've never heard of Susan O Johnsey's Math in a Box before.  But in checking out her website it looks promising.  It's definitely affordable for an online class.  And it looks like she grades the work as well which not all will do. 

 

A teacher's presentation style is also an important consideration.  Some teachers simply do not connect well with certain students while others are harder to follow.  I couldn't easily find a sample lesson video on her website.  But in doing a more extensive search found her on youtube here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zj50_nbaVg

 

In reviewing her lessons online I find them relatively easy to follow.  If you do decide to move forward with the course I recommend playing a few video samples for your DD.  That can help gauge how well your DD will respond to her instruction style.

 

Duke's TIP program also offers an asynchronous Geometry course based upon Jurgensen with DVD lessons.  Though I have not found samples of their lessons..  In addition I don't think they offer grading or further assistance if the student has questions or other issues.  If that is the case it would seem that Susan offers more.

 

 Just curious, how did you find her?  I don't see any mention of her program on the WTM forum.  So you may be the first which I know can be a bit scary.  But if everything checks out and it meets your asynchronous requirements among other important aspects then it may be worth giving a try.  Please report back if you do.  I'm not sure you will find someone here with direct experience.  You could also ask her for some references from existing or prior student families.  

She was mentioned in the thread with a sticky on geometry. I read about her there a few weeks ago when I first came to this board.

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We just finished Day4 of the Seton Home Geometry syllabus for Jurgensen Geometry and I though that I would share the basics.

 

First, they sent a Course Manual that has 34 weeks, 5 days per week scheduled. It covers through Chapter 12 and then has an Optional plan for Ch 13 for 2 more weeks. There are 12 tests, 3 per quarter, that you can mail or scan and upload. Seton grades the tests. At the end of each Quarter I would give them an average homework grade and they use that, as well as the 3 test scores, to assign a grade. I have a calendar year to have my son finish the program.

 

The daily lessons are fairly detailed. Here is a random example, summarized:

Skim section 6-3 "Indirect Proof". {Definition/explanation of an Indirect Proof}

Read/take notes on Section 6-3. Study the two examples carefully. Note the paragraph form, not two column format.

Review your notes and steps in writing an IP.

Classroom Exercises - 5 of them

Written Exercises - 9 of them

Extras exercises if you need/want more practice.

 

What text book edition (year and ISBN) does this program use?

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What text book edition (year and ISBN) does this program use?

 

I found the books used through Amazon. Seton does sell them as well.

Text

2004 Impression

Copyright 2000, 1997, 1994, 1992, 1990 Houghton Mifflin

ISBN: 0-395-97727-4

 

Solution Key'

2004 Impression

Copyright 1994, 1992, 1990 Houghton Mifflin

ISBN-10: 0-395-67766-1

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