Help! New to forum & DD struggles with reading and writing

[Guest Steph M]

Hi, I just joined the WTM community tonight to get some referral help.  I am searching high and low on the internet for any help regarding my daughter's learning struggles and came across this site when trying to find reviews on Dianne Craft's Brain Integration Manual.  

 

Daughter's background:

1) 3rd grader--I pulled her from the local public school because she was testing below grade level in reading and math and I knew that the atmosphere of the school was not conducive to helping her learn.  We fought daily every afternoon after school the past two years over trying to get her homework done (she never did any of it and the teachers always let it slide) and her behavior at home regarding other issues indicated high stress in her life.  Repeatedly talked to her teachers about her performance and the school work samples I did see and the teachers all indicated that she was "fine," yet she could not read to me, could not write a complete sentence that was legible or made sense, etc.  Asked to have her tested and her teacher told me that there were many other students who performed much worse than my daughter, so she knew the school wouldn't support having her tested when they'd want to test others first.  I put her into an online public school this year so that I could try to get her tested by the state (too much $$ for us to do privately).  I wasn't afraid to try to teach her at home because I had four years of classroom teaching experience before leaving to raise a family.

 

2)  Obvious learning struggles this year led to us having her tested by school psychologist for learning disabilities and she met with a speech pathologist and eye doctor for additional tests.  I thought my daughter might have dyslexia but test results showed that my daughter didn't have any learning disabilities BUT both the school psych and the speech pathologist did say that something obviously wasn't right.  Suggestions were made that maybe she has ADD (based on their interactions with her during the tests) and some organizational issues in the brain.  Eye doctor confirmed that she needed glasses and we just started Visual Therapy for tracking issues.  

 

Continued research via google led me to Dianne Craft and my daughter displays most of the signs of processing deficiencies related to writing, reading, and attention mentioned on her site.  Reviews on Dianne Craft on this forum are mixed so I'm unsure if it's worth the financial investment.  I looked into the LiPS program since that seems to be highly recommended but that is really, really expensive in my area if we go to a local provider.  Even the workshop to learn to use the program at home would be too much for us.  I also started reading about the Barton program online and am considering maybe trying the first level to see if it's helpful. 

 

I am really trying to help my daughter in both her reading and writing.  She hates to read and will fight me tooth and nail so she can avoid reading (even though it is getting slightly better).  However, she will read in short spurts if she really has to (it will take me a long time to get her to do so but she will do it).  Longer than five minutes produces the yawns, head on the table, and the "I'm too tired" comments.  But it's not her reading I'm concerned about at this moment because I think some of her reading struggles are related to her visual tracking issues.  It's her writing that I'm concerned about.  She CANNOT write to save her life.  She can verbally give me every answer for whatever I need (sometimes struggles with explaining herself well and can't always find the correct words in her answers...but she can talk, talk, talk!). However, even if she can tell me the correct answer in one sentence, she cannot turn around and write that same sentence on a piece of paper.  She can copy OK.  It takes her awhile since she has to look at each word individually (and sometimes each letter in the word to spell it correctly), but she cannot form her own sentence and then write it down...even if she just said it out loud a few seconds before.  Tantrums begin anytime we start a lesson that requires some kind of writing beyond one or two-word answers. If she has to write a math story problem as part of her assignment, she just gives up and skips that part of the assignment (or assessment) altogether.  I just purchased Dragon software for my daughter after the speech pathologist suggested it and will see how that works once it's loaded on our computer.  I'm hoping that will help, but I still REALLY want my daughter to be able to write...without the aided use of software.  I'm OK with her using the software if writing tires her out easily.  But I also want her to be able to write via hand when needed, or, at least, for some of her assignments.  I don't want her totally dependent on using speech recognition software.

 

I'm writing because I need referrals for any kind of writing and/or reading programs/curriculum or suggested therapies that I can do at home with my daughter to help her improve her writing and reading.  Her teacher from the Virtual Academy suggested Step Up to Writing.  Are any of you familiar with this program and have you seen or heard of success using it?  Online research has gotten me overwhelmed (as well as reading this forum...SO much info out there and not enough time to read and process it all).

 

With sincere thanks,

Stephanie

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Sorry this will be quick but first, welcome to the boards.

 

2nd, I encourage you to cut out lots of required writing while you work through the other issues.  Vision issues can also affect writing.   And VT can be exhausting.  completely over the top exhausting.  So can the vision issues themselves.  I, myself, have vision issues.  My son went through VT.  Both can be so draining.  Just back off right now since she is so resistant and your are facing VT.  

 

Get her typing (if she isn't already) and using Dragon but it will take time to get proficient at both.  Don't expect output through either for quite a while.  Just give her time to practice those things and get proficient before you start expecting a ton of output.  Let her dictate her responses and you write them down when she has to write something.  I know you want her independently writing, but you may need to just keep all expectations in this area really, really basic and small until she has had VT and maybe worked through some of her reading issues.

 

3rd, since money is really tight, I would urge you not to purchase anything else for curriculum just yet.  Make a list of things you are interested in pursuing, take notes as you get responses and reviews, then just let all of this percolate a bit.  In the meantime, you might want to step back a bit from formal schooling.   Listen to audio books together.  Do some educational projects together that tie to something she is genuinely interested in.  Take field trips.  Work on a specific skill set she would like to learn or improve (archery, knitting, chess, piano, etc. just something that she can work to master and feel good about).  Help her see some purpose for working on all of these skills that are challenging for her.  Help her to see joy in life while she works through her struggles.  You can keep her exposed to content so she doesn't fall behind there by doing the read-alouds, audio books, documentaries and projects.  The basic skills of reading and writing can be worked on separately.

 

Hugs and good luck.

 

Edited to add, if you start her typing I would encourage you to get a typing program so the typing program is the one telling her what to do next (one less thing you are at odds with her on and it can help you keep track of how her key strokes are going).  And adjust the wpm requirements (make sure you get a program that will) so she is focusing on accurate finger placement, not rushing to beat the clock.  Plan on the acquisition of typing taking a lot of time if actual writing takes time.  And don't get a program that expects the child to be typing through dictation early on.  That ties writing/spelling into the typing too soon.  The physical act of typing needs to be solid first, IMHO, with a child that struggles to write/read.

 

 

[kbutton]

:grouphug: Listen to OneStepAtATime.

 

High stress = it's own kind of learning disability. To get past anxiety, you have to build confidence and well being. Easier said than done, I know! And it's not your fault if she's at this point--you can only do so much without having answers or success in figuring things out. The stress is just there because things aren't working smoothly.

 

You might be surprised at what VT helps. My son's coordination, particularly bilateral coordination with swimming, went through the roof. He had convergence issues vs. tracking, but I think it's all about brain pathways, and working on them improves a lot of things. And messed up eye trouble messes up school. It's a big deal and a lot of work to do VT, so let that take priority. You can do a lot of school orally, and that's really okay right now. The fact that she can do it this way is good--she's able to take in information. Kids this age do struggle sometimes to explain themselves--that could be typical or not (or even personality-based), but I wouldn't worry about it for now. I would make note of it and see if that ability grows over time.

 

Have you had an OT evaluation? A school evaluation will check for things that interfere with the very basics of school. A child can do okay (normal is an astonishingly wide band of scores) and still struggle with a lot of daily stuff. (My kids are right there--we've been doing OT and loving it.) We had to get a private evaluation to see what needed to be addressed.

[Heathermomster]

As I understand things, school psychs do not diagnose learning issues.  They test far enough to assess what the ps is able and willing to do within the confines of the law.    

 

If you haven't done so already, get copies of the school's testing results.  If I were you, I would start saving now for private neuropscyh (np) testing and when the time comes, hand over the results to a professional that can actually provide an IQ test,  provide additional testing, make clinical observations, and write up a report diagnosing the issues.  Call around and speak with the nps, asking questions and ensuring you are comfortable with them.  

 

You should also seriously consider getting an OT evaluation, which takes about an hour and looks at motor planing, vestibular issues, perceptual reasoning, pincer and core strength, handedness, and developmental motor.  Often times, OT and VTs work together to get the best results, so get OT refs from the VT people.

 

Too many change ups with new curriculum may not be fruitful until the VT issues are cleared.  In the mean time, accommodate your DD.  Scribe for her.  Handwriting is no hill to die on especially when you know that underlying vision issues are confounding the problem.  You are presently dealing with that and I applaud you.  

 

Dysgraphia affects not only legibility of handwriting but can affect the processes behind writing and composing sentences and paragraphs.  Dr. Haynes of the Landmark School has presented a one hour webinar addressing the subroutines necessary for paragraph writing.  I don't have time now, but maybe search his name on the boards.  We have spoken about him several times recently.

 

Good luck and welcome to the boards!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

What everyone else said.

 

Also, what level can she actually read at well in her short bursts?

 

I ask because I tried to work on writing with my son before his reading was solid and it was a total waste of time, energy, and money.

[OneStepAtATime]

What everyone else said.

 

Also, what level can she actually read at well in her short bursts?

 

I ask because I tried to work on writing with my son before his reading was solid and it was a total waste of time, energy, and money.

Same here....

[Guest Steph M]

Thank you to all who have responded to my post.  I really, really appreciate that you have taken the time to give me feedback.  I think I have been so overwhelmed with trying to teach her while dealing with her struggles that I am just grasping at anything I can get my hands on and there is just SO MUCH out there now (which actually is a blessing...just hard to get through it all).  I'm just eager to start somewhere so that I can help her make strides.  All of what I have read makes sense to me and I am realizing that I need to slow down. If I take the joy out of learning (and I'm guessing there is little joy left for her right now), then it will all be a bust.  And the stress I'm feeling from all of this is probably pretty evident to her, as well. 

 

I will definitely talk to her pediatrician for local recommendations for a neuropsych and see about having an OT evaluation.  I have been very thankful because part of our VT is covered by our insurance. I'll see what our insurance covers for these evaluations and begin saving up.  

 

Thanks for the encouragement to slow down because I feel this constant pressure of having to get lessons done (well or not) for the online public school we are attending.  I have, however, put in a request to move my DD from a full-time student status to a part-time status (only having her take the required math and language arts courses), so that we have more time to focus on completing her VT therapies.  We don't always get them done on a daily basis and I know that making these a priority will help in the long run. 

 

Thanks for the Dr. Haynes referral.  I will definitely look him up on the discussion boards to find out more.  I will also just make an ongoing list and keep notes.  I like that idea.  My "get it done now" personality was definitely taking over.

 

Regarding her level of reading: she had to complete an online standardized reading test for her online school this month.  Her score never gave a reading level.  Her "NPR" test score was 37.  I don't know what NPR stands for, but I'm guessing it's her percentage.  The test just reads "low average" after the test score and I'm guessing that the reading level for the test was at grade level.  So this suggests to me that she isn't necessarily the worst reader.  She just struggles (hates trying to sound out words and will just stop at them until I say the word for her) and since it's hard for her, she prefers not to read.  Also, she tires easily from reading, so we don't get very far with these lessons.  

 

Thanks, again, to all of you.

[Pen]

If she reads aloud to you, what can she read (if anything) completely fluently and without difficulty in terms of common kids' books?

 

Can she read fluently out loud to you for 10 minutes from a Magic Tree House book, for example?

[Pen]

  Asked to have her tested and her teacher told me that there were many other students who performed much worse than my daughter, so she knew the school wouldn't support having her tested when they'd want to test others first.  I put her into an online public school this year so that I could try to get her tested by the state (too much $$ for us to do privately).

 

 

Has she been tested? If you turn in a "request" (actually a legal demand) in writing for evaluation to be done, the school is legally required to do it regardless of what her teacher said. 

 

 

2)  Obvious learning struggles this year led to us having her tested by school psychologist for learning disabilities and she met with a speech pathologist and eye doctor for additional tests.  I thought my daughter might have dyslexia but test results showed that my daughter didn't have any learning disabilities BUT both the school psych and the speech pathologist did say that something obviously wasn't right.  Suggestions were made that maybe she has ADD (based on their interactions with her during the tests) and some organizational issues in the brain.  Eye doctor confirmed that she needed glasses and we just started Visual Therapy for tracking issues.  

 

Same as what others said, even if school does test, what they are looking for is limited to what they would have to provide an IEP for. She could have dyslexia or other LDs, notwithstanding the school testing.

 

Continued research via google led me to Dianne Craft and my daughter displays most of the signs of processing deficiencies related to writing, reading, and attention mentioned on her site.  Reviews on Dianne Craft on this forum are mixed so I'm unsure if it's worth the financial investment.  I looked into the LiPS program since that seems to be highly recommended but that is really, really expensive in my area if we go to a local provider.  Even the workshop to learn to use the program at home would be too much for us.  I also started reading about the Barton program online and am considering maybe trying the first level to see if it's helpful. 

 

Different programs make for good fits or not depending on the situation. She may or may not need LiPS--based on her areas of difficulty.  Barton might or might not be best fit for her. You might want to look at the typing/reading program www.talkingfingers.com which could be relatively fun for her, and a not so expensive thing to do while getting her situation sorted out.

 

I am really trying to help my daughter in both her reading and writing.  She hates to read and will fight me tooth and nail so she can avoid reading (even though it is getting slightly better).  However, she will read in short spurts if she really has to (it will take me a long time to get her to do so but she will do it).  Longer than five minutes

 

So in my post above about her reading, substitute 5 minutes for 10. What can she read fluently and well out loud for 5 minutes? Not a test result number, but a real life observation from you as her mom.

 

 

 

produces the yawns, head on the table, and the "I'm too tired" comments.  But it's not her reading I'm concerned about at this moment because I think some of her reading struggles are related to her visual tracking issues.  It's her writing that I'm concerned about.  She CANNOT write to save her life.

 

 

Okay, but calm down about that part for now. If you can get out from under stress for both of you with regard to the online school requirements ideas, try to do that.

 

 She can verbally give me every answer for whatever I need (sometimes struggles with explaining herself well and can't always find the correct words in her answers...but she can talk, talk, talk!). However, even if she can tell me the correct answer in one sentence, she cannot turn around and write that same sentence on a piece of paper.  She can copy OK.  It takes her awhile since she has to look at each word individually (and sometimes each letter in the word to spell it correctly), but she cannot form her own sentence and then write it down...even if she just said it out loud a few seconds before.  Tantrums begin anytime we start a lesson that requires some kind of writing beyond one or two-word answers. If she has to write a math story problem as part of her assignment, she just gives up and skips that part of the assignment (or assessment) altogether.  I just purchased Dragon software for my daughter after the speech pathologist suggested it and will see how that works once it's loaded on our computer.  I'm hoping that will help, but I still REALLY want my daughter to be able to write...without the aided use of software.  I'm OK with her using the software if writing tires her out easily.  But I also want her to be able to write via hand when needed, or, at least, for some of her assignments.  I don't want her totally dependent on using speech recognition software.

 

I understand wanting her to be able to write by hand when needed, but it does not have to be this minute, right?   VT is itself a big thing to be working on.

 

I'm writing because I need referrals for any kind of writing and/or reading programs/curriculum or suggested therapies that I can do at home with my daughter to help her improve her writing and reading.

 

My son's key reading program was from www.highnoonbooks.com -- Reading Intervention and Sound Out Chapter Books. It was a fantastic program for him, which I was told about by a reading specialist, ordered the next day and got into as soon as it came!  It was a lot of daily work, but about a year later he was a reader, enjoying things like Percy Jackson series. (This is an oversimplification, but I have posted on other threads more about how we used the program.)  I strongly suggest including it among ones you consider.  

 

Writing as penmanship and other mechanics: Ds also used first the www.talkingfingers.com for typing (which helped typing, reading, and also sound discrimination), and now uses Typing Instructor Platinum for Kids. My ds prints decently when he has to (he used Zaner-Bloser which is a standard program, not specially for LDs) ; cursive was not a good fit for him and I gave it up, though I did get him some italics penmanship books in case he should want to try again.  He is still working on spelling, mostly just in the course of what he wants to write, but to some degree with the program called Spelling Power. I probably should have gotten him the spelling materials that went along with our High Noon reading program, but did not, and at this point ...   well, maybe I will still try them someday or maybe Sequential Spelling.  He will have a 3rd poem published this spring, so I don't figure that spelling is the most critical aspect of life for him.   I know that WTM approach tends to be to get the mechanics going and then eventually the child may have something to say with it, but for my ds it is more the other way around.

 

Writing as Composition:He tended to do best with writing composition as Bravewriter type approach, including a class of theirs (in 4th grade after his reading was fluent).  If you worked at it now, your dd would be at the stage where you are expected to scribe for her called by them "Jot it Down"--kids in my son's class where the youngest was 10 were at that stage. It is fine, really.  

 

 Her teacher from the Virtual Academy suggested Step Up to Writing.  Are any of you familiar with this program and have you seen or heard of success using it?

 

I am familiar with it by name, if it is the Sopris West program I think it is, and have used other material from the same publisher. It is very well regarded, but also expensive. Their reading program Language! might be another option, btw. 

Bravewriter might be better for composition for the moment as an approach to put some fun back into learning/school and decrease stress, which at the moment sounds important. And the sort of class we took might help you both to let it be less stressful with some outside support as well.

 

 Online research has gotten me overwhelmed (as well as reading this forum...SO much info out there and not enough time to read and process it all).

 

With sincere thanks,

Stephanie

 

[Heathermomster]

Going part time with the online school sounds like a great idea. You don't want to turn homeschooling into public school at home. Does that make sense? With homeschooling, you can accommodate and teach in a way that suits her learning style. You can stop and drink tea together or go take a walk. Absolutely, slow things down and feed your child in a way that supports her learning and emotional health. Your DD is very young, and she will not be harmed by slowing down now to get the therapies that are vital to future learning.

[Guest Steph M]

If she reads aloud to you, what can she read (if anything) completely fluently and without difficulty in terms of common kids' books? Can she read fluently out loud to you for 10 minutes from a Magic Tree House book, for example?

 

She doesn't read fluently. She stops a lot within a sentence or will read slowly.  However, she does like to insert emotion into her reading, so I like that a lot!  

 

Actually, I was quite surprised by her this afternoon. She fought me on completing a writing assignment for her Literature and Comp course this afternoon and shut down (we had to use a Venn Diagram to compare two short poems we had read the previous day).  Her tantrum put us both in a tense state.  After sitting next to one another for about ten minutes without a peep between each other (and no effort on her part to begin helping me complete the diagram), I got up and retrieved one of the Gooney Bird Greene books we have from the library.  I started reading a chapter.  Once I was done, I asked if she would read to me the next chapter.  She read four pages!  I couldn't believe it.  It was stop and go and I helped her sound out words here and there, but we did it!  I think that was the longest we had ever read.  I don't know if she did it because she felt bad about the tantrum she threw earlier or because she was enjoying the book.  Either way, I considered it progress, so I wasn't going to ask.  

 

Also, thanks for letting me about about the other programs you have had experience with personally (like highnoonbooks).  I am starting a list, thanks to someone's suggestion, and will begin finding out more and making notes. I'm going to hold off on buying anything for a month, at least, and focus on the VT and seeing if I can get her an OT eval and a visit with a neuropsychologist for some testing.  The school psych did inform me that her tests are limited by what the school district will allow testing for so it did not produce the results or answers I was hoping for.  She knew I was disappointed with the results since they only gave me more questions, instead of help answer the questions I had regarding my dd's struggles in school.  

[kbutton]

 I started reading a chapter.  Once I was done, I asked if she would read to me the next chapter.  She read four pages!  I couldn't believe it.  It was stop and go and I helped her sound out words here and there, but we did it!  I think that was the longest we had ever read.  

 

Some of my son's progress in reading came when we took turns. Sometimes reading a sentence each, a paragraph each, or a page each. He was really motivated by that. Good job!

[City Mouse]

Even if you don't want to and/or can't afford Barton, you can go to the website and give her the free Barton pretest. It will tell you if she has the necessary prerequisite skills to start Barton. When I did that screening, I found out that my the 10yr old son could not actually rhyme words. He had memorized a technique and could give one word that rhymed, but he could not give two words that rhymed with a given word.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, do the free Barton screening, like City Mouse suggested.  You need to do the tutor screening first, but it is pretty easy to do and doesn't take long.  This is not testing content knowledge, just determining if you have the necessary sound discrimination skills, etc. to be able to administer the student screening.  If your child struggles with the student screening then they may need additional help that an OG based system like Barton or Wilson, etc. won't address effectively, at least not until the other issues are dealt with.

 

One thing I will mention, though.  Make absolutely certain that you and your child are well rested, you are both able to concentrate, there will be no interruptions or distractions, etc.  Otherwise it may damage the efficacy of the screening.

 

http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen

[PeterPan]

Did they give you complete results from the tests they DID do?  My guess is there's more info that you could read the tea leaves on.  Did they run some kind of phonological processing test?  They should have, so find out what the scores were.  There should be a RAN/RAS and an overall.  They probably ran some kind of IQ, so ask what those scores were (verbal, performance, adjusted, working memory).  Did they give you ANYTHING with numbers?  Numbers you could post here and let people parse for you.

 

Hate to mention it, but ADHD and vision problems indeed could cause the symptoms you're describing.  Yes, if something is keeping you from getting your VT homework done you need to AXE that thing.  If the cyber school is too much on top of VT, axe the cyber school.  The sooner you get the VT done the better.  My dd had about 6 months after VT where she seemed to reabsorb and go back through everything.

 

You should go ahead and give your dd the Barton pretest, simply because it's free.  The only reason you would need LIPS is for very specific problems.  What did that SLP turn up?  Again, ask for the results!!!  Were they looking at her auditory processing, phonemic awareness, comprehension, what? There must have been something there they saw.  Ask for whatever they can give you.  If you have numbers, you can read the tea leaves on them.

 

Dyslexia and ADHD *used* to be lumped together diagnostically as "minimal brain dysfunction," a terrible title, eh? In other words, it's no shock that 60% of dyslexics get an ADHD label and a lot of ADHD kids have oddities with their reading.  But you can have ADHD and *not* be officially dyslexic.  For that they're going to expect a low phonological processing score and a low RAN/RAS.  What she *might* have is very low processing speed and very low working memory.  And if you can tease that from the tests they ran, you won't necessarily have to blow your every last dime on more evals.  I'm all in favor of evals, I'm just saying they *may* have run what you need if you beg for the test results.  Just see where begging gets you.  Ask for breakdowns, copies of the diagnostics, whatever. You're supposed to be an equal party at the table.  

 

The VT may bring in some work on working memory.  You can also work on it yourself.  We've got threads on IM (interactive metronome) and ways to do hack/free versions at home.  Given how much testing it sounds like they did, you might see if you can get the data from that, save on having to do more evals, and use that savings to get some more therapies.

 

As for the Dianne Cook stuff, it's probably fine.  It's stuff you might have found on your own or might already be doing.  For some people it's new and lightning bolts.  It's not bad stuff and it's not the only stuff.  How much will it cost you?  $30 or $300? If it's in the $30 and you want to try it, I'm guessing you'll find enough ideas in there for it to have been useful.  :)