Jump to content

Menu

Wilson Hill vs Derek Owens Geometry (and Physics) vs Duke Tip Geometry


Recommended Posts

I've read conflicting information about the geometry classes. Some posts give the impression that parents are required to grade the proofs. When I read the website, that doesn't seem to be the case. Would anyone care to share experiences? I'm trying to decide between Derek Owens (Jacobs 3rd edition) and Duke Tip Geometry (Jurgensen).

 

My daughter plans to take physics through Derek Owens in the fall. The DO geometry and physics combo seems to be popular. I would be grateful to hear thoughts and experiences from those who have used both.

 

Thanks!

 

ETA: I've added Wilson Hill to the title since I'm now considering it as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Jurgensen and Jacobs texts are very different. It's worth taking a look at both before deciding. When I did, I knew right away that we'd prefer Jurgensen.

 

My boys used DO for Alg 1 and it worked out wonderfully for all of us. If I'd liked the Jacobs text, we'd have had no reservations at all about continuing with DO for geometry.

 

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I looked at both of those Geometry programs, DO & TIP, before selected Wilson Hill Academy similar to Yvonne.  I will most likely take DO Physics next Fall.  However I found very mixed review on his geometry course with some forum families finding it confusing.  Plus I also prefer Jurgensen over Jacobs.  TIP looked like too little interaction or help from the teacher.  

 

WHA has been great with two 90 minutes 'live' class sessions per week.  The students are encouraged to ask questions.  The teacher, Leslie Smith, devotes 30 minutes each session going over the homework along with any questions the students may have.  She also grades the proofs as well as all tests and quizzes.  We will be continuing with WHA for Algebra 2 in the Fall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you looking for an online class or just to have help with grading & such? (Totally doing  :bigear: since my dd#1 is planning on doing DO's physics next year. I think she's going to use the Duke TIP materials, but all I have so far are the Jurgensen book & solutions guide.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you looking for an online class or just to have help with grading & such? (Totally doing  :bigear: since my dd#1 is planning on doing DO's physics next year. I think she's going to use the Duke TIP materials, but all I have so far are the Jurgensen book & solutions guide.)

 

Oh, I'm just doing whatever you decide....  :lol:

 

I'm leaning toward using the Duke TIP materials because I like Jurgensen better. I am also a little hesitant to enroll in two DO classes. What if the set-up isn't a good fit?

 

I think I'm looking for an online class that includes all grading, or I would rather just do it all myself. I like the support materials with the TIP program and that it has assignments already broken down. It's my understanding there are some computer graded components with TIP, but she won't have a teacher at all. Is that correct, or am I confused?

 

Another plus of just using the TIP program is going at her own pace.

 

Did you buy the solutions guide from the publisher?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We used Derek Owens Geometry last year.

 

Derek grades the proofs on his quizzes (which he calls "homework" but are really quizzes) and on his tests.  He does not grade proofs that are part of the practice problems (which I call homework).

 

There is a disconnect between the practice problems and the graded work in the geometry class.  I filled it by giving problems (especially proofs) from the Jacobs 2nd edition text.  And for those problems, I was doing the teaching/evaluating/grading.

 

I love Jacobs Algebra and I love Derek Owens, but I do not like Jacobs Geometry 3rd edition and I don't recommend DO's geometry class.  (I highly recommend his other classes.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I'm just doing whatever you decide....  :lol:

 

Oh my. What a terrible idea.  :scared: I don't know what in the world I'm doing.  :blush:  My oldest is my guinea pig.

 

I PM'd you with some info from another boardie whose son is using the Duke TIP stuff now. 

No teacher. Yes, some computer graded components, but you'd have to check some proofs each chapter & their daily work.

 

I bought the SG off Amazon when a (relatively) cheap copy came up. (I was shooting for something less than what I'd pay if I bought it from Seton. That was the cheapest I found it anywhere new.) 

 

I'm not interested in another online class right now, both because of $$ and because she'll already have three classes on the computer (Spanish II, DO's Physics, and WTM's Intro to Rhetoric). She can do the Duke TIP computer stuff on our not-connected-to-the-internet computer & only some of the chapter's work is on the computer.

 

However, she LOVES having online classmates to interact with and she does really well for outside teachers so far, which is what I'm counting on for writing! However, she likes math, so I'm hoping it'll work out. (And I have NO idea yet what to use for Alg II. Will cross that bridge when I come to it.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How many students are in the Wilson Hill class? What time of day are the classes offered? Do you get a choice of class days/times?

 

Hope you don't mind all the questions!

 

Their Geometry class meets at two different days/times. We picked M/W 9:30-11AM PST (for us).  I don't recall the T/TH time.  But I'm pretty sure it was later.

 

I also don't have a head count on virtual students.  But for this class I think its somewhere in the ballpark of ~20-25 students.  The live interaction between students and teacher is great.  This being our first 'live' class I wasn't sure about it for a number of reasons including the cost.  But I am so glad we went this route now.  For all that they provide it is *really* worth it for us.  

 

I'm hoping DO asynchronous Physics will still be good even without the classroom interaction.  If WHA had a similar class I would probably take it instead.  Though I do see the value in asynchronous when you can really flex your schedule.  Since ds13 will also be attending his first in person classes at our local CC in the Fall it will probably be nice to have that flexibility as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Derek...thank you for posting about the Wilson Hill geometry course. I had not heard of this before, and it looks like a perfect fit for my younger son. He needs the teacher interaction. :-)

 

You're welcome, Jetta.  It's exciting to see your new Physics class as well.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In our experience, my oldest used Derek Owens for Geometry and Alg. 2. and is planning on taking Pre-Cal next year.   I have not had to do anything, he includes the student notebook with questions, lectures and he grades everything.  My son loves it due to the fact he can go at his own pace and can do it on his own.  I know DO has graded my son's work in a timely manner and is suppose to be there for questions if anyone has them.  However, after two years my son hasn't sent him one question!  :-/  Anyway, my husband was a math major and has been very impressed with my son's advances and completeness of the program...just our experience.  Not sure how it would work for a child who needs more one on one teaching though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that most of the students who had no problems with DO classes also didn't seem to ask many questions or need much help.  Maybe if a student just 'gets it' and does not need much assistance it could be fine?  I really do like DOs lecture style which I have listened to on Youtube.  But I can't help but wonder if a student needs more help how much is actually available in a timely fashion.  It is just something to consider.

 

We have found that having an actual live teacher to interact with during class to be a significant benefit at WHA.  Of course the asynchronous nature of a class has benefits as well.  I'm weighing these pros/cons as we prepare for physics next Fall.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that most of the students who had no problems with DO classes also didn't seem to ask many questions or need much help.  Maybe if a student just 'gets it' and does not need much assistance it could be fine?  I really do like DOs lecture style which I have listened to on Youtube.  But I can't help but wonder if a student needs more help how much is actually available in a timely fashion.  It is just something to consider.

 

DS had questions and emailed Derek. Sometimes they were related to the material and sometimes they were "what if" questions on alternate/ related scenarios or "what else" questions on how much deeper the concept could go or fit with some of the odd or unusual things DS was thinking in his head. The turnaround time was usually within 3-4 days (sometimes sooner). There might have been one or two instances where it took a little longer but that might have also been because Derek was busy grading/ teaching the normal pace students (DS took the course at a slower pace).

 

HTH!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it interesting that most of the students who had no problems with DO classes also didn't seem to ask many questions or need much help.  Maybe if a student just 'gets it' and does not need much assistance it could be fine?  I really do like DOs lecture style which I have listened to on Youtube.  But I can't help but wonder if a student needs more help how much is actually available in a timely fashion.  It is just something to consider.

 

We have found that having an actual live teacher to interact with during class to be a significant benefit at WHA.  Of course the asynchronous nature of a class has benefits as well.  I'm weighing these pros/cons as we prepare for physics next Fall.  

 

I think this is a good observation. My DD 14 is a decent math student. She is a young ninth grader, and has completed Algebra and Geometry, but has not started Algebra 2. The Physics course is mainly a math course. She watches the videos and works the homework problems, but she has worked with my DH (who is a high school math teacher) about twice a week to go over things that are tricky for her. The course is a regular high school physics course (the kind we used to take in 12th grade). It is not a conceptual physics, as many ninth grade courses are. It is true that you only need algebra, and some very basic trig (which he teaches in the course), but she has found the math challenging. I think if she took this course as a junior or senior it would be easier simply because she would have had much more practice with algebra and trig. 

 

I suppose she could be more proactive and email DO to ask the sorts of questions my DH can answer. But, I think she often isn't quite sure what to ask? Perhaps this is a maturity issue, or a personality issue, but I don't think this course would work for her without the face to face interaction with DH. I certainly cannot answer the questions (at least not without a considerable time commitment on my part). DD is a smart kid, but she is dyslexic and not particularly interested in school work.

 

On the other hand, we really love the self-paced nature of the course. DD works at a much slower pace than is written on the syllabus. This is true for almost all her coursework. So, while she might benefit from a live course (like WHA) she needs a self-paced course. 

 

My impression is that it is a rigorous 9th grade course, and could easily be used for an upper level high school course for students who are not planning to take a calc based physics course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She watches the videos and works the homework problems, but she has worked with my DH (who is a high school math teacher) about twice a week to go over things that are tricky for her. The course is a regular high school physics course (the kind we used to take in 12th grade). 

 

On the other hand, we really love the self-paced nature of the course.

 

I like this take on DO's course. When dd#1 takes this next year, either my DH or I plan on being available to answer any questions that come up & provide further explanations (and extend the application of the problems), if necessary. DH was really excited to see the workbooks arrive & felt really good about the content -- since he came from a small school and didn't see any physics until college. I  :001_tt1: self-paced courses - both for the ability to slow down or speed up. It is one of the great things about homeschooling!

 

I'm excited for the reinforcement of the algebra as I want to make sure it stays fresh in her head as she does Geometry next year. I also plan on assigning the algebra review sections in the Jurgensen book. 

 

Totally off-topic, but does anyone know if DO will sell / rent a dvd for physics vs. the online video access?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DO is more expensive than community college classes here. I have looked at it for my son in a few years and decided that I would rather pay for CC. I am not against paying for online classes, but I think DO is over priced to the extreme.

 

I can't speak for DO since I haven't taken any of his classes yet.  But I know I was thinking the same thing before signing up for our first WHA Geometry class this Fall.  Now in hindsight I think it was one of the best decisions we've made.  Of course WHA offers two 90 minute 'live' classes per week with great teacher/student interaction.  In addition the teacher grades all quizzes, tests and homework proofs.  For all that they do it has been money well spent, worth every penny.  There is no equivalent available at our local CC.

 

DO classes seem to be about the same price roughly as WHA, though they do not offer the live classroom interaction part.  Nor is there immediate feedback for the students' questions because of it.  Despite this it seems as though there are 'many' families who are very happy with his courses.  So I guess it boils down to what one is really looking for.  DO has taught, and I believe still does, at a well known private prep school where prices are much higher per class than his online courses.  And he uses the same curriculum. As a master instructor there is definitely something of value to be had there.  Whether worth it or not is an individual call for sure.  

 

Does your CC provide the full list of courses available through DO and other online vendors at the same level of quality?  That can be more difficult to find.  We plan to begin CC next Fall with ds13.  But we will also continue high quality online courses as well in key areas of math and science.  CCs can be limited in both quality and availability of certain courses.  For us we'll have to strike a good balance of both depending on these and other factors.  Sometimes a great teacher can be life changing in a young student's education.  I have had some of those experiences from my high school years way back in the stone ages.  That is something harder to place a monetary value on though obviously cost must be considered.  I guess the larger question is what is the best bang for the buck without sacrificing excellent quality?  The great news for homeschoolers is that we have more choices than ever nowadays.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How many students are in the Wilson Hill class? What time of day are the classes offered? Do you get a choice of class days/times?

 

Hope you don't mind all the questions!

Typical class sizes are 15-20, though some more popular ones exceed that.  Classes are slotted into one of six 90-minute slots beginning at 8:00am Eastern.  For classes like Geometry where there are several sections, we try to make them accessible to students on both coasts (i.e. at least one early for the east coast and at least one late for the west).  You can find a preliminary schedule on our website, www.wilsonhillacademy.com - there are a few changes that are represented on our registration site which will be open to new registrants on February 9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm considering Wilson Hill again...

 

It's my understanding a special tablet and pen are needed that can be found for around $100. How are these used during the class? It sounds like they would make the classes more interactive and interesting.

Are the students seen during class or is just text seen?

I'm presuming the students can see the teacher, is that correct?

I'm confused about how much grading the parents do. I've seen various levels mentioned....

The solutions manual has been mentioned in other threads. Is this needed because the parents are grading so much?

 

Do the classes fill quickly?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm considering Wilson Hill again...

 

It's my understanding a special tablet and pen are needed that can be found for around $100. How are these used during the class? It sounds like they would make the classes more interactive and interesting.

Are the students seen during class or is just text seen?

I'm presuming the students can see the teacher, is that correct?

I'm confused about how much grading the parents do. I've seen various levels mentioned....

The solutions manual has been mentioned in other threads. Is this needed because the parents are grading so much?

 

Do the classes fill quickly?

 

I'll give your questions a shot.  Hopefully you'll hear from others as well as it's always good to get more than one perspective.

 

Students see the teacher, a white board and chat box area where they all interact.  They also interact via voice with their microphones.  In addition they use the electronic pens and pads (tablets) to write on.

 

I've already commented on the grading in the other thread.  So I won't go into too much more detail.  But the solutions manual is available to review homework problems if a student wants to check their work.  Our son has always checked his own homework, at least since 6th grade.  He did the same thing with AoPS and its solution manual.  So this has not been a concern of ours.  However I know some parents are not as comfortable trusting their child with checking their own work.  In the case of WHA it's so obvious how they are doing with the regular quizzes and tests that their would be no benefit to a student in fudging on their homework.  It would be evident right away.

 

I'm not sure how fast the classes fill.  But I didn't want to take any chances in getting the right times and recommended teachers.  All course times are displayed in EST.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've signed up for several Wilson Hill classes are very excited.  Our problem we have run into is finding the right times that match our schedule.    Hopefully as they grow, they will offer more times.    I know that one of the incoming math teachers is awesome as we currently have him.  So fun and a great teacher.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've signed up for several Wilson Hill classes are very excited.  Our problem we have run into is finding the right times that match our schedule.  We are on the East coast and my kids play sports in the afternoons so from 3 pm on EST, my oldest two are unavailable so that limited us to certain classes.  Hopefully as they grow, they will offer more times.  We really wanted to do the advanced chemistry but couldn't do the time slot they offered in the afternoon.  I know that one of the incoming math teachers is awesome as we currently have him.  So fun and a great teacher.  

 

Hi Bugabiga, 

 

I know what you mean about getting the right scheduled classes.  This is especially the case for us as we balance more outsourced classes including starting CC.  

Just curious which math teacher you recommend?  Which courses will he be teaching at WHA?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr. Reini is teacher # 4.  That is my 99.9% guess.  He's teaching Algebra 2.  Last year when I searched teachers out I did a search for him online when they posted his name b/c I couldn't find any reviews at all and he came up on the community college reviews and he got great reviews there and we can attest now that we have had him for pre-Algebra.  He's humorous, entertaining and yet teaching what they need to know with a great skill.  My daughter doesn't love math but loves the class because of him.  Now if I could get her to just correct her errors that would be great! But she gets the concepts.  We have done CC for 3 years and it has really helped with my kids writing for sure.  This is our last year of it, but they are finishing Challenge 1 and we are ready to just do classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been in touch with a teacher from Wilson Hill Academy who has graciously offered her assistance in answering my questions. The quick, helpful responses have made a positive impression.

 

If anyone else is considering the classes, be aware that at least one or two classes have already filled. If there is a certain day/time/teacher you are hoping to have, you might want to act quickly. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Leslie Smith, my son's current Geometry teacher, is very responsive as well.  I typically have a laundry list of questions before signing up for anything.  She patiently worked with me in answering all of those questions along with the school founders.  Overall, I appreciate their dedication, skill and commitment to excellence in education as whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...