Moxie Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Ok, not really. My question is, why all the mystery? God speaks to people all through the OT, then Jesus is talking to people in the NT, then 2000 years of radio silence?? Why would God not speak up once in awhile? Why is God ok with all the confusion about the Bible and religion? Why not just speak up and say "This group over here is the right one"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well, plenty of Pentecostal (and perhaps other??) churches believe God speaks directly to people all the time. Ever been to a Pentecostal church? Quite often someone will stand up in the middle of the music (or other times) and speak out a message directly from God--something they're getting from him pretty much word-for-word right at that moment. It's called the gift of prophecy and is talked about in the new testament. Don't know why those things are not written down and sent off to everyone like the scriptures we have collected in the bible, but there are many thousands of people who believe God speaks directly to us all the time. It's a matter of whether or not one believes that what is being spoken is real or not. If you've never heard of this before you may think, "Hogwash!" But there are a boatload of Christians who absolutely believe God speaks directly to people all the time. Also, note that when those prophets and Jesus spoke in their day many (sometimes most) of their contemporaries didn't believe a word of it and rejected them and their messages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 The canon of scripture is closed. God's word is complete. It is up to us to be the body of Christ. This is not an age of silence, the spirit of God speaks through believers and the Bible itself. It was prophesied. This is all in his plan. Mark 4:1-20 covers the confusion. http://biblehub.com/kjv/mark/4.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Mark 4:1-20 covers the confusion. http://biblehub.com/kjv/mark/4.htm No it doesn't. It's man's desire for an answer superimposed onto parables. It does not "cover the confusion" at all. Although I prefer the parables to the parts people take as history or science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well, I believe God's primary revelation of his character and purpose was through Jesus. I don't think orthodox believers expect that sort of direct revelation again on earth, at least until the end. But I also believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to continue leading people into the truth and transforming the willing into better representatives of God's love. I'm not talking about pentecostal things, either, but growth and learning. Most believers see this, at least post new testament, as personal only. Others may feel it is also more corporate--as in progressive revelation. Finally, the church was supposed to continue the testimony...we've just done a bang up/human job the opposite much, much too often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIE! Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Some of us do believe He did that very thing, and that there are prophets on earth now, just like there used to be. Here is what I believe about that topic. And no, I'm not trying to hijack the thread, convert anyone, or start a debate. Just pointing out that not all Christians believe that God is okay with all the confusion and has left us without guides like in times past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Well, plenty of Pentecostal (and perhaps other??) churches believe God speaks directly to people all the time. Ever been to a Pentecostal church? Quite often someone will stand up in the middle of the music (or other times) and speak out a message directly from God--something they're getting from him pretty much word-for-word right at that moment. It's called the gift of prophecy and is talked about in the new testament. Don't know why those things are not written down and sent off to everyone like the scriptures we have collected in the bible, but there are many thousands of people who believe God speaks directly to us all the time. It's a matter of whether or not one believes that what is being spoken is real or not. If you've never heard of this before you may think, "Hogwash!" But there are a boatload of Christians who absolutely believe God speaks directly to people all the time. Also, note that when those prophets and Jesus spoke in their day many (sometimes most) of their contemporaries didn't believe a word of it and rejected them and their messages. I guess I'm not talking about God speaking to one person. I wonder why there isn't a loud voice from the sky "I'm God. I'm real. Get along!". Really childish idea, I know!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Not childish at all. God is a vast, incomprehensible person and it's illogical to think we could fully comprehend him or why he does what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I guess I'm not talking about God speaking to one person. I wonder why there isn't a loud voice from the sky "I'm God. I'm real. Get along!". Really childish idea, I know!! Got it! And I agree! I do happen to believe that when the Holy Spirit was given to us all we didn't have to rely on prophets to tell us things anymore. We now had a direct line to God without a prophet in the middle But all that aside, I absolutely wish he'd just appear in the sky and say what's what. I can totally agree with you on that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondeviolin Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I do believe God speaks to a prophet today just like He did in times of old. And that prophet directs His church on earth. Here's what's been said recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I guess I'm not talking about God speaking to one person. I wonder why there isn't a loud voice from the sky "I'm God. I'm real. Get along!". Really childish idea, I know!! I think you're wondering why things you've been raised to believe are true are harder and harder to accept. Why should something that's real be so logically evasive, after all, right? I don't think that's childish, but a natural part of human curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 If you don't limit yourself to the Christian God...there are lots of people who believe that God speaks in many ways to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I do believe God is still is at work and speaks/leads us today -- through His Church. He came to earth to start a church, did so, has kept and keeps it going (it never became apostate, how could it?), and it is His earthly presence as it is, after all, called His Body. It's what He speaks through -- we do hear His voice today.This is coming from a pre-denominational perspective; believing that the original church still exists today, in an unbroken line from the time of Pentecost, even though some groups have, yes, split off into what has become known as denominations. With that as the background of where I'm coming from, I "hear" God through the prayers we pray at church, through the holy writings that have been handed down throughout time, through learning about the lives of the saints and martyrs, through the liturgical and seasonal cycles, through the songs we sing, through the homilies we hear, through the icons we see and the Bible we read, through the communion we have with the believers we're worshiping with even if we're very, very unlike each other in every day life -- through it all, really. It's all unified, everything, teaching the same thing, throughout both time and space -- nothing new added, nothing taken away, the same from the beginning. This unbroken unity that speaks to me and it's very loud and clear and even tangible -- if this church is still united like this after 2000 years, having developed its practices and worship in different locations throughout times, that's pretty amazing (I'd say miraculous) and that speaks to me both intellectually and spiritually. It allows me to "cleave unto Him for the hope of my salvation" (according to one of our pre-communion prayers). Speaking from my experience; not speaking to anyone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Moxie, it's the million dollar question. As a more mainline Christian who doesn't really hold the party line on a lot of things, I don't believe there's any specific revelations or people speaking for God in our time. I believe we know about God through the teachings of Jesus and through the wonder of creation, if that makes sense. Completely agree that it would be much easier if there were skywriting or announcements over the loudspeaker. But where's the fun in that?!? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I've always wondered why an all powerful God would leave us such a poor excuse for an instruction manual. And no, I don't buy any of the blather about discernment. When I want my kids to know and understand something I speak to them as clearly as possible. Otherwise I'm being rather cruel to expect them to grasp what I'm trying to teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Just my weird take. I think God figures "Geesh, I spent thousands of years talking to the Israelites. I sent Jesus for everyone. I think I've been obvious. Maybe that frustrating free will means they need to muck about a bit. I only gave those first folks one stinking rule and they couldn't even follow that!" At least that's what I would be thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasperstone Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I guess I'm not talking about God speaking to one person. I wonder why there isn't a loud voice from the sky "I'm God. I'm real. Get along!". Really childish idea, I know!! But with today's technology, how would we *know* it was really God, and not a hologram or something? Lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I guess I'm not talking about God speaking to one person. I wonder why there isn't a loud voice from the sky "I'm God. I'm real. Get along!". Really childish idea, I know!! I think He doesn't reveal Himself like that because we would then be held accountable for that knowledge. The greater knowledge we have, the greater the condemnation we receive if we sin against that knowledge. Because He loves us, He only gives us the knowledge that we are ready for. 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it. 19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression? 20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work. Alma 32:17-20 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng As to your first question, God has always spoken to and through prophets, and He still does today. PIE! and blondeviolin provided some great links on that topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Ok, not really. My question is, why all the mystery? God speaks to people all through the OT, then Jesus is talking to people in the NT, then 2000 years of radio silence?? Why would God not speak up once in awhile? Why is God ok with all the confusion about the Bible and religion? Why not just speak up and say "This group over here is the right one"?? God spoke to select people through the OT not "people" in general. Those select people were the exceptions; not the norm. He spoke and visited Adam and Eve in the Garden. However, once they became defiled by sin, He could no longer commune with them, and we no longer have any record of Him speaking with them. He does, however, speak to Cain. He spoke through the Prophets and Abraham. In all, there are about 25 people God spoke directly to, through either angles, dreams, or a burning bush. If you consider He only spoke to about 25 people in all of the OT times, we're not speaking about a great number of instances. Regarding the NT, since Jesus was walking among the people, as a teacher, yes, He spoke to a great many people. However, after His death, resurrection, and ascension, He only spoke to a very few: Paul and the original apostles. The Bible is God's story, so of course we're going to read about those encounters with God. Do I believe God still speaks to a select few to get His goals accomplished? Yes, but again, it's only to a select few, and I believe He uses the same methods today as then: dreams, angels or visions (not sure about burning bushes though :-). In fact, if you research it, you will find hundreds of claims of Muslims in the Middle East being converted to Christianity right now, today, through their dreams of Jesus Christ. So God is still speaking. I think many people have a misconception of God's so-called "still, small voice", "listening" for God, and being "led" by the Spirit. The verses used to support such ideas are taken out of context. If you read the chapters of those verses that some people claim teach that God talks to all of us, all the time, you will find that is not the actual meaning or claim those verses are making. There is a fascinating, in-depth, 3 part newsletter that will help clear up this misconception very well. It's called "Does God Whisper" and you can find it at Stand to Reason under their Solid Ground newsletter publications. If you type into the search field "Does God Whisper", it will bring up all three parts. I would heartily recommend it to anyone who wants to truly understand how God speaks to man. Here are the links to access those articles. You will need to click on the yellow-orange highlighted publication date at the bottom to access it because they are PDFs: Does God Whisper, Part 1 Does God Whisper, Part 2 Does God Whisper, Part 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You probably don't want my explanation. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Off the top of my head . . . My understanding is that the NT canon was confined to writings from people who were eyewitnesses or who had direct ties to eyewitnesses of Jesus. As such, the NT is limited by time and space to a fairly finite group of people at a particular point in time. There were lots of people who wrote about Jesus and about God who had no such connection to eyewitnesses. Their writings are either considered to be awesome stuff the church values even though they are not in the Bible or, if those writings are inconsistent with the NT canon, they are considered by the mainstream church to be incorrect or invalid. I don't really have time today to debate the validity of this (student meetings all day), just throwing this out there to answer the question quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 God spoke to select people through the OT not "people" in general. Those select people were the exceptions; not the norm. He spoke and visited Adam and Eve in the Garden. However, once they became defiled by sin, He could no longer commune with them, and we no longer have any record of Him speaking with them. He does, however, speak to Cain. He spoke through the Prophets and Abraham. In all, there are about 25 people God spoke directly to, through either angles, dreams, or a burning bush. If you consider He only spoke to about 25 people in all of the OT times, we're not speaking about a great number of instances. If God couldn't commune with Adam and Eve because they were defiled with sin, how could he commune with Moses (with whom he did commune face to face [Exodus 33:11] or face to back side [Exodus 33:20-23], depending on which account you believe is true)? How could he commune with Satan (entire book of Job)? I don't mean to speak for Moxie, but in general, when one starts to doubt these claims, the details of the answers take on much greater importance. This answer doesn't make sense logically, even if it does serve to comfort people. The Bible is God's story, so of course we're going to read about those encounters with God. Do I believe God still speaks to a select few to get His goals accomplished? Yes, but again, it's only to a select few, and I believe He uses the same methods today as then: dreams, angels or visions (not sure about burning bushes though :-). In fact, if you research it, you will find hundreds of claims of Muslims in the Middle East being converted to Christianity right now, today, through their dreams of Jesus Christ. So God is still speaking. Does conversions of Christians to Islam in the West mean Allah is speaking, through dreams and through various signs and symbols in the world? I think many people have a misconception of God's so-called "still, small voice", "listening" for God, and being "led" by the Spirit. The verses used to support such ideas are taken out of context. If you read the chapters of those verses that some people claim teach that God talks to all of us, all the time, you will find that is not the actual meaning or claim those verses are making. Jesus tells the believer to ask, and s/he will be answered, to seek and they will find the answers they're looking for (Matthew 7:7-12). If he speaks audibly, people assume a neurological misfiring. If he speaks through signs and symbols, then why hide them from those who seek the most earnestly? The ones who have the most to lose? If he speaks through signs and symbols, why make it so confusing that people misunderstand his voice for the voice of Allah, or a goddess of the earth, or one's own, personal self-talk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I've always wondered why an all powerful God would leave us such a poor excuse for an instruction manual. Agreed! It's why I don't believe that the Bible is the sole foundation of the Christian faith. It can't be -- there are too many different ways to read into what it may (or may not) be saying. Someone has to interpret (for me, that's the early Church; for others, it's themselves or other scholars they trust or something else altogether). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You probably don't want my explanation. LOL OK, I'll be the atheist who goes there. Because there is no god. Or, in a more nuanced way, there is no anthropomorphic god who is particularly interested in what our species of hominids thinks about him. There are lots of other takes on what god might be that would be consistent with radio silence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I know there is a God. All things denote there is a Supreme Creator. His creations are numberless, yet we are His greatest creation; we are His children. It is His work and glory to bring about our immortality and eternal life. He loves us with a perfect love. And God isn't silent today. He has appeared in person and restored His gospel in its fullness. He speaks through prophets today, just has He has always done. His work is not finished, the end has not come yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 OK, I'll be the atheist who goes there. Because there is no god. Or, in a more nuanced way, there is no anthropomorphic god who is particularly interested in what our species of hominids thinks about him. There are lots of other takes on what god might be that would be consistent with radio silence. I would say something along the lines of I have no reason to believe there is a god. it is interesting to entertain the idea of what it would be like if there really was a god that talked to us regularly. I wonder if that would be good or bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Honest answer from me? I think there are still people who wouldn't follow what God said if he blasted it out loud and clear from the sky. Maybe they've predetermined there is no God, or he doesn't speak that way, or they just plain don't want to accept him as their authority, or a hundred other reasons. So why bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Honest answer from me? I think there are still people who wouldn't follow what God said if he blasted it out loud and clear from the sky. Maybe they've predetermined there is no God, or he doesn't speak that way, or they just plain don't want to accept him as their authority, or a hundred other reasons. So why bother? Although you say that like some people know there is a god, but refuse to acknowledge the fact just cuz. I wonder how many people out there actually think like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Answer for OP will depend upon which religion she trusts for accuracy. In this thread I have read much which conveys no truth to me. My church's reply would not be accepted by many here, for that matter. The question is a very good one to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Although you say that like some people know there is a god, but refuse to acknowledge the fact just cuz. I wonder how many people out there actually think like that. I'm not sure I understand your first sentence. To clarify, I know several people who would agree with this: "I believe there is a god, but I'm not going to worship him/it/whatever." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I'm not sure I understand your first sentence. To clarify, I know several people who would agree with this: "I believe there is a god, but I'm not going to worship him/it/whatever." Huh...really? I have never encountered that. I wonder what makes them believe there is a god. I think it's logical enough to refuse to worship someone/thing, but where do they get the strong feeling there is actually a god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 It's two people who are in their twenties-- I am pretty sure they look around at creation and think it isn't accidental. They have expressed being ok with a creator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Even just looking at what's within this thread, I can't help thinking that if there is a God, and he does speak to each of us, he'd better speak up because we're all hearing wildly different things. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 To further compound the issue, I guess, when Christians say, "God does speak, though Christians and prophets and my church," they don't account for other religions. Does God speak through those religions/followers, too? And what of the contradictory information that is often quoted as being "from God"? I mean, all these people and all these various religions claim that God has spoken and told them they are right, but that's not possible. So to my mind, the answers like, "Well, God speaks to a prophet in our church all the time" doesn't really hold water for me. Why is that guy any more right than anyone else who claims to have heard from God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 And God isn't silent today. He has appeared in person and restored His gospel in its fullness. He speaks through prophets today, just has He has always done. His work is not finished, the end has not come yet. How do you suppose he does that? When people say they hear his voice, we assume this isn't an auditory voice. We know auditory voices are symptoms of neurological glitches that result in auditory hallucinations. We can explain this phenomenon without invoking anything supernatural or divine. When people assume an event is orchestrated to convey a particular message, one could reasonably conclude the event was a product of previous events (cause and effect in a long, long line of such events), arguably more reasonably so. If one assumes their emotions respond to the voice of God, what does that mean about experiences that are not God-oriented but elicit the same response? But more confusingly, converts to non-christian religions attribute the very same methods and yet come away with quite different consequences. How would an unbiased, third party observer know how to determine which person really does hear God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 To further compound the issue, I guess, when Christians say, "God does speak, though Christians and prophets and my church," they don't account for other religions. Does God speak through those religions/followers, too? And what of the contradictory information that is often quoted as being "from God"? I mean, all these people and all these various religions claim that God has spoken and told them they are right, but that's not possible. So to my mind, the answers like, "Well, God speaks to a prophet in our church all the time" doesn't really hold water for me. Why is that guy any more right than anyone else who claims to have heard from God? I wonder about that too. Each religion tends to think it's the right one. Some go so far as to claim anyone who won't accept their religion is damned. How can that be? There are many varieties of religions. Even if you look at the major religions in the world they have their subgroups and some of them don't agree at all with the other subgroups to the extent they say nasty things about them. If no god speaks to anyone, how can they be sure they've got the right belief? And then I wonder why when we talk about older religious beliefs we refer to them as myths. Those beliefs were quite real for those people. Their stories/explanations were about as fantastic as the stories told now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Even just looking at what's within this thread, I can't help thinking that if there is a God, and he does speak to each of us, he'd better speak up because we're all hearing wildly different things. ;) This is actually what led us to Orthodoxy. Instead of us individually hearing from God and determining what he says/means (through which we saw what you mentioned above -- wildly different and even opposing practices and beliefs), we instead look to the Church to see what she has determined/taught on these things from the beginning -- unchanging -- and then we choose to either be a part of it, or not. We can't so much go in and say, "Well, I don't believe that the sacrament of confession is biblical, so it's not a part of our Orthodoxy even if it's part of yours" or "Well, you can celebrate those 12 feasts, but we're going do develop the ones we want to commemorate over here." It's fine if someone doesn't want to be a part, but rather than us defining the faith in a way that we feel comfortable/convicted, we look at the faith that exists and decide if we want to be a part of it. It a wee bit different of an approach I think. It's probably similar to one that you experienced as a Catholic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Why not just speak up and say "This group over here is the right one"?? If there is a god, maybe he doesn't care about the groups. Maybe the groups are just a human invention and god is down with everyone. That's the kind of god I'd admire. I don't see why it should matter if he supposedly created everyone and everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 It's two people who are in their twenties-- I am pretty sure they look around at creation and think it isn't accidental. They have expressed being ok with a creator. Ah ok so they think there was possibly a creator, but not a ruler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I don't know about the ruler. Good question. My guess (just a guess) is that their idea is, if there is a ruler, they don't want to be ruled, and think there must be buy in on their part--or maybe better, that they think they have a choice or have to allow god to rule them. I can't ask one of the people, but I could ask the other, if you want me to! (I don't feel completely comfy speaking for them--not any more than what my understanding is, anyway!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I think the answer is, God said, "I will give these creatures superior minds and learning ability. In that way, they will be able to solve a multitude of problems, rather than pointlessly babble prayers to me." Poof! No need to be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 If there is a god, maybe he doesn't care about the groups. Maybe the groups are just a human invention and god is down with everyone. That's the kind of god I'd admire. I don't see why it should matter if he supposedly created everyone and everything. I love the line, "God is down with everyone." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I don't know about the ruler. Good question. My guess (just a guess) is that their idea is, if there is a ruler, they don't want to be ruled, and think there must be buy in on their part--or maybe better, that they think they have a choice or have to allow god to rule them. I can't ask one of the people, but I could ask the other, if you want me to! (I don't feel completely comfy speaking for them--not any more than what my understanding is, anyway!) Another possibility is that if there is a ruler, he's not doing a very good job of it. That gets to the whole theodicy question. There are innocents suffering so if there's a god, he's either not benevolent or not omnipotent. In either case, what's the point in worshipping a god that doesn't care about us or can't protect us? That's a very short summation of a subject that people haven written whole libraries about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Huh...really? I have never encountered that. I wonder what makes them believe there is a god. I think it's logical enough to refuse to worship someone/thing, but where do they get the strong feeling there is actually a god. There certainly are people who believe that the Christian deity is immoral, evil, or otherwise unworthy of worship. Most, but not all, of those people also happen to be atheists, which means they're lumping "God" in with Voldemort, Darth Maul, and The Wicked Witch of the West. None of those beings are worthy of worship either :) Some of those people believe in other deities, and likewise consider the Christian deity to be non-existent. And some are modern Gnostics, and as such believe that the Christian God does exist, but is not the big guy you should worship (and is also somewhat evil). I actually know a few modern Gnostics, which is surprising to me as it's hardly a popular faith! Honest answer from me? I think there are still people who wouldn't follow what God said if he blasted it out loud and clear from the sky. Maybe they've predetermined there is no God, or he doesn't speak that way, or they just plain don't want to accept him as their authority, or a hundred other reasons. So why bother? Because traditionally God is supposed to be omnibenevolent, and that means not giving up on people just because they're a tough sell? I mean, that's like saying "I could walk an extra two feet to drop my soda can in the recycling bin, but most people don't, so it's not gonna save the earth, so why bother? In fact, why bother with the trash? I'll just toss it in the gutter" or "My kid is a real grouch in the morning, and I hate getting her up for school, and she never wants to go, and for sure she wouldn't want to homeschool, so why bother? I'll just let her sleep in until she's 18 and I can legally kick her out of the house!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 If there is a god, maybe he doesn't care about the groups. That wouldn't be consistent with the bible. The idea of chosen people, heretics, blasphemy, eternity of rewards or suffering based on one's standing, and all kinds of divisive qualities is an integral part of the identity of the god of the bible, and the relationship between him and the human race. If he didn't care about groups, the bible would be essentially useless with regards to knowing anything about him as it claims the very opposite. Outside the bible, there is no indication of such a character in the natural world, so the nature of his character and identity would no longer be judeo-christian in essence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILiveInFlipFlops Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I think the answer is, God said, "I will give these creatures superior minds and learning ability. In that way, they will be able to solve a multitude of problems, rather than pointlessly babble prayers to me." Poof! No need to be involved. Sort of like parenting, where the idea is to work yourself out of the job? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Christian belief on this topic is that it's not God's voice that is the problem, it's our ears. In the story of the garden, God and humans could communicate freely, but because of sin a separation occurred and is still in place that makes our ears hard of hearing. Some who have pursued God very hard have penetrated that barrier, their ears have been healed, by God's grace and with a humble heart that burns for God and they can hear Him. But it's the very rare case and there are these Saints throughout time and even today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slojo Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Moxie, it's the million dollar question. As a more mainline Christian who doesn't really hold the party line on a lot of things, I don't believe there's any specific revelations or people speaking for God in our time. I believe we know about God through the teachings of Jesus and through the wonder of creation, if that makes sense. Completely agree that it would be much easier if there were skywriting or announcements over the loudspeaker. But where's the fun in that?!? ;) I like the question of the original poster, I wonder about questions like that all the time. And I have since I was a kid -- I was the kid in religion class (went to parochial school) who asked the "out-of-the-box" questions that other kids thought were silly or weird. Like the time I asked, "Well if Jesus died for our sins, then what about people on other planets? If intelligent life on other planets exists, did Jesus die for their sins, too?" It was a serious question at the time (actually I'd still like to know). I think I was just a budding theologian, far, far ahead of my time. :lol: On the original question, I mean why couldn't God maybe once a year or so just set some things straight. There are a couple of "loud mouths" (mostly on TV) - and I'd love for God to say, "Nah, bro - you don't speak for me." That would be enough for me. But, we have to suffer their inane comments until Jesus comes back, apparently ;-)! (Please take that as tongue-in-cheek.) On a serious note, I think it is a worthy question. Just living the question of "What is God saying, right now? In these times? And why must it be so hard to discern?" At least for me - I live a very questioning faith -- not so cocksure that answers are so simple -- we see through a mirror darkly indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor_dad Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 For me how God manifests in our world is indeed a deep question. I view it as being tied up with the interlinked questions of free will and the existence of evil. If you can escape those labyrinths then the matter might be clearer. Until then, I think the question is unanswerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Sort of like parenting, where the idea is to work yourself out of the job? :D Quite precisely, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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