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What did SWB say she would do differently?


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I was talking about WTM at our homeschool group and was immediately cautioned by several moms that it is too intense, not for type A's and that Susan Wise-Bauer said she would do things differently herself now (presumably because it was too difficult or demanding). Do you know if this is true and if so where I can find this so I can see what she did say about lessons learned.

 

Thanks! I did try and search the forums but came up empty.

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She would still do (and is doing: her kids aren't all grown yet) a lot the same. She did say that for relationship reasons, one of her kids would've benefited from going to school at a certain point. But it's not like she has retracted TWTM!

This!

 

Of course there are things I would do differently. (Kids, by the way, are now 23, 21, 18, and 14. All thriving, in their own extremely individual ways.) And yes, I do think one of my sons would have done better in a school environment. Not for academic reasons--just because of the ways in which he related to us, to others, etc.

 

I share this in a live workshop only because children and parents are complicated.

 

But he education we describe in TWTM is NOT too difficult, or too demanding, or too intense. I followed it, with MANY ADAPTATIONS, with four very different kids, living four very different lives.

 

My workshops about the challenges that our kids present us with have never in any way repudiated what we've written in TWTM. They are, rather, an attempt to acknowledge that FAMILY LIFE IS COMPLICATED AND THERE IS NO SINGLE WAY OT TEACHING, LIVING, AND COPING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

 

I'm so distressed that my attempts to share the (sometimes bitter) insights from over two decades of parenting have been interpreted in this way. But this is what often what happens when you try to be honest. 

 

Sorry 'bout the shouting.

 

SWB

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Susan has spoken, but I will just add my two cents.

 

First, I have sat in on multiple sessions from both Susan and Jessie, and I was also blessed to have small group Q&A time with both Susan and Jessie on several occasions. Both have been frank about what worked well and what didn't and the need to tailor the education to each individual child's needs and strengths.

 

I have never, ever heard either of them retract any part of TWTM.

 

Second, I have used many, many suggestions from TWTM over the past thirteen years of homeschooling. It's not too intense. I think many personality types can make it work successfully. Many would describe me as Type A. I consider TWTM to be one of the finest homeschooling resources available.

 

As with anything else, some suggestions are likely to work well for you and your child, and others perhaps not as much. It's up to you to do the reading and research, to evaluate your working style and your child's working style, and also to evaluate your strengths and weaknesses and needs.

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Sorry, but if you implement something in a way that is too intense, that's your fault, not the program's fault. TWTM isn't some kind of educational boot camp where Susan cracks her whip if you slacken off from the cult's dictates. It's a work that presents a set of principles, a general approach and a slew of suggestions which we can implement to whatever extent we think it will work for us. If somebody doesn't want the responsibility for deciding this sort of thing, perhaps home education isn't that person's best option.

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Of course there are things I would do differently. (Kids, by the way, are now 23, 21, 18, and 14. All thriving, in their own extremely individual ways.) And yes, I do think one of my sons would have done better in a school environment. Not for academic reasons--just because of the ways in which he related to us, to others, etc.

 

 

But he education we describe in TWTM is NOT too difficult, or too demanding, or too intense. I followed it, with MANY ADAPTATIONS, with four very different kids, living four very different lives.

 

My workshops about the challenges that our kids present us with have never in any way repudiated what we've written in TWTM. They are, rather, an attempt to acknowledge that FAMILY LIFE IS COMPLICATED AND THERE IS NO SINGLE WAY OT TEACHING, LIVING, AND COPING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

 

I'm so distressed that my attempts to share the (sometimes bitter) insights from over two decades of parenting have been interpreted in this way. But this is what often what happens when you try to be honest.

 

SWB

You don't have a like button, so I am quoting to like. Homeschooling and parenting are both far too complicated to be nothing but sunshine and roses. It is a mixture of great successes, mild flops, some just good enoughs, with the occasional failure interwoven. Anyone who believes that the path is clear and just a stroll through buttercups and daisies without plenty of hurdles is going to face serious disappointment one day. Life is messy. Kids have minds of their own. Learning is not always linear. Homeschooling takes flexibility, adapting, along with large doses of fortitude, patience, and joy to make it to the end.

 

Thank you, Susan, for being honest and for offering this forum as a place to hang out and share.

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This!

 

Of course there are things I would do differently. (Kids, by the way, are now 23, 21, 18, and 14. All thriving, in their own extremely individual ways.) And yes, I do think one of my sons would have done better in a school environment. Not for academic reasons--just because of the ways in which he related to us, to others, etc.

 

I share this in a live workshop only because children and parents are complicated.

 

But he education we describe in TWTM is NOT too difficult, or too demanding, or too intense. I followed it, with MANY ADAPTATIONS, with four very different kids, living four very different lives.

 

My workshops about the challenges that our kids present us with have never in any way repudiated what we've written in TWTM. They are, rather, an attempt to acknowledge that FAMILY LIFE IS COMPLICATED AND THERE IS NO SINGLE WAY OT TEACHING, LIVING, AND COPING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

 

I'm so distressed that my attempts to share the (sometimes bitter) insights from over two decades of parenting have been interpreted in this way. But this is what often what happens when you try to be honest. 

 

Sorry 'bout the shouting.

 

SWB

 

I hope that you continue to share.  I, for one, much more inclined to listen to someone who acknowledges all the problems and challenges that they have encountered.  As a matter of fact, that usually gives people a lot more insight and understanding.

 

So, THANK YOU!!!!

 

 

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I hope that you continue to share.  I, for one, much more inclined to listen to someone who acknowledges all the problems and challenges that they have encountered.  As a matter of fact, that usually gives people a lot more insight and understanding.

 

Yep. Honesty rocks.

In fact, SWB cared enough about the implementation of TWTM to dedicate a forum to it, so that those of us working through it would have a place to talk it out, find encouragement and see how to adapt the ideas over a pretty varied group. Chances are good, you have a specific question about this or that, it's been worked over by The Hive.

When it comes down to it, after reading the book, I was sold when I found there was a well attended forum where I could go to ask questions and find answers. Nothing like having an entire place dedicated to home-education.

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I love SWB both as a person (I've had the pleasure of meeting and conversing with her several times) and as an author/educator. TWTM served as a jumping off point for me and got me going in a certain direction. Over the years (8 so far) I have modified how we do things to suit the needs and interests of my kids. My impression is that the extremely strong language and print focus of TWTM is a disaster for some kids, and I wish there were more guidance on how to work with kids who can't cope with the amount and level of print that SWB recommends. I feel that TWTM plays to every weakness my son has and as such would be just an exercise in frustration and failure if I persisted with it with him. Beyond that, TWTM is still my go-to book for ideas and theory. I can see, however, how people could be overwhelmed by it. When I read it the first time, my dd was two and my response was "Oh, HELLS no." I reread it when she was five and was much more favorably disposed to it. In the end, I think the included schedules (which SWB has stated she didn't wish to include) can be far too intimidating for those just beginning to homeschool. We don't do anything close to the officially stated amounts of time. But my kids are still getting a good, WTM-influenced education (even though we've departed the path quite starkly in some instances).

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Exactly. I would definitely not be homeschooling had I not read TWTM (and without the help of this forum).

 

 

Same for me!  I don't remember who recommended the book to me, but I am SO glad she did!  I felt like homeschooling was doable, and it gave me confidence to take the plunge.  And the forum?  Priceless.

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I love the reminders within this thread to make your homeschool right for your family.  I don't think any one of us can look back (ever!) and not feel like we should've done something differently at any point.  That's why we have that saying "Hindsight is 20-20."  But that doesn't mean we have to regret it, either.  That would just be a waste of time.  Learn from our mistakes, forgive ourselves, move on.  Knowing that we all feel that way, SWB included, means that we really shouldn't try to exactly imitate how anyone else is running their home, in our own home.  Yes, I am so thankful for the tips/advice/suggestions, just that we'll be disappointed if we think we'll have the exact same outcomes. 

 

(OP, I'm not talking directly at you, just the rhetorical you, but mostly to myself!!)

 

ETA: And yes, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Susan, for all that you've done for the homeschooling community! :hurray:   I am forever grateful. 

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I would not want to meet the homeschooling mother, or author, who says, "All of my plans were perfect for all of my children at all times and I would not change a single thing if I had it to do over again," because I'd know she was lying.

 

You don't raise children from birth through high school graduation without learning something, changing your mind, tweaking your plans, pivoting, or calling a Hail Mary now and then. You don't get there without really internalizing what we all know on the surface -- that no two children are alike and different decisions have to be made sometimes for the child's good or for the good of the family. We call that parenting.

 

The best counselors and mentors give us philosophies, road maps, instruction, and kicks in the pants but leave the precise details to the person actually doing the job. The adult on the ground who bears the responsibility has to feel qualified to finesse the procedure, whether we're talking about a homeschool mom or a foreman on a job site. That's where the heart and talent come in.

 

AND that assumption is built into every book such as TWTM, that each family will choose exactly how to carry out these philosophies and goals to help their children gain this knowledge and these skills. Those who fail to grasp that truth are not looking for classical education.

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This!

 

Of course there are things I would do differently. (Kids, by the way, are now 23, 21, 18, and 14. All thriving, in their own extremely individual ways.) And yes, I do think one of my sons would have done better in a school environment. Not for academic reasons--just because of the ways in which he related to us, to others, etc.

 

I share this in a live workshop only because children and parents are complicated.

 

But he education we describe in TWTM is NOT too difficult, or too demanding, or too intense. I followed it, with MANY ADAPTATIONS, with four very different kids, living four very different lives.

 

My workshops about the challenges that our kids present us with have never in any way repudiated what we've written in TWTM. They are, rather, an attempt to acknowledge that FAMILY LIFE IS COMPLICATED AND THERE IS NO SINGLE WAY OT TEACHING, LIVING, AND COPING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

 

I'm so distressed that my attempts to share the (sometimes bitter) insights from over two decades of parenting have been interpreted in this way. But this is what often what happens when you try to be honest. 

 

Sorry 'bout the shouting.

 

SWB

 

Quoting because there is no like button. And I couldn't like this post enough anyway. 

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Having heard SWB speak at the Richmond conference last year, the thing I took away from it was that you can be both rigorous and flexible. Also, to focus on the big goals, like healthy kids with solid skills, before the lesser ones, like getting to a specific time period in history or something. I think TWTM on its own, just because of the way it was organized, perhaps according in part to the needs of the publisher, and just because of the size of the thing, can seem daunting and inflexible. But when Susan actually spoke about it, it felt much more like a living method for real children.

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AND that assumption is built into every book such as TWTM, that each family will choose exactly how to carry out these philosophies and goals to help their children gain this knowledge and these skills. Those who fail to grasp that truth are not looking for classical education.

It's the difference between a compass and a road map.

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I think TWTM on its own, just because of the way it was organized, perhaps according in part to the needs of the publisher, and just because of the size of the thing, can seem daunting and inflexible. 

 

This. I actually told SWB that she is a lot different in person than the impression I had of her from reading her book. She's a lot more relaxed and funny and, well, normal. She told me I wasn't the first person to tell her that.

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This. I actually told SWB that she is a lot different in person than the impression I had of her from reading her book. She's a lot more relaxed and funny and, well, normal. She told me I wasn't the first person to tell her that.

 

 

Yep.  This is why I find myself directing people to her audio lectures more often than a particular chapter in TWTM.  She sounds so . . real.  Like somebody sitting across the table from you at the coffee shop, sharing stories, eyerolls & all, giving advice, and just being incredibly generous.

 

Ok, I just shared a major fantasy.   :001_wub:   SWB is definitely on my top-ten list of people I'd actually like to sit down with for coffee,  IRL.

 

And I just realized that the other 9 are mostly people from the Forums, too!  :cheers2:

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So...to get off the bunny trail...and maybe start another... ;)

 

OP,

 

I read your 'about me' and I totally agree that a lot of hs moms don't really want to talk education. IME most are looking for a social club where they can pat each other on the back and make each other feel better about decisions they have made for their kids' education whether good or bad.

 

This is one major reason why I'm not part of a hs group...and why I ask my education questions here. :)

 

I don't bother to share my thoughts about TWTM (IRL) unless I know the person is really wanting/seeking that kind of info. 

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You know, I think I might ask OtherJohn if he can do a bunny emoticon. You know, for when people head off on rabbit trails?

 

I thought about a "hijacker" emoticon, but that just seems kind of tacky. And also might open us up to Homeland Security investigation.

 

SWB

Can I hijack us down a bunny trail? Any word on a WWS guide book? :D

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So...to get off the bunny trail...and maybe start another... ;)

 

OP,

 

I read your 'about me' and I totally agree that a lot of hs moms don't really want to talk education. IME most are looking for a social club where they can pat each other on the back and make each other feel better about decisions they have made for their kids' education whether good or bad.

 

This is one major reason why I'm not part of a hs group...and why I ask my education questions here. :)

 

I don't bother to share my thoughts about TWTM (IRL) unless I know the person is really wanting/seeking that kind of info. 

 

Ditto.  I stopped sharing my approach and materials long ago.  Too many misunderstandings.  I come here to discuss academics. 

 

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This!

 

Of course there are things I would do differently. (Kids, by the way, are now 23, 21, 18, and 14. All thriving, in their own extremely individual ways.) And yes, I do think one of my sons would have done better in a school environment. Not for academic reasons--just because of the ways in which he related to us, to others, etc.

 

I share this in a live workshop only because children and parents are complicated.

 

But he education we describe in TWTM is NOT too difficult, or too demanding, or too intense. I followed it, with MANY ADAPTATIONS, with four very different kids, living four very different lives.

 

My workshops about the challenges that our kids present us with have never in any way repudiated what we've written in TWTM. They are, rather, an attempt to acknowledge that FAMILY LIFE IS COMPLICATED AND THERE IS NO SINGLE WAY OT TEACHING, LIVING, AND COPING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

 

I'm so distressed that my attempts to share the (sometimes bitter) insights from over two decades of parenting have been interpreted in this way. But this is what often what happens when you try to be honest. 

 

Sorry 'bout the shouting.

 

SWB

 

 

I've listened to your workshop on this topic and I took away from it exactly what you're saying here. Definitely didn't get any sense that there were regrets about the overall choices or method of homeschooling and just a lot of really helpful honesty and specific insights reassuring everyone that homeschool should always be tweaked to suit the student, parent, and the particular situation. I definitely got the sense it was more specific things you wished you'd done this way or that, or things you wished you'd realized were legitimate options (like allowing one kid to go to school for a bit when it might have been a better fit). As a newer homeschooling mom I value those insights from those on the other side with multiple homeschool graduates successfully launched. 

 

Anyway, I didn't want you to think that all or even most people who listen to your workshops came away with those misconceptions. I felt like you clearly presented your personal experience and also gave some more general advice that could be extrapolated to other families' situations. 

 

And for what it's worth I feel like WTM is a pretty basic homeschool method, not too rigorous or too light. I have to go faster and further than the prescribed path with my advanced kid and slow it down and hang out in the grammar stage forever for my special needs kid. I keep waiting for a normal kindergartener where i can do the usual suggestions :) My 4 year old shows great signs of being wonderfully average so I'm still holding out hope! 

 

Also, WTM was the one book/resource that gave me permission to teach my young kid to read when he wanted to, that he would be fine and it wouldn't kill his childhood to have 5-10 minute reading sessions during rest time a few times a week. It's such a rarity to find someone in favor of early reading in the homeschool world, reading that little preschool section was a breath of fresh air. 

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So, (this is how my df always starts her stories...)

 

When my 16 year old, 8th grade son turned to me in the car and said, "I've been thinking about something. I've been thinking about being homeschooled," I did not drive off into the ditch, but was able to say, "Tell me about that," and listen to his answer.

I had been reading WTM in preparation for homeschooling his 5yo sister for K, and had read the whole book.

 

Because of the scope of the book, the detailed methods and clearly described philosophy contained in it, I could consider ds' request with excitement, not panic, and ultimately decide that homeschooling was worth a shot.

 

I did not know that our family was about to enter a horrific, difficult time involving addiction and mental illness, residential rehab, and intense examination of...well, of every parental and personal assumption I held in my life. Homeschooling allowed my family to stay together.

 

It is because of WTM/SWB/JW that we made it through. Really. They get so much credit, because the priceless gift of feeling courageous and capable enough to attempt to homeschool kindy AND high school, two of the most important parts of the spectrum of education, meant that I could be present for the family members who needed something sweet, steady, inspiring, God-breathed and tailored to them in the midst of chaos.

 

There aren't enough words in all the world to say thank you for that.

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(Bunny trail...WWS "core" handbook is still on the to-do list! Further updates as developments warrant...)

 

swb

Celebration dance at my house!

 

I'm happy to support Peace Hill Press and your other books simply because I know you give generously of your personal time and your company's resources to support the homeschooling community.

 

There are good people who run good businesses. If I don't show my financial support, how can they keep operating?

 

There's more I could say, but it would be a rambling mess. It all comes down to simply... Thank you.

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I was talking about WTM at our homeschool group and was immediately cautioned by several moms that it is too intense, not for type A's and that Susan Wise-Bauer said she would do things differently herself now (presumably because it was too difficult or demanding). Do you know if this is true and if so where I can find this so I can see what she did say about lessons learned.

 

Thanks! I did try and search the forums but came up empty.

 

I've read the rest of the thread, but wanted to come back to this original post to comment. It's funny, because some HSers I know IRL have heard of and/or used TWTM and have this impression that it's "too intense." I can never wrap my head around that perception, because from the first time I read the 1st edition (in 1999, long before I had children) to this day with the 3rd edition, I've always thought it was so flexible and adaptable, especially in the high school years.

 

Seriously, a large part of what drew me to this approach initially was that Jessie and Susan, in writing TWTM, seemed so down-to-earth and like salt-of-the-earth people, and everything they wrote was with a sort of "work this out in your own family" humility, that I just can never grasp how people feel they become "enslaved" to it (one former WTMer's terminology). I reread the book all the time, and still can't find anything adamant or demanding or "too intense" about it, and certainly nothing that would require a homeschooling parent to check his or her brain at the door and drink the kool-aid.

 

But still, from time to time, people will say, "Oh, that. I followed that slavishly for two years, and it nearly killed me and my relationship with my children."

 

I just do not get it. Why would you (generic you), in trying to train your children to think, follow anything slavishly?

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I've read the rest of the thread, but wanted to come back to this original post to comment. It's funny, because some HSers I know IRL have heard of and/or used TWTM and have this impression that it's "too intense." I can never wrap my head around that perception, because from the first time I read the 1st edition (in 1999, long before I had children) to this day with the 3rd edition, I've always thought it was so flexible and adaptable, especially in the high school years.

 

Seriously, a large part of what drew me to this approach initially was that Jessie and Susan, in writing TWTM, seemed so down-to-earth and like salt-of-the-earth people, and everything they wrote was with a sort of "work this out in your own family" humility, that I just can never grasp how people feel they become "enslaved" to it (one former WTMer's terminology). I reread the book all the time, and still can't find anything adamant or demanding or "too intense" about it, and certainly nothing that would require a homeschooling parent to check his or her brain at the door and drink the kool-aid.

 

But still, from time to time, people will say, "Oh, that. I followed that slavishly for two years, and it nearly killed me and my relationship with my children."

 

I just do not get it. Why would you (generic you), in trying to train your children to think, follow anything slavishly?

I agree and all I can think is its a personality thing. Maybe to really type A box-checkers all those repeated pleas to "use common sense" just get blown over but that LIST, oh goodness the TIME TABLES, are etched permanently in the brain. "Use common sense" cannot be crossed off, after all. To addicted curriculum tweakers like 90% of this board, it's just not the same.

 

I think too there is a big difference between a homeschooling mother that sees herself as a teacher, administrator and curriculum designer, and TWTM as a useful guide book....and the homeschooling mother that sees herself as the teacher and TWTM as the administrator and curriculum designer. It seems odd to me that families can in one breath talk about how they have revolted from the yoke of "government control" and in the next admit they let a book control them...but there it is. Some people just haven't figured out they are running this ship.

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This!

 

Of course there are things I would do differently. (Kids, by the way, are now 23, 21, 18, and 14. All thriving, in their own extremely individual ways.) And yes, I do think one of my sons would have done better in a school environment. Not for academic reasons--just because of the ways in which he related to us, to others, etc.

 

I share this in a live workshop only because children and parents are complicated.

 

But he education we describe in TWTM is NOT too difficult, or too demanding, or too intense. I followed it, with MANY ADAPTATIONS, with four very different kids, living four very different lives.

 

My workshops about the challenges that our kids present us with have never in any way repudiated what we've written in TWTM. They are, rather, an attempt to acknowledge that FAMILY LIFE IS COMPLICATED AND THERE IS NO SINGLE WAY OT TEACHING, LIVING, AND COPING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

 

I'm so distressed that my attempts to share the (sometimes bitter) insights from over two decades of parenting have been interpreted in this way. But this is what often what happens when you try to be honest.

 

Sorry 'bout the shouting.

 

SWB

 

I appreciate your honesty and openness, and even more so that this isn't necessarily a one way fits all approach. I know that I beat myself up continuously and harshly when I first started homeschooling and felt I wasn't following the book to the letter. I almost quit homeschooling. The Well Trained Mind is a wonderful resource and classical education is a rigorous and exacting education, but there is a different homeschool experience for every family and even every child in the same family. The Well Trained Mind isn't a cookbook where if you add the exact amount you will get the perfect child, I don't think that is ever what you meant it to be. What it is for me is the very best jumping off point and outline of what classical education looks like and material choices to get started. Our kids are always going to be our best teachers in how to teach them, but your books make it so much easier.

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I've listened to your workshop on this topic and I took away from it exactly what you're saying here. Definitely didn't get any sense that there were regrets about the overall choices or method of homeschooling and just a lot of really helpful honesty and specific insights reassuring everyone that homeschool should always be tweaked to suit the student, parent, and the particular situation. I definitely got the sense it was more specific things you wished you'd done this way or that, or things you wished you'd realized were legitimate options (like allowing one kid to go to school for a bit when it might have been a better fit). As a newer homeschooling mom I value those insights from those on the other side with multiple homeschool graduates successfully launched.

 

Anyway, I didn't want you to think that all or even most people who listen to your workshops came away with those misconceptions. I felt like you clearly presented your personal experience and also gave some more general advice that could be extrapolated to other families' situations.

 

And for what it's worth I feel like WTM is a pretty basic homeschool method, not too rigorous or too light. I have to go faster and further than the prescribed path with my advanced kid and slow it down and hang out in the grammar stage forever for my special needs kid. I keep waiting for a normal kindergartener where i can do the usual suggestions :) My 4 year old shows great signs of being wonderfully average so I'm still holding out hope!

 

Also, WTM was the one book/resource that gave me permission to teach my young kid to read when he wanted to, that he would be fine and it wouldn't kill his childhood to have 5-10 minute reading sessions during rest time a few times a week. It's such a rarity to find someone in favor of early reading in the homeschool world, reading that little preschool section was a breath of fresh air.

I totally agree with this! I have heard you say that in a workshop too and I did not have that misconception.

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