Cogat scores mean what? Please help!

[mom2]

Okay, my daughter just got her test results back and they say 109 Standard Age Score, 71 Age Percentile Rank, and then 185 Universal Scale Score.  My goal is to get her into the Young Scholarship program and then the GT program.  She is 8 and is in 3rd grade.  Is her scores bad?  Also, what do you have to have (score wise) to get into the GT program. 

Thank you!

 

[AnIslandGirl]

Just looking a the standard age score= 89-111 is average, 112-127 is above average and 128-150+ is very high (required for gifted).

At this time, it appears that you daughter is in the average range and would not qualify for the Young Scholarship program at this time. Have you had a Neuro-psychologist administer a current IQ test? To be honest, this is the single most requested information for qualification to the gifted program in our area (it could certainly be different for you though) Locally, children need a minimum of a 136 IQ to participate in the GT program.

Remember though that a single test is just a snap-shot of a child's abilities on any given day.

Best wishes.

[wapiti]

In my experience, CogAT scores are not necessarily an accurate reflection of ability level and in my opinion they mean very little outside of gaining admission to a school program.

 

You need to ask your school GT people what scores they require for the GT program.  The cutoff varies widely among school districts.  (Off the cuff, for what it's worth, if the percentile rank is 71, then my guess would be that's insufficient for most GT programs; while they're all different, most are looking at least for 95th percentile if not 98th.)

 

 

[Nart]

I don't think scores are ever good or bad. For every group of 100 kids who are the same age as your child, your daughter did better than or equal to 71 kids. So 29 out of every group of 100 had more answers correct than your child. Every district has different procedures to getting into the GT (I assume you mean gifted program). Do they look at other criteria? In my child's district, the Gifted cut-off for intellectual abilities is scoring at or above the 96th percentile rank. If you score from the 92nd to the 95th percentile rank, they ask teachers to comment and look at your academic achievement scores. Where her scores consistent across the three areas Verbal, Nonverbal, Quant? Did she have a higher score in one or two of the categories then the third score pulled down her average?

[Tsuga]

It is one measure of IQ.

 

In our school district, you would have to have a 150 in one area and a 135 minimum in every area, where your daughter has a 109 average across areas. In our district, you must be in the 98th percentile in IQ as well as on subject tests. I think that it would have to be a very bad day, or a child would have to have other learning disabilities along with profound giftedness, to get a 109 score if she were really profoundly gifted. I say this as the parent of non-gifted kids though. Anything is possible.

 

"My goal is to get her into the Young Scholarship program and then the GT program."

 

Most GT programs in public schools are at most two years ahead; you can easily make that up over the summer or after school with an intelligent, motivated child. That's what we'll be doing.

 

May I recommend Carolyn Dweck's work on Mindset? Dweck's work, a large body of scientific evidence, suggests that mind set and the ability and desire to overcome difficult situations, are far, far more important than being in a specific program. No matter what your IQ, your achievement is much more likely to depend on your willingness to try new things and get up after failure.

 

If your goal is to ensure that your child is challenged, and achieves, I think that looking at Dweck's work and designing a challenging after-school program and perhaps taking up other activities could do just as much for your child as a GT program.

 

Best of luck.

[Dmmetler]

It's going to depend on what programs you want to get into. In my experience, the COGAT and OLSAT tend to be screening tests only. In my district, for example, a score over about 115 leads to further screening, but it takes other tests, teacher surveys, and in-class observation to actually qualify. (The relatively low cutoff is to account for kids who, for whatever reason, don't test well.)

 

A lot of the outside programs have their own screening path, so you'll have to check with the program you want.

 

 

 

[kiwik]

Why is that your goal? Is she bored/underchallenged? Do you have reason to think she is underachieving?

[Grover]

Given your goal I assume you have other reasons for thinking she's gifted?  These scores don't suggest that she's gifted, but there could be many reasons for "underperforming".  You'll need other evidence so its probably best to find out just exactly what your particular "goal group" will accept. 

 

ETA: Sorry, just looking around to answer my own questions, I see she scored in a similar range on the MAP last year, so her scores seem pretty consistent.  I see also that your school won't tell you what the cut off is.  In general terms you are probably looking at needing a bare minimum of 90th percentile to get her looked at further, and that's being really generous, most will be 95th or 98th to start considering her.  A comprehensive cognitive ability assessment with a trained professional is probably the next step... but you have two tests that are at a similar range now, so I'm not sure if it's worth your time and money... If you truly believe that her ability is higher than her current tested achievement, then that's where to next.

[Mabelen]

I may be way off, so please ignore if this doesn't apply here. OP, you may find yourself under a lot of peer pressure for your daughter to achieve high. Aiming high is all good as long as we keep the needs of the whole child in sight first and foremost. It is better to find your child's sweet spot where she is academically challenged and learning optimally rather than to pursue a specific academically demanding program. If your daughter is not ready for that program, it may not help her achieve as high and instead it may unnecessarily stress her out due to its excessive demands. Don't panic, your child will achieve as long as she works diligently with you.

I would look at your daughter's personality. Is she seeking extra challenge? Does she excell when there is tough competition? If so, she may benefit from being in a competitive academic environment. In this case, your next step is to get an individual IQ test and see if she qualifies for the gifted and talented school program. if she does, great! If not, you can still find academic challenge for her through extracurricular involvement in your school or your community.

If she is not looking for extra challenge and she does not like tough competition, I would work with her at home to her strengths.

[jennynd]

Is that form 7? DS tested 2 years ago and will again this year but they only gave percentile. I heard for our district, it is 97 percentile to qualify. They do test at 3rd grade and again 4th if a kid did not qualify at the 3rd grade entry point. And all kids will take test again in 5th for middle school gifted program. Some kids who were not qualified at 3rd grade entry later qualify at 4th grade. So the score does get improve the 2nd time they do the test. So, maybe try again next year.

 

Also cogat does not test IQ. From what I heard, it is more a academic achievement than iq test..

[Arcadia]

If you think your child might be 2E, go for outside psych testing. My district does accept parents recommendation accompanied by psychologist testing report.

 

Before my district scrap the GT program, testing was just the first round. There was a second round of interviews.

[Crimson Wife]

Did they give you stanines? 9th stanine is considered gifted. Stanines are slightly different than deciles because they are designed to put most kids in the middle stanines and relatively fewer in the outlying ones. I believe 9th stanine corresponds to 95th or 96th percentile but I'd have to pull out my old stats book to confirm.

[Tsuga]

Is that form 7? DS tested 2 years ago and will again this year but they only gave percentile. I heard for our district, it is 97 percentile to qualify. They do test at 3rd grade and again 4th if a kid did not qualify at the 3rd grade entry point. And all kids will take test again in 5th for middle school gifted program. Some kids who were not qualified at 3rd grade entry later qualify at 4th grade. So the score does get improve the 2nd time they do the test. So, maybe try again next year.

 

Also cogat does not test IQ. From what I heard, it is more a academic achievement than iq test..

 

Cogat is not an achievement test. It is a reasoning abilities test. It is frequently used to judge ability for the purpose of admittance to G&T programs.

 

The score does not improve for every child the second time. Repeated testing leads to regression towards the mean, a statistical phenomenon. This phenomenon can be described as a state of affairs in which the more times you measure something, the more likely the average of those measurements is going to be closer to the true value.

 

So for example, say you have a star basketball shooter. If you give her only one test, and one shot, she could miss. Everyone has bad days, and nobody is 100%. But if you test her 10 times, she will probably do better than a less talented shooter over those ten shots. Like the star might get 9/10 and the less talented shooter 8/10. But then if you repeat that exam 10 times, once per week over a period of 10 weeks, you are really going to get a strong measure of each shooter's real ability.

 

When children take repeated tests, you can figure out which tests are artificially low. However, IQ tests and the Cogat are designed to require zero prior knowledge or experience; while you can artificially inflate a child's score with "hothousing" or even outright dishonest cheating such as preparing a child for particular question types, an average score is not likely due to lack of experience.

 

Though OP's child may score better over repeated testing, and may have a learning disability which makes her unable to show her true abilities, the vast majority of children who score in the average zone for the Cogat are actually of average reasoning ability.

 

It is disingenuous to suggest spending further resources, not to mention the child's mental effort, unless OP has given further information that would suggest that the score is artificially low. (E.g. child has uncanny mental math abilities but is unable to write numbers, for example.)

[beishan]

I have a third grader as well. His composite score is 108 with relative higher score (113) at nonverbal and relative lower score at quantitative(102). His overall profile is high average. He is bilingual and still a bit behind in writing.

Your daughter's score is not going to get her in GT. Most of GT program requires at least 90~95% in two categories. Your daughter's composite percentile is only 71% which is far below the criteria. One thing need to note is that they have to read the test themselves in third grade. CoGat test is read to them in K and 1st grade if your school administrate it at that age. 2E child with LD in reading may impact the score a lot.

[treasuremapper]

What young scholar program are you talking about? 

 

I know that a few school programs make attempts to consider a child's background and non-academic giftedness. Our daughter's scores would have met the criteria for GT at one of her schools, and the school warned me that the scores alone were just a starting place.

 

The Cogat is a simple inexpensive pencil and paper test that considers achievement as well as cognitive abilities.  Your daughters scores are good but if admission is based on her score alone, it is unlikely that she would qualify for most GT programs.  

 

However, if other factors are considered, then she might qualify.  It really depends on the criteria.

 

[kiwik]

The only young scholars programme I know of is Davidson. That requires above 99.9th percentile.

 

Having said that I have heard of kids not testing as gifted on the cogat who did on individual tests. What I don't know is whether they just missed on cogat (I suspect so) or whether the difference was large. Is she happy and doing well at school in general?

[mathnerd]

My goal is to get her into the Young Scholarship program and then the GT program.  She is 8 and is in 3rd grade. 

If you are expecting to get her into the DYS program, they require "Individually Administered" tests for both IQ and Achievement. Since CogAT is a group test, you can use the scores from it for her portfolio, but not for qualifying for DYS. Here is the link to the tests accepted by DYS for qualifying:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/Article/Davidson_Young_Scholars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx

 

If you expect your daughter to get into DYS, her scores must be 99.9 percentile or above in one of the required subtests of the individually administered IQ tests. Are you hoping to use the CogAT scores to determine if there is a basis for spending the money and effort on individual IQ testing? If so, there could be many reasons that the child does not have higher than expected scores in CogAT (group setting being a distraction, inexperience with a paper and pencil test, any undetected 2E's etc). If you are seeing DYS potential in your 8 year old and the CogAT test results are not matching that kind of a student profile, then, there is strong reason to have her tested individually to get an in-depth report on what her cognitive profile is like. Good luck.

[Jennifer N.]

These tests are not the end all and be all of life. I learned the hard way. Advocate for your child if you think necessary. Do what needs to be done if necessary (including, gasp, test prep). I did this on the later end. My kids are thriving in an advanced program. Yes, even the "borderline" kid. Screw IQ tests.

[Tsuga]

You would say that a child who is a full standard deviation or two below the mean of a G&T program should be put in that program, which is aimed at highly motivated, highly gifted children?

 

That's the main reason I decided to stop testing though my child was very near the cutoff and met the math criteria. What is the point if they're actually just putting all the kids of the parents who say "screw it, I know she's special" in one class?

 

I wouldn't put an average-achieving child in a program aimed at the gifted and talented. It's unfair to the children who need to be accelerated beyond what a typical child can do. The teacher would have to teach to a wider range of intelligences than in the "normal" classroom. And yes, I do apply morality to how I treat my kids. I don't think it's my duty to prioritize them above all even if it involves bending the rules.

 

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17089(middle-achieving students do not benefit from acceleration in G&T programs)

 

http://economics.virginia.edu/sites/economics.virginia.edu/files/applied/giuliano.pdf(only works for the highest achieving children in poorer schools)

 

https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/39642/dean_kelley_m_201008_phd.pdf(results all over the place--somewhat amateur paper but she publishes all of her tables which is cool)

 

School is what you make it. Barring exceptional circumstances, your place in the group is not likely to change, except possibly if you are way out of sync.

[Jennifer N.]

Wow, I have to completely disagree with you.  Even GT educators will tell you, one test is just a snapshot of a child on that one particular day.  I put my opinion out there (even though I knew I'd get flack for it) so that other parents could hear a different viewpoint and make a decision that works for them and their children.  I've done a lot of research on this topic myself.  I've even spoken with the head of cognitive testing at a local university as well as the head of our county's accelerated program (not in relation to my own children, but just in general).  Their viewpoints align closely with mine -- bar, screw the iq tests.  In fact, one of them told me a few children who don't initially qualify for the program just need the chance to be exposed to the program and they thrive and flourish academically.

 

If a parent, after serious consideration, truly thought their child would benefit from an advanced program, I do think they should pursue all avenues.  See how the child does.

 

By the way, "test prepping" is not a moral issue.  Homeschoolers call it teaching critical thinking skills.  I attended a presentation last spring by a woman who works for the Critical Thinking Skills company.  As she was explaining the benefits of some of their materials to the homeschoolers in the group, I raised my hand and asked aren't these the same materials CTS recommends for preparing for gt type tests.  She said , yes exactly.  But (some) homeschoolers believe in teaching these skills directly for the sake of the value of the skill.  Not for gt test prep.  I specifically taught certain skills to my oldest and I continue to see a benefit in his visual perception skills, among others, that is an asset to him in life, not just for a test. 

 

For those interested, you can hop over to the Critical Thinking Skills company website for more info on their various materials.  They're a pretty well known company.

[kiwik]

I didn't prep either of my kids for their IQ tests. If I had they wouldn't be as accurate and besides the proper tests aren't freely available. The purpose of gifted programmes should be to meet the real needs of those who need them. If they are full of kids who were prepped the gifted kids still don't get their needs met. This is not to say that the kids in the 70th percentile up wouldn't benefit from extension just that it should not be at the expense of those who are gifted.

 

The way round it would be tracking or placement by readiness rather than age.

 

For disclosure we don't have any of these things or gifted programmes but the extension programmes run from time to time run into the same problem as the teachers pick two kids from each class that they think will benefit and the pace and content has to be adjusted to the lowest ability in the group.

[Kalmia]

Take a deep breath, realize these tests are designed to test just a few specialized reasoning skills. Nothing this test reveals means your child is an "average" person or of "average" talent or intellect. It is just a tool people have come up with to sort people in a certain fashion for mainly school related activities.

 

Repeat after me: Nothing a school ever says about who your child "is" will ever capture her passions, spirit, intelligence, drive, dreams or wit. Your child is unique in her gifts.

 

Far better than being in a gifted and talented program is having parents that see her as a whole person and can give her the enrichment she will most benefit from. Look to her strengths and interests and enrich them with books, documentaries, musuems, field trips, lessons, and meeting people who do the things she loves. I was in a G/T program until I left public high school for private high school. Trust me, the things my family did outside the school building and the classical education I got at private school far better met my needs than the acceleration and pull outs in public school g/t.