DD's dyslexic...right? Confused.

[ElizabethB]

My how to tutor materials teach all the phonics you need to sound out anything up to a 12th grade level, you can go through it in 2 hours or a month depending on the pace of the student, a student taught with traditional phonics and no sight words can learn it all in a few hours.

 

It is designed for someone making the exact errors your daughter is making, I have worked with hundreds of remedial students over the last 21 years.

 

A few of my students have underlying speech or vision problems as well, but most don't.

 

An older student will take much longer to remediate because the guessing habits have been ingrained for years. Older students take months of stopping reading and may take a year or more to fully remediate, and most still have a degree of guessing habits. A younger student can be completely retrained when you stop outside reading and use nonsense words and syllables to force them to sound out every sound from L to R.

[Heathermomster]

I am not sure that the advice is contradictory. The WRTR based programs all teach phonograms, spelling rules, dictation, and use of high frequency word lists.

 

Speed of teaching relates directly to how quickly the student can learn and apply the phonograms. The student seems like she may not know all the phonograms. This should not be surprising as there has been a sight word emphasis. If she is starting AAS3 and phonics was never taught before, I would guess she doesn't really know all the phonograms. Assuming no dyslexia, the question then becomes how fast should this mom go? Where should she start? What materials should she use, and what materials will she be most comfortable teaching? When should np testing happen?

 

The OP needs to go at the pace of the student, using VSL techniques and whatever learning style benefits her student. I think SWR/LOE/WRTR/AAR/ElizabethB would do. It's now a matter of what mom feels comfortable teaching and her willingness to tweak the curriculum by skipping lessons or speeding up/down.

 

I think we all fundamentally agree though. I assume mom is tweaking whatever she is using, but maybe that is the wrong assumption.

[ElizabethB]

Here is a sample of a short course for a well taught phonics student, the last bit is the 12th grade level stuff, this is a small cross section of what is on my how to tutor page without the spelling rules.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/A%20Crash%20Course%20in%20Polysyllables.pdf

[pitterpatter]

You're correct...DD doesn't know all phonograms and I don't know all the rules to teach her on the fly. When she comes to a word that she can't figure out how to pronounce and I don't know how to tell her why it's pronounced that way (and I don't want to make a guess and not get it quite right because DD will remember that I told her incorrectly), I just have to tell her the word. I'll even comment that we haven't gotten to that in AAS yet. I'm learning those rules for the very first time alongside her. We used HOP, which taught word families without explanation to the whys.

 

For example, there may have been a lesson on -ind words where the vowel is long. There was no explanation to why the i is long. There would have simply been a list of words that rhyme for her to read. Then, there would have been a short story cramming in as many of those words as possible. DD doesn't have a problem with reading -ind words. However, whenever I first started teaching her to read, I had no clue why the i was long either. I would just have to remind her that the i was long in such and such word.

 

I will admit that one reason I'm hesitant to speed track without a full curriculum is because of my inadequacies. (I'm college educated, but not in linguistics...obviously.) I don't remember the subtleties of some rules I've learn with AAS. Some have fine distinctions like rarely or never. I'll remember there's something with -ng and -nk, but I won't remember which one is rarely and which one is never. I have to defer to DD. I used to double-check her, but she was never wrong. I used to be prideful of my memory, but it has gotten old, foggy and cluttered. LOL! (I'm in my late thirties, so not that old, but I'm not DD's age either. Her memory puts mine to shame.)

 

I make constant adjustments to DD's curriculum. I speed up or slow down depending on how things are going. We do certain things orally because they are easy for DD and she can get them done in five minutes instead of 20-30 writing them down. I will admit I am not very good at cutting material. I'm afraid it will come back to bite me. I try to do as many of the more words, phrases and sentences in AAS as DD will tolerate, which slows us down. (I figure they are there, so they must be important.) I have tweaked that, though. I no longer have her repeat the more words that are found in phrases/sentences too. I choose one or the other unless she just totally butchers a word. Trying to fit all of the green cards in for a second time (or third or fourth or fifth...depending on the word) also slows us down. I wasted time after the first level reviewing because she hadn't mastered all of the words. DD has always been a likes-to-do kind of girl. So, I have tried to incorporate hands-on activities. She loves worksheets too, particularly ones that keep her active circling and underlining...the kind other homeschoolers regard as busywork. They keep her focused. 

 

PS - Perhaps I should look into a class action lawsuit for Hooked on Phonics since it doesn't really teach phonics!!  :cursing: I didn't realize what a poor program it was until we started AAS. Complete waste of time.

 

 

I am not sure that the advice is contradictory. The WRTR based programs all teach phonograms, spelling rules, dictation, and use of high frequency word lists.

Speed of teaching relates directly to how quickly the student can learn and apply the phonograms. The student seems like she may not know all the phonograms. This should not be surprising as there has been a sight word emphasis. If she is starting AAS3 and phonics was never taught before, I would guess she doesn't really know all the phonograms. Assuming no dyslexia, the question then becomes how fast should this mom go? Where should she start? What materials should she use, and what materials will she be most comfortable teaching? When should np testing happen?

The OP needs to go at the pace of the student, using VSL techniques and whatever learning style benefits her student. I think SWR/LOE/WRTR/AAR/ElizabethB would do. It's now a matter of what mom feels comfortable teaching and her willingness to tweak the curriculum by skipping lessons or speeding up/down.

I think we all fundamentally agree though. I assume mom is tweaking whatever she is using, but maybe that is the wrong assumption.

 

[pitterpatter]

Isn't that the truth?!  :p Good thoughts from many sides.

 

I've gone around some of these blocks before (just kind of forgot that I had), but DD was quite a bit younger then. DH and I figured out good a while ago that DD has some kind of otherness. Does she have ADD, dyslexia, is she VSL, is she gifted, is she all of the above or something else? We considered getting her tested (more for IQ), but she was five or six at the time and decided against it. We just termed it an otherness. I've just tried to challenge her where I can (and provide enough or extra of what she particularly enjoys) and work on her weaknesses, but perhaps I've not done a good job in determining what's right for her.

 

I have one child and not a lot of exposure to other children her age (within the academic realm anyway) until recently when I became her Brownie troop leader. It's difficult for me to know what is typical or normal. I've tried not to worry about it and just focus on DD, but I can't help but worry I'm not doing enough, too much, something just plain wrong, which apparently I have.

 

This tipped my apple cart. It's partially the reason I'm here. It created doubt when I was fairly happy how things were going.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/538494-how-long-does-it-take-your-child-to-silent-read-a-magic-tree-house-book/ - This is a thread I started.

 

 

Pitterpatter, you're probably feeling a little confused about the contradictory advice, eh?   :D

 

[pitterpatter]

I just want to say that I greatly appreciate everyone's input. I'm in awe that so many would take the time to help me figure this out.

[PeterPan]

The easiest way to get yourself up to speed would be to see if your library has WRTR or SWR. I'm trying to find you a list online, but I'm not turning up a good copy.  If you get the actual WRTR list (not the modified, nasty ones people are posting online), they'll be almost identical, with just a few tweaks, to your AAS list.  The rules should be there too.  Then you'll see where it's going.

 

I keep mentioning links and excluding elizabethb's.  It's really not because of animosity or something.  I just don't know anything about it.  Definitely check list out too.  These methodologies are SO similar for the most part that if you just pick ANY of the programs and spend a few hours, maybe work through some words and apply the rules and phonograms, that it should click and make you more confident.  

 

SWR comes with a cheat sheet in their rules packet.  I laminated it to use as a bookmark in my manuals.  I don't *remember* what came with my AAS stuff.  Wow, you talk about memory, lol.  Yours and mine!  :D

 

 

[PeterPan]

Ooo, I remember your MTH thread!  I just hadn't connected the names.  Well I already mentioned to you that ADHD (it's no longer ADD) and dyslexia *used* to be lumped together as minimal brain dysfunction.  At this point she's old enough that if you go to a neuropsych with enough experience with dyslexia they are going to have NO trouble sorting it out.  Seriously.  They'll run the tests and sort it out for you.  

 

And who knows?  We're not psychs.  

 

It takes 1-4 months typically to get into a psych, so that's why I keep trying to toss out to you free things you can do in the meantime.  The Barton pretest we linked you to is free.  Getting WRTR or SWR from the library is free.  Inventorying what she can do cold with phonograms (written to sound, sound to written) is free.  Finding a reading comprehension test like in the McCall Crabbs or running the spelling diagnostic tests can be free.  Freed's book will be free from the library.

 

You're doing better than I did.  We didn't do ANY evals till she was 10 turning 11, and then we started with vision.  When VT didn't clear up everything we kept going, first to OT and finally the neuropsych.  We SHOULD have eval'd when she was your dd's age.  It's a mistake I DIDN'T repeat with my next kid, lol.  

 

You both deserve the right words for whatever is going on.  You're seeing a discrepancy between expected performance and achievement, and that's what leads the dc to know something is going on.  They know and then they put words on themselves.  Or you label it with things like lazy, just not trying, etc. Evals let you get past that and teach with more understanding.  It lets you change methodologies and bring in helpful (sometimes inexpensive!) therapies and changes that can make a big difference.

 

Well keep us posted on how it goes!   :)

[ElizabethB]

My stuff includes all those reasons why!

 

From the 7 pages of spelling rules, link #5 at the bottom of the how to tutor page (not to be memorized, just to understand why, although a few like ai/ay oi/oy are helpful for spelling to memorize)

 

Some short words with o and i will have a long sound, they used to have a silent e at the end of the word. This often happens when these o and i words have the letters l, t, or d in them.

wild child old told both post host kind find mind roll colt 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

sorry, double post

 

 

[pitterpatter]

Right...I knew that with the ADHD.

 

I really appreciate everything...from everyone. I was going to research the timeline on the eval. I figured it could take a while. We're rural, but I'm sure there are plenty of options in St. Louis. It's going to take me some time to figure it out and get an appointment made that I'm confident about. DH has some health issues that keep us on the run to various doctors, so I have to keep his appointments in mind. He'll be going with us and I don't want him tipping the boat at work with too many days off all at once. While I'm not overly concerned about testing costs, we're already paying into the health care system enough with DH's stuff that we can claim in on our taxes.

 

We finish up our third school block this week. I'll have a few days next week before DH has a few comp days off from working so much during the holidays that I can work with DD on some diagnostic tests.

 

I do want to do something in the meantime. I don't mind spending money on something quality, just not sure I'm ready to shell out for Barton yet. I need to read up some more, review my options and make a decision. While implementing whatever it is would be ideal when we start our fourth block week after next, I don't want to be rash about it and waste more time in the long run.

 

 

Ooo, I remember your MTH thread!  I just hadn't connected the names.  Well I already mentioned to you that ADHD (it's no longer ADD) and dyslexia *used* to be lumped together as minimal brain dysfunction.  At this point she's old enough that if you go to a neuropsych with enough experience with dyslexia they are going to have NO trouble sorting it out.  Seriously.  They'll run the tests and sort it out for you.  

 

And who knows?  We're not psychs.  

 

It takes 1-4 months typically to get into a psych, so that's why I keep trying to toss out to you free things you can do in the meantime.  The Barton pretest we linked you to is free.  Getting WRTR or SWR from the library is free.  Inventorying what she can do cold with phonograms (written to sound, sound to written) is free.  Finding a reading comprehension test like in the McCall Crabbs or running the spelling diagnostic tests can be free.  Freed's book will be free from the library.

 

You're doing better than I did.  We didn't do ANY evals till she was 10 turning 11, and then we started with vision.  When VT didn't clear up everything we kept going, first to OT and finally the neuropsych.  We SHOULD have eval'd when she was your dd's age.  It's a mistake I DIDN'T repeat with my next kid, lol.  

 

You both deserve the right words for whatever is going on.  You're seeing a discrepancy between expected performance and achievement, and that's what leads the dc to know something is going on.  They know and then they put words on themselves.  Or you label it with things like lazy, just not trying, etc. Evals let you get past that and teach with more understanding.  It lets you change methodologies and bring in helpful (sometimes inexpensive!) therapies and changes that can make a big difference.

 

Well keep us posted on how it goes!   :)

 

[ElizabethB]

 

PS - Perhaps I should look into a class action lawsuit for Hooked on Phonics since it doesn't really teach phonics!!  :cursing: I didn't realize what a poor program it was until we started AAS. Complete waste of time.

 

If you search through my posts, you will see I am not a big fan of HOP.  I caution fellow homeschool moms that just because something has phonics in its name and has a good advertising budget doesn't mean it teaches phonics well.

 

I have a post somewhere where I list the major programs and the percentage of remedial readers I get from each...

[pitterpatter]

Yes, your site seems very thorough. I read through a lot of it the other night. I need to go back and read more in depth. I can imagine how long it took you to put all of it together! And boy, Don Potter...talk about a lifetime of work!

 

 

My stuff includes all those reasons why!

 

From the 7 pages of spelling rules, link #5 at the bottom of the how to tutor page (not to be memorized, just to understand why, although a few like ai/ay oi/oy are helpful for spelling to memorize)

 

Some short words with o and i will have a long sound, they used to have a silent e at the end of the word. This often happens when these o and i words have the letters l, t, or d in them.

wild child old told both post host kind find mind roll colt 

 

 

[pitterpatter]

That would be interesting!!

 

If you search through my posts, you will see I am not a big fan of HOP.  I caution fellow homeschool moms that just because something has phonics in its name and has a good advertising budget doesn't mean it teaches phonics well.

 

I have a post somewhere where I list the major programs and the percentage of remedial readers I get from each...

 

[ElizabethB]

Yes, your site seems very thorough. I read through a lot of it the other night. I need to go back and read more in depth. I can imagine how long it took you to put all of it together! And boy, Don Potter...talk about a lifetime of work!

 

Between Don and I we have over 40 years of tutoring experience!  Also, we share e-mail and ideas so multiply our knowledge.

[pitterpatter]

It doesn't seem as though his site or blog has been updated since December 2013. I wonder whether something happened to him.

 

I can highly recommend Dr. Paul Cates to do testing. He works almost exclusively with homeschoolers; his evaluations include recommendations for instructional materials and methods and everything.

 

[ElizabethB]

I would hold off for a month before doing any testing, except perhaps a simple COVD vision screening. Those are the exact same mistakes made by 99% of my remedial students who are only suffering from incomplete phonics teaching and sight word and leveled reader induced guessing.

 

I have scores and mistakes from the MWIA from hundreds of students that follow that exact pattern, the younger ones all remediated quickly. The older ones took more time because they had more time establishing their guessing habits. I will find a few example mistakes and post them later.

[ElizabethB]

ALL of my remedial students substituted small words like a/the, than/that/then, for/from, and simple ending errors like dropping or adding s or ed or ing.

 

Here is one student who improved 3 grade levels after a month, errors on the MWIA before remediation:

 

Holistic words: 5 errors, later for after, all for call, heard for hear, stringing for string, tam for tame

 

Phonetic words: 15 errors, 2 self-corrects: mase for mass, frog for fog, most for moss, jib for jet, chenk for chink, menk for mink, sing for snag, lits for lifts, stripes for strip, ? for thaw, browl for brawl, stew for soot, fear for fir, coil for coo, loan for loin

 

There was also a slowdown of 62% on the MWIA.

 

Another student who improved a grade level, here are the errors, this slowdown was 30%:

 

Holistic 3 errors: broat for boat, drag for dark, thacks for thank

Phonetic 7 errors, 7 self-corrects: mat for met, hat for hot, beats for bulk, bust for dust, glows for gulps, poinds for ponds, brelt for belt

 

Another common error is squeal for squirrel although none I could find offhand had that error.  Deleting and adding l's and r's as in fog/frog is also a common error among my remedial students.  After a month of solid work with no outside reading and working through the things on my how to tutor page so they learn to sound out anything without guessing, most make solid progress of 1 to 2 grade levels and decrease their guessing.  Continued work with nonsense words is needed to completely suppress the guessing habit, although many K and 1st graders lose their guessing habit without need for continued nonsense word work.

 

Before I added nonsense words, it took much longer to decrease guessing.  Also, after I added in Webster's speller and multi-syllable work, the number of remedial students who finished tutoring reading above grade level increased greatly.  Stopping outside reading also shortened the time of remediation and decreased guessing.

 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

Also, most of my greatly students improve their reading speed in the long run...but it slows down in the short run, and in the short run you want to work on slowing down and reading with 100% accuracy.  As the phonics becomes automated and accurate, speed slowly builds and most end up reading both faster and more accurately, but you have to focus on accuracy, speed will come.  You are working on retraining the brain from looking at words as a whole to sounding out everything from L to R.

 

(Most of my students are slow readers as well as inaccurate readers, although I had one who read super fast with a super low accuracy rate, she was quick with her mistakes.  She took a lot of work to slow down, I think I had to work with a notched card and writing out words slow on a white board one letter at a time with her to get her to slow down, I don't recall, I worked with her 3 - 5 years ago.  She was impressive to watch, actually, LOL, she would throw out wrong words that didn't even always sound correct with zest and speed, and her silent reading was fast and inaccurate as well.)

[pitterpatter]

I'm pretty sure DD would test into AAR 3 (I'm going to see), so I *think* what we're going to do is boogie through AAR 3 and AAR 4 to fill in DD's (and my) phonogram gaps. Since DD's already familiar with the style and cadence of Marie Rippel's writing on the flash cards, I think this would be the most efficient. DD seems to like having those rules to follow when she comes to an unknown word and I think sticking with Rippel's cards will cut down on confusion. While using AAR, I'm really going to be sure she sounds out the words from left to right. I'm going to incorporate nonsense words as well and use a notched card with them.

 

Well shoot, ElizabethB, didn't you have a link to some nonsense words? I can't find it. If anyone else knows a good resource for nonsense words, please post. It would be nice to find a list organized by phonogram and/or is progressive.

 

After we fill in her gaps, I'm going to see where DD's at. At that point, we may run through 40L's program. We'll have the phonogram part filled in at that point, so we can really focus on any deficits created by use HOP and sight words.

 

I'm going to have DD complete the Miller assessment this week or early next to see where's she at with that. Would incorporating DIBELS testing at some point be beneficial?

 

I'm also going to schedule DD for a vision test and research evaluation options.

 

Does this sound like a decent plan? I'm going to drop DD's assigned historical fiction for now. I can't decide whether to go ahead and move forward with AAS or not. Might just need to see how long AAR will take each day. Doing that might be all we can stand with the tiles and such.

[ElizabethB]

My concentration game is what I use, it makes both nonsense and real words, linked at the end of my how to tutor page.

[pitterpatter]

I was thinking there was something else. Perhaps is was on another site I visited. I wanted to save concentration game for after AAR so it would be something new and fresh (and fun).

 

My concentration game is what I use, it makes both nonsense and real words, linked at the end of my how to tutor page.

 

[pitterpatter]

So, should I skip the readers for AAR since the point is to get through the phonograms quickly and focus on sounding out words left to right? There are plenty of phrases and sentences in the student book anyway, I think. Or, should I get them because they use controlled vocabulary? It might be interesting to see how much better she does reading them after reading through all of the prep work AAR provides for each story.

 

The last couple of weeks DD has been working through a literature study for The Stories Julian Tells. Today, she reread a segment (a couple of pages) of the story she read yesterday. (We've done this for every story...the guide calls it close reading.) She hardly skipped, changed or added any "a"s, "and"s or "the"s, which as I've mentioned is one of her biggest issues. What does this say? I know re-reading builds fluency, but if there was something major going on behind the scenes, shouldn't she still have made a lot of the same mistakes? Twice she let the story get away from her...she essentially quit reading and started paraphrasing/narrating. She also said "there" for "where" once. Other than that, she pretty well read it quickly without mistakes. Once, I thought she was going to make it through an entire page without any mistakes, but then she made one right at the end.

[LaughingCat]

From my experience, getting better when rereading does not show there is no problem.  

The reason they do it for fluency is the getting better is supposed to help the next time they encounter the same words in other reading.  

FWIW rereading was useless in improving my DD's general reading skills even though she would get hugely better over repeated rereads.

 

Also, I used to think the "the/a/and" and other small word confusion was a problem in it's own right (related to vision or tracking or something) because DD got to a point where she could get almost all the regular words and new words right and still have many small word flubs -- then ElizabethB pointed me to a reading program that uses nonsense words mixed in small words written as sentences (such as: The flarn mogs on the skart.) - and it became extremely clear that DD skips/changes small words when she is working hard to decode the other words.  It was not the small words causing the problem -  the brain power was used up on decoding and none was left for the small relatively less important words.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

I have a nonsense word question. Is there any rhyme or reason to them? Or they presented in any particular order?

 

I have always assumed nonsense words help a child learn when to use the proper vowel sounds with open and closed syllables. Am I correct or is there more to this?

[pitterpatter]

This is what I was thinking...that the first time through her brain either skips over them because it's working hard to decode more difficult/important words or she's actually reading them in her head, but her brain isn't "wasting" time/energy by sending a relay to her mouth to speak them. Perhaps the second time through, her brain realizes it doesn't need to work as hard because it's already read the more complex words before, so it is willing to expend energy on the small words too.

 

I'll be interested to see what the eye doctor has to say. Perhaps I really wasn't nuts about the eye-sticking issue.

 

From my experience, getting better when rereading does not show there is no problem.  

The reason they do it for fluency is the getting better is supposed to help the next time they encounter the same words in other reading.  

FWIW rereading was useless in improving my DD's general reading skills even though she would get hugely better over repeated rereads.

 

Also, I used to think the "the/a/and" and other small word confusion was a problem in it's own right (related to vision or tracking or something) because DD got to a point where she could get almost all the regular words and new words right and still have many small word flubs -- then ElizabethB pointed me to a reading program that uses nonsense words mixed in small words written as sentences (such as: The flarn mogs on the skart.) - and it became extremely clear that DD skips/changes small words when she is working hard to decode the other words.  It was not the small words causing the problem -  the brain power was used up on decoding and none was left for the small relatively less important words.

 

[1shortmomto4]

If you are going to use AAR then get the readers.  The little worksheet with all the lists of words to practice prior to reading is a great warmup but it is just a list of words.  There is usually a picture of something that is found in the story that you discuss and sometimes it is something unique and a child might not have been exposed to in the past.  We read a story today and the picture was of a Tuna and we talked about the size of one, etc.  The first part of the list are the words on the green cards to review.  Also, when doing AAR they do suggest that you have the student read aloud and you stop along the way to work on comprehension and other literature skills.  This allows for you to catch mistakes quickly before they are saved into "memory" as I like to say.  I spend one lesson period going over the phonics taught for the day and the following day we'll read from the reader.  I also require that they spend 30 minutes per day reading for fun and pleasure.

[pitterpatter]

Planning to give DD the Miler Word-Identification Assessment tomorrow, but I'm confused to why there are two "Vote" articles.

 

The instructions for administering the test state...

 

G. If the student read the Phonetic II list well, have him read the “Vote†article. Underline the 

mis-called or skipped words, and if possible indicate any substitutions or additions. Record time 

and errors where indicated.

 

There is a "Vote I" and a "Vote II". "Vote I" seems like it should go with the easier test, but I can't find that this is the case. Perhaps "Vote II" should only be read if "Vote I" was easily read? :confused1: 

 

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/mwia.pdf 

[ElizabethB]

I don't bother with the Vote stuff, just the MWIA I (page 6) and then the MWIA II (pages 7 and 8), I just give the first to those that struggle a lot with the MWIA I but a decent reader I will give both.  I give a few minute break between Holistic and Phonetic portions for the MWIA I and a 5 minute break between for the longer MWIA II.

 

I've never really understood the purpose of the Vote passages.

[LaughingCat]

I understood the 2 vote passages to be phonetic vs. holistic just like the word lists  - and for kids who possibly did well both word lists but still stumbled when reading.

[Pen]

If you are going to use AAR then get the readers. 

 

 

 

Didn't use AAR, but I agree with this in general: that readers that went along with our reading program were invaluable, a key part of reaching success.

[ElizabethB]

Didn't use AAR, but I agree with this in general: that readers that went along with our reading program were invaluable, a key part of reaching success.

I would save them for later...for someone guessing from context they will be better for later and something with word lists is a better fit until the phonics is over learned and the guessing has stopped. I have not seen AAR so I don't know how it is structured and the best way to use it in this case.

 

For example, Alphaphonics is fine as is for a normal student but the word families cause guessing for remedial students if you use it down the page, across the page works fine for most but the spacing is hard that way for some children, especially if they have a bit of an underlying vision problem.

[rachelpants]

I've been lurking on this thread (I have a "guesser" that I have been trying to re-train as well). I have a word of caution about the green word cards in AAR....don't use them as the program indicates if your DC is a guessing. I think they caused us more harm than good.

 

Also, you might want to check the scope and sequence of AAR. Long I and O before 2 consonants is taught in level 2.

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

 

:)

[rachelpants]

I've been lurking on this thread (I have a "guesser" that I have been trying to re-train as well). I have a word of caution about the green word cards in AAR....don't use them as the program indicates if your DC is a guessing. I think they caused us more harm than good.

 

Also, you might want to check the scope and sequence of AAR. Long I and O before 2 consonants is taught in level 2.

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

 

:)

[pitterpatter]

Ah, okay...that makes sense. I doubt we'll get to them anyway. I can't imagine DD reading the second lists fast enough to warrant the "Vote" articles. That's a lot of disconnected words to read. Makes my throat hurt just looking at them. LOL!

 

 

I understood the 2 vote passages to be phonetic vs. holistic just like the word lists  - and for kids who possibly did well both word lists but still stumbled when reading.

 

[pitterpatter]

Thanks! I've been going back-and-forth with the AAR samples...trying to figure the best way to use the program for our purpose. I need to make my final decision and get whatever ordered this weekend. Since I'll have to wait on shipping anyway, we're just going to keep plowing through AAS 2 at an accelerated pace and finish it up before starting AAR 3. I'm going to pick through the scope and sequence with a fine-tooth comb to be sure we don't miss anything. (The Find Gold rule was introduced in AAS 2 as well.) I did notice that Rippel labels a few things differently in AAR...I noticed a Bossy R for r-controlled syllables, for example. (DD has dubbed it Round-Up R in AAS. :p ) Surely, it won't be too confusing to jump in at level 3. I hope not anyway.

 

I do wonder about those green cards. They strike me as sight-wordish when used as flash cards. I thought about having DD use a notched card on them. And then, there's the leap cards. Don't know what to think about those.

 

I'm leaning toward not using the readers since I really want to accelerate through the program and work more on learning the rules and reading lists than worry about the stories and games. I've looked at the samples for the readers for both 3 and 4 and I don't think DD would have many difficulties reading them now in terms of vocabulary. And if the words are introduced within the AAR lessons, those difficulties would even be fewer. (I think the Webster resources will actually be more beneficial for DD since there are a lot more complicated/not-previously-read vocabulary in it.)

 

Interesting thing...to me anyway. I've been accelerating the last part of AAS 2. Where I used to take a week to cover a step, now we're taking 2-3 days. Her spelling is actually better...to the point of perfection or near perfection the second time she spells the list. She's happier too. Hmm.

 

 

I've been lurking on this thread (I have a "guesser" that I have been trying to re-train as well). I have a word of caution about the green word cards in AAR....don't use them as the program indicates if your DC is a guessing. I think they caused us more harm than good.

Also, you might want to check the scope and sequence of AAR. Long I and O before 2 consonants is taught in level 2.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

:)

 

[rachelpants]

OP.....You should join this yahoo group and poke around a bit....

lots of great advice about kids and guessing.

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Beginning-Reading-Instruction/info?referrer=AL_IDA

[Pen]

I would save them for later...for someone guessing from context they will be better for later and something with word lists is a better fit until the phonics is over learned and the guessing has stopped. I have not seen AAR so I don't know how it is structured and the best way to use it in this case.

 

For example, Alphaphonics is fine as is for a normal student but the word families cause guessing for remedial students if you use it down the page, across the page works fine for most but the spacing is hard that way for some children, especially if they have a bit of an underlying vision problem.

 

 

I don't know either AAR or Alphaphonics. For my ds, each time he had learned a type of phonics pattern, being able to the read many readers with that same pattern until it was fully mastered, automatic and fluent was key.

 

His second brick and m. school used word families and it caused guessing and looking at the ends of words (right to left)  instead of going left to right.

[pitterpatter]

Posting the results of DD's Miller test. The first part anyway. DD's misread words are in parentheses.

 

 

Holistic - 53 WPM, 2 Errors

 

here (there) - She has problems with these two all of the time (always has) and I'm pretty sure I know why...the way I taught these two sight words totally promoted guessing.  :banghead:

 

would (word)

 

 

Phonetic - 34 WPM, 8-10 Errors

 

Ben (bean, spell-corrected when we reviewed the ones she missed...actually she jumped the gun and read it correctly before she spelled it)

 

met (meet, spell-corrected...jumped the gun on this one too, read it correctly before spelling)

 

sip (slip, snip after spelling)

 

wig (wiggle, spell-corrected)

 

pass (past, spell-corrected)

 

tent (ten maybe? I was unsure what she said during the test. Either way, spell-corrected.)

 

bulk (bunk, blunk after spelling)

 

dust (dusk, dusk after spelling)

 

gulps (gloops, glumps after spelling)

 

ponds (Another possible proctor error here...couldn't decide whether she dropped the "s" or not, as she moved to he next word too quickly for me and I was still writing down the word she missed before it. Spell-corrected.)

 

 

Does anyone have a link to a similar test about the same length as the first part of Miller? DD slipped into frantic race mode the moment we started the phonetic section. I didn't get her calmed down until the middle of the second line. And then, I was unsure about two words she said. She obviously missed some, but I feel like we need to do it over. Then again, maybe it doesn't matter. I feel like she legitimately missed 4-5 and that's probably enough. 

[ElizabethB]

With those type of errors and that slow down, even if it is a few less words missed, there is a high likelihood of sight word induced guessing problem, which will be best corrected with word lists, nonsense words, and limiting reading of sentences and stories. Syllables also act as nonsense words at first because they are unfamiliar!

 

You could give do a short version of the MWIA II by giving the 1/2 or 1/3 of the words from each list of the the MWIA II, but pick every 3rd word, especially important for the phonetic portion, or every 3rd line, cut and paste into a new document (or every other word or every other line) because the last 1/3 of the phonetic words are harder than the first 2/3rds, so just stopping halfway will not give a good result.

[ElizabethB]

Those errors are similar errors to most of my remedial students, and most have a slowdown in the 30s, her slowdown was 36% if you run the numbers. Also, even 2 errors vs 4 errors would warrant phonics work, a good reader generally will not miss a single word on the MWIA, although if they are tired they may miss 1 word on each list.

 

Good readers generally read both lists at exactly the same WPM rate or within a few percentages. I had one child who was reading more than 6 grades above grade level who actually read the phonetic passage faster than the holistic passage on the MWIA II and read both lists without a single error.

[pitterpatter]

Thanks, ElizabethB. I was surprised by some she missed, not at all by others. She's always had a hard time with ul, for instance. And, those words don't get used very often in stories. It's crazy, I tell you. She wouldn't have missed most of those if they were woven into a good story. Context is tremendous.

 

So, most children's brains just naturally pick up phonics then...without explicit instruction? I know our public school is heavy into sight words and word families and they don't teach reading (as in how to read) past first grade. At that point, those students with the most noticeable issues are kicked to title (remedial reading). I have no idea what they do there. I find it fascinating most children are able to cope. Then again, I coped. I know DH and I are both sight readers...products of the same school system. I remember having a hard time in the early grades, though. Somehow it made sense to the school that I should go to speech class during reading instruction/phonics time (I didn't pronounce s and r correctly). Talk about a major disservice! I remember no true reading instruction past kindergarten.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, I do think most kids can pick up phonics naturally.   I certainly did.  I was reading long before I hit grade school and I was definitely in a sight word program not a phonics program at school but I read early, I read fast and I had no issues with comprehension.  I was good at reading out loud, no issues with skipping important words or decoding.  And no phonics instruction whatsoever.

 

But my kids did abysmally in a program like that.  So did DH and some of his siblings and some of his nephews.  Phonics didn't come naturally.  All very bright, many actually did do well in school overall, but I wouldn't consider any of them exceptional readers.  They read what they have to when they have to but they do not read out loud if they can avoid it and they mainly glean meaning from context as they skim the words they can easily decode.  I suspect they skip over quite a bit.  I know DH does. 

 

I remember being asked to step in and substitute teach at DDs school in her 1st grade class for an afternoon since the teacher had had an emergency and I knew all the students and the curriculum (I worked with DD quite closely after school even then because she seemed to have odd issues).  I agreed.  DD was my first child.  I really didn't know why she wasn't reading well, but I thought I must have been an outlier and that probably most kids took longer to learn to read then I had.  Being in that class was a bit of a shock.  With the exception of my daughter and one other student (classroom of 15), everyone was reading.  They were all reading pretty well.  And memorizing their spelling words quite easily.  There had been no phonics instruction, just sight words.  But when I brought it up with the teacher, she told me some kids take longer and suggest I enroll DD at Sylvan Learning Center for some extra practice.  (Total waste of money for us, but I know others have done well with Sylvan).  Even with such a disparity, no one could see that DD, and probably that other child, too, needed explicit, systematic phonics instruction.

[pitterpatter]

Amazing.

 

You know, I thought DD should have been reading more fluently after we finished HOP 2, but she was still pretty young and I just thought she hadn't built up her reading stamina yet. I almost, almost...was soooooooooooooooo very close to starting over and going through Phonics Pathways with her. (I had discovered the WTM and this board by then.) I was feeling a bit insecure about having used HOP. But, after reading, reading, reading through the K-8 board, I decided to let her "just read" and practice that way. Ugh. So, that's twice I boo-booed up!!

 

I'm curious to where all of the other "normal-reading" kids who didn't receive explicit phonics instruction end up. I assume many stall out when words get more complex than three-four syllables...when the patterns aren't as easy to decode. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so much talk of poor test scores and low literacy levels. So, these kids naturally pick it...but most only to a point? It baffles me to why reading instruction would cease after first grade. (My sister, a second grade teacher, admits she doesn't know how to teach reading. As far as I know, it was not taught to her during college.) At that point, doesn't instruction more or less switch over to vocabulary-building, without the added value of teaching how to actually decode longer, more complex words?

 

 

Yes, I do think most kids can pick up phonics naturally.   I certainly did.  I was reading long before I hit grade school and I was definitely in a sight word program not a phonics program at school but I read early, I read fast and I had no issues with comprehension.  I was good at reading out loud, no issues with skipping important words or decoding.  And no phonics instruction whatsoever.

 

But my kids did abysmally in a program like that.  So did DH and some of his siblings and some of his nephews.  Phonics didn't come naturally.  All very bright, many actually did do well in school overall, but I wouldn't consider any of them exceptional readers.  They read what they have to when they have to but they do not read out loud if they can avoid it and they mainly glean meaning from context as they skim the words they can easily decode.  I suspect they skip over quite a bit.  I know DH does. 

 

I remember being asked to step in and substitute teach at DDs school in her 1st grade class for an afternoon since the teacher had had an emergency and I knew all the students and the curriculum (I worked with DD quite closely after school even then because she seemed to have odd issues).  I agreed.  DD was my first child.  I really didn't know why she wasn't reading well, but I thought I must have been an outlier and that probably most kids took longer to learn to read then I had.  Being in that class was a bit of a shock.  With the exception of my daughter and one other student (classroom of 15), everyone was reading.  They were all reading pretty well.  And memorizing their spelling words quite easily.  There had been no phonics instruction, just sight words.  But when I brought it up with the teacher, she told me some kids take longer and suggest I enroll DD at Sylvan Learning Center for some extra practice.  (Total waste of money for us, but I know others have done well with Sylvan).  Even with such a disparity, no one could see that DD, and probably that other child, too, needed explicit, systematic phonics instruction.

 

[pitterpatter]

Updating a little here. It's been about a month since we started remediating with AAR 3. Here's what I've noticed. DD's fluency/accuracy is dramatically better when using a notched card. She only misses words that have phonograms that are problematic for her (certain letter combos). She might have problems with 1-4 words per lesson maybe. These are words from the massive words/phrases/sentences lists, not the green card words. When she reads AAR sentences with me moving the notched card across the sentence as she reads, she doesn't add/delete/change any words. She rarely misses suffixes too and that's usually because I didn't move the card quickly enough...she self-corrects. Although I have eliminated all other assigned book reading for the time being, she does still read some of the her math word problems and a couple of sentences during grammar. During grammar, I underscore the sentence with a note card. During math, she usually reads without any sort of aid. She still skips/changes/adds words in those few math and grammar sentences that she might read each day.

 

I had such high hopes after seeing how well she does with a notched card, but I really think that without it she would be back to skipping/changing/adding the little words. Overall, I can see improvements, she's decoding better...she's starting from the left and continuing all of the way through to the end of the word (most of the time). It's difficult to tell exactly how much better she's doing since her unaided reading is so limited right now.

 

Here's my question. Can people with dyslexia read accurately without aids...even if that aid is just his/her finger? DD hates reading with her finger because it slows her down. I don't blame her...I can't stand reading with mine either. I'm anxious to try colored overlays and guide strips, but haven't attempted it yet since she's not reading anything beyond individual sentences. Recently, she learned she can changed her Kindle to white text on a black background. I asked her how she can stand to look at that since it hurts my eyes. Even though shes not reading the text (her Kindle is via text-to-speech), she says she likes it better. I haven't had her sit down and read anything with it that way, so I don't honestly know if it's a true help to her. Trying to envision what reading for her in the future might look like.

[PeterPan]

Remind us, you had her vision checked by a developmental optometrist?  You sure seem to be describing vision problems.  COVD is where you find them.

[OneStepAtATime]

Updating a little here. It's been about a month since we started remediating with AAR 3. Here's what I've noticed. DD's fluency/accuracy is dramatically better when using a notched card. She only misses words that have phonograms that are problematic for her (certain letter combos). She might have problems with 1-4 words per lesson maybe. These are words from the massive words/phrases/sentences lists, not the green card words. When she reads AAR sentences with me moving the notched card across the sentence as she reads, she doesn't add/delete/change any words. She rarely misses suffixes too and that's usually because I didn't move the card quickly enough...she self-corrects. Although I have eliminated all other assigned book reading for the time being, she does still read some of the her math word problems and a couple of sentences during grammar. During grammar, I underscore the sentence with a note card. During math, she usually reads without any sort of aid. She still skips/changes/adds words in those few math and grammar sentences that she might read each day.

 

I had such high hopes after seeing how well she does with a notched card, but I really think that without it she would be back to skipping/changing/adding the little words. Overall, I can see improvements, she's decoding better...she's starting from the left and continuing all of the way through to the end of the word (most of the time). It's difficult to tell exactly how much better she's doing since her unaided reading is so limited right now.

 

Here's my question. Can people with dyslexia read accurately without aids...even if that aid is just his/her finger? DD hates reading with her finger because it slows her down. I don't blame her...I can't stand reading with mine either. I'm anxious to try colored overlays and guide strips, but haven't attempted it yet since she's not reading anything beyond individual sentences. Recently, she learned she can changed her Kindle to white text on a black background. I asked her how she can stand to look at that since it hurts my eyes. Even though shes not reading the text (her Kindle is via text-to-speech), she says she likes it better. I haven't had her sit down and read anything with it that way, so I don't honestly know if it's a true help to her. Trying to envision what reading for her in the future might look like.

Thanks for the update!  As for your question, yes they can but it depends on other factors as well, such as if there are developmental vision issues, as OhE mentioned.

 

DD is now reading quite well without even her finger but she does a lot better with big print and not much clutter.  She prefers text that is not full of lots of side bars, either.  It confuses her.  But it took a bit to get to reading without any of the physical aids that Barton provides in our Barton Reading and Spelling program.

 

DS, because he has developmental vision issues that have only partly been addressed with VT, tends to skip lines sometimes, or skip words.  He does better with a card underneath the line he is reading or using the Barton card that isolates one word at a time.

 

DH is dyslexic.  He reads trade magazines all the time.  He doesn't use anything to aid him.

[pitterpatter]

Not yet. This is the first year we've paid for vision insurance. We waited and waited for cards, but I guess they don't issue them. And, we haven't been able to get into our insurance site the last couple of times DH tried. Of course, he didn't bookmark the portal and I keep forgetting to ask the few hours he's actually here in the evenings. Just wrote a reminder on my Boogie Board. I'm itching to get this done...think about it all day long on the days DH isn't here. Aargh.

 

ETA: AAR text is a good deal larger and more separated that typical book text...larger than her math and grammar texts for sure.

 

Remind us, you had her vision checked by a developmental optometrist?  You sure seem to be describing vision problems.  COVD is where you find them.

 

[Lecka]

My son never did well when he had to hold a notched card or follow along with his finger, himself.  It made things a lot harder for him.  It was one extra thing for him to deal with, try to manipulate, get frustrated with as it stuck or turned sideways, etc.  

 

It seemed he had to concentrate on his finger as he tried to move it.  

 

How it worked out for him:  either I was sitting with him and could point if he lost his place and he read out loud;  he was reading things that had wide margins and larger font ----- he did well with certain storybooks and with non-fiction books where he could read a caption -- for him, captions would be easy to read a lot of the time.  He also did well with some comics, but only ones with larger print -- like, Garfield has fairly large, bold, block-face letters.  A lot of comics had too small, light, close-together writing for him.  

 

At this time, he was reading decently well and had been through a lot of remediation, and he could read most/almost all words that would be in Magic Tree House.  He could read maybe a page, maybe less of Magic Tree House and would just be shutting down, he could not do any more.  But he was reading higher than that level when it was in a caption.  This was probably partly b/c it was shorter, partly b/c he did have a picture to give him confidence that he was reading correctly (not the kind of thing with huge picture clues, but just the confidence he read something correctly), he was having trouble keeping track of dialogue for a while so non-fiction could be easier and more straightforward for him, the vocabulary words would repeat..... all these things I think were part of it.

 

But we also found out he had a tracking problem.  I took him to OT and VT evals after finding out about it from an OT eval at school (I afterschool).  The OT there recommended we rule out things treatable by VT.  When we took him to VT, he told us he could try, but it was something that OT could also try, and he could not say which one would be better/faster results.  He had other issues for OT, it seemed more child-friendly, it was easier to get to, and insurance paid for OT.  So he started with OT.  His OT said if he did not make progress with OT for that issue (eyes tracking, jumping at the midline) then she would tell me and I could take him to VT.  She told me he wasn't making much progress, and gave me a name for another VT a longer drive away, but she said he was better with difficultish kids (not that he is difficult, he is just not a dream child who is totally compliant and has a sky-high frustration tolerance and needs no breaks or encouragement).  I made the appointment.  Then he kept going to OT, and about a week before the appointment, the OT told me had suddenly made some progress with her after all (we had given him two months in the beginning, so it was more like it took 3 months).  

 

Then he was able to read Magic Tree House for a page, without shutting down, but like -- "mom, you read now," but after I read a page, then he could read a page, and do that for 3 pages.  That happened very quickly.  Then it took some months and he could read for 10 minutes at a time, and now he can read 30 minutes.  

 

He had done a ton of reading remediation before we found out about his OT stuff.  (Edit -- to be clear, he needed the reading remediation, too ---- it was not something where OT for tracking was all he needed -- he was having trouble with more than one piece of the puzzle.)  

 

Edit:  I want to add, he seemed very slow to me to develop fluency.  We spent about a year on fluency.  I read a book from the library about fluency, I read about fluency on readingrockets.org, I looked into Great Leaps (a fluency program -- it looked good, but I didn't do it), I looked into oneminutereader (looked good, I didn't do it either -- but I would have done it if I had spent money).  I decided not to do anything timed b/c my son had a bad experience with timed math facts in school and it made him hate anything timed.  But I did a lot of pre-reading and pre-viewing, tried to have him do repeated reading, etc.  He also was working on fluency at school.  It was just a very slow process.  Even after he was able to read a page in Magic Tree House ----- he still had to keep track of what was happening in the book, and that was a transition for him, too.  He could read but still need help to keep up with the book -- though I think that is normal.

 

He does read well now.  He does also still do better with the more straight-forward plots and a little less descriptive language, so there are books at "lower" reading levels that can be harder for him.  I am reading Nicholas St. North and the Battle of the Nightmare King to him right now, and it is Lexile level in the 500s I think (we picked it at the library with the librarian), and his Lexile level is higher than that, and he reads books that have a higher Lexile level..... but this book is one he listens to great, but I don't think he would do well reading it to himself.  Wings of Fury he does great with.  

[Arcadia]

Not yet. This is the first year we've paid for vision insurance. We waited and waited for cards, but I guess they don't issue them. And, we haven't been able to get into our insurance site the last couple of times DH tried.

Is yours VSP? We don't get the cards for the VSP under hubby's employee plan. There is a number to call and calling the insurance helpline was easier than navigating the website. The hotline do need the SSN for telling us how much it might cost as plans differ.