JDoe Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Just a minor suggestion to rename board "Polyglot Education Board", since Bilingual implies only two languages are being used, while Polyglot would be a bit more inclusive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Ooooh... New word. :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YsgolYGair Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Indeed. Three here. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The board started out for people who were educating in two languages, not just speaking them in the home. If you are actually teaching subjects in more than two languages, good on you and I'll just go sit in a corner until my brain stops boggling. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 For example, French Canadians on here have done half (ish) of their subjects in English and half in French. People in Switzerland are obliged to teach in their national languages a certain amount of time, and more than just as a second language subject. (Possibly not true. I could be remembering wrongly, but it's still a useful example to what I meant.) In some places one can earn a bilingual high school diploma. I'm not saying that "just conversation" is worthless or not educational, but there's a heck of a difference between dd and I studying Auslan and Arabic as languages and us studying history or maths using materials created in those languages. (We can do the first and will never be able to do the second. :p ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Maths materials are the easiest to do bilingually in my opinion because the underlying logic is universal! I mean provided you already know the math. My daughters do math in their second languages but heck if I can do that. This will prove to be a fascinating discussion. Would we be multi-lingual education if we are doing math in two languages with each kid, but two different languages? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Whether it is relevant depends on one's goals. Before I got rusty, I was considered fluent in Auslan. That isn't enough to be an interpreter. Achieving a bilingual diploma requires certain academic work. Back when Ester Maria was on the boards and some of the other multilingual mums with teens, they recommended getting official certification to prove you know what you know. Formal academic work also obliges one to learn academic language one might not get around to in regular conversation. Some of the people in my linguistics classes said they knew 4 or 5 languages properly and the others at "nanny level." (Pass the salt, yes I have brushed my teeth, what's for dinner? ) Perhaps it depends on where you live too. Most of us on this forum live in lands where one must have a bachelor's degree to be a receptionist. :rolleyes: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I do see a difference between speaking a language and doing schoolwork in that language. For the sake of learning a language immersion works and is in itself education. But there is a difference in actually using a language for instruction, and I think that is what the bilingual board was originally set up to facilitate. I too have a hard time imagining doing regular instruction in more than two languages, and can't think of any brick and mortar schools where such is done although I know of many schools where instruction is bilingual and multiple other languages are spoken and taught. I think more than two instructional languages would be very complex to work with, especially for one teacher! I'm curious to know if anyone has experienced such a learning environment and if they perceive a benefit above and beyond regular language immersion (i.e. would a child who is already using French and English in multiple subjects benefit further from studying history and math in Chinese as opposed to spending the same amount of time just speaking Chinese?) It does seem there could be an efficiency factor--if it would be difficult to find time for Chinese otherwise than making the study of one or two other subjects Chinese time could help fit it in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I agree with you. I am just uncovering that what I'm doing is classical-ish and unschooling-ish. This is uncomfortable because that is not how I have viewed what we do. :) My kids did manage to acquire four languages (three and a half, actually, so far, but the fourth is going really well), but apparently I am not a multilingual educator because all our actual textbooks are in English (not my primary language by the way, and in no way would I say that most learning happens during the time textbooks are open). Your kids are small. The others raising multilingual kids I used to listen to on here had teens. Most people educate their teens in a more formal manner than their littlies, simply because that is the time to focus on the prerequisites for whatever exams or qualifications they want. For bilingual diplomas, there is certain content that must be covered, just like there is if you attend a government school. Outside of those programs, we can read any books we like with our kids. Inside those programs, you must read this, this and this even if they are the least interesting examples of an author's work, kwim? It'd be interesting to have this conversation again in 7 years time when you're closer to deciding what pieces of paper your kids will need! :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 The board started out for people who were educating in two languages, not just speaking them in the home. If you are actually teaching subjects in more than two languages, good on you and I'll just go sit in a corner until my brain stops boggling. Thanks for the clarification, and noting the distinction between language of instruction (source language) and target subject (language), indeed I had not given that much thought. Hmm what happens when you start studying Ovid in Latin or the Iliad in Greek, do we get two more languages of instruction? Currently juggling about 8 languages, but only 3 are currently language of instruction (of which 2 are both source and target). Now that you mention it I probably should try to get some instruction material in 3 other languages (earlier languages of instruction) that are not now being used sufficiently, to maintain fluency. Thank you for the (unintended) tip. "Multilingual" would work too :). Indeed, better than polyglot. Why didn't I think of that? :confused1: I'm curious to know if anyone has experienced such a learning environment and if they perceive a benefit above and beyond regular language immersion (i.e. would a child who is already using French and English in multiple subjects benefit further from studying history and math in Chinese as opposed to spending the same amount of time just speaking Chinese?) It does seem there could be an efficiency factor--if it would be difficult to find time for Chinese otherwise than making the study of one or two other subjects Chinese time could help fit it in. Well once you already have achieved fluency in a language, it would seem somewhat pointless to continue studying the language per se (I know probably get all those still teaching English to kids already fluent in the language on my neck for that, but is it really English you are teaching, or something else?). Maintenance of fluency does however require continued use, and there I could certainly see a good fit in using the language for some subject(s) even if this is not the only avenue to ensure maintenance. (If language is not used it will start to decay slowly, in my experience after about 4-6 months although that varies). However, there is also the added question of what makes one an educated speaker of that language. I am a native speaker of Russian. The level of conversation I can have with someone who is Russian is much lower than the level of conversation I can have with an English speaker. I can converse with an English speaking scientist, mathematician, economist or philosopher on a topic in their field and be fairly confident of holding my own. I might not be able to understand the technical details but if my biology PhD friend was describing his latest research to me in his own jargon, I could follow along fairly well. I would not be able to do so in a conversation with a Russian biology PhD even if he "dumbed" down what he was saying. The reason is that I never studied any content subject in Russian past primary school (well maths, but definitely not college maths - I could follow a basic geometry proof in Russian, I think, but nothing more than that). It is mortifying to me every time our priest from Russia visits us because I can not converse on theology in Russian, we discuss the state of the Russian Church in English. My older siblings who went through high school in Russian and college/grad school in English and who continued reading on a wide variety of subjects in both languages can converse equally well in English or Russian on pretty much any subject. ... I'm sorry, I've been rambling. I hope at least some of this makes sense. Very interesting point you touch on there. I believe what you are sensing it the result of having different stock of vocabulary in the different languages, this is particularly noticeable in technical areas and one will even observe it in ones own main language. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 MEP maths has some of their work translated into other languages, Spanish, for one. It was translated from Hungarian so that has to be floating around on the web somewhere. This is no help if Spanish is not one of your languages, or your kids are over grade 4 maths. :p 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Thanks for the tip, yes Spanish is one of the languages that I would like to have some material in, but 4th grade passed by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 I find the pieces of paper rather uninteresting, what I seek is fluency/understanding itself, not any pieces of paper. Naturally this will change somewhat as university entrance time approaches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I know of a family that the mom spoke English and the dad spoke French. The boy went to kindergartner when he was of age. Turns out he was lacking in his French vocabulary. He had large gaps for basically any words his Dad never used. This was a long time ago and it was a traditional family. So the boy didn't know words for, "broom, sweep, pot, stove, dishwasher, bath ..." I suppose the difference is in the quality of the language spoken. The boy knew how to speak properly but his vocabulary was just very small compared to other children raised in a totally french speaking home, or a home where he would have been exposed to more then just general conversation by one adult. He had some catching up to do before he could be educated in French along with his peers. Yes--I've never seen this play out differently except with exceptionally motivated and well-immersed kids. In addition, there is the simple physical fact that a person learning in two languages will spend half as much time learning in each language, as an equally-well-educated person educated in a monolingual environment. When you get to four languages, if you are doing language instruction on top of curriculum, that is a lot of work. If, on the other hand, you divide up the subjects so that each language gets, say, one subject matter area (math, science, history, literature and arts) then you will not get that cross-disciplinary language exposure that a mono-lingual person gets. I am not suggesting that that is a bad idea. However, it is a trade-off. I view it as a positive one, within limits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 In addition, there is the simple physical fact that a person learning in two languages will spend half as much time learning in each language, as an equally-well-educated person educated in a monolingual environment. When you get to four languages, if you are doing language instruction on top of curriculum, that is a lot of work. If, on the other hand, you divide up the subjects so that each language gets, say, one subject matter area (math, science, history, literature and arts) then you will not get that cross-disciplinary language exposure that a mono-lingual person gets. Indeed this situation is relatively common in that one will develop a somewhat asymmetrical stock of vocabulary, but then again a mono-lingual person that, say study Latin, will also have/develop an asymmetrical vocabulary. I am uncertain about the extent to which you believe this may be creating a problem, or what the supposed benefits of "cross-disciplinary language exposure" are? Maybe there is an issue/aspect apart from vocabulary that I am missing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Indeed this situation is relatively common in that one will develop a somewhat asymmetrical stock of vocabulary, but then again a mono-lingual person that, say study Latin, will also have/develop an asymmetrical vocabulary. I am uncertain about the extent to which you believe this may be creating a problem, or what the supposed benefits of "cross-disciplinary language exposure" are? Maybe there is an issue/aspect apart from vocabulary that I am missing? I think "problem" is really the wrong word. There is something about having exposure to an English word in chemistry, biology, English literature, and everyday speech. It can be used different ways. You get a more multi-dimensional view of each English word. Whereas a child with a truly multi-lingual education (presumably to some extent divided between subjects, because come on... are you really going to teach chemistry four times? I have lived around the world and I've never seen that done with mutli-lingual kids, sorry)--they get more words, but each word has fewer dimensions. The brain only has so much space. We might under-use that space but assuming a child has a full education, their brain is indeed making storage and functionality trade-offs in terms of which words to use when. That said I know my ex-husband used to translate between three languages regarding water engineering projects. He had a really interesting job at the time. However, he was born into a trilingual environment and added another (English) which was easier than the other three, later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I think "problem" is really the wrong word. There is something about having exposure to an English word in chemistry, biology, English literature, and everyday speech. It can be used different ways. You get a more multi-dimensional view of each English word. Whereas a child with a truly multi-lingual education (presumably to some extent divided between subjects, because come on... are you really going to teach chemistry four times? I have lived around the world and I've never seen that done with mutli-lingual kids, sorry)--they get more words, but each word has fewer dimensions. I agree that "problem" is wrong word here. After your post it DID cross my mind to run a rotation on languages of instruction, but except for maybe math and communication (Language arts), it does not seem very easy to run operationally, since as you point out who wants to teach chemistry 4 times, or rather put together 4 levels of chemistry in 4 different languages? Still I do not quite grasp what you mean by "each word has fewer dimensions" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Still I do not quite grasp what you mean by "each word has fewer dimensions" Take the word "figure". You can either think of it as many words, homonyms, which all come from one root, or you could consider it one multi-dimensional word. This is just semantics. The point is, I can connect, in my mind, the idea of a figure as a woman's body shape as it relates to physical attractiveness (she had a nice figure), the physical presence of a person (a dark figure in the corner), a quantity of something (can we get a figure for that last statement--like how much more?), a representation of something (this statue is a really lovely figure) and so on. When you have many languages, they often get siloed. In my experience in post-colonial countries, there was an interesting evolution. The business and power vocabularies are of those in power. So in the former Soviet Republics, for example, there would have been many dialects. But the language of power was, pre-Russia, the language of the previous empire (Turkish, Persian, French, etc.). But then you had Russian superimposed over that and Russian itself is full of abstract words from French and German, their trading partners. And then in the new regime--capitalism with changing alliances--you had English abstract words taking the place of Russian words. So for example whereas Persian has a perfectly good word for workers, you would find some political discussions of this using the Russian word, and later the Russified word that Germans applied to Russian guest workers ("gastarbeiteri"). The Persian word for worker retained its association with the idea of a worker you'd have in your home, the Russian word for worker retained its communist sense, like Workers of the World Unite!, and the German word for worker had this sense of someone who was oppressed and a migrant. Like we have in English, laborer and worker. Each have different connotations. Work is the English word. It is the word that we use (I would say) for both the simple sense of a worker, the person who works in your home, but also "the working man". Laborer seems to refer to another. Nobody would say, "I have laborers in my home." This is all really complex when you start parsing it out because language is, after all, a biological phenomenon that is continually evolving among 7 billion + speakers. Please don't take anything I write about one word as my final opinion--these are all cursory examples for illustration. I could be wrong about all the specifics. That just highlights the complexity of the issue. It's just that you don't get that view when you use one language for your home language, and another language for your political science studies. You don't see how language changes like across fields, that unless you study the language or you operate in that language across disciplines. However, you do see how "work" is used differently in different languages. For example in French you would never say, "Est-ce que ce jour travaille pour vous?" That sounds like you're asking if that day is literally is doing day labor for someone. You would ask, "est-ce que ca marche?" But that doesn't translate to walking. This type of figurative use of words is part of the multidimensionality of their use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renai Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The board started out for people who were educating in two languages, not just speaking them in the home. If you are actually teaching subjects in more than two languages, good on you and I'll just go sit in a corner until my brain stops boggling. This brought back memories: Mama Lynx, CleoQC, AEinMD...I was just looking for an old document on my pc and came across a series of posts I had saved back from the old boards (I think) from 2005. There's gold in dem dere posts- how to balance the subjects in different languages, resources, etc.I may need to do some Throwback Thursdays and re-post a few. Anyway, interesting thread ya'll got going here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Take the word "figure". You can either think of it as many words, homonyms, which all come from one root, or you could consider it one multi-dimensional word. This is just semantics. The point is, I can connect, in my mind, the idea of a figure as a woman's body shape as it relates to physical attractiveness (she had a nice figure), the physical presence of a person (a dark figure in the corner), a quantity of something (can we get a figure for that last statement--like how much more?), a representation of something (this statue is a really lovely figure) and so on. OK, now I understand what you mean by multidimensionality. In logic it is referred to as term, that it a term is a word used with ONE specific meaning (while the word itself may have many meanings, ie imply many terms) When I mentioned asymmetrical vocabulary earlier I am referring to terms (word-meanings), and this is in my view impossible to avoid, indeed I am uncertain if it even should be considered a concern, as I cannot manage to see the drawbacks of thinking better (ie having more terms) about say Ovid's works in Latin, Business in French and Math in English, it would obviously mean that your discussion of Ovid with someone that only knows English will be a little more difficult, or that when you go to business school in the US you will need to learn the equivalent English words for the French terms you have in your vocabulary. I would though point out that I believe the total stock of concepts is unlikely to be negatively affected by multilingual education, and I suspect that once basic fluency is achieved in a language, the learning of new terms (for known concepts) in that language should be relatively fast, if required. Illustration> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 I stand corrected on my Serbian :lol: I will let the mistake stay in the illustration in order for your comment to be understood, but will correct in my material. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Thanks "Ker" it is. Oh, the dangers of using google translate :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Do you think the Albanian "qen" ("q" is pronounced "ch" in Albanian) is related to the French "chien"? Here are the words for dog in various Indo-European languages, you can see relationships. French chien derives from Latin canis. Albanian is not closely related to other modern Indo-European languages (or to Latin) but of course ultimately derives from the same proto-Indo-European word, here reconstructed as kwo. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1w%E1%B9%93 This article gives a proposed history of the Albanian language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language Because bunny trails are fun... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I am intrigued with the concept of bilingual education in the sense of instruction in the second language. Mainly, this is due to my son being young and just now getting to the point he has the confidence to pursue the issue. My son has reached the point where he can read at about the third grade level in Spanish. His writing has also now caught up to the place where it is about there as well. However, he is in 5th grade in English. If he does math in Spanish, reading comprehension and writing in Spanish, and literature in Spanish does it matter that the grade level is still lower? Would this be considered bilingual education? The goal is to steadily increase the Spanish portion until he is much more at typical level and not two years behind his English grade level. We are hoping to get there by high school. Is there anyway this could backfire or be doing a disservice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I guess it is bilingual education if he's reading and writing the sort of things Spanish speaking kids read and write in grade three. It'd be a bit cheeky to say he has year 12 level Spanish if he's still two years behind and really has year 10 level Spanish. As for whether it could backfire or be doing a disservice, I think that is one of those parenting things you only find out if you were wrong about later, if it goes wrong. :laugh: Anyway, if we didn't have language disorders here, that's what I'd be trying to do, so I think you're a cool person even if he stays two years behind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I guess it is bilingual education if he's reading and writing the sort of things Spanish speaking kids read and write in grade three. It'd be a bit cheeky to say he has year 12 level Spanish if he's still two years behind and really has year 10 level Spanish. As for whether it could backfire or be doing a disservice, I think that is one of those parenting things you only find out if you were wrong about later, if it goes wrong. :laugh: Anyway, if we didn't have language disorders here, that's what I'd be trying to do, so I think you're a cool person even if he stays two years behind! I figured it was something like that. There is no way he is at his academic grade level in Spanish. He doesn't suck at it, but he isn't there. At this point his perfectionism gets in the way. I'm hoping with more confidence it will help him jump ahead a bit. It was not as much because I cared about the designation, but more just wanting to be clear on the term. I do not want to misrepresent what we are doing. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 I am intrigued with the concept of bilingual education in the sense of instruction in the second language. Mainly, this is due to my son being young and just now getting to the point he has the confidence to pursue the issue. My son has reached the point where he can read at about the third grade level in Spanish. His writing has also now caught up to the place where it is about there as well. However, he is in 5th grade in English. If he does math in Spanish, reading comprehension and writing in Spanish, and literature in Spanish does it matter that the grade level is still lower? Would this be considered bilingual education? The goal is to steadily increase the Spanish portion until he is much more at typical level and not two years behind his English grade level. We are hoping to get there by high school. Is there anyway this could backfire or be doing a disservice? Would probably do math in whichever language you can get the best instruction material you could get and use (which in my situation would be English). When it comes to literature I would suggest that you read in whatever language the author used. That is, it seems to me a little strange to be reading Cervantes in English or Shakespeare in Spanish if you are able to use both languages. It is inevitable that some things are lost in translation, no matter how good the translator. Naturally if one wants to read Homer but does not know greek one does not have much of an alternative (... but to learn greek :crying: ) History may also benefit from a somewhat dual approach as the view on events like the Alamo probably will be different in the US and Mexico. Reading how the events are portrayed in US books and Mexican books I suspect will be very interesting and illuminating. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I read through this whole thread but I don't want to go back to quote or find out who said what. Please forgive my laziness. If you just want to be able to have basic conversation, it's fairly "easy" to become fluent in two or more languages. Where it gets trickier are the technical terms as someone pointed out upthread. It is the technical terms used in chemistry for example that are on vocabulary lists even if you are learning the subject in your native (or first) language. I agree with the person who said to use the target language to approximate what you want to say. Way way back in the day, I did an internship in a Japanese hospital. This internship included classes and seminars given, of course, in Japanese. There were some funny exchanges at times where I knew the concepts and technical terms in English but not in Japanese. So I would say, "the organ that filters waste out of your blood" and someone would say "kidney" (in Japanese) and I would file away that word to use the next time (though it usually helped to jot it down ;) ) And so I learned the technical terms needed for the context. I heard somewhere that true fluency assumes that you can think in that language, instead of thinking of the sentence or words in your main language and then translating it in your head. During that same internship I would come home after thinking in Japanese for 9 or 10 hours straight and would not be able to speak English very well for about twenty minutes until I had become acclimated to thinking again in English. I am truly bilingual in that I learned to speak two languages from infancy and progressed through baby talk in both. I was always about six months behind my peers in Japanese though and English definitely was stronger. I unfortunately rarely get to speak Japanese now and it takes me a few moments to get up to speed. I cover up my lack of initial fluency by sticking to small talk at first! I never was fluent in Japanese reading and writing though I did use Japanese reading textbooks through the sixth grade. That requires a lot more daily practice though even today I can see a Chinese character (Japanese kanji) and think "that is something to do with a horse" from recognizing a character here or there! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I heard somewhere that true fluency assumes that you can think in that language, instead of thinking of the sentence or words in your main language and then translating it in your head. I agree, however even in such cases your stock of active vocabulary will differ between languages. As a consequence one often mix languages if the receiver can reasonably be expected to know the word in a second language. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I remember a situation when my dad came into the teacher's lounge at the high school where he used to teach (here in the States) and the other teachers were discussing some word that they couldn't understand. It was a common word, but it was being used in an unfamiliar context and they couldn't figure out its meaning. My dad, not in the least bit a native English speaker, pointed out to them that that particular word had something like twenty different definitions. He had picked that up from simply reading the dictionary before he had to take the GRE to get into a US grad school. Even as native speakers they were limited in how they could use the English language because of the lack of multi-dimensionality. That, methinks is an issue of lack of education, not lack of fluency. I don't think it's lack of either. I just think it's a vocabulary trade-off. Nobody knows every definition or dimension of every word and even when we have an idea we make mistakes! When I talk about multilingual education I'm not suggesting a lack of fluency but a trade-off in overall vocabulary exposure that would lead to a less robust map for certain words. But you make up for that perhaps in a different part of the map, the map of language to language which is pretty incredible and which gives you conceptual insights you don't get within a language. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree, however even in such cases your stock of active vocabulary will differ between languages. As a consequence one often mix languages if the receiver can reasonably be expected to know the word in a second language. It's not just a matter of a gap in vocabulary acquisition, though it can be that especially in the case of concrete nouns. It can be a matter of the word or phrase in one language having a depth of connotation that just isn't present anywhere in another language. That's why certain phrases or words are often used in Japanese even if I'm talking to a bilingual friend in English. We know that there is no real equivalent for that concept in English unless you use a lot of words to explain it. So we just use the Japanese terms. That's why some of these words are coming into the English language even now. So words like unami pop up on the WTM board by foodies who as far as I know, are not Japanese speakers. Conversely, there are words in English that are difficult to express in Japanese. It is really hard to say "I love you" to a child in Japanese. Of course parents feel love for their children but there are no non-romantic words to say it straight out. So you dance around it or as becoming more common in Japan, they use the English words. (This is also why just using Google translate can lead to some funny language disasters because it doesn't know the connotations of the words and how it applies to context.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 How would you differentiate between educating and speaking? And isn't offering these languages education all in itself? It would be just as possible to refrain from providing immersion. Monolingual parents might spend lots and lots of money on getting their kids to learn languages. They would definitely call it "education". I tried to find EsterMaria's posts on the subject, but could not (oh, how I miss her!). With her, we discussed this frequently, and she pointed out that true bilinguality (or multilinguality), i,e, symmetric bilinguality means that the person is capable of performing ALL language functions he uses, in his life, at his level, equally in both languages. So, a symmetrically bilingual high school student would be able to discuss high school level material in either language, with correct terminology and usage. A bilingual scholar with a graduate degree would be able to use both languages symmetrically at the more sophisticated level at which he uses language, write analytical papers and books in either - of course, symmetric bilinguality will look different for different people because they have different educational levels and use language of differing complexity. So, one needs to look at what level the person uses the language in her life, job, and environment. A truly bilingual education goes beyond "just speaking". My children are fluent in German and English, can read books and carry a conversation - but we did not give them a truly bilingual education: we did not teach content subjects in German, they lack technical terms to discuss physics or advanced math, their writing skills are gravely asymmetric and they would not be able to express complex literary analysis or write creative fiction in German as well as in English So, while teaching a child a foreign language is definitely education, merely learning to speak a foreign language on the level that is usually achieved for foreign language learners is not the same thing as educating the student in that language. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 With her, we discussed this frequently, and she pointed out that true bilinguality (or multilinguality), i,e, symmetric bilinguality means that the person is capable of performing ALL language functions he uses, in his life, at his level, equally in both languages.. Hmm, I must say that I do not fall for the use of the word "true" here, as it seems to imply that anything less than symmetrical language ability would be false bilinguality. Indeed I doubt that anything such as symmetric bilinguality would even be theoretically possible given the differences that exist in vocabulary meaning between languages. (see Jean's excellent observations on differences between English and Japanese above.) The fact that different languages have different stock of words in their vocabulary would seem to make this symmetry impossible (both in theory and practice). This seems akin to defining TRUE fluency in English (or whatever your native language is) to be the ability to correctly use all the words in the English language with the correct meaning. Opening the Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary on a random page will then confirm to me that I only have a FALSE fluency in the English language; [skete=Association of hermits belonging to the Greek Church]. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 That brings us back to the part of the conversation about different meanings and connotations of words, doesn't it? I thought it obvious Regentrude was not using the word true as the opposite of false. Nor did I think she was applying any moral judgement! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 That brings us back to the part of the conversation about different meanings and connotations of words, doesn't it? I thought it obvious Regentrude was not using the word true as the opposite of false. Nor did I think she was applying any moral judgement! Indeed, neither did I believe that she was using the word as the opposite of false since she clarified that she used it in the meaning of "symmetrical", however this is a very unusual and rather arbitrary use of the word "true" where it would seem that the word true here has an entirely stipulative, but unstated, definition. "True" does however have very strong connotations with the word "false" for anything that does then nor comply with the stipulative definition. This is a situation that arises frequently in discussions where the word "true" is used a an arbitrary qualifier as a rhetorical "trick", as in "true democracy", or "true scotsman" . Many, or even most, are not even conscious of their choice of words in this situation, or indeed in any situation, and the connotations of the words can often tell more about the person that uses them than it does about the subject that is being described by the speaker. This is a general situation which I believe valid for all of us, and in some way essentially unavoidable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I suppose we have different experiences. It does not seem very unusual or arbitrary to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I suppose we have different experiences. It does not seem very unusual or arbitrary to me. Checking my dictionary I find one of the meanings of the word "true" to be "agreeing with a standard pattern or rule" which for me seems to be the sense in which the word is being used here, with the "standard" being then further clarified as "symmetry". It is then the standard of symmetry which I find unusual and arbitrary (and theoretically impossible). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I lack those words too, because I am dyscalculic and both advanced math and physics are completely alien to me — in any language. That would make me nice and symmetrical, I guess. :) ETA: That is to say, I won't be offended if you call me uneducated or learning disabled, because I am indeed both those things. To say that someone is not multilingual just because they are uneducated would be inaccurate, however. I tried to explain what I mean by symmetric bilinguality: of course, symmetric bilinguality will look different for different people because they have different educational levels and use language of differing complexity. So, one needs to look at what level the person uses the language in her life, job, and environment. apparently not well. I was referring to being able to use both languages symmetrically at the level and in the circumstances the person is using language. A person who - for whatever reason- does not use math terminology in her first language would not be expected to use math terminology in her second. I was not making any assumptions about somebody else's education and did not mean to offend. I was simply referring to the fact that, if my children study material x in one language and are not able to express the same concepts with same level terminology in the second language, they are not symmetrically bilingual. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 No, she is probably not applying any moral judgement. There is, however, an underlying focus on a certain level of education. I would assume most of the world's multilingual people are not people with an academic European education. They are people growing up in places where multilingualism is the norm, people who may or may not be able to read and write. I don't think one can argue that uneducated people who speak multiple languages are not multilingual because they happen to be uneducated, yet that is exactly the impression I got from many posts on this thread. This is exactly what I tried to explain - apparently not well. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with level of education. If the language use of a person without formal education centers around talking about farming, construction work, household tasks, spiritual life, whatever, and that person is able to express herself equally well in each language, that is symmetric bilinguality. It has nothing to do with being able to discuss complex philosophical thoughts or scientific theories or read literature - or even with being literate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Hmm, I must say that I do not fall for the use of the word "true" here, as it seems to imply that anything less than symmetrical language ability would be false bilinguality. ...Indeed, neither did I believe that she was using the word as the opposite of false since she clarified that she used it in the meaning of "symmetrical", however this is a very unusual and rather arbitrary use of the word "true" where it would seem that the word true here has an entirely stipulative, but unstated, definition. "True" does however have very strong connotations with the word "false" for anything that does then nor comply with the stipulative definition. This is a situation that arises frequently in discussions where the word "true" is used a an arbitrary qualifier as a rhetorical "trick", as in "true democracy", or "true scotsman" . Many, or even most, are not even conscious of their choice of words in this situation, or indeed in any situation, and the connotations of the words can often tell more about the person that uses them than it does about the subject that is being described by the speaker. This is a general situation which I believe valid for all of us, and in some way essentially unavoidable. I do not appreciate the tone of your responses to me and am not sure why I deserve snark. My dictionary lists "real, genuine" as a definition for "true". I have been using the word in that sense. If you are not satisfied, you may chalk it up to the fact that, apparently I am not really symmetrically bilingual. Which would be absolutely correct, since there are language functions which are more difficult for me to perform in English than in my native language, writing poetry for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Maybe a bilingual education goes beyond "just speaking", but truly becoming fluent in another language does not require an education, at least not for everyone. It requires "just speaking". For instance, I never received any formal instruction in the language of the country we live in. I learned exclusively through immersion. I now write materials in that language for a living, and edit the materials of others who speak this language as their native language. I guess the process of learning completely informally worked. I completely agree. I was coming from thinking of the discussion with EsterMaria which was about homeschooling and distinguishing between "teaching a foreign language" and "giving children a bilingual education" - which I do not consider the same. I never implied one could not become fluent with immersion, without any formal instruction. Sorry for not being more clear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I agree that if large portions of vocabulary are missing in one language or another, this represents asymmetry and handicaps the person in daily life while using that language. I do believe that these gaps can usually be filled in quite easily, if we're talking about technical terms and the person otherwise has a good command of the language. Reading books on the subject will probably cure the asymmetry. Sometimes it is not just vocabulary. The vocabulary may be there, but some language functions feel awkward or impossible, because this application of language may be very emotional: comforting a small child, praying, or - as I mentioned in another post - writing poetry. I certainly have the vocabulary to do all these things in English, but some things are difficult for me, and some impossible. Some authors can move from one language to another and compose the bulk of their oevre in the language of the country to which they immigrated - others suffer for the rest of their lives from the loss of voice that comes with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I do not appreciate the tone of your responses to me and am not sure why I deserve snark. My dictionary lists "real, genuine" as a definition for "true". I have been using the word in that sense. If you are not satisfied, you may chalk it up to the fact that, apparently I am not really symmetrically bilingual. Which would be absolutely correct, since there are language functions which are more difficult for me to perform in English than in my native language, writing poetry for example. I am sorry if my tone came across as "snarky" it was probably no more intentional than the implicit consequences of defining true bilingualism as symmetrical, that is that unsymmetrical bilingualism is somehow not true bilingualism. In my view such a symmetrical bilingualism is theoretically impossible and thus your friend's definition seem to me to be defective. The criticism would stand even if you replace "true bilingualism" with "real bilingualism" or "genuine bilingualism" and then clarified that you by this mean symmetrical bilingualism. It is the concept of symmetrical bilingualism I mainly have a problem with more than true, real or genuine which here, in as far as I can understand it, merely expresses a subjective opinion on what the "standard" for bilingualism ought to be, and would thus be just as valid as me defining "true" bilingualism to have a vocabulary of at least 5,000 words in the non-native language. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am sorry if my tone came across as "snarky" it was probably no more intentional than the implicit consequences of defining true bilingualism as symmetrical, that is that unsymmetrical bilingualism is somehow not true bilingualism. In my view such a symmetrical bilingualism is theoretically impossible and thus your friend's definition seem to me to be defective. The criticism would stand even if you replace "true bilingualism" with "real bilingualism" or "genuine bilingualism" and then clarified that you by this mean symmetrical bilingualism. It is the concept of symmetrical bilingualism I mainly have a problem with more than true, real or genuine which here, in as far as I can understand it, merely expresses a subjective opinion on what the "standard" for bilingualism ought to be, and would thus be just as valid as me defining "true" bilingualism to have a vocabulary of at least 5,000 words in the non-native language. Just to clarify, my use of "true" (or "real") referred to symmetrical. So, maybe I should have said truLY symmetrical. You are free to define "bilingualism" however you wish. I do find the concept of symmetry useful for putting language skills into perspective and for distinguishing a higher level of mastery from mere fluency. I do not consider it unattainable; it just takes time and living in, or at least with, the two cultures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Just to clarify, my use of "true" (or "real") referred to symmetrical. So, maybe I should have said truLY symmetrical. You are free to define "bilingualism" however you wish. Yes I do understand that, what I do not understand is how symmetry could be possible, in theory. Say how would symmetry in maths between English and another language which vocabulary includes numbers 1-10, and thereafter goes to many, very many , very very many, etc even be possible? How can an Inuit speaker have symmetry with English with respect to the words that describe different types of snow, of which Inuit have quite a few different ones about 20 I seem to recall, while english only have a handful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It's not just a matter of a gap in vocabulary acquisition, though it can be that especially in the case of concrete nouns. It can be a matter of the word or phrase in one language having a depth of connotation that just isn't present anywhere in another language. That's why certain phrases or words are often used in Japanese even if I'm talking to a bilingual friend in English. We know that there is no real equivalent for that concept in English unless you use a lot of words to explain it. So we just use the Japanese terms. That's why some of these words are coming into the English language even now. So words like unami pop up on the WTM board by foodies who as far as I know, are not Japanese speakers. Conversely, there are words in English that are difficult to express in Japanese. It is really hard to say "I love you" to a child in Japanese. Of course parents feel love for their children but there are no non-romantic words to say it straight out. So you dance around it or as becoming more common in Japan, they use the English words. (This is also why just using Google translate can lead to some funny language disasters because it doesn't know the connotations of the words and how it applies to context.) Oh, I know exactly what you mean. We observe the same with German vs English. Some words, or entire concepts, do not exist in one of the languages. German has no equivalent for "to be supposed to" or for "sophisticated" . It is funny that you should mention "I love you" said by parent to child. Literally translated into German, it would sound absolutely ridiculous, because parents would never express their love to their children in these words. I would consider it precisely a hallmark of bilingualism to be aware of these differences in connotation and to know that there is no 1:1 translation possible. The person who merely translates the phrase is not bilingual ;-) Symmetry, to me, would mean here expressing the love of parent to the child with the culturally appropriate, customary, phrase. In other words, being able to use language correctly in that context , which does not require the existence of a literal translation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Yes I do understand that, what I do not understand is how symmetry could be possible, in theory. Say how would symmetry in maths between English and another language which vocabulary includes numbers 1-10, and thereafter goes to many, very many , very very many, etc even be possible? How can an Inuit speaker have symmetry with English with respect to the words that describe different types of snow, of which Inuit have quite a few different ones about 20 I seem to recall, while english only have a handful? Symmetry, in this case, would be if the person could express in the Inuit language all the nuances about snow that Inuit distinguish, and in English everything that there is to say about snow for native speakers of English. If the culture does not have a certain concept or thing, it makes no sense to expect expression of that concept or thing in the other language. A bilingual person would be aware of this difference in concept and express language appropriately. It makes no sense to talk about number theory in a cultural context where numbers do not exist. It would not make sense to expect the Inuit to have terms for the nuances of tropical vegetation either. The examples are, however, extreme - in most cases, concepts do exist in both languages, but are expressed differently. So, maybe a more accurate definition would be being able to express what a person of similar educational background and cultural situation who is a native speaker of the language would be able to express in their own language. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 .I did find a couple of posts that are applicable to this discussion though. EsterMaria's musings on "authentic" language exposure and her musings on "double school" Thanks for looking these up! As always, EsterMaria expressed much more eloquently what I was attempting to say, for example in post #3 in the thread in the second link. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Jean and Regentrude, I'm so glad that you posted. I had been trying to remember EsterMaria's term when I was posting my convoluted responses and I could not find what I had been looking for. Symmetrical bilingualism. There's no way my kids are going to get symmetrical bilingualism, but I hope at some point I might be able to have it again. I did find a couple of posts that are applicable to this discussion though. EsterMaria's musings on "authentic" language exposure and her musings on "double school" Very happy folks who are way over my head are posting here. I never truly had symmetrical bilingualism in the sense that Regentrude (and I presume EsterMaria) use the term. Regentrude brought up poetry for example. I can appreciate some Japanese poetry. I can even distinguish some of the plays on words that are inherent in it. But Japanese poetry has a very specific form (much more complicated than simply counting out syllables). I used to listen to people have poetry contests (a pasttime which in and of itself is very culturally different than what you would find in the US!) where people would sit and make up poems on the fly and try and best each other. I never ever took a turn because I didn't have the skill to do what they did. But then, I doubt I could just make up some iambic pentameter on the fly too (though I could attempt some blank verse) in English. Does that make me symmetric then? Because I assume some Japanese might have sat and just listened too since I doubt that all Japanese have a natural genetic ability to make poetry :) Or does that make me unsymmetrical since I recognize that it had a linguistic subtlety that I lack? Do do I care? For me language acquisition can be very simply boiled down to learning the words and concepts needed to communicate in the circumstances in which you find yourself. I have a higher knowledge of Christian theological terms in Japanese than the average Japanese, because I grew up in the Japanese church. I acquired the technical terms (along with the technical knowledge) of specific branches of Japanese medicine because of my hospital internship (hospitals are much more specialized there). I'm not symmetric though because I can wax more eloquently on hemophilia in Japanese than in English because I never studied it on that level in the US. But I think I have the English facility to pick up those terms quickly if I were to sit down with a textbook or attend a seminar because my level of understanding of the language in general allows me to plunk technical terms into their places fairly easily. (A side note for Regentrude - learning Japanese medical terms was a bit more difficult for me because Japanese medicine was based on the German medical system and borrowed heavily from the German. This was more confusing for me because I could hear that these words often had a Western root but could not match it to English!) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Did you find this to be the case with even easier works in translation? For example, we read Charles Pierrot's stories or even something like The Nutcracker in Russian rather than English and I'm wondering if over time one can progressively build on with more challenging works to be able to read even challenging works in the minority language? I do think she'd have an easier time with these if we were reading the English language translations but I'm kind of hoping that by doing this it will stretch her language muscles more even if we do end up reading Lattimore's Homer (which I find superior to any Russian translation that I've found). Should I just give up and let her read in whatever language she choses and only enforce Russian for stuff written in the original? It has been my experience that to truly grasp nuances requires a rather extensive language knowledge. I see no benefit in reading a work in a language that is neither the reader's strong language nor the original language of the author - unless it is the only language in which the book is readily available. I have my kids read German books written by German authors; I purposefully avoid German translations of works that are originally in English. Very often those translations are poor, and with these the two languages I possess enough expertise to discern quality of translation. I would be unable to evaluate the quality of a French book since my French is not at a sufficient level. For reading in French, DD read works written by French authors. There's plenty of those to build skill. I am not entirely sure why I should have let her read the work of a Russian author in French, and I could not possibly evaluate the quality of the translation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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