Algebra math tools help? (TC vs. Foerster/Math Without Borders....JA?)

[dauphin]

After WMA's thread (and a conversation with DH that it sparked), I've pulled AoPS off the table for now for DD's (11 yo) Algebra next year.

 

She is doing Tabletclass Pre-Algebra this year and likes it. I like that it is video based. I am comfortable enough with math that I can answer questions but not enough to do the leading/guiding, and I don't think DD will work well with just going straight from a textbook (except for maybe AoPS but that's off the list now). We have had SO many fits and starts with DD. I think sometimes she says she's "bored" with doing math one way and wants a new curriculum. But a lot of our deviations have been more exploratory as I really haven't felt like I have enough of a handle on a general mathematic scope & sequence to judge what she does/doesn't know that she should. 

 

Here's the bullet point version of her history:

 

K-3rd: Montessori school: By the end of her time there, she was doing early Algebra with Hands On Equations. But since Montessori's Scope/Sequence isn't necessarily consistent with a traditional one it's less obvious where any gaps might be.

 

4th: Switched to different private school: left after 3 months due to inflexibility WRT acceleration/accommodation (particularly in math). They used Saxon 5/4 which she and I absolutely HATED. Despised (it didn't help that it was below her current skill level).

 

4th-now: homeschooling, we've tried:

 

Khan Academy: burned her out on it. I tried to use this sort of as a means of assessment. If she can light up all the circles then I know she has mastery, right?!?!? But she was having to start too early to unlock things. She already has a tendency to rush through work/do it in her head, but when it's easy, it gets worse. So she had trouble getting enough correct in a row to gain mastery and move on to higher level subjects. Due to careless mistakes.

 

VideoText Algebra: this was one of the first things we tried. it was alright (review, clear explanations) but we got tears when we ran into gaps (ratios) and I think it required a higher level of independence than she was ready for (managing multiple worktexts/course notes, etc.).

 

Math Mammoth: Used the Blue (topic) books. Burned her out on it. I think she got sick of doing one subject at a stretch and since it wasn't by grade level, I wasn't sure at what point I should reasonably start/stop so she did more problems than she probably should). 

 

Life of Fred: A hit for a long time. Started with Jellybeans to make sure I didn't start too far. She wanted me to go back and buy all the way from Apples just so she could read the story line. Got to Fractions and partway through Decimals/Percents and then she said she was bored with it and wanted to do math with something else.

 

ALEKS: She loved it, especially the rewarding aspect of trying to complete a learning “pie.†I haven’t invested in it because it felt like throwing money at ANOTHER math program.

 

Alcumus: She generally likes it although it sometimes makes her aggravated. But then when she pushes through and figures something out she is QUITE pleased with herself (smug?) and glad that she stuck with it.

 

Rightstart Fractions games kit: To make sure she's solid in it. She wasn't. We are 3/4 of the way through it.

 

I have Rightstart Geometry already and was planning to integrate that with TC when we finished RS Fractions. I am under the impression that it is kind of an overall math review (applied to geometry concepts) and pre-geometry. RS recommends starting VideoText Algebra about halfway through their Geometry program. 

 

I don't want to drop VT from the possibles for Algebra list because I love the philosophy so much: covering the "why" and studying Algebra in a linear fashion from Pre-A to Algebra 2 over the 6 modules. And other things I can't remember. But I think I may need to since, as another poster recently stated: our students are the ones having to use it every day, and if she isn't jazzed about it, what's the point. (What was that - Hunter's sig? A curriculum that gets done is superior to a superior one that doesn't).

 

I asked DD about VT vs. TC and she said "no comparison" and says she likes TC's explanations much better (I think in part because of the teaching he does during the review of the problem sets). She says she feels like he explains things for like 20 min and VT was more like 5. But this is also based on having last looked at it 2 years ago.

 

I read the http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/536797-so-math-intuitionthinking-about-math-tools/ thread and those descriptions sound a LOT like my DD. She's good at math (although I still have trouble characterizing in what way - but she certainly gets concepts quickly and easily and needs little to no practice/drilling to fix it in her head). 

 

I wanted the rigor and deep conceptual understanding AoPS would have given her but I think on reflection it is not for us right now. DD would rather be given the vocabulary/context/meaning of the concept and then use it purposefully (and not excessively/drill), and then move on. She is good at math but definitely likes science more. I've been thinking until recently that her strength in math (ha, it's all relative isn't it) was a sign she would be math-y in her career. I don't think that naturally follows. She certainly does not want to do math in her spare time or spend a morning wrestling over a single problem. She does love logic problems/reasoning puzzles.

 

 

I posted in an earlier thread about "strewing" math and science and for my peace of mind, I think I need a base framework and to strew enrichment.

 

So what's the base?

 

Top choices are TC and after WMA's thread, Foerster. And thankfully Foerster has Math Without Borders videos available (is there anything else for Foerster?). I loved the things I have recently read that were said about Foerster including things like: strength in real-world application, maybe not as deep conceptually as Dolciani but more than adequate for even a future math major. 

 

 

ETA: Watched the MWB videos and that guy talks REALLY slowly. I don't think that he will suit DD (or me!) well. 

 

 

Comments? 

 

 

ETA: I forgot about Righstart.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Great thread! Thanks for starting it! We've just started Foerster, so I'll be following and listening...

[Chrysalis Academy]

Like I said in the other thread, your dd sounds an awful lot like my 8 yo, so I will be listening in too . . . 

 

You mentioned that you have Jacobs.  Given what you said about dd, she might really like it - it's definitely got that puzzly-problem solving aspect.  My dd started it this year, in 7th, at age 11 and she has whizzed through the first 5 chapters, which were all review as she had done Jousting Armadillos in 6th.  Too much review might be a problem for your dd, but I felt like it was worth going through all that stuff again to make sure it was rock solid before moving into new stuff, and it gave us a good opportunity to get a feel for Jacobs.  She really likes it.  The main reason I flirt with other things for Algebra is, first, that Jacobs hasn't been that hard for her (we are using Alcumus for deeper challenge) and second, that she will finish Jacobs this year or at the very beginning of 8th, and I didn't want to officially "do" Geometry till 9th.  So I feel like I have time in 8th to review concepts with another program if we want to, or work on challenge problems/word problems, or work on applications of algebra to science (my dd, like yours, is more of a science lover than a math lover, and I see her using math as a tool, rather than wanting to do more math for its own sake).  

 

Right now I'm thinking extended algebra problem solving plus pre-geometry is how we'll wrap up 8th grade.  The thing that draws me to Foerster's is that people say it has particularly good word problems, especially for sciency kids.  I liked WMA's description of the word problem philosophy on the other thread!  So far I feel like Jacobs is kind of light on word problems.  My dd's biggest challenge at this point is translating word problems into equations.  Once she gets the equation, she has no trouble solving it, but getting there is hard and I'm not very good at helping - if I don't know how to solve a problem, I tend to use a lot of creative problem solving solutions, kind of jerry-rigging or reverse-engineering, and while there is value in modelling that, I don't feel like it helps her with understanding systematically how to solve problems more elegantly in the first place!

 

One other thought I have based on watching how dd learns:  She tends to zone out with video instruction, and miss what matters. I've found that once she struggles with solving a problem, she will watch a video on the topic with attention, but otherwise she tends to zone out.  That's why I've not considered something like Tablet Class or any of the other video-based tools.  But if they work for your dd, that's great.  I would go with what you feel intuitively is going to work best for her learning style as your spine, and then provide novelty via lots of extras/supplements.

[dauphin]

I forgot to mention that Jousting Armadillos recently came in the mail. Intriguing, I think it might be that middle ground between AoPS and the rest of the pack ;)

 

Also, I'm interested in Zaccaro's Real World Algebra but I saw in another thread that Dereksurfs said they were planning to use it during Pre-Algebra but by the time his son had finished Tabletclass Pre-A, it felt as if they had moved past it?

 

I'm open to following a plan like yours, Rose, but I suspect DD is allergic to anything she feels seems like repetition....

 

I forgot where I said I have Jacobs, but I actually have 2nd and 3rd editions of Geometry (Yes, I'm planning to join the 12-step group for math-book-buying whenever y'all get it kicked off, haha). I don't have Algebra yet but I've seen it at book sales and the $35-ish it is priced at right now seems not-too-bad.

 

Based on your comment about videos, I decided to go preview the ones for Math Without Borders. My impression - DD doesn't really have an issue with learning from videos, per se, but, man, that guy talks SLOWLY. I had trouble staying focused and I suspect DD would too. For all of his idiosyncrasies (Northeastern-isms?), Zimmerman's pace is a better fit, I suspect. We borrowed a copy of MUS from a friend so we could preview the video and neither DD nor I found his delivery engaging, either. It may be that I found more of a "good fit" than I realized with TC....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood- I thought you had Jacobs Algebra.  So disregard what I said about that!  Jousting Armadillos is based on Jacobs, and it's awesome.  It was Shannon's favorite math ever.  She really enjoyed Zaccaro Real World Algebra, too.  She did a combo of those two programs in the 2nd half of 6th grade.  You are right, JA is kind of a middle ground - very puzzly, lots of emphasis on understanding why things work the way they do, very guided discovery.  And by Ch. 6 there are some pretty challenging problems!   So my vote would be to try that, since you got it!  FWIW, I worked pretty closely with Shannon on it for the first two chapters, after that she did it mostly independently, although she had to read me all the funny problems!  She really loved the author's voice and sense of humor.

[dauphin]

NP! I might have implied it...Oh and I also have Jacobs' Mathematics a Human Endeavor but I'm not quite sure where it would fit in with all this other stuff...

 

I'm glad I looked back here - I was about to pull the trigger on Jacobs Algebra on Amazon but now that you mention it, I think I do recall hearing somewhere about JA being based off of Jacobs... ;). 

 

And I went to look at Zaccaro's stuff. Drool. I think I will keep my eyes open for that at our local curriculum sales, though. *fingers crossed* I'm not as anxious about this as it seems more "supplemental" to me. But I feel this silly sense of urgency to pin down next year's core for Algebra....so I'm going to go ahead and order Foerster to take a look at it. The price is right, that's for sure... 

[kiana]

Jacobs is a fine course as well and has done well by many years of mathematical students if it better suits your dd's style. I am less familiar with JA as it is newer and I haven't been able to look at it but I would not hesitate to use it if I thought it would suit. 

[dauphin]

Thank you Kiana that is reassuring to hear that given your background!  I am ready to seriously look at it. We have plenty of time to add in/beef up any skills not covered (e.g., Foerster's word problems?).

 

I've heard about JA being used for pre-A/A review but I don't know that many people have actually said that they've used it all the way through.

 

Or is curriculum hopping just an inherent illness of those who frequent the WTM boards....

 

About JA, does Dereksurfs not really come over on these (Accelerated) boards? I was recalling that he used TC prior to using AoPS but very seriously looked at some of the others under discussion here....

 

considering cross-posting over in Logic Stage/Middle Grades...

[Chrysalis Academy]

JA is just very new, I don't think a lot of people have used it yet.  There are a couple of people who answered my questions on the Logic board who had gotten to it before me.  I seem to be the big cheerleader for it since then.  We did use it all the way through. in 6th grade, along with Zaccaro RWA, and then moved on to Jacobs mostly because I already owned it and didn't want to pay the high price tag for the other Arbor books.   I know other people have gotten it and maybe even started it, but I don't know who else has finished it.  I seem to recall that Roadrunner got it and found it too easy, but her son is way more math accelerated than Shannon is.

[MarkT]

 

Based on your comment about videos, I decided to go preview the ones for Chalkdust. My impression - DD doesn't really have an issue with learning from videos, per se, but, man, that guy talks SLOWLY. I had trouble staying focused and I suspect DD would too. For all of his idiosyncrasies (Northeastern-isms?), Zimmerman's pace is a better fit, I suspect. We borrowed a copy of MUS from a friend so we could preview the video and neither DD nor I found his delivery engaging, either. It may be that I found more of a "good fit" than I realized with TC....

I don't think Chalkdust matches Foerster from what I remember.

 

http://mathwithoutborders.com/ is geared towards Foerster there are a few samples on Youtube.

David Chandler is the instructor.

[dauphin]

OK I am a dweeb. I was thinking Math Without Borders when I said Chalkdust. DOH. Going to edit where appropriate!

 

 

 

 

[Roadrunner]

I seem to recall that Roadrunner got it and found it too easy, but her son is way more math accelerated than Shannon is.

This is true. My DS found it very easy. However, we think that JA is the reason my son didn't blink when he worked through chapters 2, 3 and 5 of Aops preA. So I am very glad we invested money and time into JA over the past summer. Along with BA, it was the perfect prep for aops.

[deerforest]

My DD sounds very similar. We are starting JA tomorrow but I do think we will move through it quickly. So, I bought AoPS pre-algebra. I want to at least give it a try because BA was amazing for her. But I don't plan on having DD do it independently. The intense independent discovery method will kill her interest so I'll work with her. I don't know what we are doing for algebra I yet, but I am going to outsource everything beyond that. We have some local classes that might work better than an online option for her.

[dauphin]

Update: 

 

I've gotten a copy of Jacobs and for all that I liked Jacobs Geometry (2nd edition), I'm kind of "meh" about it.

 

I've gotten a copy of Foerster's and I really really like it.

 

I've looked over my copy of JA and definitely there is limited practice - it strikes me as more the Life of Fred genre/type. Shall we finish TC and then do JA; and do we need to wait to start an Algebra book until we're done with both? 

 

By then (after finishing TC Pre-A and JA) I might have changed my  mind about math again. DD certainly has. She says (today at least) that's she's bored with TC. Sigh. She also was in a grouchy mood because she's 4 weeks behind on geography but caught up on everything else, so guess what she's looking at having to do for the next 2.5 days....So who knows if that will last until next week, or if it even was genuine this time. Never a dull moment around here...

 

 

[dauphin]

Update: She's now "bored" with TC. She said she wanted ALEKS. I had JA on the shelf and offered it along with Dolciani. She chose JA.

 

However, I think there's a process/personality issue here and my DH put words to it just a couple of days ago in describing her method of approaching most things in life: Type A. Not in the uber-successful executive sense, but in the "let's get it done, not mess with extraneous stuff, and I'm well equipped to judge what's useful and what's not." And then she's really not. She's 11.

 

She initially thought that TC was great for the way he does additional teaching in the portion where they go over the answers to the problem sets ("Oh, I like how he says 'most kids tend to make this mistake a lot'..."). Then she found that she was pretty successful with the problem sets and quit watching the (solution set) videos. Then she hits the point where Zimmerman is saying "be sure you are "rock solid" on __ before you do __" and she admits to not feeling rock solid... and saying she actually has to "work at it" now, and even displays occasional tears at approaching a problem (solving multi-step equations). 

 

She said she wanted to just switch to ALEKS. I really don't want to just.go.buy.another.curriculum and I think maybe I'm picking up on an underlying weakness that isn't necessarily mathematical but attitudinal (I don't want to call it arrogance....overconfidence....?) - I think she doesn't follow the prescribed course very well because she thinks it isn't necessary. They conversation we keep having is "They're not putting that stuff there to waste your time! There's a reason for the practice/review/discussion/video" - of course that isn't true for every curriculum so that's why I'm willing to be somewhat flexible with trying different curriculum (e.g., a too-spiral program (SAXON!!!!) will drive both of us nuts because the level/frequency of review WILL waste our time!). Then she's not as solid as she could be and it comes back and bites her, and then she gets mad at the curriculum. 

 

So...I said I would purchase ALEKS ....IF....she goes back and watches all of the videos she skipped, first. Pragmatically speaking, though, that probably means watching all of them. If she does that, I don't think she'll have the same difficulty with the work...and a switch won't be necessary...KWIM?

 

I also offered to switch to Dolciani (whose scope/sequence/order seems different enough it might also necessitate backing up some)...she declined. With tears.

 

But for the moment I'm going to let her do JA.

She tried to shortcut the first lesson (about showing the ways we know things - one or two examples per statement of fact vs. really stretching her mind to understand the different ways we might believe we know something to be true). So we had another discussion about that. Sigh.

 

So I think I'm also going to require watching one of the TC videos a day.

 

Given that background, I don't know what pacing to do JA. I may go post another thread on that...

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, I answered on your other thread, but reading this background, my suggestion would be to do Ch. 1 of JA orally together.  It's really easy for a bright kid to read it and go "yeah, yeah I get this stuff" because the math part isn't hard - what he's trying to introduce here is the logic, its how to think about math.  Going through that thinking makes the whole rest of the program go more smoothly.

 

Then, like I said, we did roughly a lesson a day until Ch. 6, where the lessons took 2-3 days each.

[dauphin]

I talked her through the problem a little bit and she did better but I should probably still review it and discuss with her further. We talk logic/reasoning here but you've emphasized its importance to the book....

 

She's already about 2/3 of the way through the 2nd lesson and is hiding it from me and crowing over it "oh, NOW it gets hard! Ooh!" "You can't look yet, I'm not done yet!"

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think I've mentioned, this was Shannon's favorite math book.  ever.  She would talk out loud to it and giggle and make comments while she was reading it, too.

 

Why didn't I buy the other two books again?  Oh yeah, because I wasted all the money on two AoPS books which I will probably never use . . .  :huh:

[dauphin]

For the record, JA is still a hit.

 

I was just re-reading the recently bumped Pre-Algebra fence-straddlers thread and was reminded how much I thought Foerster might be a good fit for us/her, but if MWB is our only option for online/video teaching...well.....IDK that that is a good fit. Would love to know if I have any other choices! And I was also reminded that it might be a mistake to switch to AoPS, since we've had a bad reaction to the Pre-A sample. Definitely gives me pause about committing to a year-long course like the WTMA one.

 

So otherwise, at least at the moment, we are going to push forward with the Arbor books.

 

 

 

 

[AimeeM]

I'm listening in as well. I love the looks of Foerster, but I'm NOT a fan of the math without borders. Despite DD's reluctance to do any math on the computer, I'm leaning that way.