Concerns about 4 year old

[Annie Laurie]

I couldn't decide if this should go here or the PreK board.

 

For one thing, there is a 6.5 year age space between my 4 year old and his next closest sibling, all of my other kids are preteens and teens. So I don't know if I've just forgotten what younger kids are like. Also, my previous preschoolers were probably unusual, so maybe they are an unfair yardstick to measure him against. My other kids could read by his age and two of them could write well too, and it just happened through play and conversation.

 

My 4 year old refuses to even try to hold a pencil or color anything, he has zero interest in workbooks, and he will not do any learning activities with me, even when I try to approach them as play and not school. The one thing he does do is listen to stories, he loves being read to, and he has a good attention span for long stories, he likes fairy tales and Beatrix Potter. He asks a lot of insightful questions about the plot and characters in the stories we read. He's very smart, but I feel like maybe he's delayed in preschool skills. He can count to only 10. He knows all his letters and sounds but doesn't care to learn how to read.

 

He didn't sleep through the night for his first 2.5 years of life. He just turned 4 in November, and still refuses to poop on the potty and has many wetting accidents too. He has a lot of tantrums and is just a very high-need child. He requires a lot of attention. He is still disruptive during school with the big kids. He seems unhappy a lot of the time. There have been many changes in his world in the last year- my husband was laid off, then started a new job that has him either working from home or traveling internationally, so he's gone for long periods of time. There has been tension in the house as we adjust to him being here so much or being gone for long periods. I don't know if his issues stem from that or if there is something else wrong. Some of my other kids have been tested as gifted and have mild dyslexia and ADD. One of my kids I think has Aspergers and should have been tested for that. All of that to say, there could be a genetic component.

 

Control is very important to him. He will refuse to do anything he has control over, like pottying or eating. I have backed way off on the pottying because the accidents were so bad, and have put him in pull ups. I make him little plates of food with lots of choices and don't comment on what he does or doesn't eat. I worry that he'll be impossible to homeschool because he's so contrary about everything, and I think he'll refuse to cooperate if he senses it's something important to me. (Please be gentle, this is very hard.)

 

So, with a young kid like this, when do you worry about testing? When should I worry about his lack of interest in learning to read? If testing makes sense even this early, where would I start?

 

 

[Lecka]

For his age (a new 4) I have no concerns at all about his reading or fine motor (holding a pencil etc).  He is still really young for those things, imo.  I think he is not doing them early, but far from delayed.  

 

I am on the concerned side about the potty training, and seeming unhappy a lot of the time. 

[sbgrace]

IMO he's much too young to be concerned about the lack of interest in reading and writing. He sounds perfectly fine developmentally in that sense to me. I'd leave him alone in other academic things for now and just continue reading aloud.

 

He sounds as if he could have some special needs otherwise (social/emotional) perhaps given the potty training, high needs type stuff you described. Nothing particularly jumps out, but given the family history I think I'd keep my eyes open as he grows up.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

Agree with the others.  Academically, I don't think anything you are describing is unusual.  I read very, very early but my cousin, who is only 6 weeks younger, and male, didn't read or write until he was nearly 7.  He had a perfectly normal childhood and life and did fine in school.  He is intelligent and capable and did well in college, too.  He has a very successful career.  He just was on a different time table than I was.  

 

Not to say that you shouldn't seek an evaluation prior to the age of 7.  I actually think something sooner would probably be better if there are still obvious issues in a year or two.  I just wouldn't be too concerned right now with the lack of interest in academics.  Especially anything workbook related.  I know a ton of kids that hate anything workbook related and my DD had zero interest in learning to read at that age.  

 

But the fact that potty training and eating are such huge issues and he seems so unhappy would concern me.  

 

I think you made the right choice to back off on anything academic and I would not press academics right now at all.  If he loves to be read to, then do that.  Maybe let him listen to audio books, too.  And watch fun educational DVDs.  Play lots of games.  Field trips.  Projects.  There are tons of ways to learn.  Try anything he will engage in.  

 

As the parent of two dyslexic children, I honestly wouldn't test for even dyslexia at 4, even though signs can already be there.  Give him some time to mature.  Work on dealing with the other issues first.  If he has sensory/social/emotional issues then academics would probably not be very productive anyway right now, whether you could get an accurate diagnosis of other underlying issues, such as dyslexia, or not.

 

Hugs and best wishes.  I know you are stressed and worried.  I am so sorry.  

[kbutton]

I have a 10 y.o. DS who is gifted and also diagnosed with PDD-NOS (basically Asperger's), SPD, and ADHD (impulsiveness and a very noisy brain are his main symptoms of ADHD). He was not diagnosed until he was around 9. We saw signs of SPD and ADHD, but we didn't know what the SPD was, and compared to some other kids we know, his ADHD really looked like mostly a non-issue (they were pretty severe by comparison). We unwrapped all of that piece by piece--the only thing we knew for sure is that he was gifted and that if he had ADHD, we were pretty sure it wasn't the whole story (sensory was the second piece that slipped into place though we didn't seek a formal diagnosis right away). We didn't see stimming behavior that we recognized as such--upon realizing that he was likely on the spectrum, we realized that his stims are mostly vocal. It's just that he makes SO MUCH NOISE, it all blended together at some point (talking, sound effects, noises, playing with his voice, foreign accents, talking in character or like an animal--he does or has done all of this for hours every day).

 

Your story has many developmental similarities to our son's, and no one really ever suggested ASD to us at any point until he was diagnosed. Many people were totally surprised by the diagnosis (a few were like, "Hmm...that makes sense now, but I wouldn't have thought of that."). It wasn't long before his peers started shedding their own "he's just a boy" behaviors, and then our son really started to stand out. Some details are different, but a number of things stand out to me--the sleep issues, control issues, potential motor issues (not all kids who won't write have them, but it's astonishing how often the lack of interest stems from a motor problem), and potty issues (ours were a bit different, but potty training can be an issue with spectrum kids both as a personality thing and with soiling/wetting problems that are biological). As for the motor issues--we found out our son has both good and terrible fine and gross motor skills, he had visual motor issues (convergence insufficiency) that were corrected with VT, and he has poor bilateral/mid-line skills--all of that meant that he would tackle motor tasks only if and when he was strongly motivated or basically railroaded into it. None of the issues were severe enough to raise big red flags (Montessori preschool was the ONLY place that raised a concern about those things).

 

We also had a lot of transition and stress that contributed to our situation. That made it hard to figure out what was up and easy to dismiss oddities.

 

Our son on the spectrum is our oldest, so he didn't have siblings doing school all day. I'm actually wondering if your son has (incorrectly) generalized that the bigger kids are really busy with school, and if he does school, he thinks he'll be just as busy, even though he isn't going to be doing nearly as much work right away. Our son literally didn't understand that he was a kid until he had a sibling, and he responded constantly to our authority with grave insult to his person and autonomy. If it was just about being bossed around, that would be one thing, but he was insulted when we gave him kid-friendly silverware and stuff like that! Getting him a baby potty sent him over the edge (when he was 15 months!). Anyway, he may be getting mixed signals (on his own, not from you) about whether he's a big kid, little kid, or something else simply because of the age difference, and that may make him more resistant to some things. Just a possibility, not necessarily what is happening.

 

The fact that your other kids had a different trajectory (but also have some issues) stands out to me--I think family context is really a big deal with any possible developmental issues. Family history is a HUGE deal in our family and extended family--there are definite patterns if you know what to look for.

 

I am not sure if you are looking for permission to seek answers or wanting someone to help you worry less, so I hope this is helpful information. I would start with whatever kind of professional will not dismiss your concerns, and i would seek answers about the potty stuff asap--he could have a biological problem (there are lots of threads about this on the forum). We did not start looking for answers earlier on because we had determined and internalized that he was strong-willed and that we were not particularly good at dealing with him. We sought counseling for this, and it was a terrible experience--couldn't have been much worse, and the counselor believed we were lying about both my son's behaviors and his capabilities (she clearly didn't know much about either gifted kids or kids with exceptionalities). It scared me away from looking for additional answers, esp. since I figured I was simply deficient. So, start with someone friendly--pediatrician, developmental pediatrician, psychologist--anyone that you think will listen and be able to point you to broader resources without getting all judgy and critical. It may take some time to find the right helper and the right diagnosis (or suggested path if there is nothing to diagnose). I truly have no idea if finding the right person would have raised enough red flags--there was always a convenient/logical explanation for most of my son's differences until he hit age 7 or 8.

[geodob]

Hi Anne Laurie.

I would like to suggest that the whole issue is to do with 'Control' ?

Where he hasn't developed the ability to 'share control with the other'?

 

The ability to share control with the other?

In an infant, first relies on establishing a 'trust in the other'.

It is only when this 'trust in the other' is established.

That an infant starts to share control with the other.

 

To share control with their Parents.

Where an infant doesn't just automatically share this control with parents?

They first need to develop a trust in them, so that they feel safe to pass control over to the parents.

 

So that while they can't make sense of why they need to eat all of these different tasting things on a plate?

Their is underlying trust, that it is in their best interest.

Afterall with potty training?

An infant only learns this, not because they understand it as important?

Rather they recognize that it is important to their parents.

So that they learn this, based on trusting that their parents have a good reason for it.

Which currently they don't understand.

 

Where you wrote that 'he doesn't care to learn how to read'?

Which suggests that he will only learn to read, when he decides for himself that he wants to?

 

Which in terms of broader schooling and education, will limit his learning to what he first decides he wants to learn.

Rather than trusting others, to decide what he needs to learn.

Even if the reason for learning it, doesn't currently make any sense to him?

 

Why bother learning to read, if he can get someone else to do the reading for him?

Where in terms of future homeschooling or schooling, and his being contrary?

I might pick up on your line: '...,and I think that he'll refuse to cooperate if he senses it's something important to me.'

 

This is at the heart of the issue?

Where this 'sensing that it is important to you'?

Is rather an acceptance that while he might not understand something as important'?

That he can he trust your decision for why he needs  to learn something.

Which will only become clear, after he has learned it.

Having a 'blind faith' in the other, and trusting them to take control.

 

Though I noted in another post that you made?

Where you wrote about his imaginative play, and climbing a mountain !  Up the staircase.

 

But this made me think of a different imaginative mountain climbing?

From  solo climb, to a 2 Team mountain climb?

In a 2 Team mountain climb, one member climbs above and establishes their position.

Which they communicate to their team member below.

Who needs to have trust in what their team member has told them.

 

As they step off the ledge, and rely on the rope that their team member has anchored.

Just in case they fall?

 

So that coming back to his: 'his refusal to do anything that he doesn't have control over'?

He needs to develop confidence in the decisions of his team member above him!

So that he has trust, as he steps off the ledge.

Knowing that he will be caught, if he falls !

 

In a situation of 'shared control'.

Putting one's life under the control of the other.

Allowing them to make decisions for ourselves.

 

I don't know why I need to learn this, and despite how difficult I find it?

I trust your reason for why I need to learn it.

 

Where refusal is replaced with trust.

[PeterPan]

nt

[Mrs. Tharp]

What Lecka and OneStepAtATime said.

[MistyMountain]

Academically he sounds fine. I would not be concerned that he isn't reading at 4. Knowing his letters sounds and counting to 10 is perfect for 4. As far as the other stuff if you are worried I would get it looked into.

[HS Mom in NC]

4 year olds don't need teachers, they need mothers. Most children should not be getting academic instruction of any kind at age 4. Are there kids who are ready and need it? Yes.  Most don't.

[Tsuga]

The below is, in my experience, very normal. It usually only seems like a problem to parents who have been insulated from "normal" four-year-olds. My child was the same--now top of her class in reading, writing, etc. The insightful questions are a great, great sign.

 

My 4 year old refuses to even try to hold a pencil or color anything, he has zero interest in workbooks, and he will not do any learning activities with me, even when I try to approach them as play and not school. The one thing he does do is listen to stories, he loves being read to, and he has a good attention span for long stories, he likes fairy tales and Beatrix Potter. He asks a lot of insightful questions about the plot and characters in the stories we read. He's very smart, but I feel like maybe he's delayed in preschool skills. He can count to only 10. He knows all his letters and sounds but doesn't care to learn how to read.

 

He didn't sleep through the night for his first 2.5 years of life.

 

As for the below, please understand that I realize you are very frustrated and worried and I am not judging your choice to homeschool. But...

 

He is still disruptive during school with the big kids.

 

How would this be avoided without a nanny to care for him, or without him being put in daycare?

 

You are working. You have a four year old.

 

Sounds like a recipe for frustration for all involved, no matter what the child's needs are (special, typical, or otherwise).

 

There is a reason, as I like to tell men who have wives who stay home, that you do not bring the children to the office. If you can't get work done in the office with kids around, don't expect your wife to get work done at home.

 

But you do have a four-year-old in your office.

 

That must be very frustrating.

[Shellydon]

Given all you have described, I would be concerned.  I would consider having him tested by the local Early Childhood Intervention therapists.  It is free and could provide you with good information.  Another choice would be to place him in a fun preschool a couple of mornings a week.  Something that is non-academic, maybe Montessori in style.  See how he does there with other 4 year olds in a small group setting.

[Annie Laurie]

Thank you very much for all your responses. I am mulling over everything that was said and am trying some new things with my son that seem to be helping.