Next Year, I Am Really Going to Be Organized

[Tsuga]

We are going to practice instruments. We are going to keep the homework table clean. We are going to discuss historical and/or literary issues at the table. We are going to discuss math in the car. FOR REAL THIS TIME.

 

Okay. Help me think through this.

 

1. I am going to be okay with getting lost and missing turns because I'm car-schooling. Yes. I will.

 

2. We are going to prioritize music practice three times per week: two weeknights and Saturday. This is more realistic.

 

3. We are going to go to bed earlier.

 

4. We are going to follow through on making our middle-schoolers read one newspaper article a week. We're going to force it even if it means them reading aloud on Sundays.

 

5. I am going to find the ultimate book of math puzzles, AOPS perhaps? and I'm going to make my kids do it along with their homework which always has one optional page.

 

6. Maybe I can find DD1 (I have a DSD1, DSS, DD1, and DD2) a chess club.

 

And we're still going to do sport because gosh dangit we are not going to be couch potatoes.

 

Okay. Any tips? Any goals?

 

Update in post #55!

 

[SKL]

Good luck!  That sounds like something I've said before.  :)  I find that it gets easier to stick to a routine (and get more done) after winter break, because there aren't as many unavoidable disruptions.

 

I don't have a lot of tips on academics.  I agree with music practice a few days a week.  I agree with going to bed earlier.  As far as sport, my favorite is family TKD.  Good workout, flexible schedule, self-motivating, worthwhile skill / attitude focus.  Best of all it involves Mom getting off her butt.

 

I don't really do "car schooling" any more.  I did it from KG through 2nd grade, and I'm not really sure why it worked then but doesn't work now.  They do read in the car, but they often complain it makes them carsick, so I don't plan on it.  I haven't tried audio books so far.  Maybe I should.

[Slache]

We are going to practice instruments. We are going to keep the homework table clean. We are going to discuss historical and/or literary issues at the table. We are going to discuss math in the car. Verbal Math or Ray's Arithmetic? FOR REAL THIS TIME.

 

Okay. Help me think through this.

 

1. I am going to be okay with getting lost and missing turns because I'm car-schooling. Yes. I will.

 

2. We are going to prioritize music practice three times per week: two weeknights and Saturday. This is more realistic. If you do this for JUST 20 minutes it will be easy to prioritize, even if it's 4 days instead of an hour for 3 days.

 

3. We are going to go to bed earlier. Get up earlier. You'll get stuff done in the morning, and be ready for bed. I'm very serious. This is big.

 

4. We are going to follow through on making our middle-schoolers read one newspaper article a week. We're going to force it even if it means them reading aloud on Sundays.

 

5. I am going to find the ultimate book of math puzzles, AOPS perhaps? and I'm going to make my kids do it along with their homework which always has one optional page.

 

6. Maybe I can find DD1 (I have a DSD1, DSS, DD1, and DD2) a chess club.

 

And we're still going to do sport because gosh dangit we are not going to be couch potatoes. Martial Arts. You can all do that together.

 

Okay. Any tips? Any goals?

 

[IsabelC]

That sounds like a wonderful set of goals (except #4 - if we ever had newspapers, I would more likely be hiding them from the kids, but I guess that changes when your dc are a little older).

 

I can only think of a couple of tips:

 

1. Put your objectives in a logical order and tackle them in a staggered fashion, rather than trying to change everything at once. Maybe focus on one new habit the first week, then add another each week. I'd start with the sleep hygiene because a decent night's sleep will give you more energy, and your students are less likely to be stroppy, resulting in a better chance of succeeding with subsequent improvements. (And yes, we have also found that getting up earlier is the key, because if you just make kids go to bed earlier, they stay awake for ages, whereas if you get them out of bed earlier in the morning, they are actually tired in the evening and don't mind going to sleep.)

 

2. Ease into goals by making mini goals that aren't daunting. For example, with music practice, I have found the easiest way is to start by just doing some, any amount. Commit to practice every day (or just 3 days a week in your case) no matter what, but don't require a certain number of minutes or list of items to practice. Just get to the piano or get out the instrument and start playing, and for the first week or two it's OK if practice time only lasts a few minutes. If you know you have to practice for an hour, it's easy to convince yourself that you don't really have the time today, but everyone has time to practice for a few minutes. Once you get past the hurdle of starting on a regular basis, and that becomes a habit, it is actually surprisingly easy to increase the quantity and quality of the practice. 

[Slache]

But wait! There's more! I am so tired.

 

I have a fixed schedule every day. Bible at this time, outside at this time, nap, noms, laundry, anyway... This would never get done if I didn't have 18 alarms going off all day. I hear the Tardis, time for lunch. Is that a babbling brook? It must be nap time. It works great for me, but I'm sure it would drive others nuts.

[Cosmos]

That sounds like a wonderful set of goals (except #4 - if we ever had newspapers, I would more likely be hiding them from the kids, but I guess that changes when your dc are a little older).

 

I can only think of a couple of tips:

 

1. Put your objectives in a logical order and tackle them in a staggered fashion, rather than trying to change everything at once. Maybe focus on one new habit the first week, then add another each week. I'd start with the sleep hygiene because a decent night's sleep will give you more energy, and your students are less likely to be stroppy, resulting in a better chance of succeeding with subsequent improvements. (And yes, we have also found that getting up earlier is the key, because if you just make kids go to bed earlier, they stay awake for ages, whereas if you get them out of bed earlier in the morning, they are actually tired in the evening and don't mind going to sleep.)

 

2. Ease into goals by making mini goals that aren't daunting. For example, with music practice, I have found the easiest way is to start by just doing some, any amount. Commit to practice every day (or just 3 days a week in your case) no matter what, but don't require a certain number of minutes or list of items to practice. Just get to the piano or get out the instrument and start playing, and for the first week or two it's OK if practice time only lasts a few minutes. If you know you have to practice for an hour, it's easy to convince yourself that you don't really have the time today, but everyone has time to practice for a few minutes. Once you get past the hurdle of starting on a regular basis, and that becomes a habit, it is actually surprisingly easy to increase the quantity and quality of the practice. 

 

Isabel has excellent advice. I second both of these tips. I would even suggest focusing on each habit for THREE weeks before adding a new one. And definitely start with sleep.

 

I used to make massive lists like this and they usually stuck for a week at most. Working on habits incrementally and consistently has worked far better for me.

[Tsuga]

Wow, thanks you guys.

 

The timer. Great idea. I have a calendar with alarms--I need to make a parallel system for these for myself with reminders.

 

Priorities--yes. I think we'll start with music because it kills me that we are spending money on lessons without the requisite practice. It's foolish and I kind of feel ashamed going to the teachers unprepared.

 

I would LOVE to do martial arts with my children, and I know a really great dojo as well, a family place. But unfortunately, the kids are really not into it. One way I get them into sports is by letting them choose. But this is a dream of mine, karate together. We do swim now and they want gymnastics. I hate gymnastics because injury, eating disorders, and it's FAR. Of course they love it because sparkly leotards, ponytails.

 

As for music... seriously if we can get 10 minutes it would be amazing. 20 minutes? I get off work at three, race home, pick up DD2 at 3:35 from an after-school program, and come home to DD1, DSS and DSD. Then it's sport for at least one kid, maybe two, and music for another. I'm chauffeur for a good 1.5 hours. Homework while the others do sport.

 

Then I make a homemade meal, or at least do prep for my partner at least three nights per week, sometimes four, other nights it's "easy" food like breakfast for dinner, leftovers, sandwiches, or something canned/Trader Joe's. Food is important to us. We'd like to spend less on prepared stuff but frankly that is one area of my life where I feel we do a heck of a lot more than most families and at the same time it's something we really, really want for our kids. That is also when I do homework with the kids, they sit at the table, I chop veggies. This ritual is important to us. It is the one thing I said I wouldn't give up when I went back to work, decent food, a decent meal. The man can't help because he goes in to work late so he can do the drop-off with the kids. This is how we have a parent at home with the kids all the time.

 

Music at that time is hard, because I need to help the wee one focus on the notes. I need to be there.

 

After dinner we have about 1 hour because we talk at dinner. 1 hour for the whole bedtime routine including calling their dad.

 

So maybe music 5x per week, but 10 minutes. I wish I could get my girls in sport at the same time though. They are five and eight so it's tough.

 

 

[kiwik]

I understand the work until 3 thing. You are constantly behind. If you hang out the washing before work it rains but otherwise you really need to do it the minute you walk in the door. You never seem to quite get on top of things and just when you need a quiet half hour to get over work you are dumped into the middle of bedlam.

[Tsuga]

I live in the Seattle area.

 

We do not hang anything outside to dry here, LOL.

[kiwik]

Neither do I often - I just don't admit it because is is politically incorrect.

[Slache]

Wow, thanks you guys.

 

The timer. Great idea. I have a calendar with alarms--I need to make a parallel system for these for myself with reminders. If you have an idevice check out the 30/30 app which they don't make for android because they like it when I cry.

 

Priorities--yes. I think we'll start with music because it kills me that we are spending money on lessons without the requisite practice. It's foolish and I kind of feel ashamed going to the teachers unprepared.

 

I would LOVE to do martial arts with my children, and I know a really great dojo as well, a family place. But unfortunately, the kids are really not into it. One way I get them into sports is by letting them choose. But this is a dream of mine, karate together. We do swim now and they want gymnastics. I hate gymnastics because injury, eating disorders, and it's FAR. Of course they love it because sparkly leotards, ponytails.

 

As for music... seriously if we can get 10 minutes it would be amazing. 20 minutes? What about 15 minutes every day before breakfast? Or bed? I get off work at three, race home, pick up DD2 at 3:35 from an after-school program, and come home to DD1, DSS and DSD. Then it's sport for at least one kid, maybe two, and music for another. I'm chauffeur for a good 1.5 hours. Homework while the others do sport.

 

Then I make a homemade meal, or at least do prep for my partner at least three nights per week, sometimes four, other nights it's "easy" food like breakfast for dinner, leftovers, sandwiches, or something canned/Trader Joe's. Food is important to us. We'd like to spend less on prepared stuff but frankly that is one area of my life where I feel we do a heck of a lot more than most families and at the same time it's something we really, really want for our kids. That is also when I do homework with the kids, they sit at the table, I chop veggies. This ritual is important to us. It is the one thing I said I wouldn't give up when I went back to work, decent food, a decent meal. The man can't help because he goes in to work late so he can do the drop-off with the kids. This is how we have a parent at home with the kids all the time. Once a month cooking! I buy meat in bulk from New Seasons and put in bags with seasoning, veggies, cream, etc. and freeze them. I write directions on the bag so anyone can toss it in the slow cooker. Get with the program.  ;) 

 

Music at that time is hard, because I need to help the wee one focus on the notes. I need to be there.

 

After dinner we have about 1 hour because we talk at dinner. 1 hour for the whole bedtime routine including calling their dad.

 

So maybe music 5x per week, but 10 minutes. I wish I could get my girls in sport at the same time though. They are five and eight so it's tough.

On another note, since you seem overwhelmed, I LOVE my nightly list. Every night I empty the dishwasher, wipe down counters and tables, make sure the bathroom's picked up... you get the idea. This makes the next day run smoothly. This might be inapplicable to you, but think about it.

[sunnyday]

I am going to do math instruction with both my kids daily. Not get overwhelmed by the chaos of basketball + karate when the former kicks in at the end of January. Maybe add piano in there. Read aloud daily. Engage them in conversations and regular library visits about their science interests. Start remediating DS's underachieving decoding and spelling with AAS instruction (at least a few times per week?) Get in the classroom with DS, and maybe step up my involvement with DD's class (creating math programming for DD and her accelerated little friend).

 

This time, for reals! It's going to happen! (Best intentions, oi...)

[SKL]

By the way - I have changed piano lessons to be biweekly instead of weekly.  I might make it even less frequent.

 

I know they are not progressing as well as they could.  Not even close.  But I have to be realistic.  And fair to them.  They deserve a childhood, and a mom who isn't constantly stressed out and rushed.

[Arcadia]

I read the local newspaper daily with my breakfast from when I was in elementary. At least get the main page and weather report read before heading out of the door for school.

 

It's easier to get the kids to wake up early than for them to get to bed on time.

[Tsuga]

On another note, since you seem overwhelmed, I LOVE my nightly list. Every night I empty the dishwasher, wipe down counters and tables, make sure the bathroom's picked up... you get the idea. This makes the next day run smoothly. This might be inapplicable to you, but think about it.

 

We definitely do that, Slache. I am a Flylady convert. We absolutely are there on that one and my partner does a LOT to help. I mean it's not perfect but the sink/counter and main rooms are definitely picked up most days.

 

In fact, most things are pretty organized, except the practicing.

 

I don't do monthly cooking, but I do buy the pre-prepared fresh veggie packets at the store. You know the ones, they are about 50c more per pound but you save on wasted spices... it's like, veggies for stir fry, veggies for pot roast, beef stew... I need to do that more. Same as freezing but needs less space. That said, I like the creativity of cooking daily. I can't justify the time spent on watercolors, but cooking, we can justify.

 

Arcadia, I like the idea of reading the newspaper daily. We don't get the daily paper because they have the worst customer service ever, they treat their delivery people like slaves, and they robo-call like no tomorrow. Otherwise, yes. :)

 

This morning I put up a math problem on the board--an abacus problem for the kids to figure out themselves, all four of them. Wish me luck...

[Slache]

We definitely do that, Slache. I am a Flylady convert. We absolutely are there on that one and my partner does a LOT to help. I mean it's not perfect but the sink/counter and main rooms are definitely picked up most days.

 

I've never been to Flylady, but I've heard it mentioned, so I think I'll have to buzz on over and see what it's all about. Ha ha! Get it? Buzz? You know, because we're bees. I'm so clever.

 

I do like Unf*ck Your Habit (no asterisks). You might find something interesting there too.

[Tsuga]

Interesting... Flylady has a lot of the same advice.

 

Except, let me be honest. I don't wash anything that doesn't look or smell dirty, with the exception of things I will be eating off of.

 

I will say that I'm pretty okay with our home other than afterschooling stuff. This is kind of the last domain. And while it's not organized, it's not like we don't do stuff. When I read about people who literally have not homeschooled their kids for years I just think, what the heck have you been doing? Of course I realize there is depression and all kinds of stuff that goes on there, but what I'm saying is, that is not really the level of disorganization I have. Fortunately. What I need more is those extra 40 minutes to be made valuable.

 

I can do this.

[Slache]

Mkay. I just know how not being organized in one area leads to not being organized in another. I wish I could give you time. The best I can do is offer caffeine.  ;)

[IsabelC]

I've never been to Flylady, but I've heard it mentioned, so I think I'll have to buzz on over and see what it's all about. Ha ha! Get it? Buzz? You know, because we're bees. I'm so clever.

 

I do like Unf*ck Your Habit (no asterisks). You might find something interesting there too.

 

Thanks so much for introducing me to this site. I really like it, cause it has everything I liked about Flylady but none of the things that annoyed me. 

[Uff Da!]

 

 

1. I am going to be okay with getting lost and missing turns because I'm car-schooling. Yes. I will.

 

2. We are going to prioritize music practice three times per week: two weeknights and Saturday. This is more realistic.

 

 

 

These made me laugh as they are part of my plan as well.  That and keeping the house clean, getting up earlier and putting something in the crock pot before the rest of the house is moving.  I also want to do dinner studies four times a week as reading aloud during supper is the spine of our afterschooling at this point.

 

And the history crafts need to come back out before blizzards hit.....

[Tsuga]

 

 I also want to do dinner studies four times a week as reading aloud during supper is the spine of our afterschooling at this point

 

How does that work? How do you eat while reading?

 

We talk and admonish* during dinner.

 

*That came out wrong. I mean, like, "Get your elbows off the table--you washed your hands, not your sleeves!" Not like, a list of admonishments.

[Uff Da!]

I've usually eaten while making supper or before the kiddos get to the table. I enjoy my food more if I eat prior to the little ones for exactly the reasons you described above. And the kids behave better when they are focused on me instead of tormenting eachother.

[IsabelC]

I can empathize with the "talk and admonish" dinnertime.

[Tsuga]

Uff Da, that is an interesting idea. I don't think it would work for us, mainly as we eat late and we eat when it's hot, but I will keep it in mind for specific occasions. I can see how that would help with the horsing around!

[SKL]

I have tried reading aloud during dinner.  Sometimes it works well, sometimes not.  People here generally feel that interrupting during dinner reading is fair game.  Which can spoil some of the good parts of a book.  Generally I only try light reading for that reason.

 

If we're having a leisurely sit-down meal, I'll generally eat my light portion and then read.  The kids take longer to eat and they will hang around until the end of the chapter.

[Uff Da!]

nm

[kiwik]

OK. I am going to go to bed earlier and get after schooling done regularly. And we are going to make it through CHOW. We have 6 weeks off school now - I want to finish EiW3, work on 4 square organisation, keep going with multiplication and sort out ds7's problem with reading clocks.

[Tsuga]

kiwik, my kids learned how to read a clock by me giving them time limits and having an analog clock in their bedroom. "You can come out when it's eight-twenty-five." What what now? Suddenly we care about the minute hand?

 

That said it's kind of like cursive. I'd rather they had other 21st century skills.

[Angie in VA]

 We are going to prioritize music practice three times per week: two weeknights and Saturday. This is more realistic.

 

 

 

Wow, our rule is: Only practice on the days you eat. 

 

So when ds's temp was 103° last week, he drank and didn't eat, and he didn't practice. And, I confess, yesterday, b/c we were hosting family and had a lot to do, neither of the dc played, but it's a daily proposition here. My kids don't encounter critics (but they care about their teacher/profs noticing), but here's another quote on practicing:

 

 

“Miss one day of practice, I notice; miss two, the critics notice; miss three, the audience noticesâ€

[Tsuga]

Angie, how old are your children?

[kiwik]

kiwik, my kids learned how to read a clock by me giving them time limits and having an analog clock in their bedroom. "You can come out when it's eight-twenty-five." What what now? Suddenly we care about the minute hand?

 

That said it's kind of like cursive. I'd rather they had other 21st century skills.

Me too but it is a noticeable weakness in a kid who is maths oriented. I am trying to prevent weak spots as they are used as evidence he doesn't need extension. Since I can not afford to send him to the one day a week gifted extension programme any more I would like the school to meet some of his needs rather than focusing on what he can't do.

 

I might start him on cursive too. I only just found out that he missed most of the handwriting instruction because it was on the day he wasn't there.

 

And I would like to start typing but I haven't found a no frills typing tutor that is affordable and available at a reasonably low cost in NZ.

[Tsuga]

That makes sense. We did hours on one clock, minutes on the other, then overlapped them. Like if you use sharpies to draw clocks on clear plastic paper, you know? That made it easier to see what was going on, rather than explaining both simultaneously. It's actually two clocks in one.

 

We do an online typing program. Typingweb.com or something.

 

 

[Alessandra]

Please post tips during the year!

 

Only thing I could help with is chess clubs. Here is a list by state:

 

http://www.uschess.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=198

 

It's clubs that are registered with USCF, United States Chess Federation. Some small school clubs may not be on, but it is a great place to start. You can also Google [your state] chess federation.

 

There are also teachers who tutor chess vis Skype, for those in areas with little chess.

[Angie in VA]

Angie, how old are your children?

 

Sorry, I just saw this. Now they're in high school and college, but they've been taking music lessons since they were younger. First time through, dd was 6, but that teacher was not great, so we stopped for a while. Later we found a great violin teacher when dd was entering high school and ds was 9 yo. 

 

I should have included this info: they took Suzuki style lessons. 

 

ETA: When I referred to my son's fever and his not eating, that happened to be a literal application of that rule, but there have been times when my kids were sick and DID eat, but didn't practice, it's a joke, but not really a joke, kwim? Just like the saying for musicians, "If you're on time, you're late." Rehearsal start times are for the downbeat. You must arrive early to acclimate your instrument and tune and get seated and make sure your music is in order. 

 

I just realized how many things we do revolve around music: departure & arrival times, owning a dehumidifier, shopping w/ violin cases in our carts, what board breaks my kids do at TKD, etc. 

[Tsuga]

Angie, okay. I think there's an important developmental difference here.

 

My older daughter is eight. The younger is five. I believe that once you hit nine or so, there is a different level of ability to self-manage and also children can make more conscious choices about prioritization.

 

At my kids' age, it is more about introduction and getting down patterns and feeling through things. I do believe in daily practice in theory, but with sport, school, and social activities (not even that much) at five, honestly, daily is a LOT. Because remember, at four-five-six there is still a lot of nagging going on. Also I have two older step children who also have activities. My stepson practices his clarinet four times per week after school which is amazing. I'm very proud of him. But you get the idea. Four kids, one person to drive them to activities or manage activities. (My partner does before school stuff.) And then there's the housework--not my housework, which is bad enough, but let's say the nagging that goes into getting the kids to, you know, brush their teeth.

 

I think if I didn't have to nag, my children could probably be doing nuclear physics right now. That is how much energy we spend on just starting anything. LOL. I am sure this is familiar to you as well.

 

For me, I am learning guitar and trying to set an example by practicing daily, yes. And my eight year old practices easily 3x per week. But the five year old? Daily is just going to have to wait.

 

But it will come, for sure. Someday.

[Angie in VA]

Yes, I should add that my dc aren't normal in that they loved practicing. They don't currently love it as much as it's a habit. Now, if they have a seating audition coming up? Faggetaboutit. They're all over practice time!

 

I think you're doing a great job, and I'd rather keep kids happy about music lessons and practice and build up to the daily. My kids loved (and still love) that great violin teacher. She made it fun and they tasted success and worked hard to meet the next goal. (Could you try a chart w/ stickers and after X amount of daily practice, give them a treat? We never did this, but I don't think I'm above it.)

 

The Suzuki parent in me would like the child to at least listen to the pieces he's working on and will work on soon, but that's not practical or even possible for every instrument. VT used to say, if you can't play, then at least listen to your pieces. You don't take summers off of lessons w/ Suzuki either. Perhaps other styles/pedagogoes are like this too?

 

My kids are freaks when it comes to music. (And other things, lol.) DD was in 5 ensembles her senior year (plus work, TKD, volunteering, speech + debate, and a senior year chocked full of academics, including physics and calculus, and she's a music major! Turns out that pace helped prepare her for a music ed major and being in the honors program, but wow, it was hard on me, lol!). DS has no intention of majoring in music but is talented. He is in 3 ensembles during the school year, and on top of that (iow, not w/ the 3 ensembles I mentioned) he performed at two churches this month for Christmas cantatas and services. See what I mean? Freaks, but I love 'em! Between the two of them, they had 9 gigs in 18 days. That's business as usual when it comes to December for musicians.

 

*Edited a zillion times for corrections and additions. Oh, look, I obsess over things other than Broadchurch. Who knew?

 

 

[Tsuga]

Yes, we do sing the songs and we also do the movements like exercises. I need to get on it! The teacher uses Suzuki methods though I think she's not married to the Suzuki method. She doesn't advertise that way.

 

I could totally see doing music but honestly at five--my daughter has a lot of talent but the concentration, the passion isn't there. It's one reason I'm having her start early. I want her to have basic skills by the time that she becomes more of a person, you know? I would love for my children to be that into music... but I also want them to love sport.

 

Life is so hard for the polymath!

[HS Mom in NC]

I've never afterschooled, so I have nothing useful to say on that. (I'm seeing this on the "new content feature.")

 

I have kids who mastered instruments.  I suggest you stop viewing instrument practice as optional (like craft projects) and start viewing them as mandatory (like brushing your teeth.) I have found with my two musicians with very different personalities that practice time needed to be part of a predictable routine.  At first we had to try different routines to see when it really worked out best.  Then, once we figure out the best scenarios (not the perfect scenario) we scheduled for that part of the day.  That looks different for each kid.  So try some different times of day:

 

 

in the morning before school

as soon as (s)he returns from school

after (s)he takes a 30 min. break right after (s)he gets home from school

before dinner time

after dinner time

any other time you think might work out

Nothing is workable 100% of the time.  Try to find something that works 80-85% of the time and build that into your child's daily routine.

[Tsuga]

Thank you both. My attitude towards music I guess was more like sport. I feel like... I don't know, I don't want to pressure them. To be obsessive. To hothouse. When my daughter was little was when that book came out... what was it called... Tiger Mom Book. And she was NUTS. And I thought, okay, I'm obsessive naturally, and I'm competitive, and I am just deciding right now that I am not going to do that no matter how much my competitiveness as a mom calls.

 

So I think for that reason I shied away from this level of structure for music. I didn't want to yell, to pressure.

 

But HS in AZ, I have seen your posts and I know you are not crazy. :) Same with Angie. So I will reconsider. Maybe we'll make a pact.

[HS Mom in NC]

But HS in AZ, I have seen your posts and I know you are not crazy. :)

 

Either that or I'm exactly your kind of crazy.

 

Remember that there are a lot of different degrees between Tiger Mom and Completely Hands Off.  We had mandatory practice for 20-45 minutes (depending on age and skill level) 5 days a week. Your child's teacher will tell you how long your child should be practicing daily and how many days per week. Don't make it about who you want to be as parent, make it about what your teacher says your child needs to do. If you aren't going to make your child practice, then don't pay for lessons. If you're going to pay for lessons, then insist on regular practice.

 

[Tsuga]

I hear what you are saying HSMIAZ but honestly--it is a huge chore to get my kids to do anything. There is no "just" in our household. There are days of planning to facilitate cooperation, there is thinking of how to present things, there is making kids think it's their idea, there is bugging, nagging, yelling, bribing, passive-aggressive.

 

There is no, "Okay babe, time to practice violin!" And she does it because she's done it every day for her whole life.

 

At five, we are still seriously spending a half hour on shoes and no it is not a motor skills thing, or an IQ thing. They are first in their classes at almost everything. My children tied their own shoes at four. They literally will take any initiative that they perceive to be at all regular and/or my idea and try to prove that just this once they do not have to do it. Please see the other thread on compliance/obedience. I didn't used to believe in obedience. I used to believe in talking things out. But I have either created monsters who want to talk everything out, or they were born that way and this will probably at some point kill someone. "Okay, but are you sure its NINE one one? Nine? Why nine? Why not eight?"

 

Take swim classes. Easy, right? First of all, they love swim. Second of all, they have friends there. Third of all, we've been doing this or another sport every week two or three days per week since they were like, six months old. And it's not that complicated. It really isn't. The swim bag is always ready. Grab a suit from one of two places: the dresser or the clean laundry pile (sheepish grin) and put on shoes and go. You don't even need to wear more than flip-flops even if it's <25 F. Seriously. I don't care. Just. Get. In. The. Car. If you don't, no swim. Remember how we missed swim? Remember? That could happen RIGHT NOW. Right now. We're missing it. Okay, that's it, we're not going.

 

Cue tantrum.

 

Can you guess how many days we somehow find something to debate?

 

So while I get what you are saying and in theory agree, adding tasks is always about who I am as a mom. Always. Because it will be forcing, convincing, conniving, or something. There is no "mandatory" without me putting in an extreme amount of effort to make it happen because they are so strong-willed.

[HS Mom in NC]

So how do you get them to brush their teeth?

 

I have always been a big believer that doing something you don't want to do or like to do is an essential skill for real life.  Most of adult life involves doing things we'd rather not. That's how I parent.  I think there is a long list of things that are not open for discussion and if they don't comply there are consequences.  I don't engage in discussion when it isn't open for discussion. If it's time to go, it's time to go.  If your shoes need to be on, then they need to be on. No need to discuss it.   I'm not upset my children being sad or angry. Those are emotions everyone experiences and has to deal with-far be it from me to deny a child to learn to do that when appropriate.  Their feelings have no bearing on whether or not they have to do something essential.  I don't do passive-aggressive.  I do straightforward and blunt. 

 

The world does not cater to everyone's personality type, learning style, love language, feelings, desires or preferences. It's absolutely critical for everyone to learn how to adapt to things that don't suit them.  That doesn't mean never making accommodations, but it means making a conscious effort to prepare a child for reality by making them do things outside of what they want and like and how they want it and how they like it. I don't believe in magic or fairy tales or fortune or things like that.  The world is not a wish granting factory. Most of the time things will not be how we want them to be and most of the time won't have the power to change it. Most of life is hard work and tough choices.

 

I say things in a matter of fact tone  like, "You don't have to want to do it, you just have to do it." Or "No one likes cleaning their room, but most people like the result. Even if you don't, it's time. " Or "No one likes to practice but they like to be able to play an instrument well."  Or "Yeah, cleaning isn't any fun but it needs to be done.  Get to it." I never try to get them to think it's their idea.  No one wants to date, marry, work with someone who only does what they think was their idea.

 

I'm not moved by crying or tantrums or mean words or quivering lips or a child holding his or her breath. You can cry while you practice/clean up/get dressed.  You can call me every name in the book and a few trendy ones I wouldn't recognize and I don't care. You can look sad and wail and weep but you still have to do it.  Welcome to reality. Not doing it isn't an option. Here are some examples.

 

I remember telling my oldest  (about 4 at the time) to find her shoes and get them on.  Without even looking up from what she was doing she said, "I can't find them." How obnoxious.  I took her by the hand and literally dragged her from room to room saying, "Are they in here?" She was crying and wailing and sobbing, but I kept going until we had been in most rooms downstairs and then I said, "Do you want me to keep dragging you or are you going to get up and go look for them yourself?" She managed to get up to her room and find them right away. If not, I would've continued dragging into and around each room until I found them and then put my hands over hers forcing her to put them on.

 

When my middle daughter was about 3 I told her to pick up her blocks.  She refused with a flat out,"No!." I took her hand in mine and physically forced it onto each block, picking it up with my hand over hers and dragging her to the bin it went in and dropping it.  She was crying and screaming the whole time.  I did that for about 10 different individual blocks.  Then I let go of her hand and said, "Are you going to pick them up on your own or am I going to have to do it this way?" She managed to get the rest done on her own.  I was completely willing to do every single one that way if necessary.  My kids know I will follow through with it.

 

If my kid didn't get shoes on after I said it once nicely and a second time neutrally,  I would physically drag the child into wherever the shoes were, put my hand around the child's hand, forcing her to put the shoes on, then drag her to the car and physically stick her in the seat.  No amount of sobbing, crying or wailing would stop me.  I wouldn't ask a second time nor would I try to persuade the child that she should want to put on the shoes.  I wouldn't talk at all or respond to anything she had to say.

 

My youngest has trouble with a snotty attitude.  Sometimes when I say, "OK, it's time to turn off the TV and get chores done/start school/do something else" she responds with, "Fine!" Then mutters things like, "This is stupid." She loses TV for week. No one is entitled to TV.  If she decides to be snotty in response to that (it happens on occasion) she loses free time and gets extra chores.

 

When my kids are complying with doing necessary things the vast majority of the time without arguing or complaining for a good solid couple of years, then I'm willing to occasionally entertain some negotiation.  That has to be earned.

[Tsuga]

So first, I do want to say that we are very much on the same page in terms of what parenting looks like. So please try to understand that I'm merely talking about  how this plays out in my household, not whether or not I agree on the fundamentals of how and/or why we should get kids to do things.

 

Regarding brushing teeth:

 

In the time it takes to get the 5 year old to brush her teeth, she could learn a concerto over two months. I mean it is a ridiculous amount of time of me standing there, repeating, "You have this much time left to start. This much time. Now this much time. Let me remind you of the consequences if you do not brush your teeth--nothing with sugar for a day." (As per the nutrition thread, most processed foods have added sugar so that's a lot of no-nos.) She waits the whole time. Then she starts. Then she starts to debate about the toothpaste. Now, she's not allowed to debate the toothpaste. Of course not. We can't change toothpaste every night. But firmly reminding her that this is not up for debate, re-stating the consequence for dilly-dallying, implementing the consequence, and then re-starting the whole process, takes time. I do it but it's time consuming.

 

Not every night, but most nights. I think we have similar methods of consequences and aspirations for our children but I am not sure you've had children like mine.

 

They just don't give up! I have even explained the time loss situation to them. "Do you realize that if you didn't argue every little thing, we could have screen time on school nights?" But they can't stop themselves. :(

 

 

She loses TV for week.

 

A huge part of our problem with this method is that my kids don't have a lot of things I can take away because they lose them right away. Like, right away. So they are not used to TV. I can see now how my own mom ended up grounding me from books and girl scouts. That's right--she ran out of privileges to take away so quickly that she regularly resorted to taking away basic rights and then to things she actually wanted me to do. I spent three weeks without the rights to my own bedroom. Finally we were moving two states away, so in order to pack my own stuff I had to do what she asked in order to get rights to my own bedroom. My mom is a very gentle person, mind you. I hadn't done homework in five months. There is a long backstory to that but the point is--for some people simple consequences just don't change behavior.

 

You'd be amazed how quickly you end up with a life in which TV, sugar, screen time, friend time, playdates, and fun just don't exist. They just run through consequences one by one, refusing to give in. I know I'm not alone because there are parenting books specifically for this type of child.

 

I can already tell, by the fact that your kids are like, "Oh dear, no TV, I won't do that again" that they have different personalities from my children. That is okay. I have met kids like yours and I'm insanely jealous of you, actually.

 

We watch TV about 2x/month. No video games. Dessert once per week for children who've had good feedback from teacher. No screen time on weeknights. You might think bribing them with those things would incentivize them to do what I ask. LOL no.

 

I will say that I admire my children's ability to entertain themselves with nothing but plain paper and a pencil and their tenacity.

 

 

I remember telling my oldest  (about 4 at the time) to find her shoes and get them on.  Without even looking up from what she was doing she said, "I can't find them." How obnoxious.  I took her by the hand and literally dragged her from room to room saying, "Are they in here?" She was crying and wailing and sobbing, but I kept going until we had been in most rooms downstairs and then I said, "Do you want me to keep dragging you or are you going to get up and go look for them yourself?" She managed to get up to her room and find them right away. If not, I would've continued dragging into and around each room until I found them and then put my hands over hers forcing her to put them on.

 

Yep. Been there, done that. Still do that. The thing with my kids is that they don't learn from stuff like this. A typical child would process this logically. "I tried to pull this stunt, but it didn't work. I won't do it again."

 

My kids think, "I tried to pull this stunt, but it didn't work. Let me try again. And again. Eventually, I will win. Eventually, I will break her. She will see. She will see I'm right. I will never give up."

 

I know this attitude well because I had it as a child.

 

:leaving:

 

The only thing that has ever convinced my kids to do anything is peer pressure. This is why school is such a necessity for us. I know there is negative pressure but I figure, we live in a good school district and most kids have academic aspirations such as college even in grades one and two. So it has been very positive so far.

 

I do hear you. I mean there is really nothing in your post I disagree with in theory. What I'm saying is that with kids like mine, the application of this very reasonable parenting philosophy that you have described is just really, really time consuming. I'm not saying, therefore, we don't do it. We do it! Absolutely. Consistent, logical consequences, a clear line between rights and privileges. Yes. Like my kids, I will never give up, LOL!

 

But, it takes a lot of time so on school nights, when I get home at 3:30, and there is dinner and sport etc. we do not always have time to go through that whole discipline regime for one more thing. Or rather, we do, but it's not simple. It takes a lot of work.

[SKL]

The reality is that young kids don't do long days very well.

 

We're talking about a primary-school kid who has been in school all day, then has to do homework, hopefully something physical, and take care of some practical responsibilities.  On top of that you have some days when the homework / test study is extra heavy, or there's been an especially stressful discipline issue or social or family situation, or someone didn't sleep great the night before or some food doesn't agree with him or he just really wants to get back to his lego castle or doll fantasy before another whole day goes by.  I'm all for music education, but I don't think it is important enough to take up the last little bit of after-school time every single day.  A few days a week are more than enough for the majority of young kids, who are not working toward a public performance or a music scholarship.

 

In my own experience, I really loved to play - I would fight my sibs for piano time - but it was always 100% optional.  I was reluctant to put my kids into lessons in favor of waiting to see if self-motivation worked better.  I chose a middle ground.  If they want to play in their free time, that is great; but I won't take away all their free time and force them to play.  Plenty of successful adults were never required to practice piano at 8 or younger.

[SKL]

I think I would call what Binip is talking about "picking my battles," and yes, I do this too.  My kids aren't extremely hard-headed, but they have their quirks and I don't have time to fight about each one of them every day, so I don't.  I think they will grow up OK anyway.  :P

[EmilyGF]

I think people here have different goals for music!

 

I have my daughters practice 10-12 minutes, 5-6 days per week. I sit next to them the whole time (they are 6 and 8). I do not want them to be concert pianists. I want them to be able to have some level of competency and enjoy music. My son practices 45 minutes per day without being asked. 

Angie, I don't think you're helping by telling her that her children should practice daily and using all sorts of Suzuki quotes. If her goals are a concert musician, fine. However, I don't think that is what she is going for.

 

They should practice frequently enough that they make progress. If they don't, music becomes a drag.

[IsabelC]

@ Binip, sorry no wonderful advice here, but I wanted to send you hugs  :grouphug: and a large dollop of sympathy, because I know what it's like for nearly everything to be a major issue, and the frustration when 'normal' parenting techniques just don't work well with your kids. The fact is that the standard repertoire of reinforcement, consequences, and other guidance methods (let's face it, they all really boil down to different mixtures of discuss, demand, bribe and blackmail) don't actually do the trick with every child.

 

 

 

You'd be amazed how quickly you end up with a life in which TV, sugar, screen time, friend time, playdates, and fun just don't exist. They just run through consequences one by one, refusing to give in. I know I'm not alone because there are parenting books specifically for this type of child.I can already tell, by the fact that your kids are like, "Oh dear, no TV, I won't do that again" that they have different personalities from my children. That is okay. I have met kids like yours and I'm insanely jealous of you, actually.

 

 

Yep, I could have written that (except that my son doesn't like playdates). 

 

Reminds me of a week years ago, when we decided that Mr- then-barely-2 needed to stay in his bed all night (I wouldn't make that decision now, but that's a whole other post). We sought professional advice on how to 'train' him, with the proviso that we wouldn't be doing anything involving crying. We were advised that every time ds hopped out of bed and left his room, we should gently, quietly and firmly lead him back to bed. This was supposed to teach him that getting up is boring and doesn't get him any playing, attention etc. We were instructed to allow a bit of extra time for this as he might get up and leave his room 10 or even 20 times before he accepted the staying-in-bed rule. Our kid ended up coming out 215 times! And he didn't 'accept' the rule; he stopped getting out only when he had physically collapsed and couldn't climb out anymore (he couldn't even get in the last 10 or 20 times). When I phoned our mentor the next day, she said that in all her 30+ years she had never heard of a child being that determined.

 

It does get better as they get older though. I think gentle parenting is a long haul proposition. I remember when we had tooth brushing battles we were sorely tempted to simply hold the child down, sit on her and brush the teeth by sheer brute force. Because that would have been easier than going through the whole 'reasonable parent' procedure every morning and night. But we persevered, and now the kids all brush their teeth without any complaints or dramas.

 

I say things in a matter of fact tone  like, "You don't have to want to do it, you just have to do it."

 

 

Yep, I find myself saying that one sometimes. 

 

[Tsuga]

 

We sought professional advice on how to 'train' him, with the proviso that we wouldn't be doing anything involving crying. We were advised that every time ds hopped out of bed and left his room, we should gently, quietly and firmly lead him back to bed. This was supposed to teach him that getting up is boring and doesn't get him any playing, attention etc. We were instructed to allow a bit of extra time for this as he might get up and leave his room 10 or even 20 times before he accepted the staying-in-bed rule. Our kid ended up coming out 215 times!

 

I need his name to make sure our kids never get married. That is my kid. Sleep training... no. I started earlier with the second and she didn't stay in bed until three and no, I never gave in. Ever. Not once, not even when they were sick because I knew what a battle it would be afterward. It just did not work. For the record I do know someone who co-slept with a (single, same sex) parent until she got married! She never grew out of it. This is someone I know very personally and she herself and her mom told me about it. :huh:

 

I think that the reason I'm tempted to add daily practice is this:

 

 

They should practice frequently enough that they make progress. If they don't, music becomes a drag.

 

Mine don't need to. They make average progress without practice. I didn't practice either. I was second and third chair, out of fourteen flautists, and in college, in the middle, without ever practicing at home.

 

I don't know how that is possible. Natural talent I guess. But it only gets you so far. I want my kids to enjoy their talent by developing good habits!

 

 

Angie, I don't think you're helping by telling her that her children should practice daily and using all sorts of Suzuki quotes.

 

 

 

I appreciate the musicians' perspective! I just think that at some point, the reality of B&M schooling and a full-time working mom hits the reality of sport+music+strong-willed-kids and something has to give. Angie homeschooled so music could be during the day. That's not our reality so while I appreciate her advice it is just not going to be fully applicable at this time.

[LaughingCat]

I think there is such a huge mental change between 5 yo and 10 yo that it is not even the same discussion ---  whether it's about practicing daily or co-sleeping.

 

For my own 5 yo - the rule is if you don't do the work, you don't do the activity.  So at that age I do treat music same as sport - because currently the only extra she cares enough to do what she is supposed to is swimming, so that is all she does.    However,  by 9 or 10 then music will become part of 'school' -- a required activity with required daily practice.   

[musicianmom]

*

Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom