Help me plan a Latin path from grammar to rhetoric?

[lea1]

(ETA: Also, I am only interested in Parts to whole Latin, as per WTM)  I have done tons of searches on this and have read lots of threads and am just not getting it. Can we talk about the different paths one might take to get their children from, say, 4th grade Latin into high school Latin, to the point where they would be well prepared to read Latin works or continue Latin studies in University?

 

I have seen the recommendations in TWTM but I really want classical pronunciation and it seems that LC does not take that approach.  We do not use Latin in our church services so I can go either way, as far as it having religious content or being secular but I am looking for classical pronunciation.

 

Thanks!

I think the "baby steps to Latin" approach just wastes a ton of time that could be spent usefully doing all kinds of other age-appropriate stuff.  All of the elementary age Latin programs take years and years to cover what a few weeks of high school Latin covers.  So, my approach is

 

1) Wait until 7th or 8th grade, when they are ready to study Latin seriously, at a serious pace.

2) Start a high school level program then, with something like LNM or Wheelock.

[lea1]

I think the "baby steps to Latin" approach just wastes a ton of time that could be spent usefully doing all kinds of other age-appropriate stuff.  All of the elementary age Latin programs take years and years to cover what a few weeks of high school Latin covers.  So, my approach is

 

1) Wait until 7th or 8th grade, when they are ready to study Latin seriously, at a serious pace.

2) Start a high school level program then, with something like LNM or Wheelock.

 

Thanks for your opinion but I  would really like to use this thread to discuss paths  from around 4th grade into high school Latin with classical pronunciation.

[Laura Corin]

What happened with Calvin (who is now at university, studying Classics):

 

I agree with the PP that starting early is not necessary.  Calvin enjoyed Minimus however - he saw me looking at it on the website and asked to give it a try.  We did book one when he was eight or so, then some of book two.  At that point, we were feeling bogged down: too much vocabulary, not enough grammar/structure.  We moved on to Latin Prep when he was ten-ish.  That's the earliest that I would recommend starting it - age 11 or 12 would probably be better.  We didn't do a book a year: between age 10 and 13 we did the whole of books one and two and half of book three.  We did the latter twice over, because we weren't getting it fully.

 

Then Calvin went off to school.  The school used Cambridge Latin, with extra grammar added in by the teacher.  They also studied extracts from Virgil and other works (not using a textbook - the teacher taught from his own expertise).  After that he moved on the studying the IB Latin Higher course.

 

Latin Prep gave him a very good basis.  By book three, however, I was starting to be out of my depth.  I needed to outsource - even if he had not gone to school, I would have found him a tutor.  YMMV.  

 

Minimus, Latin Prep and Cambridge Latin all use classical pronunciation.

 

ETA: Latin Prep is parts to whole; Minimus and Cambridge (as published) are largely whole to parts.

 

L

[Slache]

Many people more educated than I argue that it's very easy to learn one pronunciation through another because they're so similar. I agree that baby steps are a waste of time and plan to teach Spanish in the grammar stage because I'm fluent, we live among native speakers, and it supposedly makes a great pre-Latin. That being said...

 

 

I would stick with one company, not switching back and forth.

A recent thread had a comment stating that SSL II makes LFC I much more accessible.

I've read several times that LFC is very independent.

I loved GSWL and there is a sequel coming out but who knows when.

 

 

My plan is to start LFC in 4th, using LFC I, II and III, followed by LA! I, II, and III. If I wanted baby steps I would start SSL in 2nd, or possibly 1st and do GSWL between SSL and LFC. Oh the acronyms! :willy_nilly:

[SarahW]

I think the "baby steps to Latin" approach just wastes a ton of time that could be spent usefully doing all kinds of other age-appropriate stuff.  All of the elementary age Latin programs take years and years to cover what a few weeks of high school Latin covers.  So, my approach is

 

1) Wait until 7th or 8th grade, when they are ready to study Latin seriously, at a serious pace.

2) Start a high school level program then, with something like LNM or Wheelock.

 

 

I'm not sure what programs you are referring to, but it's not true for them all.

 

This is one comparison of elementary programs to the NLE. Doing the intro exam in grade 5 (if one begins LfC in 3rd) is nothing to sneeze at. And that's a very conservative chart. According to the first review of LfCB here, just A & B is enough to get a perfect score on the intro exam. Looking at the s&s of LfC I believe that is possible.

 

I totally know there are "baby step" Latin programs out there. But it is quite misleading to characterize every elementary program as only offering a few weeks of material.

[lea1]

I updated my first post to include that I am only interested in Latin programs that are parts to whole, as per TWTM. I am not sure which of those mentioned already are parts to whole though.  Thanks for your responses.

[lea1]

I was wondering about LfC and was looking at the online samples last night.  So are LfC and LA! both parts to whole and use classical pronunciation?

[wapiti]

One way to come up with possible paths is to work backwards.  What high school program(s) might you consider and when would you consider starting it?  The reason I suggest this is that most high school programs assume no prior instruction, which leaves a lot of room for flexibility in what you use for prior exposure and *when*.

 

Many high school programs can be started in middle school, at the same or slower pace. In other words, what I would *not* do is Latin for 4th thru 8th and then start a high school program in 9th - five years of Latin prior to even starting high school Latin sounds like beating a dead horse.  What I might do, depending on the student:  some sort of introductory program in 5th or 6th and then start a high school program in 6th or 7th, at whatever pace works for the particular student.  Note that any student beginning Latin in 9th should still be able to read Latin works before the end of high school and/or continue studying Latin in college.  (If I recall correctly from my own high school Latin, we started reading Caesar in Latin II, no elementary or middle school Latin required... If you're shooting for AP, as far as I know that's still doable in 12th after starting Latin from scratch in 9th.)

 

For an introductory program, I highly recommend GSWL (grammar and translation approach, which I assume is what you mean by parts-to-whole).  More than any other curriculum/resource in any subject, this has got to be my most unequivocal recommendation.  It's short, though, and even taking a whole year for it would string it out (not necessarily a bad idea, but not exactly necessary, either).  Good for any age once the student is aware of some basic grammar.  I think it's absolutely perfect for getting an understanding of how the language works before starting a high school program, so the student can hit the ground running.

 

Possible high school programs:  Henle (not secular, but pretty doable for a middle schooler), Wheelock's (tougher for younger students, so I'm not sure about starting until late middle school), Latin for the New Millennium (an intriguing blended approach, with both traditional grammar and translation and some immersion reading), Artes Latinae (I have no clue about it).  I would also look into on-line classes and what those classes use.

 

Cambridge is whole to parts, so that's out (that's what my dd's prospective high school uses).  My dd did GSWL in 3rd and started Henle in 4th, though we did not continue homeschooling after 5th.  She is strongly considering returning to Latin in high school.

I'm not sure what programs you are referring to, but it's not true for them all.

 

This is one comparison of elementary programs to the NLE. Doing the intro exam in grade 5 (if one begins LfC in 3rd) is nothing to sneeze at.

 

The NLE intro exam covers less than a half a year of high school Latin, (and way too much culture/history, but that's just my opinion). Taking three years to cover something that could be covered in half a year later strikes me as a waste of time, when the child could be reading, studying science, or playing in a ditch.  Again and again, I see Moms here whose students are burned out on Latin by ninth grade, having taking intro upon intro, and never gotten to the good stuff.

 

And don't just trust what I have to say, but consider this quote from the Lukeion folks, who have forgotten more about classics than I'll ever learn:

 

There are many programs now available for younger students. In our experience, however, these programs demand a lot of busy work but deliver very little in the way of learning the functional nuts-and-bolts of Classical languages. Students are not generally prepared to master these languages until they have reached the logic stage. You will accomplish much more in a fraction of the time if you wait until your student is 12 to 15 before you start formal instruction in Latin and Greek. Better still, waiting to start these logic based languages may mean your student will enjoy them more.

 

[SarahW]

(ETA: Also, I am only interested in Parts to whole Latin, as per WTM)  I have done tons of searches on this and have read lots of threads and am just not getting it. Can we talk about the different paths one might take to get their children from, say, 4th grade Latin into high school Latin, to the point where they would be well prepared to read Latin works or continue Latin studies in University?

 

I have seen the recommendations in TWTM but I really want classical pronunciation and it seems that LC does not take that approach.  We do not use Latin in our church services so I can go either way, as far as it having religious content or being secular but I am looking for classical pronunciation.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Most of the elementary programs are designed to "lead" to one of the major upper-level programs, so it's good to look at both the lower and upper programs and see if they appeal to you. Not that you can't switch midstream or anything, but if you want to start with a plan in mind, it's worth considering.

 

MP's LC and FFL are designed to lead to Henle.

 

CAP suggests LfC be followed by Oxford, Cambridge, or Ecce Romani. 

 

CAP's Latin Alive! is based on Wheelock's. If I'm reading that right, it covers everything Wheelock covers, so you could then move into post-Wheelock reading.

 

Wheelock is suggested for those done with Canon Press's Latin series.

 

Minimus is published by Cambridge, so maybe the Cambridge Latin course would be a good continuation? Not personally sure.

 

Little Latin Readers also lead to Henle, and are very Catholic and ecclesiastical only. This is a "baby steps" program, but could easily be accelerated. Like, drastically accelerated. Could be expensive to do that, though. Oh, and I guess they could be classified as whole to parts, but if you do the drill/activity books first they're easily parts to whole.

 

Others could probably add on info about other programs.

 

But yeah, you don't want to waste time switching around from one little intro program to another and another. Eventually you need to get arithmetic done and move on to algebra, so to speak. Picking one program that ends up where you want to go and sticking with it (as long as it continues to be a good fit) is a good idea.

[kiwik]

I second the work backwards approach. Choose your high school text and then how you need to get there.

[lea1]

Most of the elementary programs are designed to "lead" to one of the major upper-level programs, so it's good to look at both the lower and upper programs and see if they appeal to you. Not that you can't switch midstream or anything, but if you want to start with a plan in mind, it's worth considering.

 

MP's LC and FFL are designed to lead to Henle.

 

CAP suggests LfC be followed by Oxford, Cambridge, or Ecce Romani. 

 

CAP's Latin Alive! is based on Wheelock's. If I'm reading that right, it covers everything Wheelock covers, so you could then move into post-Wheelock reading.

 

Wheelock is suggested for those done with Canon Press's Latin series.

 

Minimus is published by Cambridge, so maybe the Cambridge Latin course would be a good continuation? Not personally sure.

 

Little Latin Readers also lead to Henle, and are very Catholic and ecclesiastical only. This is a "baby steps" program, but could easily be accelerated. Like, drastically accelerated. Could be expensive to do that, though. Oh, and I guess they could be classified as whole to parts, but if you do the drill/activity books first they're easily parts to whole.

 

Others could probably add on info about other programs.

 

But yeah, you don't want to waste time switching around from one little intro program to another and another. Eventually you need to get arithmetic done and move on to algebra, so to speak. Picking one program that ends up where you want to go and sticking with it (as long as it continues to be a good fit) is a good idea.

 

This is very helpful SarahW, thanks for taking the time to write it all out.  Sounds like working backwards is a good way to go.

 

I will have to go back and reread what TWTM says about starting Latin at an earlier age.  I was thinking it was so they would finish it at an earlier age in high school and could focus on other things at that time but I could be totally off on that. 

 

Thanks again for this.

 

 

[wapiti]

I will have to go back and reread what TWTM says about starting Latin at an earlier age.  I was thinking it was so they would finish it at an earlier age in high school and could focus on other things at that time but I could be totally off on that. 

 

I don't recall what the WTM says (nor would I really care, as IMO it doesn't hold that much weight in the area of relatively standardized-content high school level coursework).  However, my guess is that there probably aren't a whole lot of students, unless they're otherwise generally advanced, getting beyond, say, Latin II by the end of 8th.  For students who can do that, that would leave Latin III and AP Latin for high school, so that the AP exam could be done at the end of 10th grade (or, say, Latin III in 9th and ending there).  If the student is up to it, starting early is a perfectly fine plan IMO to get foreign language out of the way for the rest of high school, but there's only so much earlier that is going to make sense considering the difficulty level.  It's not as though a great many students are capable of getting through Latin III or IV by the end of 8th - high school level means just that.  A few might, but not many.

 

Off the cuff, I'd guess that starting a high-school-level program in 6th could comfortably put a serious student through Latin II by the end of 8th, but not likely beyond that.  (Serious as in 1 hour or more per day studying Latin.)  Unless the student is exceptionally advanced across the board, I would not consider starting most high school programs prior to 6th, though of course there are exceptions to everything.

 

Eta, this is a topic I think is worth getting BTDT advice from people on the high school board - you might cross-post over there.  Examples of random threads that might provide some food for thought as you think this over (there are more, of course):

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/529010-some-advice-on-ds-latin-please/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/528316-x-post-latin-progression-question/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/516892-best-latin-program-for-high-school/

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/464244-which-homeschool-latin-programs-prepare-for-wheelocks/

[SeaConquest]

I was planning to use a baby steps approach -- Song School Latin 1 & 2, followed by Minimus 1 & 2, Getting Started With Latin, Lively Latin, then Lukeion to AP. This may not be the wisest approach, and I am sensitive to the issue of burnout, but my son is very interested in learning Latin. He thinks it's cool that he has a secret language. My goals in the early years of Latin are simply to generate interest and assist with modern language study (Spanish, French, and English). This is my first time teaching Latin, and I am a baby homeschooler overall, so I cannot say if this approach is the prudent path. I figure that we will evaluate and make adjustments along the way.

[KrissiK]

I think the "baby steps to Latin" approach just wastes a ton of time that could be spent usefully doing all kinds of other age-appropriate stuff. All of the elementary age Latin programs take years and years to cover what a few weeks of high school Latin covers. So, my approach is

 

1) Wait until 7th or 8th grade, when they are ready to study Latin seriously, at a serious pace.

2) Start a high school level program then, with something like LNM or Wheelock.

Well, I have to respectfully disagree. Starting early, and slowly, I believe more firmly implants knowledge into a child's mind. My children, who have started with Prima Latina and have been studying with that program for many years now "think Latin". I "think Latin" because I have a had 4 years now of studying it in a gentle, yet thorough way. Not many people remember much of a language if they started in high school, unless they really latched on and kept up with it. I'm sure we all remember so much from our high school Spanish classes. All I remember is "sacan sus tereas, por favor" (take out your homework, please) in that screechy nasal voice my Spanish teacher had. Studying Latin with an early learners program is age appropriate (the focus on the early years is on learning the vocabulary, so when the student is older and working through the actual grammar and translations, then he knows that "nauta" is sailor and "regina" is queen and he doesn't have to look that up, too) and certainly not a waste of time. And, regarding burn-out.... between doing the assignment, reciting the vocabulary and the prayers and listening to the CD, my third grader spends about 10 minutes a day on Prima Latina. Not exactly headed toward Latin burn-out. My son, who is in Second Form, spends much more time, but we do it together and we actually have a good time.

[lea1]

Well, dh and I made a decision to follow TWTM classical approach to our homeschool when our kids were still in diapers.  We have a lot of respect for their opinion and they have yet to steer us wrong.  When something doesn't fit us, we studiously forge our own path but we have yet to stray from their recommendations very far and, so far, it has been a success so we will stick with what works for us.  Of course everyone is different and YMMV, to each his own, etc.   

 

That being said, I have reread TWTM to refresh my memory of why they felt it was valuable to start Latin in 3rd or 4th grade and we will definitely continue to follow the path they blazed.

 

From what I have read, LfC may be the direction for us.  I will be researching it and, if anyone has anything else to add, I am all ears....although I wish we could stick to the question asked rather than debate when is the best time to begin a study of Latin.

[SarahW]

This is very helpful SarahW, thanks for taking the time to write it all out.  Sounds like working backwards is a good way to go.

 

I will have to go back and reread what TWTM says about starting Latin at an earlier age.  I was thinking it was so they would finish it at an earlier age in high school and could focus on other things at that time but I could be totally off on that. 

 

Thanks again for this.

 

 

 

 

Starting early does open up some options, I think. We're moving quickly through SSL2, so I'm planning to supplement with the Little Latin Readers and go through LfC (we don't use VP for history, so I'm ambivalent about the LfC readers). If that plan works out well, we can start Henle in 6th, and then Henle IV would be done in 10th(-ish). That's my long range plan, we'll see how it pans out, lol.

 

CP has also expressed interest in Greek, so now that we have Latin on it's way, I'm planning to start SSG this next year and then go through an elementary Greek program (hopefully CAP is planning to complete GfC???) and then start a "real" Greek book in Jr. High and see how far we get in high school.

 

With both languages over the "beginner hump" it may be possible to add a modern European language for high school credit. We'll see.

 

One advantage of the above that I see, besides the mundane things like test scores and credits, is that you may be able to do some of the high school "great books" reading in the original languages. I found an interesting program online recently that leads a student through reading Euclid in Greek, and explains the math he is doing along the way. The original WTM had Euclid listed for high school science, which doesn't really work these days, but as high school reading in Greek, yes, that's totally awesome.

 

I feel comfortable with this plan, but I took a lot of advanced Greek courses and my kid is interested in languages. What works for you and your kids may be different. But I don't see any harm in setting a goal and trying to achieve it.

[SarahW]

The NLE intro exam covers less than a half a year of high school Latin, (and way too much culture/history, but that's just my opinion). Taking three years to cover something that could be covered in half a year later strikes me as a waste of time, when the child could be reading, studying science, or playing in a ditch.  Again and again, I see Moms here whose students are burned out on Latin by ninth grade, having taking intro upon intro, and never gotten to the good stuff.

 

And don't just trust what I have to say, but consider this quote from the Lukeion folks, who have forgotten more about classics than I'll ever learn:

 

 

Well, I disagree with both you and Lukeion. Learning a language is completely "age appropriate" for children -  they do it naturally. As opposed to reading, which kids in the bush may never learn to do even after they've become fluent in a dozen languages.

 

By the same logic, the Bluedorns are right about math too. Why teach division and fractions before the kid is already ready to do algebra? They'll just pick it up in a week or two.

 

A grammar-intensive language course (which most parts-to-whole course are) could be tough for kids who struggle with grammar. Or, studying Latin grammar could help them understand English grammar. Sometimes that happens. Most of these programs actually intend to also teach English grammar, and they do.

 

But I don't think there is a magical time for kids to learn grammar either soo....

 

And I think there is a HUGE advantage for native English speakers to spend a lot of time on a declined language. When you show up for Greek 1 class and haven't got a clue what the word "nominative" means, or what it does, you are at an enormous disadvantage (speaking from experience here). A not-scary low-pressure introduction to these ideas over a long period of time pays large dividends in the end (speaking of the experience of some of my classmates here, taking Greek with a native Russian speaker is a good way to feel like an ignoramus).

 

Americans (in general) approach languages like it is some scary beast with secret dangers inside that must be treated with kids gloves and is somehow magical to learn. It's not. There's nothing wrong with playing with languages and becoming comfortable with how they work, just like there's nothing wrong with playing with math and building long-term math fluency.

 

I agree with you about doing numerous intro programs and then burning out. But SOME intro programs do make it possible to accelerate through the beginning of a "full" program, meaning that the student gets to reading real texts that much faster. That's nothing but good.

[Ethel Mertz]

Here is our Latin progression and future plans, based on a parts to whole and classical pronunciation.

 

Started in 3rd with Song School Latin I. Would have followed with SSL2 if it had been out then. Instead we went to Minimus and didn't last long with that program. Minimus is whole to parts. The mouse was cute though. Then we went to the Big Book of Lively Latin. Unfortunately, DS found the instructor very boring and just floundered.

 

In 5th, we started Latin for Children A. I wish we had just stuck with CAP products all the way through. Our plan now is to continue through LFC-B and then switch to Latin Alive. Once done with Latin Alive, we may continue on with A Vergil Workbook, by Katharine Bradley and Vergil’s Aeneid: Selections from books 1, 2, 4, 6, 10, and 12.

 

BTW, with CAP products you can choose either an ecclesiastical or classical pronunciation.

[Slache]

Here is our Latin progression and future plans, based on a parts to whole and classical pronunciation.

 

Started in 3rd with Song School Latin I. Would have followed with SSL2 if it had been out then. Instead we went to Minimus and didn't last long with that program. Minimus is whole to parts. The mouse was cute though. Then we went to the Big Book of Lively Latin. Unfortunately, DS found the instructor very boring and just floundered.

 

In 5th, we started Latin for Children A. I wish we had just stuck with CAP products all the way through. Our plan now is to continue through LFC-B and then switch to Latin Alive. Once done with Latin Alive, we may continue on with A Vergil Workbook, by Katharine Bradley and Vergil’s Aeneid: Selections from books 1, 2, 4, 6, 10, and 12.

 

BTW, with CAP products you can choose either an ecclesiastical or classical pronunciation.

 

Why are you skipping LFC C?

[Ethel Mertz]

Why are you skipping LFC C?

 

If I recall correctly, I read somewhere (probably on the CAP site?) that after LFC A&B, an older student would do fine starting Latin Alive 1. DS will be finishing 8th grade by the time he would finish LFC C. I haven't totally decided to skip LFC C. I'll see how things are going by the end of LFC B. I sure wish I could remember where I read that recommendation.

[lea1]

I have spent the last couple of hours looking over LfC's website and reading some of the resources they provide for free and I am very impressed.  I will continue my research but I am really liking what I see on their website.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback.  This has been very helpful to me.  Much appreciated.

[StartingOver]

We have or are using Getting Started With Latin, Lively Latin 1, and Lively Latin 2. I am thrilled with our progress so far. All in classical pronunciation.

 

I am not sure where we go from here yet. Latin book one and Latin Book two?? Linney's Latin Class??  Wheelocks?? I am just not sure. Need to make a decision soon. My goal is to have them reading original literature and expanding vocabulary. I am thrilled with our progress so far. 

[SarahW]

If I recall correctly, I read somewhere (probably on the CAP site?) that after LFC A&B, an older student would do fine starting Latin Alive 1. DS will be finishing 8th grade by the time he would finish LFC C. I haven't totally decided to skip LFC C. I'll see how things are going by the end of LFC B. I sure wish I could remember where I read that recommendation.

 

 

I remember reading about a "bridge" program, but I am pretty sure what I am thinking of is a bridge between LC2 and SFL (allowing the student to skip FFL).

 

Since LA covers all of Wheelock, I think your son could switch whenever he's ready for a faster pace. It would be nice if CAP also had a bridge program between LfC and LA allowing the student to skip LA1 rather than, you know, start all over at the beginning again. I guess they think the review and more practice helps? Maybe...

[nannyaunt]

Latin Road to English Grammar, which I understand is an academically rigorous program, has a Bridge program.  That is all I know though. We are not old enough for Latin yet :)

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

We use Jenney's Latin.  It is a high school text, but highly grammatical and very parts to whole.  So, if your student knows their grammar, they can start anytime with Jenney's.  My son's first year in Jenney's was fourth grade.  We did the first six chapters very slowly and very fun over about 6 months.  The next year we reviewed the first six chapters, then jumped right on in and finished a good 3/4 of the book.  Each year we would go back and review, then jump on forward.  It made for a great and very strong foundation.  The books are older, but have been revised with color pictures.  You read summaries of classical works using the vocabulary from the very beginning.  Mainly doing little bits each day (like 15 minutes), you can really get the foundational concepts in a completely approachable way.

 

We have used Getting Started with Latin for oral work, where I read the sentence and Ds translates without writing anything down or seeing the print.  It was quite wonderful that way.  We use Cambridge Latin that way as well.  Cambridge specifically is nice this way because it has full paragraphs which can be read.  My son likes the parts to whole language approach, so using Cambridge for anything else would be frustrating.

 

I have found the best thing about the early introduction and slow progression was that my son has an intuitive sense of the language.  Yes, it has taken us more time.  We could have just put Jenney's away till he was in 7th or 8th, then busted through it.  However, our goal is not for the fastest time through a text.  Our goal is for a love of learning, a deep enjoyment of content, and a sense that the knowledge is what makes life rich and full.  Latin is part of that for my son.

[lea1]

If I end up using LfC Primer A with two children and I am learning along with them, which/how many books do I need to purchase?  I am planning to get the DVD/CD's, the activity book and the history reader....and possibly the flash cards.  Would I need multiple primers and activity books? Anything else?

[EndOfOrdinary]

Check your library!  Ours had Spanish for Children so we only had to purchase the workbook.

[Slache]

Don't forget to check out Latin for Parents. Or Teachers. Or Adults. Something. It's by CAP.

[lea1]

Check your library!  Ours had Spanish for Children so we only had to purchase the workbook.

 

How long are you allowed to keep it checked out?  I don't think that would work at our library because I would not be able to keep it as long as we would need it.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Our library allows you to renew up to three times.  That is nine weeks on a regular card and 18 weeks on my teacher card.  You can check it out in the fashion as much as you would like.  There were not too many people carrying about it so we were able to return it for a two or three week break and then use it again.

[SarahW]

Would I need multiple primers and activity books? Anything else?

 

Yes, both are consumable, so each student would need their own.

 

Do check out the free resources page and headadventure land. If your children despise crossword puzzles and love computer games, I would suggest the new headadventureland program over the activity book.

[mamaraby]

I'm just lurking. Ds is in 4th right now and loves Latin. We're using Lively Latin, but at some point I'll need to figure out "what next?" It has to be secular (classical pronunciation) so I was glad to see your thread. :0)

[lea1]

I have Lively Latin also and had planned to use it after GSWL but, after researching and reading all I could find on about each of them, I decided to switch now to something we can stick with for the long term.  We are at around the 47th lesson in GSWL but I have bought the materials now to switch to Latin for Children in January when we start back up again.

[Haiku]

My best suggestion is to get your grammar solid before beginning Latin. I don't agree with classical curriculum providers who say that Latin can be taught in place of English grammar.

[Hunter]

I was lucky enough to have some Latin in high school that was slow and steady and grammar based. It's how I learned grammar, as I hadn't had any earlier. People here would freak at how little was covered in Latin 1 and 2, but if gave me the foundation to confidently self-educate later on.

 

My school was kind of a zoo. The Latin teacher closed her door and provided a bit of an oasis. She didn't taint our oasis with rigor. She started where we were at, and moved us along at OUR pace.

 

Henle is my favorite book. I just use it for ME, when teaching early grade students, but use it directly with upper grade students. It has great diagramming lessons, and was my first real textbook on diagramming.

 

My son was 2E and I often didn't know for sure what he could and could not do. He learned enough from Henle to enjoy reading Loeb classics. Maybe he was just reading the English, or not reading at all. I don't think so, though. He didn't read much aloud to me, but I saw him reading aloud both Latin and Greek to his little cousins who hero worshipped him for his ability to read them the Loeb's.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031

[SarahW]

My best suggestion is to get your grammar solid before beginning Latin. I don't agree with classical curriculum providers who say that Latin can be taught in place of English grammar.

 

 

Well, I agree that Latin doesn't take the place of grammar instruction. And if you're a 9th grade student sitting down to Henle for the first time with no language background, knowing what a noun and verb are is a huge boon.

 

However, as far as I can tell the "classical curriculum providers" are NOT replacing grammar with Latin. If you look at the sample of SSL2 here, you'll see on pages 8, 12 and 16 an explanation of what a verb is, and tips for identifying verbs in English. The word "remember" is used here to refer to SSL1, which also taught about nouns and verbs. It's not like they throw Latin verbs at kids and expect them to figure out that English also has verbs.

 

Now, my son finished FLL2 last year, so all the grammar in SSL2 so far has been review. Would he pick it up if this was his first exposure to it? I can't say. But I think for some kids it could work out fine, and for some kids also seeing the grammar in Latin could help them understand the way English works better.

[KrissiK]

I would say that Latin definitely reinforces what a good grammar program has taught. My kids are doing R&S grammar and Memoria Press's Latin program, starting Prima Latina in third grade. I think the two programs dovetail quite nicely. I wouldn't drop a traditional English grammar program, though, expecting a Latin grammar program to cover it. Good English grammar is a tool that a child needs to have and know in order to study Latin grammar. They should know it first in English and then use it in Latin. The two should not be happening simultaneously.

 

There is tremendous benefit to studying Latin. More than just the fact that you are studying a language. But if you are going to rush through it, or try to cut corners or not take it seriously, you might as well just forget it. My kids are smart, but they are not academically inclined. They do their schoolwork so they can get on to other things, like playing. We take Latin seriously. We do recitations every day. But they don't complain, they like it, they do it, they understand it. And I think that if a family is going to study Latin, and be successful, you have believe in the benefit, take it slow and steady, and choose a program and do it, as written.

[Ethel Mertz]

For anyone who is thinking about using Lively Latin, the author said she was going to get the 3rd level out in about a year or so.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I do not know exactly what you were planning on using the Latin for, but when my son became highly interested in a Classics major, I looked into what was entailed. For many of the colleges not only wanted the reading and writing, but also speaking/listening skills. This was something I never considered. I mean, it's Latin. Anyway, we have since added oral work and it is really helping with the whole deal. Interestingly, three of the colleges required listening/speaking skills not only to Classics majors, but just if the student was going to call Latin their high school foreign language.

 

Obviously, it is a ways off, but it startled me and changed how we learned the language. I thought I might pass that on.

[serendipitous journey]

(ETA: Also, I am only interested in Parts to whole Latin, as per WTM)  I have done tons of searches on this and have read lots of threads and am just not getting it. Can we talk about the different paths one might take to get their children from, say, 4th grade Latin into high school Latin, to the point where they would be well prepared to read Latin works or continue Latin studies in University?

 

I have seen the recommendations in TWTM but I really want classical pronunciation and it seems that LC does not take that approach.  We do not use Latin in our church services so I can go either way, as far as it having religious content or being secular but I am looking for classical pronunciation.

 

Thanks!

 

Just to mention (again -- I saw this upthread): Memoria Press' First Form Latin (for grade 4 and up -- followed by Second, Third and Fourth Forms) is parts-to-whole and rec'd by the 3rd ed WTM: SWB said she didn't originally recommend it because the videos, which help enormously if the teacher doesn't already know Latin, were not available.  Now that they are, she found it a strong program.  (as I recall)

 

We are using FFL this year, for 4th grade.  We have previously used Song School Latin for familiarity, and GSWL orally (English-to-Latin and reverse); we did not complete GSWL before beginning FFL, though.  We bought the Classical Pronunciation CD for the program; the videos are ecclesiastical. 

 

I hope to get my hands on some Latin Prep materials from Galore Park this year, and supplement our grammar-based FFL with some reading-based work too.  But plan to keep FFL as our base program, and perhaps our only one. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

I do not know exactly what you were planning on using the Latin for, but when my son became highly interested in a Classics major, I looked into what was entailed. For many of the colleges not only wanted the reading and writing, but also speaking/listening skills. This was something I never considered. I mean, it's Latin. Anyway, we have since added oral work and it is really helping with the whole deal. Interestingly, three of the colleges required listening/speaking skills not only to Classics majors, but just if the student was going to call Latin their high school foreign language.

 

Obviously, it is a ways off, but it startled me and changed how we learned the language. I thought I might pass that on.

 

Calvin did a lot of poetry for the IB Latin course, including lots of work on speaking the poetry - expressing the stress and length of the syllables orally.  He hadn't done much orally previous to that, and I don't know if he has since he went to university.  He's asleep now, but I'll ask him later.

[Laura Corin]

I hope to get my hands on some Latin Prep materials from Galore Park this year, and supplement our grammar-based FFL with some reading-based work too.  But plan to keep FFL as our base program, and perhaps our only one. 

 

Just so you know - it wasn't clear from what you wrote - Latin Prep is also grammar based.  For reading based, you might want to look at Cambridge.

[LaCEmom]

Can anyone comment on using GSWL within the CAP Latin sequence? Would it be helpful or redundant? We're using SSL now and planning to continue on with LfC & probably Latin Alive, but I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to do GSWL between SSL2 and LfCA?

[SarahW]

I do not know exactly what you were planning on using the Latin for, but when my son became highly interested in a Classics major, I looked into what was entailed. For many of the colleges not only wanted the reading and writing, but also speaking/listening skills. This was something I never considered. I mean, it's Latin. Anyway, we have since added oral work and it is really helping with the whole deal. Interestingly, three of the colleges required listening/speaking skills not only to Classics majors, but just if the student was going to call Latin their high school foreign language.

 

Obviously, it is a ways off, but it startled me and changed how we learned the language. I thought I might pass that on.

 

 

I spent time in Classics department, though I only took Greek, and while we weren't expected to converse in ancient Greek, when we translated in class we were always expected to read the Greek text out loud first. How to speak the Greek was just a matter of imitating the professor. Which works okay if you only have one prof, but when I got to grad school and took a course with a prof who spoke in Byzantine, it was a bit awkward!

 

Latin is "spoken" more than ancient Greek, so I'd bet it's more important to have verbal skills in Latin.

 

But whatever the dead language, it should still be spoken, even if it's just saying the sentences for translating out loud. Which is another reason why it doesn't really work to have a student self-study these languages by themselves.

[SarahW]

Can anyone comment on using GSWL within the CAP Latin sequence? Would it be helpful or redundant? We're using SSL now and planning to continue on with LfC & probably Latin Alive, but I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to do GSWL between SSL2 and LfCA?

 

SSL2 covers all the grammar of the first unit of LFCA and a good bit of the vocab. I think it would be redundant to also have GSWL in there.

[serendipitous journey]

Just so you know - it wasn't clear from what you wrote - Latin Prep is also grammar based.  For reading based, you might want to look at Cambridge.

 

Thank you, Laura!  I'm glad you added this.  I had thought it included _some_ reading, while teaching grammar/vocab explicitly also, and FFL has essentially none; and generally I am liking using Galore Park materials to support our work (English, science, math).

 

Also, regarding the OP path-to-rhetoric: I wasn't clear in my first post, but Memoria Press Latin materials move onto rhetoric after the _ Form Latin series; they use Henle. 

[lea1]

Thank you, Laura!  I'm glad you added this.  I had thought it included _some_ reading, while teaching grammar/vocab explicitly also, and FFL has essentially none; and generally I am liking using Galore Park materials to support our work (English, science, math).

 

Also, regarding the OP path-to-rhetoric: I wasn't clear in my first post, but Memoria Press Latin materials move onto rhetoric after the _ Form Latin series; they use Henle. 

 

Thanks.  I had looked at MP but I really wanted the DVD teacher that used classical pronunciation. 

[Laura Corin]

Thank you, Laura!  I'm glad you added this.  I had thought it included _some_ reading, while teaching grammar/vocab explicitly also, and FFL has essentially none; and generally I am liking using Galore Park materials to support our work (English, science, math).

 

There are reading passages, but they are very much based on using the grammar and vocabulary that you are learning in that chapter.  I don't know how they would work as a supplement - they might just be confusing, as they are not designed (as in a whole to parts programme) to be texts from which rules can be derived, but rather exemplars of how rules can be used.  Does that make sense?