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Sony hacker/The Interview


Mrs Mungo
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But it's the grand American tradition to mock everyone. We mock our own leaders, we mock the leaders we hate, we mock the leaders we like. Is it crazy that this is something I think worth defending with military force if necessary?

 

I wouldn't think so but maybe that's the intent.

 

What could happen in regard to Syria is grave, so maybe.

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Do you not remember the spate of movies and books portraying assassination of Bush? This isn't new. I don't particularly like the way they went about this, but vehemently defend the right of Sony to say it. And the fact that the NK government is so furious would be all the more reason to not back down on screenings.

 

We don't really know if it was NK that did this or if it was meant to look like NK did it. I would guess they did, but sometimes situations are set up to appear a certain way to the public to get public support.

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Maybe the movie just really sucked and by pulling it, now everyone will want to see it. IMDB says they're not going to release it anywhere. 

 

Of course, maybe by spring the hype will have blown over and they'll release it as a stand for America and people will flock to it and Rogen/Franco will become icons of free speech. 

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But it's the grand American tradition to mock everyone. We mock our own leaders, we mock the leaders we hate, we mock the leaders we like. Is it crazy that this is something I think worth defending with military force if necessary?

 

I dunno, I think that's more of a UK tradition.  I wish that was the grand American tradition, but I know a whole lot of thin skinned Americans.

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Do you not remember the spate of movies and books portraying assassination of Bush?

 

 

I don't. Were there actual theatrical release movies?

 

I don't remember any, either.  Not that I pay much attention to movies, but I think I would have noticed something like that?  And I do pay attention to books.

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Do you not remember the spate of movies and books portraying assassination of Bush? This isn't new. I don't particularly like the way they went about this, but vehemently defend the right of Sony to say it. And the fact that the NK government is so furious would be all the more reason to not back down on screenings.

 

Freedom of speech and creative or political expression with capitol, in the public square, is one of those key things that separates the US from despots like KJU and Putin. It is a treasure worth defending at all costs because it is THE pillar of freedom that prevents the overrun of states just like Syria, Burma, NK, and the like. Defense of speech, especially the repugnant and distasteful sort, is crucially important.

 

And I say this as someone who doesn't like either Franco or Rogen. I defend their right to be offensive, stupid, gross, or inflammatory and any financial channels they can legally pursue to do it. Even as I wouldn't have any interest in seeing the movie. Because the principle, whether it is a foreign leader or our own, is worth fighting for.

 

(Backing off the soap box I apparently brought to the discussion :o )

 

One of those was a British film, several Americans were extremely angry about it.

 

 

I did not say that Free Speech was an important issue, there is no need to bring the soap box. I don't think anyone disagrees.

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I figured they pulled it because they were like 'Well, who's gonna go see this now ? We're not gonna make the $$ out of it we were anticipating.'

 

But maybe that's just cynical.

 

Ah, but they also were aware that the public might well avoid ALL movies, out of fear that they might be next to the one screening of The Interview that did get attacked somehow.  Not that I think the North Koreans are capable of pulling something like that off here, but might as well err on the side of aution.

 

I think Sony should release the film free on the internets now so EVERYONE can see it!

 

I think the North Korean high command are a bunch of fruitbats anyway.  Of course they will do all in their power to prevent anyone from insulting the Grand High Poobah whathisname.  

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I want to know whose bright idea it was to have it about a sitting leader of a country hostile to ours with a terrible human rights record. How did this get past the pitch session? When I saw the trailer (before all of this came to light), I thought "Way to bait the North Korean government. Are you inviting an terrorist attack?" Not too surprised that it has come down to this. Sad, but not surprised.

I doubt NK could pull off any kind off attack. Lots of empty threats, sure, but no real actions.

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Thanks!  I pay even less attention to foreign films than I do the home made variety.  Interesting that the article title calls it a documentary?? :huh:

 

I think it is more about what happens when a President dies and how the US might react and possible ramifications than "W is a jerk let's assassinate him"

 

 

 

Edited to add: Crap, now I might have an FBI file.

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James Franco annoys me. He appears to be trying to prove how cool and counter-cultural he is all the freaking time, like some sort of hipster doofus.

 

I didn't know who Seth Rogan was until this story.

 

I do not however understand why the US is backing down on this kind of terrorist attack but we stand firm on kidnapped citizens and ransoms. I cynically suspect this has less to do with protecting our citizens and more to do with mega-corps praying to the gods of consumerism that their heinous acts aren't exposed.

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I haven't seen Team America... in its entirety. But I'll own not hating Seth Rogen. I mean, Freaks and Geeks, people. And Knocked Up. He's made some dreck, but he's also made some funny stuff. But I will admit I like the lowbrow, the middle brow, and the high brow. I enjoy all the brows.

 

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Ever since Freaks and Geeks I have seen everything Judd Apatow has done.  But this is my kind of humor.

 

Team America is way worse - props to the Alamo Drafthouse for that - but I guess now they don't get to show that either.

 

Grow a backbone, executives.  It's not like you didn't know that NK was going to be offended before.  Nothing has changed.  Anything the hackers "have" on you is going to surface either way.

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James Franco annoys me. He appears to be trying to prove how cool and counter-cultural he is all the freaking time, like some sort of hipster doofus.

 

 

 

I actually think that he has a very good sense of humor and is quick to make fun of himself.  On several of these movies he plays the self-centered celebrity.  And Naked & Afraid?  Anyone?  Am I the only one who saw that?  And laughed hysterically?  :-)

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James Franco annoys me. He appears to be trying to prove how cool and counter-cultural he is all the freaking time, like some sort of hipster doofus.

 

I didn't know who Seth Rogan was until this story.

 

I do not however understand why the US is backing down on this kind of terrorist attack but we stand firm on kidnapped citizens and ransoms. I cynically suspect this has less to do with protecting our citizens and more to do with mega-corps praying to the gods of consumerism that their heinous acts aren't exposed.

ITA about James Franco.

 

The US and Sony are not one and the same thing though. If the government was behaving like this in response to terror threats, I'd be upset. Sony though is a private company and they don't have a military to back up their theatrical releases. Their decisions have be more pragmatic than a righteous ideal.

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Weighing the Cost

 

You have to remember that when you talk about military conflict with NK, you're also talking about military conflict with their allies, the most noteworthy of which is China. Alliance systems are designed to be deterrents. If you engage one, you are likely engaging in whole or in part, the others. So, you have to put this in very realistic, real word terms like, "I'm all for US military personnel who are the parents, children and spouses of my friends, family and neighbors, going into harm's way over this. " I personally know half a dozen military families, so it's not an abstraction for me. If that's where you come down on it, fine.  Just be clear that's what it could mean.

 

Also, you have to understand the cyber warfare cost.  If you want to go to war or engage in this you have to be willing to agree to the real possibility of every company or individual involved with making, distributing, paying for a ticket and reaping the financial rewards and their computer based transactions and databases being halted, made public, manipulated, destroyed, by these hackers if they are indeed acting on NK's behalf. Are you clear that that's what's at stake?

 

I don't post these things trying to persuade anyone to come down on one side or the other, I'm just trying to give everyone a clear understanding of what we could be dealing with if the NK's are being it and have the skill set to retaliate.

 

Saving Face

 

Sony is a Japanese company as I understand it.  You must understand there are cultural differences about "saving face."  This is a cultural norm absolutely the opposite of American psychology and a huge factor in this situation if the media is giving us accurate information.  If Sony does have embarrassing information that the NK hackers can access and publicize, Sony will probably pull the movie and wait for things to die down.  Don't assume people from Eastern Asia think like you and value what you do, Americans. 

 

Bootlegging It

 

I've been wondering about several things today.  Is it possible to make financial transactions these days without electronic payments to get the movie distributed to theaters nationwide? Can Sony officially refuse to distribute the movie but turn the other way when it's distributed to theaters making cash payments for it? Could records of those non-electronic transactions be kept offline? Can local theaters choose to not publicly announce movie times but have it available to cash paying customers, say, every even hour starting at say..6pm?  We could keep up the Prohibition/Speak Easy tradition. Let a little word of mouth get around and there's not much the hackers on NK's leash can do about that, I hope?

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I'm so torn. I cannot STAND Seth Rogen. He is such an irritating presence in so many ways.

 

I also usually don't spend much money on Hollywood in general.

 

But otherwise I'd be first in line to buy a ticket if it came out anywhere (even if I couldn't go). Just to stick it t the terrorists. Eff you, I'm going.

 

But I hate the idea of Rogen getting a fraction of a penny of my money.

 

What's a principled person to do?

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Maybe the movie just really sucked and by pulling it, now everyone will want to see it. IMDB says they're not going to release it anywhere.

 

Of course, maybe by spring the hype will have blown over and they'll release it as a stand for America and people will flock to it and Rogen/Franco will become icons of free speech.

Stranger things have happened...

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Anyone seen any of the Sasha Baron Cohen movies? Talk about offending all types. I saw Borat. My reaction in order.  :lol:  :blushing:  :blink: :ohmy:  :ack2: followed by squeezing my eyes shut until it's all over. 

 

Apparently Kazakhstan should have asked North Korea for some tips on how to get Borat squelched.

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And now apparently Paramount isn't letting all those drafthouse cinemas show Team America. But... but... What do the hackers have over the whole freaking movie industry???

 

You know how sometimes a story comes along that's inexplicably fascinating? Yep. I'm hooked on this one.

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And now apparently Paramount isn't letting all those drafthouse cinemas show Team America. But... but... What do the hackers have over the whole freaking movie industry???

 

You know how sometimes a story comes along that's inexplicably fascinating? Yep. I'm hooked on this one.

 

 

I don't even know what to say, I don't want to watch Team America but I find this disappointing.

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I think this is all bizarre.  In terms of Trey Parker/Matt Stone movies, I remember loving "What Would Brian Boitano Do?" from "South Park: Bigger, Longer, Uncut."  I don't think I ever saw "Team America."

 

Surely Brian could take the NK hackers easy-peasy.

 

 

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Is Team America that one with puppets?

 

I hate puppets. They're evil. :sneaky2:

 

It is indeed the one with the puppets.

 

I don't mind puppets but those puppets look more like dolls and they are creepy...I also do not like it when they are having relations.  I don't mean I am judging people who think that is funny or I think they are low class but that it actually freaks me out and I feel the urge to flee. :lol:

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I thought this was an interesting interview with George Clooney about the Sony Hack

 

https://deadline.com/2014/12/george-clooney-sony-hollywood-cowardice-north-korea-cyberattack-petition-1201329988/

 

And Sony only pulled the movie when theatres said they wouldn't show it. That is why they pulled it.

 

I think Clooney asks some good questions, how do we as a country want to handle this? Has it come to the point where anyone can make a threat and we all go along with it? Maybe that is how it has to be, I don't know. But I think it is good to think about and talk about.

 

And I do feel very badly about all those Sony employees who have had their SS# and even medical history put online. That is terrible.

 

I also found the gender discrimination in pay interesting. You would think in this day and age a company the size of Sony would know better. 

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I saw the preview several weeks ago and thought it was pretty gutsy to portray a sitting leader like that in a movie. I wonder if they just seriously don't want another movie theater incident like Batman, or worse. To remove it from all theaters? I don't know. It was set to release on Christmas? Can you imagine the horrible PR and liability if something did happen, especially on Christmas Day. 

 

I would rather see a movie company err on the side of caution, but this might be too cautious? Not quite sure how to feel. Maybe no one wants to be that one theater that's showing it. 

 

I was thinking the part in bold too. I know we live in an anything goes society (or sometimes it feels that way), but if another country made a similar movie about assassinating George W. Bush while he was in office, many Americans would have been beyond outraged.

 

That said, I am surprised at Sony's response. I also don't know what to make of the idea that the hacking was linked to North Korea.  I just saw an episode on Jon Stewart where a journalist that undercover in North Korea as a teacher said that the very brightest of the North Korean young people don't even know the internet exists. Perhaps I am underestimating North Korean hacking skills.

 

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I was thinking the part in bold too. I know we live in an anything goes society (or sometimes it feels that way), but if another country made a similar movie about assassinating George W. Bush while he was in office, many Americans would have been beyond outraged.

 

That said, I am surprised at Sony's response. I also don't know what to make of the idea that the hacking was linked to North Korea.  I just saw an episode on Jon Stewart where a journalist that undercover in North Korea as a teacher said that the very brightest of the North Korean young people don't even know the internet exists. Perhaps I am underestimating North Korean hacking skills.

 

 

My husband works in cyber security. He tells me that Bush's former Homeland Security head Richard Clark wrote a book years ago about cyber attacks with an aside warning about threats from North Korean hackers working out of China.  The elite from North Korea are not under-educated.

 

As one who works in corporate cyber security, my husband is concerned about potential attacks from sovereign nation states if that is indeed what this was. He can help protect against individual hackers or cyber criminals, but corporations (or municipal water systems) are not prepared to defend themselves against serious attacks from sovereign nations.  Stuxnet anyone?

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I was thinking the part in bold too. I know we live in an anything goes society (or sometimes it feels that way), but if another country made a similar movie about assassinating George W. Bush while he was in office, many Americans would have been beyond outraged.

 

That said, I am surprised at Sony's response. I also don't know what to make of the idea that the hacking was linked to North Korea.  I just saw an episode on Jon Stewart where a journalist that undercover in North Korea as a teacher said that the very brightest of the North Korean young people don't even know the internet exists. Perhaps I am underestimating North Korean hacking skills.

 

 

But Bush is not our sitting president.  Obama is.  

 

But, it's an interesting thought.  I'm not sure how I'd feel.  On one hand I feel pretty strongly about showing respect to the person in the office (no matter how I feel about their politics), but OTOH American is pretty anti-social status - especially with our politicians.   We have a long history of political satire against politicians (just look up anti-Lincoln cartoons).  We tolerate a lot of things said against our leaders.  Jon Stewart has made a boat load of money doing just that. 

 

It's so hard to know how I'd respond because our culture is so different from S. Korea or any other country with a dictator & no free speech.

 

 

I'm sad we kowtowed to N.Korea and the hackers.  But, I understand that Sony was in a no-win situation. 

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Anyone seen any of the Sasha Baron Cohen movies? Talk about offending all types. I saw Borat. My reaction in order.  :lol:  :blushing:  :blink: :ohmy:  :ack2: followed by squeezing my eyes shut until it's all over. 

Oh look, you have found the one "comedian" whose work I hate more than Rogen's.

 

Cohen's treatment of Muslims and poor country folk in those movies is so disgusting I don't know where to start.

 

It's all about showing how unsophisticated people are--congratulations Mr. Cohen, you were born to a merchant class integrated Jewish family in a posh city. I bet you feel really great about making fun of people who are from the sticks or who only have one matching outfit which is a track suit. Let's all laugh at the poor and marginalized of the world! Wrong accent, hahahaha.

 

if another country made a similar movie about assassinating George W. Bush while he was in office, many Americans would have been beyond outraged.

 

I don't believe that violence is ever the answer and wouldn't watch it but honestly, that would not outrage me even a tiny bit. It wouldn't even surprise me.

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Our political leaders are burned in effigy often enough that it doesn't even merit an eyebrow raise. I doubt a movie made by another country about the destruction of our current or past president would get much attention. It could, if the media beat the drums, but it's not like it would have much effect on us. For all we know, N. Korea makes movies like that on a regular basis, lol.

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But Bush is not our sitting president.  Obama is.  

 

But, it's an interesting thought.  I'm not sure how I'd feel.  On one hand I feel pretty strongly about showing respect to the person in the office (no matter how I feel about their politics), but OTOH American is pretty anti-social status - especially with our politicians.   We have a long history of political satire against politicians (just look up anti-Lincoln cartoons).  We tolerate a lot of things said against our leaders.  Jon Stewart has made a boat load of money doing just that. 

 

It's so hard to know how I'd respond because our culture is so different from S. Korea or any other country with a dictator & no free speech.

 

 

I'm sad we kowtowed to N.Korea and the hackers.  But, I understand that Sony was in a no-win situation. 

 

I used the George Bush example with the condition of him being in office for exactly the reason that some Americans have expressed great pleasure at the idea of the sitting president being assassinated.

 

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Russia is more sophisticated in thought than N. Korea (to say the least). They wouldn't just threaten an attack. They would cut off gas supplies to countries where it was being shown, like Germany. They would respond with their own media blitz. They would use it as proof, in their media, that we were sponsoring anything democratic happening in Russia and that protests would only support assassination, and on and on.

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I used the George Bush example with the condition of him being in office for exactly the reason that some Americans have expressed great pleasure at the idea of the sitting president being assassinated.

 

 

I really think we can find examples of that sentiment being expressed against all presidents, including the one we have right now. No need to go back in time.

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And perhaps that is why this type of film is not made about Russia, or China for that matter? 

 

I think that would be very generous of you to attribute so much organization and understanding of foreign affairs to the Hollywood film industry.

 

Can I just say for the record that I am 100% certain that Spies Like Us was a bazillion times better than anything Seth Rogen will ever make?

 

ETA: Literally, a bazillion. As in, Spies Like Us was so much better, that it turns out that when we quantify how much better we realize that "a bazillion" was really an actual number all along, and we have found it. It's more than a google, it's a bazillion, and it is one with a google zeroes after it, and THAT IS HOW MUCH BETTER SPIES LIKE US is than this stupid movie.

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But Russia being more sophisticated also means they don't go nuts and threaten to kill random civilians over a movie. There have been political thrillers about Russia as the bad guy. But Putin isn't as funny as all the various NK leaders.

 

I'm shocked anyone thinks this sort of political satire should be off the table. Even if you don't like it, can you see that it's an important free speech right?

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But Russia being more sophisticated also means they don't go nuts and threaten to kill random civilians over a movie.

 

Precisely the point. I don't think anyone in this thread thinks parody should be off the table--which posts are you referring to?

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But most nations don't react like that. I mean, it may even be that NK didn't. The only reason we even believe they did is that we think they're just that crazy. You can't plan for crazy. All the people saying things like we have to be careful because China is their ally... Do you seriously think China would back NK if they actually managed to open fire at a bunch of random movie theaters? No way. They already find them to be an embarrassment.

 

Even most religions don't react that way and religion has definitely been satirized. I mean, even when they do, I think rather than asking artists not to do art, I think we should protect the Rushdies of the world.

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Sony's security was apparently so bad that they didn't notice anything was wrong till things started getting leaked even though it would have taken weeks to get the amount of information the hackers did.  I can see both sides of pulling the film (they really can't accept that sort of liability if something did happen), but Sony should have done a lot more to protect its employees and its investments.  And the opinions of its top people.

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