Barton/LiPS/Sound descrimination...

[OneStepAtATime]

DD did great with Barton.  She actually was the one that asked for a lesson yesterday.  Even though it was Saturday and I was sick, we did a lesson.  She is moving well through Level 4 this time around.  Only a few glitches along the way.  She did great.

 

DS got excited and wanted to do a Barton lesson, too.  So we did.  And he was reading a list of words based on the rules he had just learned.  He read the word nifty.  He read it as ninfty.  That is honestly pretty hard to say.  I did everything Susan suggests for helping him discover he had added an "n".  He couldn't hear it.  He couldn't feel that his mouth/lips were doing something other than what was needed.  He didn't understand what was wrong.  

 

At the end of the list was a nonsense word.  Widnet.  He said windnet (short vowel sounds).  No matter how many times he finger spelled out the sounds, or pulled out and spelled it with the tile or whatever, he kept adding in the "n" when he blended them back together again and couldn't hear that he was doing it.  He got so upset.  I should have just stopped the lesson to let him recoup but he wanted so badly to catch up to DD.  We pressed forward but the more frustrated he got, the more extra letters he kept adding in without realizing it which increased his frustration.  He ended up in tears even though I tried to stay upbeat and tried frequently to just slow it down or stop the lesson.   

 

We are running into this issue more and more.  He adds in sounds that don't belong.  Lots of blends that shouldn't be there.  He understands all the rules.  But the sound processing is just a huge struggle.   The words are getting more complex.  And the incorrect blends he is creating are getting more complex. I fear that if I keep pressing forward he will start to hate any remediation and believe himself completely incapable.  He is so articulate.  He spoke at a very young age.  He is hardwired to speak and speak well.  And he learns beautifully through auditory input.  So what is the issue?

 

I am calling around again to try and get an eval through an audiologist.  So far not a lot of luck there, but we need to get him assessed.  My question, though, is what can they do?  Honestly.  I want to fully understand what my potential expectations should be if I ever find anyone.

[maize]

Does he only do this when reading or does it show up in regular speech?

 

Most of my children have speech articulation problems, and speech therapy has only been moderately successful. They do better with reading though, in fact learning to read was the best remediation for many of ds9's substitution problems since he could see the sound that was actually supposed to be used. For the opposite to happen does seem unusual.

 

No advice, I'll be listening in for any ideas that might help my own kids.

[Soror]

He sounds similar to my ds. I have on my list for him to check out CAPD. Ds didn't pass the screening for Barton, he cannot distinguish vowels well and adds sounds in, jumbles syllables. It has gotten better with the mixing syllables. I've been having him read-aloud and I notice he does it with few words but it still makes me wonder, does he just memorize the words? That's what he seems to do with spelling anyway. Its on my list to check out. I was looking at going to an University with speech and hearing on site, as it is my understanding that the audiologist will require a speech screening anyway and if I got to oen with both they should be able to do a CAPD screening. (at least this is what I remember it has been a few months since I researched this- so my memory could be faulty). I'm thinking we'll likely end up doing something like LiPs at home but I want to see if there is a rec for some specific therapy doing on site somewhere that could help.

[OneStepAtATime]

DS10 has always had a bit of an issue with accurately replicating certain blended sounds.  But because he spoke so clearly at such a young age, it just wasn't that noticeable.  Most sounds are not an issue.  He replicates them very, very well.  For example, he could say the word Periwinkle as a very young child.  It was one of his early words.  

 

I thought in breaking things down and rebuilding that any glitches he had would smooth out.  It is the opposite.  

[Soror]

My ds struggles with the breaking it down as well. Is it due to the way some process as a whole and not parts? Is it just that they cannot see/hear certain differences? As I said I sometimes think he just remembers reading my memorization (despite the fact that we worked on phonics) and trying to break it down reveals those decoding deficiencies. He seems to get it when we go over it but applying it is another story. So my plan right now is just practicing reading and A&P spelling, so hopefully he might be able to at least remember a larger number of words if we go over them enough times. He is on grade-level with reading, above actually, spelling only seems to get worse. I don't know it seems A&P is helping. On speech I don't notice too much with sounds but he entirely butchers some words beyond recognition. I cannot address it all at once though and the EF skills are the most troublesome so we're hitting that now and hopefully we can look at the other in early Spring.

[PeterPan]

Decided to be a little more brief.  My ds makes those mistakes inserting letters, and I think it's because he's trying so hard.  If he can't pronounce certain sounds at all, you need an SLP eval.  Support his decoding by working on working memory and consider going back to the LIPS faces and building the words that way.

 

We have been a bit heretical in our use of Barton, mainly because I know my ds and know he HAS to feel the step and go through it physically.  I think it's important to use our heads with Barton.  I think she would want us to.

[PeterPan]

Make sure you read my added rant at the end, haha.  :D

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with what you are saying OhE.  

 

FWIW, I fought tooth and nail to get us to a bigger city to get a SLP eval along with the other things.  Put all my energy into getting us a place to stay, cleaned and worked to make it liveable, etc.  It didn't pan out.  And I lost months.  

 

He does not want to have anything to do with LiPS, BTW.  I have to be very careful how I bring in anything that smacks of LiPS or he locks up and gets defensive.

 

It is only certain blends.  He can read and say quite a few very complex words without an issue.  It is systematically very specific blends and frequently in very specific instances.  The ped thinks I'm crazy to have any concerns because he is very articulate.  DH thinks I'm crazy, too.  I know I'm not. Watching him struggle makes that very plain to me, especially compared to how his sister functions in the same program.    

 

How do I test to see if background noise is a problem?  Any ideas on setting this up?  I may not think to take in all the variables I should be accounting for.  (FWIW I know he does get easily distracted and fidgety when doing things that bore him).  

 

So instead of an audiology eval I should  be seeking a SLP eval first?  I have tried to find someone reliable for either here in the past and did not have any success but times change.  I haven't looked since last year.  I started putting my effort into the relocation instead.

[PeterPan]

What blends are we talking about?  Don't be theoretical.  Go through the letters and through your common blends and locations (beginning and end).  What letters and in what positions is he having trouble with?  I DO think the dyslexia messes with their speech by messing with how they hear the sounds.  I really do.

 

Ok, let's think and get creative.  Not going back to LIPS but you need him to slow down and isolate the sounds in blends.  Hmmm.  Will he do the colored tiles from B1?  Will he do small pieces of plastic fake fruit?  Grapes?  Make the blends with the fruit and then put them in the blender and make a smoothie?  

 

You've noticed the pattern, that all my manipuatives and rewards are food, right?   :lol:   Will he do playmobil?  Lego?  Use lego bricks!  Anything he will accept that can slow him down.

 

You are as smart as the SLP would be, so sit down with your paper and inventory him.  Every letter, every blend, every position.  Then when you think you've identified one he can't say (using short non-sense words to eliminate other variables), then try it in more positions and more nonsense words to verify.  Then you'll know what you're dealing with.

 

Speech and discrimination are indeed closely mixed.  You might be able to do minimal pairs work for a bit to help him.  ship/slip, that kind of thing.  But inventory to know what he needs.

 

Use m&ms for the placeholders if he's not cool with colored tiles.  Chocolate might chill the adhd a bit and help him focus. If he is indeed adhd (60% of kids with dyslexia are), then he may have low processing speed relative to IQ and low working memory.  You can do metronome work and digit spans for FREE to help with that.  I think Barton's process of having them tap vowels and identify trickies is brilliant, because it allows kids with low processing speed extra time (without their even realizing it) to PROCESS what they're seeing.  Is it possible that's part of the mix or something you've lost that you could reclaim?  Maybe bring something into it that sort of slows him down and gives him time to process, like gold foil stickers to apply to put stars on blends or a nifty rubber stamp where he physically stamps those trickies...  I know, probably not age appropriate, but use your imagination.  

 

 

[LaughingCat]

DD does this too.  LIPS helped immensely with the spoken version of it - but although it noticeably improved the reading version, it did not come anywhere near to fixing it.   It definitely gets worse the longer she reads.   She also does not hear the problem when she says the word -- OTH she can hear it (usually) if I say the word the way she said it.  

 

For her though, here is no particular sound/placement that causes it -- at least by that I mean, she can often say the same sounds correctly and attempting to write down the mistakes has not shown me any obvious correlation (and the SLP we used for one period also commented on this).    Also, she could always say all the sounds in isolation - it is putting a word together that causes the problem.

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

DD does this too.  LIPS helped immensely with the spoken version of it - but although it noticeably improved the reading version, it did not come anywhere near to fixing it.   It definitely gets worse the longer she reads.   She also does not hear the problem when she says the word -- OTH she can hear it (usually) if I say the word the way she said it.  

 

For her though, here is no particular sound/placement that causes it -- at least by that I mean, she can often say the same sounds correctly and attempting to write down the mistakes has not shown me any obvious correlation (and the SLP we used for one period also commented on this).    Also, she could always say all the sounds in isolation - it is putting a word together that causes the problem.

Yeah, DS actually quite easily reproduces sounds in isolation.  And did fine with letter sound correspondence.  And even with nonsense words using just colored tiles in Level 1 of Barton.  Level 2 was really pretty easy for him, too.  He breezed through both way faster than DD.  Her struggle was always internalizing the rules.  His never was.  There really was no indication there was an issue.  We just kept moving on and he got it.  Then we hit Level 3 and he started to trip up a bit.  More complex.  Blends were introduced.  He grasped rules rapidly.  Could apply them well.  But some sounds and blends have been problematic all along.  

[merry gardens]

I don't have any suggestions for the audiologist question you asked, One Step, but I have a suggestions on how to get him to recognize the extra sound he's added.

 

Both of the examples of added sounds in the original post were extra /n/ sounds.  Ask him to plug his nose. (Or gently hold it for him.) The /n/ sound comes out through the nose and won't escape properly if his nose is plugged.  That could help him notice where he's adding the extra /n/ sound. M sounds and /ng/ work the same way--by escaping through the nose. It's easier to physically hear and feel where they are in a word if the nose is plugged.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks, merry gardens!  :)

[Lecka]

Have you tried standing in front of the mirror, or having him stare at your mouth and then have him say it slowly in the mirror?  

 

I do not know all the good rules for helping kids recognize (visually or through touching their neck or filling air blow on their fingers) sounds in ways other than auditory, but I can often figure something out.

 

I would try to show that my front teeth go on my bottom lip for "ffffff."  Then remind "tongue at the back of the front teeth" for "nnnnn" and then show "iiiiii" in the mirror (my son has never had problems with vowels, though).  

 

Then go from "iiiii" to "nnnnn."  Have him pay attention to what his tongue is doing or point out what *your* tongue is doing, watch yours or watch his in the mirror.  It is easier to watch yours, if he is messing it up and will see it wrong in the mirror.  Hopefully he will be able to copy you when it is just "iiiinnnn" and not the whole word.  

 

Then go from "iiii" to "fffff" and do this same process with watching your mouth, or using the mirror, (he may love or hate the mirror).  Have him practice just the "iiiiifffff."  

 

So ---- you could also just work on "iiiii" to "fffff" that way.  Leave out "iiii" to "nnnn."  But I would usually want to practice the different ways.  To me -- it means it is hard for my son to go from "iii" to "nnn" and from "iii" to "ffff" in some situations. 

 

And here ---- the first sound is "nnnn" and so ------- and this was common with him ------ his mouth wants to go back to the "nnnn" sound!!!!!!!!!!!  When it comes later in the word!!!!!!!!!!!  It is just what his mouth would want to do, it was not easy for his mouth to go to another sound (and this combines with not hearing them well).  

 

Then you want to practice just "nnnniiiifffff" and see if he can do that.  

 

Then you can try to see if he can copy your "nif."  

 

If he is fine with all that ---- then I think the problem may be with adding the 2nd syllable.  Possibly.  

 

To me though ------- this sounds more like, with my son, when it was an articulation problem not related to reading ----- aka he might do this with any repeating of a word, once he had said it wrong.  He would get stuck on the wrong way, and it would take high effort, and breaking it down into smaller parts, and support, for him to get his mouth to do what it needed to do.

 

This is a separate issue from the glitches of looking at the letter and saying the wrong sound.  They are related -- but I would not handle them just the same.  

 

This time it seems like it is about his mouth doing what it should, not about his brain thinking of what it should think of.  So to me -- two different issues.

 

But I saw this with my son in speech therapy before he was reading at all, so that is why I think it, and go with the more speech-focused way of handling it.  

 

But also, do try to note the actual errors and try to see the pattern.  Certain letters?  Certain position in the word?  Repeating a sound from earlier in the word?  I am assuming, b/c it is what I saw, it has to do with repeating a sound from earlier in the word ----- but maybe that is not really his pattern of error.  

 

I agree on adding treats and acknolwedging it is frustrating.  Also -- I would talk to him about how sometimes we need to have a break and then start fresh, it is not the same as quitting.  Would he agree to going to a different part of the lesson and then coming back to that word.  The thing is -- that can help a lot of the time, b/c maybe he will not be stuck on the mistake.  Then maybe you can do your "iiiinn"  or "iiiff" or "nniiiff" work BEFORE you see a word with that pattern (or whatever pattern) so he is READY for it.  As he gets better at it, over time, we hope.  

 

This is why my son was in speech therapy for 5 days a week in 1st grade.  It was really extremely hard on him and extremely frustrating.  I would do anything to help keep him in good spirits, it is worth it.  

[Lecka]

/serial 

 

I think he may lock up and get defensive about ANYTHING.  It could be b/c he associates it with difficulty or failure.  I think it is worth calling him on this.  Do the things of "promise a huge long-term reward, have very cool short-term rewards, end on success, start on things he can do easily and build up, don't go too long" etc ----- but consider calling him on this, and letting him know -- your attitude is not going to keep you from doing this.  IF you think it is the right thing.  

 

ALSO can you present it in a different format ----- change the room, the book, the paper/pencil, the food, the system ------ anything so he does not see the book come to the table and get "that feeling."

 

Try to change it -- try to be a little sneaky.  If this is possible.

 

If you are going "it is time to do Lips now" yeah -- probably not the best strategy.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks Lecka.  

 

I know part of this is DS10 IS so self-conscious now, and very defensive.  DH and DD correct him any time he has a glitch with a blend in his normal speech.  They can't seem to help themselves, even though I have repeatedly told them it doesn't help and just demoralizes him.  And he is a bit of a perfectionist.  It is hard to be a perfectionist with really high standards for yourself when you have glitches that just hard work doesn't get rid of, KWIM?

 

I think I am going to just do review through Christmas with the parts that don't involve out loud reading.  Just tiles, writing, playing the games, doing the extra practice pages, etc.  I will go back through LiPS and study it in more depth then try to incorporate it in more subtle ways come January.  He's just so doggone smart I can't normally get anything past him.  He told me the other day that he was tired of my praising him, too.  He told me he felt patronized and would like for me to just stop altogether.    I don't effusively and nebulously praise him.  I praise specific effort.  He has asked me to not even do that.  :(

 

Sort of funny minor example of how aware he is of what other people are trying to do:  Yesterday he pointed out to DD that she was trying to subtly manipulate him into playing Minecraft with her instead of what he was doing and asked her to stop.  He told her if she wanted to do something with him, she needed to be honest and just ask...but not in a "bossy older sister is asking but expects immediate compliance" way either.  Ask plainly and politely and be gracious if he chooses not to at that moment.   :laugh:

[PeterPan]

OneStep, there was an article about praise we discussed some time ago on the board.  It said pretty much the same thing, that people use it too much.  Your son seems very perceptive.  :)

 

I'm trying to understand this correction your family are giving his speech.  If they repeat the word correctly, can he go back and then say it correctly?  Or if they repeat the word correctly he CANNOT, which means all it effectively does is draw attention to it and pick on him?  Helping is one thing (if he's attempting to autocorrect and can't hear), but repeating in a way that does not facilitate his improvement is inappropriate.  They should treat him as kindly as any other human they would on the street.  Would they walk up to another human and go "No you idiot, BLOW, not bwow!"  I have no clue if they do that, so that's extreme.  

 

I do not allow my dd to correct my ds' speech.  She does not have the tools to HELP him get it correct, therefore all it does is call attention to the problem without actually resulting in improvement.  I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY DO NOT allow strangers, relatives, or other well-intentioned (or otherwise) people to correct his speech.  People will do this, people you would think would know better, and I pull them aside and give them a quick lecture.  I'm totally Mama Bear on this.  I DO NOT allow people to correct his speech.  *I* correct his speech because *I* can put my hands on him and help him say it correctly.  If the correction will not lead to correct speech, it should not be done.  I would be draconian on this.

 

I haven't seen the tiles for B3 yet.  What are they like?  Do they have blends on the tiles??  I think it may be unwise with some kids to move to preprinted tiles too soon, because I think it allows them to gloss the nature of what they're doing.  They might memorize the whole visually while missing the parts.  I have my ds building every phonogram, including all the multi-letters, with alphabet magnets.  I'm using a set from Lakeshore Learning.  That probably seems impractical to you as the "he doesn't like this already, so magnets will make it worse!" but there you go.  Is there anything SMALLER that he could use to build those multi-letter blends?  You could do that for your break.  You could make a list of the problem components, build them all from scratch each day, pronouncing as you go, and practice building words with them.  

 

The trouble with merely working on the speech is that it doesn't it doesn't get them through the levels of abstraction.  The real issue is placeholders.  You feel the production of the movement and attach it to a placeholder.  You use the placeholder to build words.  You're building the level of abstraction.  It's really mental algebra, honestly, which is WHY it's hard for him!!  That's why you can't assume he's shying away over babyness, because in reality this is linguistic algebra he's doing every day, with his speech, with his spelling.  No wonder it's so hard!  

 

Give us some more information.  Maybe we can give you more ideas.  It sounds like you've got some great ones.  I definitely agree matter of fact is the way to go.  I'd axe the criticism on pain of death. I like your idea of going back through LIPS.  I find the book as a whole rather overwhelming.  It was oddly organized, with each chapter being a step but then within that chapter you had multiple tracks.  *Basically* what your mom did most likely when she did LIPS was the vertical track.  This means she went through a limited field of letters, slowly built, and got him up to CVC.  Barton says jump at CVC, so you did.  But the vertical track ASSUMES the tutor knows they have to START OVER and GO BACK THROUGH those steps again when they introduce more challenges!  

 

If you decide he needs LIPS, you realize you could probably do what he needs in ONE DAY, right?  I mean, we're not saying go back and use LIPS for three months or something, mercy.  Inventory to determine where he's having trouble.  When you have those letters, go back through and do the blends with LIPS.  That is ONE DAY.  Then quickly move that over to placeholders (m&ms, whatever) and then trade (eat) placeholders and switch them to letters.  You can tell him upfront you know he hates it but could he just bear with you for ONE DAY.  Kwim?  Might be all it would take.  

 

 

[LaughingCat]

This thread is so fascinating to me -

 

When it was my DD doing the verbal mixed up words - I would say it was not 'getting stuck' on the wrong way  - the wrong way was already stuck.  Not sure if I read Lecka's post the way she meant it - but it wasn't like DD would say a word wrong and then not be able to pronounce the word during that time frame - it was more like, she always had trouble with that particular word.  Other words containing the same phonemes would not cause the issue.   If she worked on correcting the words sometimes the error would morph to a new error - but stop working on it and she'd be back to the original error.   And working on the word did not help at all - she could say all the parts of the word correctly - she could say them in order correctly (as parts) - and then when she put it all together - it was wrong.

 

The reading thing appears exactly the same - except that since LIPS the verbal problem has effectively disappeared - so that she can say the word completely correctly if she uses it in conversation - but when she reads, she still adds/deletes/moves letters.  Note - I have no idea why LIPS caused the verbal expression to disappear but the timing correlates perfectly. 

 

The paradigm changing thing is - I have been attributing the adding/deleting/moving letters to working memory along with her inability to apply rules in the real world* because it seems like the more her working memory is being utilized the more mistakes she makes  -- but based on this thread -- the two issues are actually separate.    I had been wondering off and on if it was something about recall instead - although in the testing her rapid naming score was fine (but it was not full neuropsych testing -just part of the SLP testing).

 

*regarding rules -- she can apply rules just fine in an exercise for that rule - what she struggles with is trying to pick out and apply the correct rule in a mixed situation where she needs to decide which rule/when

 

OneStep -  it sounds like the issue is with reading longer words?  -I know you are happy with Barton so far - but Rewards was fantastic for my DD for this.  I think what helped there most was the whole idea of visually chunking the word with loops underneath the word with a very simple algorithm for where to chunk.    Although it's not like we hadn't done that before - Abecedarian does that and the notched card on Dancing Bears and even the later part of LIPS was about verbally  tearing apart word  - but somehow Rewards made a difference that those didn't -- maybe it is that the whole program is the DC doing the looping on long words, maybe it is the simple algorithm (I actually added 2 very simple and not standard rules for the chunking because their rules were not quite enough - DD wasnt' picking up the pattern on her own).   Maybe it is because DD hated to do it so much and so actually put effort in to learning to do it on her own so she wouldn't have to do the looping (I allowed her one try - and if she couldn't do it in her head then she had to use the pencil)  ETA - although obviously Rewards did not fix the problem - the thing about Rewards is that it helped DD deal with long words -- the glitch is still there but shows up more randomly vs. showing up quite often in longer words  - so the only reason to consider Rewards would be if he is preferentially struggling with long words vs. randomly glitching. .

[OneStepAtATime]

Like the one day idea, OhE.

 

 I am having a bit of trouble wraping my brain around LiPS or finding time to do so but I intend to work on it over Christmas.  Sick as a dog right now so brain not functioning terribly well.  He's watching Terry Jones' The Barbarians right now, specifically the Celts, and is happy as a clam so I have a moment to check the boards.  DD already finished Barton for the day.  She is moving through the rest of her stuff pretty well.  I will review some things with DS later, if I'm up to it.  

 

I so wish that I had been the one tutoring in LiPS.  Mom admits she had a hard time getting him to focus and essentially just quickly moved through some of the parts.  She told me yesterday she had decided she didn't want to damage her relationship with him by pressing too hard.  O.k.  Wish I had known that sooner.

 

As for the corrections, I have discussed and discussed and stood firm and yelled and pleaded.  DH, especially, just cannot stop correcting.  DS usually (but not always) hears the difference and can fix it, but it makes him so self-conscious.  They don't do it in a positive way, more like an annoyed or teasing way.  It hurts him and makes me angry.  And annoys him terribly because usually he is in the middle of a discussion that matters to him and he wants people paying attention to the ideas/concepts he is discussing, not getting hung up on mispronunciation, KWIM?  On going issue. Oh well.  

 

Gotta run for a bit.  I will return.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

This thread is so fascinating to me -

 

When it was my DD doing the verbal mixed up words - I would say it was not 'getting stuck' on the wrong way  - the wrong way was already stuck.  Not sure if I read Lecka's post the way she meant it - but it wasn't like DD would say a word wrong and then not be able to pronounce the word during that time frame - it was more like, she always had trouble with that particular word.  Other words containing the same phonemes would not cause the issue.   If she worked on correcting the words sometimes the error would morph to a new error - but stop working on it and she'd be back to the original error.   And working on the word did not help at all - she could say all the parts of the word correctly - she could say them in order correctly (as parts) - and then when she put it all together - it was wrong.

 

The reading thing appears exactly the same - except that since LIPS the verbal problem has effectively disappeared - so that she can say the word completely correctly if she uses it in conversation - but when she reads, she still adds/deletes/moves letters.  Note - I have no idea why LIPS caused the verbal expression to disappear but the timing correlates perfectly. 

 

The paradigm changing thing is - I have been attributing the adding/deleting/moving letters to working memory along with her inability to apply rules in the real world* because it seems like the more her working memory is being utilized the more mistakes she makes  -- but based on this thread -- the two issues are actually separate.    I had been wondering off and on if it was something about recall instead - although in the testing her rapid naming score was fine (but it was not full neuropsych testing -just part of the SLP testing).

 

*regarding rules -- she can apply rules just fine in an exercise for that rule - what she struggles with is trying to pick out and apply the correct rule in a mixed situation where she needs to decide which rule/when

 

OneStep -  it sounds like the issue is with reading longer words?  -I know you are happy with Barton so far - but Rewards was fantastic for my DD for this.  I think what helped there most was the whole idea of visually chunking the word with loops underneath the word with a very simple algorithm for where to chunk.    Although it's not like we hadn't done that before - Abecedarian does that and the notched card on Dancing Bears and even the later part of LIPS was about verbally  tearing apart word  - but somehow Rewards made a difference that those didn't -- maybe it is that the whole program is the DC doing the looping on long words, maybe it is the simple algorithm (I actually added 2 very simple and not standard rules for the chunking because their rules were not quite enough - DD wasnt' picking up the pattern on her own).   Maybe it is because DD hated to do it so much and so actually put effort in to learning to do it on her own so she wouldn't have to do the looping (I allowed her one try - and if she couldn't do it in her head then she had to use the pencil)  ETA - although obviously Rewards did not fix the problem - the thing about Rewards is that it helped DD deal with long words -- the glitch is still there but shows up more randomly vs. showing up quite often in longer words  - so the only reason to consider Rewards would be if he is preferentially struggling with long words vs. randomly glitching. .

Ran out of time but this is interesting to me.

 

I need to reread this whole thread and ponder a bit.  Be back later.  Thanks for discussing and sharing with me.  You all rock!

[Lecka]

Laughing Cat -- he did not only have consistent errors.  He might generally be unable to go from one consonant to another within a word -- like, if he did a certain thing with his tongue, he would just keep going back to it.  That was a pattern, I can't remember exactly what they were (thought I think L was one he would try to repeat) but that was something they tracked in speech therapy, that he had trouble going from one consonant to another within words.  

 

Then -- he also would make an error in reading a word, and try to repeat the word or re-look at the word, and just be stuck on how he had made the mistake.  He did that, too.  That is what I was mentioning, it sounded a little like that to me.  So, it would be a pattern that he was able to do in everyday speech (at 70% accuracy/school or 90% accuracy/private as they say, lol).  But, he would just get stuck on it and not be able to get conrol of what he was doing.  I don't know.  He would get worse the harder he tried, unless he could really slow down.  But he would tend to try to go faster and not want to slow down.  But maybe after doing something else and coming back to that word -- he would read it and say it fine!  So -- I have never know.  I do not see this much lately.  I think some of this is when he is more confident and making fewer mistakes, he does not get into that "stuck" mindset as much.  I don't really know.  I think there was definitely an aspect of anxiety kicking in and making it hard for him to slow down and making it harder for him to do things. 

 

I do think it has always been random glitching, but associated with his difficult speech sounds.  It is not worse in longer words.  

 

I agree -- your son should be able to speak and have people pay attention to the content of what he is saying. I think this is the kind of thing where you could point out to your husband, that as his son gets older, he may choose to talk to people about important things that do not do this.  Right now he is 11 and limited in who he can talk to.  But hopefully he will WANT to keep talking about his important thoughts and ideas with his dad, and not lose interest in that in favor of talking to other friends.  This kind of thing gets my husband's attention every time -- it is just how my husband thinks about things.  

[LaughingCat]

Ah! now I get it - yes DD does show that pattern too when reading- if she reads a word wrong it gets stuck in her head for that session and it is real work to get her to see the error (less now but it is certainly not obvious to her).    It is random though - not associated with any particular sound.    I definitely have linked the two mispronunciations in my head (reading vs. verbal) but perhaps that is a false correlation.

 

Side note: forgot before that I also wanted to say that correcting DD has never helped for speech - not just for the mispronunciations but for speaking quietly, mumbling, or for soft articulation (I'm sure that's not the right descriptor - but it's how I think of it).    The only time I have ever gotten any difference due to correction is when she is memorizing a poem lol!

[LaughingCat]

 

 

 

DS10 has always had a bit of an issue with accurately replicating certain blended sounds.  But because he spoke so clearly at such a young age, it just wasn't that noticeable. 

 

Just rereading because I want to try and play with the thoughts this thread is creating and I wanted to say - most people didnt' think DD had a problem with mixing letters up -- because she just wouldn't use the words that she had trouble with (except at home - but even then she preferentially avoided them).   

 

ETA: Also SLP have been useless for all DD"s speech issues.

[Lecka]

I think of his speech sounds as almost all the consonants, all -l and -r blends ---- so fr, tr, sl, fl, etc etc, and sh and ch.  So it is like -- it is his speech sounds, but that is like saying -- everything except vowels and a few consonants, are his speech sounds.  And K was a major speech sound, so all the blends with K, especially at the end of a word.  So..... I could almost say it was random sounds where he made mistakes, instead of saying they are his speech sounds.  But, they are his speech sounds from speech therapy, too.  

 

I was told after a speech eval, that he was acting things out instead of using the word, and that he was explaining things with a lot of words instead of using the word.  They said he had learned not to say words when he wasn't understood, so he was conscious of others understanding him, which is good.  At another speech eval, I was told that his intellgibility was measured as 85% but with his errors it should have been 65%, and that meant he was very good at compensating so people could understand him.  

 

But they were saying it to me, too, like -- he has got an issue here.  

 

I did not notice this myself, but I could see it when it was pointed out to me.  

[LaughingCat]

 

He told me the other day that he was tired of my praising him, too.  He told me he felt patronized and would like for me to just stop altogether.    I don't effusively and nebulously praise him.  I praise specific effort.  He has asked me to not even do that.  :(

 

 

What about going to a more 'coach' paradigm? and tell him that a coach's job is not just to tell you when you make mistakes but also to tell you when you do things right - so that you  become aware of when you are doing it right  and can try to recreate it again next time.  A coach is able to see things you can't yet see yourself.

 

(I am posting crazy on this thread - and that's even trying to chill a bit and not post everything that pops in my head  lol  )

[Pen]

I can't speak to Barton or LIPS etc. at all. DS was in speech therapy and then still had/has troubles even after graduating from it.

 

The post by Lecka that I clicked "like" on comes closest to what I was told to do when working with him on words that are a problem. Though I also thought the nasalization idea sounded interesting.

 

There is also a balance between finding when to correct and teach a word's proper sound, and when to let it go. 

 

Your ds sounds like he has a lot of insight into matters of psychology and emotion. I'd suggest talking with him about the situation. 

 

My ds tended to be upset by corrections until he started to get teased by other kids at school about things like saying "lellow" instead of "yellow" beyond when others his age had that down. At that point he did want some help from me. Incidentally, like your ds (with ninfty) he insisted that he could not hear any difference between what he was saying and what others were saying. I had him say "yell" like meaning shout, which he could say correctly and then work on combining that with the long o sound at the end.

 

But he still does not like to be interrupted frequently if he is talking or reading, so I kind of decide at any point how important I think something is to fix, which can depend on the numbers of times it comes up, how likely he is to say the word in ordinary speech and even how late in the day it is and whether he is likely to take a correction well or not depending on tiredness, hunger, who else is around, and so on.  Sometimes I make a mental note of a word and bring it up at another time when I think he would be more receptive.

 

ETA: Possibly your DH could use the idea of making a mental note of words to bring up at a time when it is not the midst of a conversation and ds trying to get across an idea.

 

ETA #2: My ds tends to have troubles now with longer reading words, but so far as I know, it does not have to do with them being read so much as that most of his ordinary spoken vocabulary (words like yellow) are words he can now say. It is in written material that he tends to come to words that he cannot say. Some are probably unfamiliar words. Others may be ones that he avoids in spoken conversation due to them being hard for him to say. 

 

It may help to figure out if the problem lies mainly in chunking and decoding a longer word, or in pronouncing a longer word even if it has been said for one as a spoken model with correct pronunciation, or both.  It seems like for your ds it is mainly the second problem--not that he sees an "n" where there isn't one, or thinks that "nif" is pronounced "nin" in terms of the rules for pronouncing it, but that once it is in the word nifty he finds it hard to say it correctly and to hear his own way of saying it too, perhaps.

[PeterPan]

Like the one day idea, OhE.

 

 I am having a bit of trouble wraping my brain around LiPS or finding time to do so but I intend to work on it over Christmas.  Sick as a dog right now so brain not functioning terribly well.  He's watching Terry Jones' The Barbarians right now, specifically the Celts, and is happy as a clam so I have a moment to check the boards.  DD already finished Barton for the day.  She is moving through the rest of her stuff pretty well.  I will review some things with DS later, if I'm up to it.  

 

I so wish that I had been the one tutoring in LiPS.  Mom admits she had a hard time getting him to focus and essentially just quickly moved through some of the parts.  She told me yesterday she had decided she didn't want to damage her relationship with him by pressing too hard.  O.k.  Wish I had known that sooner.

 

As for the corrections, I have discussed and discussed and stood firm and yelled and pleaded.  DH, especially, just cannot stop correcting.  DS usually (but not always) hears the difference and can fix it, but it makes him so self-conscious.  They don't do it in a positive way, more like an annoyed or teasing way.  It hurts him and makes me angry.  And annoys him terribly because usually he is in the middle of a discussion that matters to him and he wants people paying attention to the ideas/concepts he is discussing, not getting hung up on mispronunciation, KWIM?  On going issue. Oh well.  

 

Gotta run for a bit.  I will return.

Sorry you're sick!  Don't make LIPS into more than it is.  It's only the vowels that are confusing.  Consonants come in voiced and voiceless.  That means if you touch your throat you'll feel motor on, motor off.  So b/p are a voiced, voiceless pair, as are t/d.  Say them right now and feel it.  Don't make it any more complicated than that for consonants.  

 

All you're going to do, once you understand that, is take the mess of letter tiles you've been working with for Barton and start putting them under the LIPS faces.  You have magnets, clings, paper, what?  You know I'm sorta ocd, right?  I have no clue if I actually am, lol.  Anyways, what I do EVERY DAY is I have ds lay out ALL the LIPS faces and place under them all the letters.  We first say all the sounds as we place the faces.  Then we take our letter magnets (I'm skipping Barton's tiles for now) and divide consonants and vowels.  We start placing them, sound the sounds again as we place them.  That's written to sound.  Once we have gone through everything, placing all the phonograms in their categories, we break (that takes a full session for us, 10-20 minutes, whew!), and we do the REVERSE, reading the phonogram and saying the sound and then *writing* it in our salt tray.  If you do paper, by all means do that.  I don't plan on putting him on paper for a while yet.  I'm just gonna get a bigger salt tray, lol.  

 

So that goes sound to written and written to sound, which is basically the review Barton has you do in the beginning of your lessons.  In other words, you're allowed to modify Barton.  :)  Barton isn't nearly as multi-sensory as what my ds needs.  I find, and this is just me, that sifting through the letter magnets with the actual shapes (not just Barton tiles) is really good for him.  It's been a subtle form of VT (hehehe) and very intentional.  It gives him a chance to see those letters upside down, backwards, sideways, and really deal with this beast of directionality and form constancy.  He has to pull the image up from his visual memory and hunt for him.  Then he retrieves the sound and matches it to the mouth picture, organizing it in his brain.

 

Someone here on the board counseled me to continue with the LIPS faces and to use them to *organize* his brain as we moved forward.  So for instance right now for the k/g LIPS magnet we have k, g, c (cousin /k/), and ck.  He does not find it confusing at all when organized like this.  For the s/z face we (so far) have s, z, and s saying its 2nd sound (/z/).  I added this when I really wanted to add "is" to our frequency list.  He's intellectually capable of understanding this, doesn't find it confusing, and it's all neat and tidy.  We have the letter O appearing under two face tiles (rounded and open).  I help him notice the pattern (that O has three sounds, that we can see them on our board) but I don't require him to read them except for the one we've explictly taught to reading in Barton.  It's just LIPS *said* to go further and I figured we might as well hold what we had done.  To me it just made sense and for him it's fine.

 

Ok, vowels.  Vowels maybe fluster you?  Well that and being sick.  I'm eating dark chocolate covered peppermint jo joes in your honor, thanks to Tokyomarie.  Are you enjoying the thought of them at least?  Very tasty.  When you come visit me someday, I'll take you to Trader Joes.  We'll plump ourselves on delicacies.  :D

 

Anyways, vowels don't HAVE to be that rocket sciency.  LIPS actually oversimplifies them a little bit, implying certain things have retraction that don't totally.  Ok, time for some heresies.  I don't teach the LIPS labels they picked.  There's nothing sacred about them and I'm teaching a 6 yo.  I call them things that make sense to him: smilies, pirates, sliders, etc.  

 

My mood is improving considerably with this conversation.  I'm on my 4th or 5th of the choc. covered jo joes.  MUST STOP.   :lol: 

 

You realize the what they're calling the vowel circle is actually one of the most fascinating concepts in linguistics, right?  I love it.  Back, way back when, I had a beau who was Ukranian.  (I'm telling you this story for a reason!) In ukranian they have this gutteral /g/ that is WAY back in your throat, almost swallowed.  Your ear really has to develop to get it.  After I figured it out, people joked I spoke russian with a ukranian accent, but I could turn it on and off.  Anyways, I find that concept of things in the front, middle, and back of the mouth just fascinating.  If you approach it that way, feeling it and enjoying it, it really is.  

 

The main trick with the smilies (the longest list) is to tackle one or two at a time, slowly build your list, and FEEL the differences.  Put your hand under your jaw and feel your jaw drop.  Their order isn't correct and they have their own reasons.  To me having the correct jaw drop was more important than their theory, so again CHANGE what you don't like!  

 

LIPS is YOUR tool, not your taskmaster.  Make it do what you want.  I bring in playmobil people and I use a lonely little lost, forlorn looking girl for the "lonelies", hehehe...  Those so far we have are x, y, qu.  I don't give a flip what LIPS does or doesn't call them.  I do what I want, kwim?  You should make it up as you go and use the *concept* to do anything you need to have happen, kwim?  I brought in a pirate from our playmobil set and we have the pirates (r-controlled vowels).  If he's having trouble with blends (and remember I don't know yet how they're done in B3) and you want to practice them explicitly, I'd take a little picture of a blender, print it on a square, and make blends under that!  Do what YOU want.  You're the teacher.  Own it and run the show.  Maybe make multiple blender pics, one with an R in the blender, one with L in the blender, and so on, hehe...  

 

I hope you can get it figured out and figure out if the issue is needing more LIPS or more working memory.  Maybe he was just tired or having a bad day?  Sometimes kids are goofy and after a break suddenly DO the thing they couldn't before.  Maybe that will happen for you.  :)

[PeterPan]

Adding, obviously my ds does all his phonograms (ALL) because they're formative for him.  You've been going at this longer, so you probably have some you review less frequently and some you review more frequently.  We're just at a different stage.  I think I'm going to move to Barton tiles for the ones that are more maintenance.  But for now he builds everything, sigh.  

 

On the plus side, it means he gets in lots of handwriting practice!   :lol: 

[OneStepAtATime]

 

I haven't seen the tiles for B3 yet.  What are they like?  Do they have blends on the tiles?? 

 

I missed this earlier, OhE. Sorry.  Response below.

 

Trying to skim back through everything and address stuff as it hits me.  Letting the whole thread percolate while I sort of brainstorm a bit.  (I'm still sick as a dog but I have a lot of thoughts floating through and you have all been so gracious to respond and share...).

 

As for your question, the B3 tiles include digraphs and unit tiles but blends are made with individual tiles, not one tile.  He has to build each sound with a separate tile.  Even DD sometimes misses a sound if it is a triple blend.  Heck, sometimes I miss a triple blend the first time through.  But with most triple blends he hears them and does fine.  R can be an issue if he has to sound out then spell with tile that contains a triple blend with an "r".  What is frustrating him more, though, is when he creates blends that don't actually exist while he is reading them.

 

In B2 and B3 and at the beginning of B4 there are the phonemic awareness warm ups.  The kids kind of got irritated with these at first but it really helped them to separate out the sounds.  What is interesting is that DS does fine with this.  In B4 it is words, and sometimes those words contain blends.  He rarely ever makes a mistake when doing the phonemic awareness warm up, whether the sound is at the beginning, the middle or the end.  Short e and i can be problematic here, but usually not.  He can separate out the sounds I have spoken quite well most of the time.

 

If he is reading a word with that same blend, however, he sometimes gets it right and sometimes not, depending on the specific blend.  But he frequently ADDS a blend where none exists when reading words, whether in or out of context.  

 

I am going to go back through and systematically run down which blends are trouble and which circumstances cause him to add a blend where none exists.  If I can find a more solid pattern to work with maybe I can address it.  

 

I think part of the issue, as I think Lecka may have discussed, is that he is possibly remembering certain printed letter patterns he has seen before and superimposes them.  Like with nifty, maybe the word looked too much like ninety and so he inserted the "n" subconsciously.  (Although he didn't change the "i" to a long "i" so maybe that isn't the word he was supperimposing.).  Perhaps, once the extra letter sound was there, he somehow wasn't hearing it so he couldn't extract it.  When he broke down the sounds really slowly with finger spelling, it wasn't there.  When he spelled it out with tile, and sounded out each sound, it wasn't there.  When he merged everything back together again, it was there.  And he didn't hear it or feel it with his lips.  But I didn't close off his nose or have him stand in front of a mirror.  I did have him watch my lips.

 

I know with fluency drills, sometimes there will be a word that he trips up on every.single.time. no matter how many times we review it, practice it, do all the fluency improvement recs from Barton and elsewhere, etc..  He gets it right in isolation.  He reads it incorrectly, in the same way, every time when read in a list or in a sentence.  Like that glitch is just hard wired and isn't going away.  Yet there are other glitches that, after just a couple of run throughs, are gone for good, no issue ever again. 

 

Reading words that switch from soft to hard c and back are also consistently problematic.  In isolation, no issues.  In a list or a sentence where he has to shift back and forth, he glitches.  Only with this situation he KNOWS he is glitching.  He knows the rules for soft and hard c.  He immediately spots e,i,y and what they do to c.  But if he is just reading a list or reading a sentence, whatever he said with the first word that contains a "c", he will do the same with the next one automatically.  So then he fights to override what his mouth wants to do.  You can see him putting in this tremendous effort to MAKE his mouth switch sounds.  It absolutely does not seem to matter how many times we review.   This really seems like a neurological processing glitch to me, but I am no expert. 

 

And he definitely struggles to hear the difference between short e and short i.  I have a very neutral accent.  I am articulate and can usually be understood quite easily by others.  Consonants are crisp, vowels are clear.  I don't believe the issue here is some regional dialect I have that is causing a problem (I do have a friend that just cannot pronounce the vowels clearly, so Barton has not worked for her but she is not a native speaker).

 

I have been puzzling over this.  I'm wondering, if certain blends are being inserted when he reads outloud, if those same incorrect blends exist when he reads silently.  And if not, maybe they aren't as big an issue as it appears?  Maybe in contextual silent reading he would be able to decode correctly...I will have to try this out, too.  Not sure how accurate a reading comprehension test would be, though, when he reads silenlty.  He is great at gleaning context from just a few words...

[PeterPan]

I definitely think when my ds adds letters the way you're describing it's because he's just working so hard to process and things get crazy.  I mean, that's a LOT to motor plan the speech AND decode AND...  And don't die, but my has this like 75th percentile processing speed.  It's still a disability compared to IQ, but it's NOTHING like the problem my dd's swamp water processing speed is or the murkland some other kids have of single digits.  So I don't think you're crazy AT ALL to say these glitches are occuring!

 

Is there any connection to fatigue?  Does he make the same errors if he's fresh or are they mainly at the end of a session?  

 

We haven't done /e/ yet because it's the last vowel for B2.  I guess we'll see how it goes, sigh.  I hear you that it's awfully close.  I don't know how it will go with us.  I know I'm in no rush to get there, lol.  That's like a processing nightmare waiting to happen, mercy.  

 

They're both smilies under the LIPS system.  They both have retractions of the lips (hence me calling them smilies to ds).  Our prompt for both of them (the sensory input to get the brain and muscles to connect) involves touching those two points of retraction at your smile points.  It's a very specific place.  I'm just saying you can feel the retraction on both if you slow down and feel.  

 

So then the difference between /i/ and /e/ is the jaw drop.  On the vowel circle of LIPS it goes /E/, /i/, /A/, /e/, /a/, /u/.  That's the order I teach them in.  Say them slowly, feel the retraction that continues with each, put your hand under your jaw and feel how your jaw slowly drops a bit more each time as you say them.  That's the major difference.  For my ds it's a very clear jaw drop progression he can feel.  So that would be a way to approach it, putting his hand under his jaw and feeling where it is.  And we've done drill on that in our warm-ups.

 

Ok, totally different thought.  I love the auditory discrimination exercises in Attention Good Listeners.  If you could get a copy or make something similar yourself, maybe it would help?  Seriously, vowels tend to be THE problem with kids who have apraxia, the WORST, because they don't even form them correctly.  My ds hears them correctly, but we've covered them a ton with that Attention Good Listeners book.  It gets their brain listening to every single sound correctly so they can select the correct picture.  You can use the pages a bunch of ways, milking them to work on working memory, RAN/RAS, etc.  

 

I think RAN/RAS (rapid naming) work is one of the best things we can do for our kids to improve their fluency.  I have little to base that on except theory and a couple research things I've read.  It just makes sense to me that if you ease the challenge of one aspect of the processing there's going to be more processing speed and RAM to work on the other parts.  That's my theory, lol.  Me and my theories.  :)

[PeterPan]

You don't have to close his nostril for the nasals, just touch it.  That's where the sensory point is for the speech production.  You're going right to the brain telling it what you mean.

 

 

[Pen]

...

I am going to go back through and systematically run down which blends are trouble and which circumstances cause him to add a blend where none exists.  If I can find a more solid pattern to work with maybe I can address it.  

 

...

 

....  He gets it right in isolation.  He reads it incorrectly, in the same way, every time when read ... in a sentence. ...

 

 

 

I agree with the idea of going back and figuring out what is a problem very specifically, looking for a pattern to help address it.

 

On the words he can get right in isolation, but cannot read correctly in a sentence:

 

Are these words he knows (easily understands in regular vocabulary) and can say in regular speaking without trouble?

 

What about the type font--is it the same when the word is in isolation as compared to in a sentence?

 

If he can get it in isolation, but not in a sentence, does he need more white space around words? Notched card? Paper moving down page above (or below) where he is reading to white out most of the words on the page? Pencil tip moving above line to help him keep his place and see the parts of each word? Other strategies?

 

How long does it take him to read it when it is in isolation? Is it possible that he can do it, but not easily, so that then adding in other words pushes it over the edge of difficulty?

[LaughingCat]

Wrote up a long post and just lost it.... I think the part I really want to add to this thread is: I don't think for my DD that the issue is either decoding or pronunciation.    I think it is more to do with either verbal processing or working memory.  The working memory theory I have been going with is that there is some thing that happens as she is reading that is the straw that breaks the camels back and overflows her working memory and the word comes out wrong.   This would explain why when reading the same thing the next day that word would be read correctly and a different word would be read wrong.   The verbal processing theory I am just trying to formulate -- I think it would be more like... she reads and says the word correctly in her head but it just comes out wrong-- this would explain why she can hear the mistake if I say the word the way she says it but not when she repeats the mistake. 

 

However, if your DS is really having trouble with the same words consistently - then I do think that going back to LIPS might be the way to go.  I guess if it were my DD I would just try to present it as - "you are having trouble with this set of blends, I know you hate LIPS but I really think this is the best option we have to work on this issue -so this is what we are going to do...." and for my DD I would present it as - "if you get the word right you don't have to do 'the LIPs thing' and there will be a max of 3 words a day"(or other reasonable amount) -- or to begin with if you have him do all the letters (I would have my DD set up the whole vowel circle correctly and pair all the 'brother' letters with their mouth picture) - if you get it all right 3 days in a row we'll move on (to the 3 words a day). 

 

And I definitely did not do the names - the whole point to me was to focus on the mouth/tongue postiions (and the names just seemed one more thing for DD to fail at memorizing :glare: )

[LaughingCat]

Also - the Abecedarian error correction style (video linked by Lecka somewhere on this forum?) is how I figured out that DD only hears the mistakes if I say them not if she says them -- I believe I do it in a more word oriented manner than suggested in the video (been a while since I watched it).  After I had done it for a little while as soon as I'd say "you said 'ninfty' here..." DD started saying stuff like "I added an n"  (a welcome change from  "Auggh - I'll never get this"). 

[merry gardens]

One more thought came to me: you mentioned you're sick. Some of the worst academic days for my ds proceed a cold. His first symptom of an illness to show is "brain fog". We experience those incredibly discouraging days when he forgets many of the things we've worked hard for him to learn and just can't seem to retain new information. I worry and I fret.  Then a few days later it's clear that he's physically ill.  Once he recovers from the cold, the "brain fog" lifts. He's still dyslexic when he's over his cold, but it's easier to remediate and otherwise manage his dyslexia.

 

I mention that to encourage you that maybe his retention of the LiPS work your mother did with him is buried in his brain somewhere and things will go better when your household is over this cold.  You were sick on Saturday when you did Barton with him and experienced more difficulty than normal. Maybe he wasn't at 100% of his normal either.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks everyone.  I'm still sick as a dog.  Interestingly DS did not seem sick at all but now has some sort of stomach thing.  Totally different issue than DH and I.  We have respiratory stuff.  He's up and playing in his room, but he has been having issues and having to run to the restroom.  Maybe he WAS getting sick on Saturday which exacerbated his normal glitches.  merry gardens, you have a valid point.

 

DD wants to do Barton today so she can finish Lesson 8 and we will probably watch a documentary today but I guess we are standing down on everything else until the household is healthy again.  I just can't seem to muster the energy for anything else.  

 

I know the glitches will still be there, but maybe not to the extent they were on Saturday if we are all feeling good again.  I will return to this awesome thread when I have more brain cells.

 

 I feel such warm fuzziness to you all right now.  Thank you all so much for trying to help.  Truly my family is blessed to have your input.

[PeterPan]

If he had mucus/drainage and swallowed it, it would make his stomach upset.  Do you have any probiotics?

 

Get well!  What wild kids that they want to keep going even when they're sick!  Tell them no, they must rest up so they can enjoy Christmas.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Chuckle... DD is actually fine.  She is washing her hands constantly and pretty much avoids the rest of us when she can.  She is trying not to get sick.  

 

But she wants to finish Barton Lesson 8 and was hoping to get through even Lesson 9 before Christmas.  If I can just get to feeling better we might make that since she is willing to do lessons on Saturdays.  I honestly have no desire to do Barton next week.  But I guess I will if she hasn't finished Lesson 9 and wants to keep going til its done.

[OneStepAtATime]

DS took his history test today.  He was reading words like Pelopponesian War (not even sure I spelled that right) and Pericles and Thucydides and a whole host of other long words.  Some he read out loud.  No issue.  But when I tried him on nifty again, it still came out ninfty.  But maybe ninfty isn't so bad when you can read words like Pericles and Pelopponesian? :confused1: :)  

[Terabith]

Can you just skip nifty and move on? 

[OneStepAtATime]

Can you just skip nifty and move on? 

:lol:   Yeah.  

 

I don't really care about nifty.  I was just using that as a specific example of the type of issue he has consistently, no matter how much we review.  It is just a specific manifestation of the larger problem, whatever that may be, that causes DS to add in blends that shouldn't be there.  Or fail to hear blends that are there.  In speech, reading and in writing.  It honestly drives him crazy.  

[ElizabethB]

If he is geeky or mechicanically inclined or visual or heck just try it anyway--have him compare waveforms of nifty vs ninfty etc with Praat. Some examples and a link on my dislexia page, scroll down to waveforms.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/dyslexia.html

[ElizabethB]

N alone vs. nf is a slightly different sound, when they combine it slightly changes. Understanding and seeing it might help. Also, letters have a slightly different sound all by themself at the beginning of a word vs. after a vowel. He might enjoy a linguistics book that explains this.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks, ElizabethB.  :)