flyingiguana Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 It's perfectly possible for an atheist to understand what Jesus supposedly said as well as a Christian can. They just don't happen to believe that Jesus is a god. And they may have more doubts about whether Jesus was a historical figure and whether (if he was) he actually said any of the things that attributed to him. However, whoever said the words, and whether they are a god or not, one can still interpret the meaning. It surprises me that anyone would be surprised by that fact. If anyone is arguing against it, I don't think they actually understand what the question is. It's the same thing as understanding what Gandhi said, without believing he's a god. Which I'm guessing a lot of Christians do as well. (Unless there's some odd off branch of the Christian religion that now says you can only understand things a god said?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Why do homeschoolers have opinions about public schools? Home school parents and their parents pay taxes to support public school. So they should have opinions. Just like senior citizens who do not have children or maybe even grandchildren in school should have opinions. If everyone cared, the public school system would be a lot better. But that is my personal tangent. Public schools belong to EVERYONE for the good of society. So society should care what goes on there, at their expense. Voters should be informed about what goes on in public schools during elections. If they did the political powers that be could not get away with junk like NCLB and just spouting how much more money they play on dumping in the system when they get elected, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 If a non-Christian was unable to understand what Jesus would do, then how would anyone ever be able to convert to Christianity? Well, unless all converts are people who just like big mysteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Why do homeschoolers have opinions about public schools? I've got opinions about all sorts of things the government (my taxes) pays for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I would love to know why some non-Christians think they have the right to tell a Christian what they believe or are supposed to do. I figure they are just bossy-britches and I tell them "don't tell me how to be a Christian when you are not even one. You know nothing about it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Why do homeschoolers have opinions about public schools? Because a lot of us had our kids in public schools, and pulled them out to homeschool because the experience was so terrible? I'm sure there is an analogy in there somewhere. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I've learned a lot about being a better Christian from non-Christians, especially when they point out ways that Christians aren't really following Jesus. Thank you, atheists! ETA: I realized later that this post might sound sarcastic but it isn't at all. I truly do appreciate hearing others' interpretations and thoughts about my beliefs and my church, especially when they think I have it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzybluecheese Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Because a lot of us had our kids in public schools, and pulled them out to homeschool because the experience was so terrible? I'm sure there is an analogy in there somewhere. ;) Because I was a Christian until I realized it was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohru Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I didn't read ANY of the responses and don't want to! I saw the question and it made me laugh, very hard! :lol: I've never understood how any person could interpret or dictate something about a different belief system, especially if they don't believe it. So funny! I'm going to be laughing about this all day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzybluecheese Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I didn't read ANY of the responses and don't want to! I saw the question and it made me laugh, very hard! :lol: I've never understood how any person could interpret or dictate something about a different belief system, especially if they don't believe it. So funny! I'm going to be laughing about this all day! Well then you are probably the audience the OP was looking for. However, you may want to read the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I would love to know why some non-Christians think they have the right to tell a Christian what they believe or are supposed to do. I figure they are just bossy-britches and I tell them "don't tell me how to be a Christian when you are not even one. You know nothing about it." How do you know that person knows nothing about it? Many non-Christians are former Christians. Some non-Christians are seekers who have read extensively on the subject. Most non-Christians have a number of Christians in their lives with whom they interact and discuss and share frequently. Not being a "Christian" according to your vision of what that word means does not necessarily equate to ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 They always say Jesus said to love one another, and that is true. They just seem to forget the "Go and sin no more" part. Jesus never condoned sin or said it was okay. That is the part they are missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Because unlike most Christians I meet and discuss religion with, who get outraged when you talk about Jesus being Jewish and who think the Gospels were written during Jesus's lifetime (or, a personal favorite of mine, that they were written by Jesus himself), I've actually read the Bible. Cover to cover. And a whole bunch of books about the Bible and Jesus, too. I didn't realize there were so many people who were outraged about Jesus being a Jew?? I don't think I've actually met anyone like that and I know a ton of Christian people. Can you give me an example of how they get outraged and why? That's really strange. I do think all Christians that have access to a Bible should read it cover to cover. I have. I suspect many others have as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I've got opinions about all sorts of things the government (my taxes) pays for. I am freuquently told I love in a Christian nation. Whether you believe that or not , my President is a Christiam. As are just about all my political representatives . Some of whom work very hard to insert Christian beliefs into the law. And tax code !! And health laws and education policy. What is the difference? For what it's worth, I was raised Catholic - my father was in seminary school for many years. I also have a minor in religious studies and I find the New Teatament in particular fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I didn't realize there were so many people who were outraged about Jesus being a Jew?? I don't think I've actually met anyone like that and I know a ton of Christian people. Can you give me an example of how they get outraged and why? That's really strange. I do think all Christians that have access to a Bible should read it cover to cover. I have. I suspect many others have as well. They think he was a Christian, not a Jew, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I do think all Christians that have access to a Bible should read it cover to cover. I have. I suspect many others have as well. I'm sure you have. However, I cannot tell you how many times I've had a conversation with a Christian that devolved into me saying "Actually, the Bible says this" and them saying "No, it doesn't", and me citing the actual chapter and verse, causing them to get really upset when they check theirs and find out I'm right and they're wrong. ("You don't always have to be right all the time!" For crying out loud, it's your holy book! Don't blame the messenger here.) And the sad part is I'm pretty sure I don't even have a Bible, though I had a Book of Mormon kicking about for some time, and I once opened up a mysterious box in the basement and found a crockpot and a Koran. I pretty much just use google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2scouts Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Why do homeschoolers have opinions about public schools? Some of us have extensive experience with public schools as teachers, parents of public school students, or in other ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm sure you have. However, I cannot tell you how many times I've had a conversation with a Christian that devolved into me saying "Actually, the Bible says this" and them saying "No, it doesn't", and me citing the actual chapter and verse, causing them to get really upset when they check theirs and find out I'm right and they're wrong. ("You don't always have to be right all the time!" For crying out loud, it's your holy book! Don't blame the messenger here.) And the sad part is I'm pretty sure I don't even have a Bible, though I had a Book of Mormon kicking about for some time, and I once opened up a mysterious box in the basement and found a crockpot and a Koran. I pretty much just use google. I have this exact conversation with my mom all the time. I've finally come to the conclusion that she's never actually read the OT, and that her knowledge of the NT came mostly from the 700 Club. :001_rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I would love to know why some non-Christians think they have the right to tell a Christian what they believe or are supposed to do. I figure they are just bossy-britches and I tell them "don't tell me how to be a Christian when you are not even one. You know nothing about it." The vast majority of atheists I know were raised as Christians, have studied Christianity and the BIble extensively, and then left the faith. Assuming that anyone who disagrees with your own interpretation of scripture must be uneducated and ignorant is pretty arrogant. Especially since there seems to be at least as much disagreement about what Jesus said/meant/would do among Christians as there is between atheists and Christians. Do you also believe that fellow Christians who don't agree with your interpretations of scripture "know nothing about it"? I didn't read ANY of the responses and don't want to! I saw the question and it made me laugh, very hard! :lol: I've never understood how any person could interpret or dictate something about a different belief system, especially if they don't believe it. So funny! I'm going to be laughing about this all day! I'm guessing that the irony in this post went right over your head. :laugh: Amazingly enough, some people actually do want to learn about other people's religious beliefs and practices, in order to better understand their perspectives — as opposed to, you know, just sticking their fingers in their ears going "la la la, can't hear you" so they don't have to bother being exposed to something they might disagree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I didn't read ANY of the responses and don't want to! I saw the question and it made me laugh, very hard! :lol: I've never understood how any person could interpret or dictate something about a different belief system, especially if they don't believe it. So funny! I'm going to be laughing about this all day! Really? So you have no knowledge and opinions at all about for instance atheism or Islam? Just enough to say "you've never understood...." .? And yet you are not willing to learn anything about it because you say don't want to read the responses? And you appear proud of your desire to remain uninformed? This is baffling, esp given that we're on the well trained mind boards.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Some of us have extensive experience with public schools as teachers, parents of public school students, or in other ways. Yes, that was my point. Some people who are very knowledgeable become true believers, others opt out. Opting out doesn't make one unqualified to speak on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 It surprises me that anyone would be surprised by that fact. If anyone is arguing against it, I don't think they actually understand what the question is. Double Like. I've got opinions about all sorts of things the government (my taxes) pays for. Me too. I have some strong opinions about tax-exempt institutions. I would love to know why some non-Christians think they have the right to tell a Christian what they believe or are supposed to do. I figure they are just bossy-britches and I tell them "don't tell me how to be a Christian when you are not even one. You know nothing about it." Bossy bitches? Really? Know nothing about it? Really? Many, if not most atheists know a lot about the bible, Jesus, and various Christian beliefs. Many were raised in Christian homes and were taught the bible and/or studied it on their own. Some were preacher's kids. Some were preachers. Some were Sunday School teachers. Many never imagined they'd become an atheist someday. Ironically, your last sentence sounds like it comes from someone who is the derogatory name you called the atheists. Perhaps you don't know many atheists. I've only known a few who came from non-religious backgrounds. Most of the ones I've known were raised in a particular religion (not just Christian, but that is the topic). I am a cradle Catholic who also spent 10 years in the United Methodist church. I'm quite familiar with both the Catholic and several versions of the non-Catholic bible. And I'm quite familiar with the teachings of your savior. Some of us have extensive experience with public schools as teachers, parents of public school students, or in other ways. And some of us have extensive experience with churches, the Bible, Christianity, and Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Nyssa Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Re the OP's question about non-Christians quoting Jesus and telling us Christians how to behave, there's a sense in which I don't mind it, and a sense in which I do: 1. If a non-Christian is holding me to the high standards of Jesus, that is good for my soul: it is an antidote to my own laziness and hypocrisy. I don't mind that, even though it could be uncomfortable. but 2. If someone is using Jesus' words to in order to impose their own political views on me, I don't like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 2. If someone is using Jesus' words to in order to impose their own political views on me, I don't like that. I believe that is putting words in his mouth and taking his name in vain. Of course, those who do not follow the Bible are not obliged to follow that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I went to private Christian schools for 16 years. I went to Christian Bible camp every summer. I had numerous Bible classes, worship services, and chapel services. I've read the entire Bible several times, as well as studying it. I agree with others who say they often know what the Bible actually says better then their still believing relatives. However, this became more true after I stopped believing. My religious education often avoided the more disturbing parts, while focusing on the parts that supported God as a loving deity. I find this is often true for others as well, and they show this by, for example, saying things like slavery in the OT was different than slavery in more recent times. Revisiting the entire Bible was eye-opening. I think people base their views of their deity loosely on the Bible, but more on what they are taught and what their own psychological needs are. When talking about Jesus in particular, he becomes the "ultimate good" that we can imagine, rather than how he was actually portrayed in the gospels. What the Bible says is available to all of us willing to take the time to find out, even if we can argue endlessly about what those words mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 The Pauline epistles are an interesting topic. I think their authority is particularly problematic because of their disputed authorship. Here's a quick link to a Catholic resource that quickly summarizes the scholarly debate: http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Paul-Disputed.htm I'm a total religious studies geek. I find it thoroughly fascinating. I realize this isn't everyone's cup of tea for leisure reading, but this topic in particular is well worth exploring. It's also worth noting that many of the writings of Paul are looked at by scholars and many Christians as time and place solutions for particular problems that particular churches were having, not universal commandments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'm guessing that the irony in this post went right over your head. :laugh: Like. I ran out of likes, so I have to do it manually. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanitaL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I once opened up a mysterious box in the basement and found a crockpot and a Koran..... This sounds like a great opening line for a book ... maybe someone here could store that away for next year's NaNoWriMo (is that correct?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yes, it is, and if they want that they can go with it. In real life it was rather meh. I'd thought I was getting videos. Turns out I was getting a small crockpot with no temperature control or timer and a rather useless-to-me book. Kept the one, freecycled the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 This sounds like a great opening line for a book ... maybe someone here could store that away for next year's NaNoWriMo (is that correct?) That line has been randomly popping into my head every since Tanaqui posted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanitaL Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Yes, it is, and if they want that they can go with it. In real life it was rather meh. I'd thought I was getting videos. Turns out I was getting a small crockpot with no temperature control or timer and a rather useless-to-me book. Kept the one, freecycled the other. Bummer. I was kind of hearing it in Will Ferrell's voice from Elf - instead of passing through the sea of swirly whirly gumdrops and then walking through the Lincoln tunnel - you found a mysterious box with a timerless crockpot and then a Koran. Or - as I stepped out from the darkness of the movie theater into the bright sunlight, I had only two things on my mind, a crockpot and a Koran. (I really hope someone picks this up and runs with it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 HA! I have those days. A lot. What I was saying is that making Jesus (or anything in scripture, really) just an object lesson, moral teaching, or cultural observance is the ultimate in legalism - which is the accusation usually being leveled at Christians whenever a non-Christian is doing it. Thanks for the answer. I'm back now, and am trying to understand what you mean here. I think you're saying that by not accepting Jesus as divine (and therefore related to having a "personal relationship"?), non-believers reduce the bible events and messages as simply lessons, but ultimately no more important than say, gleaning lessons from Aesop's fables. In addition, I think you're saying that this happens whenever a non-believer talks about the bible. I think you're defining this as "legalism." I don't mean to talk for you, but to tell you what I understand so you can correct my misunderstanding. In my experience, "legalism" is used to refer to the idea that someone takes a literalistic approach to a particular passage or idea, and therefore misses the true essence. An example might be a protestant interpretation of the Catholic's understanding of eating Jesus' flesh (transubstantiation). Thinking this ritual (the eucharist) is the important thing rather than the knowledge and function of the event and message, the Catholic is being "legalistic" and missing the point, focusing instead on unleavend bread that must be consecrated by a priest in certain circumstances, etc. From the other direction, the Catholic might interpret the protestant as being "legalistic" when referring to adult baptism or a "conversion experience." I'm not sure how this fits with what you are saying, as I wouldn't assume the catholic or protestant is a non-believer, even if each may understand the other as being "legalistic." Instead, I would presume both genuinely believed their understanding was the more accurate version of a "theological truth" that is not clearly and unmistakably laid out in the bible It's not only a weak argument, but highly ironic to watch someone claiming scripture has no authority (authority it claims by being Holy and God-breathed) misusing the contents and undermining them in an attempt to point out the hypocrisy of those who hold it in esteem. It happens all the time, but most of us rarely point it out for the same reason we tend to not beat our heads against brick walls. Why is it ironic for a person to use the one thing their conversational partner accepts as being authoritarian? If, for example, you accept the bible as being the final authority over the matters of morals and faith, why would it be ironic for me to refer to a particular bible verse to make a point? Do you think there is no hypocrisy in Christianity/Real Christianity? Or do you think some people are immune from hypocrisy when following the bible? Or do you think nonbelievers are incapable of using the contents of the bible accurately? I'm not sure what your argument here is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheila in OK Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 They think he was a Christian, not a Jew, lol. Interesting. I've never met a Christian who believed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratford Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 She said "bossy-bRitches" not the other one. Not to nitpick, but nobody was swearing. Double Like. Me too. I have some strong opinions about tax-exempt institutions. Bossy bitches? Really? Know nothing about it? Really? Many, if not most atheists know a lot about the bible, Jesus, and various Christian beliefs. Many were raised in Christian homes and were taught the bible and/or studied it on their own. Some were preacher's kids. Some were preachers. Some were Sunday School teachers. Many never imagined they'd become an atheist someday. Ironically, your last sentence sounds like it comes from someone who is the derogatory name you called the atheists. Perhaps you don't know many atheists. I've only known a few who came from non-religious backgrounds. Most of the ones I've known were raised in a particular religion (not just Christian, but that is the topic). I am a cradle Catholic who also spent 10 years in the United Methodist church. I'm quite familiar with both the Catholic and several versions of the non-Catholic bible. And I'm quite familiar with the teachings of your savior. And some of us have extensive experience with churches, the Bible, Christianity, and Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Interesting. I've never met a Christian who believed that. Count yourself lucky. I seem to meet people who believe stuff like this all the time. Even my own mother, who is so Christian she used to be in a Christian cult, was shocked when I told her the Gospels weren't written during Jesus's lifetime. She thought some buddies of his sat down while he was talking and wrote it down verbatim. :p I don't know if I run into people like this more often, or if I just notice it more. ETA: I don't know who this guy is, but apparently he and I have run into the same people. http://www.ccsj.edu/cms/considine/2014/04/15/jesus-wasnt-a-christian-he-was-jewish/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 If a non-Christian was unable to understand what Jesus would do, then how would anyone ever be able to convert to Christianity? Well, unless all converts are people who just like big mysteries. The answer to this will, as usual, depend on what type of Christian you are, but fwiw here's what I believe to be true. Understanding of Scripture comes through the Holy Spirit. So, a person who had not repented and believed would not be able to ... fully understand. Of course, Scripture was written in languages common to the areas where the writing took place, it tended to be written in language that was easy to understand, so a certain level of understanding should be easy. That's neither here nor there when it comes to "conversion" though. Grace, repentance, belief, all these things are gifts from God that come to the person through the Holy Spirit. So, a person can see it, they can read the whole shebang cover to cover, backwards forwards and upside down, but without the prodding of the Holy Spirit they will not repent, they will not believe. In other words, while belief comes by hearing the Word of God, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit to have "ears to hear" so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Interesting. I've never met a Christian who believed that. I've not only met that sort of Christian, and also the one who believes all the NT was written down while Jesus was alive, but the type who thinks it was all written in English. The last one really boggles my brain, but they do exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I've not only met that sort of Christian, and also the one who believes all the NT was written down while Jesus was alive, but the type who thinks it was all written in English. The last one really boggles my brain, but they do exist. Didn't you know? King James was a contemporary of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I often wonder at how some Christians think they know what Jesus would do. Because it seems to me that it's often quite off the mark. (I'm a Christian.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 That said, I don't think that someone who rejects God can truly know what Jesus would do. I don't really think a Christian would truly know what Jesus would do. The knowledge and wisdom of Jesus is so far beyond anything that man can fathom. So to answer the original question, I don't know why an atheist would think they would know what Jesus would do. I suppose because they are "literate". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 She said "bossy-bRitches" not the other one. Not to nitpick, but nobody was swearing. Well, I apparently missed that. However the tone mattered as much as the content. With or without that R, the tone was the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 :confused: I've read the New Testament five times, the Pentateuch twice, was a Christian for over 10 years, have been on two pilgrimages, worked in three convents, been on two mission trips (one for three months, one for two weeks--though I didn't call it a mission), and spent a LOT of time in church. I used to have the entire chapter of I Corinthians memorized, and still know the Sermon on the Mount. I read the Old Testament. I read two gospels in Greek in a university setting, with Biblical criticism under a classically-trained, Christian professor. I led a Bible study for two years. I have studied world religions and the classical world extensively and have a degree in classics. Do I know what Jesus would do, exactly? No. Nobody does, actually. But I have a pretty darn good idea of the character of the Biblical Jesus and the context in which he worked. I have a pretty good idea of what was socially acceptable at his time and where a lot of the norms he referred to came from. And I think I'm not crazy when I say I'm qualified to say that there is no way Jesus would stage a political campaign against the civil rights of anybody, not whores, not homosexuals, and not atheists, because when he was alive he had a chance to do so in a place where there were plenty of whores, homosexuals, atheists, and he didn't. Instead he spent the vast majority of his ministry preaching against the hypocritical priest class. If he was on Earth, and if the Bible was true, then he actually had the chance to do what some Christians wanted to him to do, but did not. That's how I know. I actually take the Bible pretty literally, which is why I'm not a Christian. At one time in my life, I thought I had Jesus in my heart. I had converted in a time of stress, and felt a big relief when I believed that someone else was in charge. I had real inner peace. I prayed to god and felt connection with him, or so I thought. I had a good relationship with everyone in the church and as you can see above I was very into my faith. In fact it was while I was in a relationship with Jesus, or whatever it was that I called god at the time, the god of the Old and New Testaments, that I got into an abusive relationship. And it was my prayer as a Christian, to the loving god of the Old and New Testaments, that I realized-- God wanted me to stay with my abusive husband. My marriage, that symbol, that institution, that pact, was more important to the OT and NT god than love. After all, hadn't god himself sacrificed his own son for the sake of his relationship with his cheating, unfaithful lover, humankind? There were no examples in the Bible of a woman saying, NO--my kids come first, before you and your abuse. NONE. I would tell you to try and find one, but there are none. I know because I've read the whole thing, a great many parts several times. On the contrary, there are men about to slit the throats of their own sons. Why would the holy spirit tell me to do something that is never found in, and indeed contradicts the vast majority of, the Bible? That is to say--a woman filing for divorce on grounds of abuse and/or danger to herself or her children. The holy spirit doesn't tell people to make excuses for themselves. On the contrary, you know it's not the holy spirit if it contradicts the Bible. I knew god would ask me to sacrifice my own children for my "relationship", because he sacrificed his. Because Jesus said, 31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. For god so loved the world... And that's when I realized--I'd rather burn in hell than worship a god who puts that kind of sick love above the well being of a child. I hate that god would sacrifice his own son or himself for a cheating lover. Since then, I have realized I can achieve the same peace and joy, even greater peace and joy, without all the trappings of Christianity, and by connecting with love and life itself. You might think that if only I tried hard enough, I could really love god. But I'm telling you, I went so far as to put my very own children in harm's way to obey the commandments and listen to god, and it's because of my sacrifice, dedication, and literal interpretation that I left the church. I went overseas, two by two. I gave all my possessions to the poor when I did so. I have been a Christian in a majority Muslim country, and I did not deny my faith. I have stood up for the Christian faith in front of thousands of people who claimed to hate fundamentalist Christians. I've passed out Bibles at a college and I've prayed for people in public on government property to make a point. At the time, I thought nothing of it. I was a Christian, and I was following god's commands. I am a very diligent person who gives herself zero quarter. I didn't get drunk. I didn't have sex before marriage, not once. I never went further than kissing. I threw away all of my music when the pastor's wife told me that it was keeping me from god. Probably a thousand dollars worth of music, the most valuable thing I owned. I would never praise myself like this but I know you will judge me and say, "If she had been a real Christian, she never could have fallen away." Judge me all you want but I have lived the Christian life to its fullest. I'm not alone. Many of the atheists I know once went to church and were dedicated believers, but when their belief contradicted their belief in love and life, they left. I know a woman who wanted to be a pastor until she saw what was happening in the church--so she left. In the end, I agree with the Afghans and Iraqis I know, the ones who pray in front of everyone so as not to get shot, but who are secret atheist humanists: "The god I worship would never do this to women and children." Finally, let me tell you why I reject the "if you had the holy spirit you wouldn't have had these problems" argument: Many of you say, "You wouldn't think this if you'd really been a Christian. If you were truly a believer, you would see that I'm right. You would see how my interpretation which allows me to lead my life is superior to yours, that I have the real truth." But here's the thing. I asked for the holy spirit and I got the holy spirit--at least, all the things they said would happen when I became a Christian. You don't know me personally, so you might think I'm lying on this message board, and there's not a lot I can do about that. But let's say you're taking me at my word, at least regarding my life. What you are essentially saying when you say that if I'd been a real Christian, I would have thought differently, "I know you're wrong and I'm right because you don't agree with me. The only evidence I will accept for your having been a Christian is your admitting that I am right." Can you see how that would leave zero possibility for you to be wrong? "I will only believe that you have really understood the Bible, if you have the holy spirit. And I will only believe that you have the holy spirit, if you agree with me. Hypothetical syllogism, I will only believe you have really understood the Bible if you agree with me." So, I'm kind of trapped there. You'll only accept my word if I agree with you. I find that a little insulting and more than a little irritating. At least I believe Christians when they say they have been atheists. I don't tell them they are lying about their experience with god for no reason other than the fact that they don't agree with me. Refusing to believe us because we don't agree with you is the height of circular reasoning and I refuse to engage in that because it's a circle and it never ends. So, there's my answer. That's my story of trying to love Jesus with all my heart and giving my entire life, my entire career, to serve the poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 So, there's my answer. That's my story of trying to love Jesus with all my heart and giving my entire life, my entire career, to serve the poor. Binip - you need to write a book about your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Oh my god hornblower the Christian stuff is just the least of it, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 That said, I don't think that someone who rejects God can truly know what Jesus would do. I don't really think a Christian would truly know what Jesus would do. The knowledge and wisdom of Jesus is so far beyond anything that man can fathom. So to answer the original question, I don't know why an atheist would think they would know what Jesus would do. I suppose because they are "literate". If the Bible is theoretically the inerrant word of God which supposedly reveals the nature of God to humanity, anyone who has read it should have a pretty good handle on what Jesus would do. It's really not all that mysterious. Us non-Christians might not agree with everything it says, but that doesn't mean we don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 After reading my way through the thread, it seems to come down to the question of how does anyone know what they know about Jesus. There are all the usual ways of knowing anything, through reading, study, and experience; but for the Christian, those don't mean as much as a certain special kind of knowing available only to those who are believers. It is this mystical divine "knowing" that atheists can not claim which effectively negates anything they might wish to say on the subject of Jesus. It is ironic to me that the Bible is right. Now that I no longer believe, special divine knowledge that is only accessible through faith does seem foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 After reading my way through the thread, it seems to come down to the question of how does anyone know what they know about Jesus. There are all the usual ways of knowing anything, through reading, study, and experience; but for the Christian, those don't mean as much as a certain special kind of knowing available only to those who are believers. It is this mystical divine "knowing" that atheists can not claim which effectively negates anything they might wish to say on the subject of Jesus. It is ironic to me that the Bible is right. Now that I no longer believe, special divine knowledge that is only accessible through faith does seem foolish. Especially since one person's special divine knowledge contradicts another's. It's pretty unreliable. I would be more inclined to accept that it came from a divine source if it was consistent. Instead, almost all the time people earnestly seek this divine guidance, but then just end up winging it like the rest of us do, trying our best to understand and do what is right. I would think if they were actually tapping into some source that helped them, they wouldn't pray for guidance and end up with diametrically opposed answers so much of the time. An example. In my old denomination there is a big fight over the proper role of women. I think it's a pretty important topic, with important ramifications. Both sides are decent people who I'm sure would follow God's will if they knew it. Both sides pray and study, and both sides come away from it pretty sure that Jesus wants/ doesn't want women to have certain roles. If they actually knew what Jesus wanted, they'd do it, but there is no evidence that anyone has special knowledge, even though they are trying to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheila in OK Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I've not only met that sort of Christian, and also the one who believes all the NT was written down while Jesus was alive, but the type who thinks it was all written in English. The last one really boggles my brain, but they do exist. Yeah. That would boggle my mind too . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheila in OK Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Oh I definitely believe you but . . . wow. Maybe I have run across them too and it just hasn't come up in casual conversation. Count yourself lucky. I seem to meet people who believe stuff like this all the time. Even my own mother, who is so Christian she used to be in a Christian cult, was shocked when I told her the Gospels weren't written during Jesus's lifetime. She thought some buddies of his sat down while he was talking and wrote it down verbatim. :p I don't know if I run into people like this more often, or if I just notice it more. ETA: I don't know who this guy is, but apparently he and I have run into the same people. http://www.ccsj.edu/cms/considine/2014/04/15/jesus-wasnt-a-christian-he-was-jewish/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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