Word retrieval problem - dyscalculia?

[Kanin]

Hi everyone,

 

I've posted a couple times about a boy I'm teaching, age 13. I noticed an interesting thing about him today.
 

We've been working on naming dot patterns, matching dot patterns to numerals to tally marks, that sort of thing. We played Ronit Bird's "component flip" game where you take a number like 5, and try to make it with a 2 and a 3, 1 and 4 with cards that are in front of you. I did this game with him using dot cards only, no numerals. He did awesome! He was fast and accurate. 

 

Yet... when he sees the dice pattern for 5, he often says six or four. I THINK he is getting "5" in his head based on his successful subitizing, but he is having trouble finding the WORD five. Could that be it? If so, any suggestions or pointers to reading material would be so appreciated! 

[Timberly]

.

[Heathermomster]

Hi everyone,

 

I've posted a couple times about a boy I'm teaching, age 13. I noticed an interesting thing about him today.

 

We've been working on naming dot patterns, matching dot patterns to numerals to tally marks, that sort of thing. We played Ronit Bird's "component flip" game where you take a number like 5, and try to make it with a 2 and a 3, 1 and 4 with cards that are in front of you. I did this game with him using dot cards only, no numerals. He did awesome! He was fast and accurate.

 

Yet... when he sees the dice pattern for 5, he often says six or four. I THINK he is getting "5" in his head based on his successful subitizing, but he is having trouble finding the WORD five. Could that be it? If so, any suggestions or pointers to reading material would be so appreciated!

Supposing your child used his fingers instead of words when looking at dot patterns, would he hold up the correct fingers instantly?

[OneStepAtATime]

DD has word retrieval issues so in math she frequently would be unable to come up with the right word even if she fully understands the concept.  Same with Barton rules.  Once she learns them she can apply them well.  She can play the Barton card games extremely well.  But she cannot easily retrieve the word labels.  We use things she can point at or symbols for some things to free her up to think through without getting bogged down with just retrieving the word.

[Kanin]

Supposing your child used his fingers instead of words when looking at dot patterns, would he hold up the correct fingers instantly?

 

Not sure... I'll find out on Monday!

[Kanin]

DD has word retrieval issues so in math she frequently would be unable to come up with the right word even if she fully understands the concept.  Same with Barton rules.  Once she learns them she can apply them well.  She can play the Barton card games extremely well.  But she cannot easily retrieve the word labels.  We use things she can point at or symbols for some things to free her up to think through without getting bogged down with just retrieving the word.

 

Interesting, thank you! 

[OneStepAtATime]

Welcome.  And good luck.

[PeterPan]

Have you been able to go through ALL the Ronit Bird steps with him, or did you pull this one exercise?  I can tell you with my ds he has needed ALL the steps RB goes through.  It's unreal how glitchy his brain was and how things weren't connecting.  For him at least it wasn't a word retrieval issue.  It was that the word had never mapped to that quantity.  If he's guessing, to me that's a bigger issue, because it would be just like guessing at decoding.  It means the whole foundation is weak.

 

RB's Dots ebook walks them through all these steps in a very tight, cogent manner.  Are you teaching from Toolkit?  If you are, you might look at the Dots samples on her website, see her table of contents, and find those activities in Toolkit and do each one till it's automatic.  We had TONS of steps we went through before we got to 5.  And every time we did a number, we used altered dice.  So if you've only taught through 5, you white out the dots so there ISN'T a 6 on the die.

[geodob]

That was interesting that he was fast and accurate without using numerals.

Which suggests that he can concieve of quantities, but not associate them with their name.

 

While our perception of numbers and quantities occurs in some parts of the brain.

Their is another small part in language part of the brain, that links them to words that we call numbers.

Both to the words and symbols for them.

 

Though difficulties with this, are tested for, by using tests for 'Finger Agnosia'?

Which tests on 2 levels?

The first level, tests the sensory awareness of one's fingers.

For one example, if you touch a finger on one hand, with a finger on the other hand?

Can they imitate it?

 

But the second level, involves associating names with fingers?

Where their fingers/thumb on a hand, are given number names from 1 to 5.

Then when a finger/thumb is touched, they are asked to name it?

 

Though the crucial point, is that one can be fluent in math calculations, but not able to name the answer.

 

An example of this, is the traditional approach to teaching math in Japan?

Where they avoid teaching children the names and symbols for numbers, until the age of 9.

 

But they typically have the math skills of 12 year old Western children, before they even know the names and symbols for numbers.

So that coming back to his being 'fast and accurate when no numerals were involved'?

This needs to be looked at, as very different from what we understand as a math difficulty and Dyscalculia?

[Kanin]

 

That was interesting that he was fast and accurate without using numerals.

Which suggests that he can concieve of quantities, but not associate them with their name.

 

While our perception of numbers and quantities occurs in some parts of the brain.

Their is another small part in language part of the brain, that links them to words that we call numbers.

Both to the words and symbols for them.

 

Though difficulties with this, are tested for, by using tests for 'Finger Agnosia'?

Which tests on 2 levels?

The first level, tests the sensory awareness of one's fingers.

For one example, if you touch a finger on one hand, with a finger on the other hand?

Can they imitate it?

 

But the second level, involves associating names with fingers?

Where their fingers/thumb on a hand, are given number names from 1 to 5.

Then when a finger/thumb is touched, they are asked to name it?

 

Though the crucial point, is that one can be fluent in math calculations, but not able to name the answer.

 

An example of this, is the traditional approach to teaching math in Japan?

Where they avoid teaching children the names and symbols for numbers, until the age of 9.

 

But they typically have the math skills of 12 year old Western children, before they even know the names and symbols for numbers.

So that coming back to his being 'fast and accurate when no numerals were involved'?

This needs to be looked at, as very different from what we understand as a math difficulty and Dyscalculia?

 

 

This is very interesting, thank you! He does have great difficulty manipulating his fingers, and does not count on his fingers. I will try your tests for finger agnosia when I see him again. He is a great kid and I know he is frustrated and embarrassed by all of this, so I'm willing to put a lot of effort into figuring this out.

 

OhElizabeth, I don't own the Ronit Bird books so I've been going off of the free examples on her website and YouTube videos. I will definitely get a copy of the dots book, either with school money or my own. Thank you!

[PeterPan]

As you go through the Dots ebook and he seems ready, you might try the soroban finger counting method geodob has taught us in other threads.  I'm crazy for it and it's very complementary with the rest.

[Kanin]

Well, he knows his fingers if I touch them, and he can copy me when I touch my own fingers. 

 

I used a small whiteboard to write the dot patterns, numerals, and words for the numbers 1-6, and he did seem to like using it. Thanks for the tip!

[geodob]

That was very interesting, where a crucial element?

Is that it appears that it was all done 'non-verbally'?

Where another finger test, involves 'naming his fingers'  from one to five.

Then saying the name for a finger, and asking him which one it is?

 

Also with your example on the whiteboard?

That seems to answer that I had?  Which was with whether he could associate quantity with a 'written number'?  Such as 6 or six ?

As purely a visual symbol.

Where the difficulty is with associating 6/ six with the sound for the symbol and written word?

[Kanin]

That was very interesting, where a crucial element?

Is that it appears that it was all done 'non-verbally'?

Where another finger test, involves 'naming his fingers'  from one to five.

Then saying the name for a finger, and asking him which one it is?

 

Also with your example on the whiteboard?

That seems to answer that I had?  Which was with whether he could associate quantity with a 'written number'?  Such as 6 or six ?

As purely a visual symbol.

Where the difficulty is with associating 6/ six with the sound for the symbol and written word?

 

Yes, it's pretty interesting! He continues to "misname" number symbols but he does better when I don't ask him to explain aloud. Sometimes he shows me his fingers instead of saying the number aloud.

 

He is still counting dots in dice patterns for 5 and 6 rather than "seeing" them as a whole. He's pretty good at telling me which numbers are "inside" the patterns though. One problem is he's getting really bored with doing the same old thing every day, for an HOUR, which I totally get. Anyone have ideas for how to make this more interesting for an older kid? 

[OneStepAtATime]

I'm all ears.  I have the same problem here.  They get really bored.  I add in other things, like games and practical application activities and that helps, but doesn't solve the issue entirely.