Dyscalculia and CSMP maths?

[Rosie_0801]

Dd has Echolalia and I'm beginning to think dyscalculia too, or maybe dyscalculia is part of the echolalia and no one thought to tell me. I don't know.

 

What I do know is that Ronit Bird is often recommended around here for dyscalculia and the only maths dd has made real progress with (though working behind grade level) is CSMP. Is there anyone who can compare the two? Do I need to invest in these Ronit Bird books or have I stumbled unknowingly onto the right thing with CSMP?

 

Also, what sort of person do I need to diagnose her? It doesn't matter much to me, but her father will expect an official diagnosis. 

[PeterPan]

Well I went over and looked at CSMP because I haven't looked at it in AGES.  Some of the things they do are really fascinating and I could actually see my ds doing them.  Their use of the arrow lines is quite good and conceptually compatible with RB.  What I see there isn't so much conflict as RB being a bit more focused on *foundation* if that makes sense?  You could do the RB Dots ebook before CSMP 1 and the struggler would do much better.  Now that he's done Dots, CSMP 1 would actually make sense to my ds.  In fact, I'm so intrigued by it (and what I just saw of MEP), I think they might be joining our mix!  I spent a lot of time this week looking through RB's C-rods book, the online samples of her other printed books, and just trying to figure out where all this is going.  She likes number lines.  They never made sense to me, but I think the CSMP use is really thoughtful and intelligent.  RB would probably like it.  You could contact her yourself through her site.  She wrote me back and was helpful.

 

Which CSMP are you doing and where are things glitching up?  Maybe we can help you figure out what you'd bring in from RB to help?  She has the $50 printed books, yes, but she also has her inexpensive ebooks which you can download through iTunes.  So maybe if you show us what lesson you're on and what you're glitch is, we can help you figure out which ebook?  That's pretty much the cheapest way to try RB.  

 

As far as evals, yes a psychologist, neuropsychologist, whatever you have in your system.  Someone who evaluates for dyslexia will probably also see quite a bit of math disorders. 

 

So back to CSMP.  It's not nearly as in-depth and explicit on concepts as RB will be.  If she's struggling, I would add the RB to mix your mix.  I don't think the CSMP is *bad* and I really like certain things I'm seeing there.  I'm just saying if she's struggling or glitchy, RB is going to be much more foundational and build concepts that other curricula take for granted are clicking.  They would be compatible and complementary.

[Rosie_0801]

Ok. That's a good start for me. Thanks for taking the time, Elizabeth!

 

My problems:

I *hate* ebooks. I really hate ebooks so trying to use them means I'm spending all my patience on the book and there is none left over for my poor daughter! I would seriously rather buy $50 printed books and pay international postage. I recognise this as insane, but I can't help it. 

 

I don't understand giving her the arithmetic answers so she can progress with other concepts. What is algebra (or whatever) worth if you can't do the arithmetic? Is this a silly question to ask with a 7yo and it'll make sense when she's older?

 

DD's problems:

She usually can't tell me what 2-1 is or that 9 is a larger quantity than 6. We're currently working on this with rote chants in the car, which may or may not do any good but isn't doing any harm; and the early lessons of MEP1, the greater and less than problems. We haven't been going long enough for me to even guess whether the MEP is doing any good. She's having a tough time with it, but most of it is hard, not impossible, so I'm going to keep at it for now. I should go back and look at Education Unboxed again. We had to stop using them because dd's echolalia would pick up any of Rosie's kids' mistakes or hesitations. 

 

She can learn to do addition or subtraction problems procedurally with either the abacus or c-rods, but doesn't understand what she's doing well enough to remember the procedure if we've had a break. We've been working on these with Miquon, but I'm about ready to drop that for the summer. Using most of three maths curriculums is insane anyway, let alone when it is over 30C.

 

She can tell the time to half past, but has trouble from there to the whole hour, as far as I can tell, due to both of the aforementioned problems.

 

 

What she does well is the string and arrow stuff in CSMPK. I've noticed the organisational effects those lessons have had on her and that happened very quickly. She has no problem at all with a circle and dots being a plate with biscuits on it on one page of a book, then being people we can see through a hole in the fence on another page. Actually, her telling me that was an exercise in reading comprehension, which she is usually quite bad at. (We were reading the 81 Roses book.) She seems pretty well ok with the basic graphing, though she has a small kid's untidiness which gets in the way of precision. She's working a year behind with CSMP, but I've noticed in the last month or so that the activities are getting a little easy. I expect to finish this level off over the summer. Our new school year starts at the end of January, though revoltingly hot weather prevents us doing a full load well into March. We also have the Mathtacular dvds, and she picks up assorted odds and ends off those. But not arithmetic! We don't use them much during the year, but she'll watch them a few times a week over the summer.

 

So, shall I order the Ronit Bird dots book and have it printed and bound to use between CSMPK and CSMP1? Or is that work in one of the expensive printed books? I don't have anywhere local to get things printed and bound so that's a bit of a hassle.

[PeterPan]

Ok, what you're describing is *number sense* which is the very definition of dyscalculia.  I think, just personally, you might want to dig in on Ronit Bird and focus on it a bit, then come BACK to your CSMP or whatever.  

 

The RB ebooks have 3 titles (Dots, C-Rods, and Multiplication) and together represent an *expansion* of the topics in RB's Toolkit book.  The Dyscalculia Toolkit: Supporting Learning Difficulties in Maths  There's going to be more in Toolkit that isn't hit in the ebooks and Toolkit is fabulous and stands on its own.  The ebooks add a bit of content, but their especial beauty is the integrated videos.  I wouldn't print them.  Besides, they're books in iTunes, meaning I don't think you *can* print them.  They're not pdfs.  They have videos embedded.  So you could get one ebook (I suggest Dots) just to see how it will work for her, the get Toolkit after that or continue on into C-Rods.  

 

If you're absolutely decided against the ebook version in iTunes, yes get Toolkit.

 

Dots was very helpful to my ds in developing number sense.  Now we're doing the finger soroban technique geodob has described here on the boards.

 

I'm happy to see you here btw.  We have way too much fun on LC.  I say it's the coolest place to hang on the whole boards. (well except for Chat, which is way too riotous for me, lol)   :D

[Heathermomster]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/533786-can-we-talk-mathdyscalculia/

 

Check out post 34. You should probably focus on helping your child to conceive numbers first. Geodob explains how to get the student to finger count starting at one with the pinkie. That is important.. One is is the pinkie... As the student counts, the counted fingers should touch. The student should also practice separating two fingers between 2 and 4 in order to conceive of division and that numbers as a whole, consist of parts.

 

Does the ebook have a sample? Maybe download that to your IPad and try it first. RB e-books are not typical because they contain links to videos and expound upon the concepts.

 

DS was diagnosed by a neuropsych using the WISC-IV and an achievement test, either the WIAT or Woodcock-Johnson.

[PeterPan]

Ds has really taken to that soroban finger counting, definitely recommend.  For us the Dots book first was really helpful.  He had no sense of three-ness at all before, so Dots made the number words MEAN something.  Then the finger counting lets him manipulate them.  They're complementary.

[OneStepAtATime]

Not sure this helps much at all, Rosie, but I thought I would link an article that Jann in TX once sent me.  I had lost it for a bit...

 

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/julyaug/20-learning-disability-dyscalculia-explains-how-a-smart-kid-can-be-so-bad-at-math#.UsRXrvZdeG0

 

Not a ton of detail but some interesting observations....

[Rosie_0801]

Pinkie is never one at our house because we use Auslan, lol. Other than that, you've given me a bit more to read, so that is good! We've got a doctor's appointment this afternoon and hopefully they will do something radical like listen to me and give me what I want. :rolleyes:

 

 

Oh, we have worked on recognising groups of numbers, and she can do that fluently with one dice now, and can do it with other objects if they are laid out in the dice pattern. It's a start, lol.

[OneStepAtATime]

Good luck Rosie.  Hope it goes well.

[Rosie_0801]

We're being referred somewhere by the doctor who had never heard of dyscalculia and doesn't think I need to see anyone since I seem to know what I'm doing. :rolleyes: The public system- they'll probably get back to us before dd graduates… I'm going to estimate we'll get an appointment around the end of March.

[geodob]

Rosie, thanks for mentioning that you use Auslan, as it caused me to have a look at the number signs that Auslan uses?

Which is of interest, as I live in Oz, on the other side from you.

But having looked at the current number signs?

I am thinking about writing to Deaf Australia, and having a discussion with them about their number signs?

Where firstly, the way that 3 and 9 are formed, uses a finger pattern formation. That requires restraining the 'pinkie'?

The finger next to the pinkie is different?

While all other fingers can freely be extended by themselves.

To only extend the finger next to the pinkie?

It requires restraining the other fingers.

 

But when the pinkie is extended first.  Then the next finger can freely be extended.

 

Though another major issue I have with Auslan?

Is that when fingers are extended, they are 'spread apart'?

Where this relates to a crucial part of the method that I have been talking about?

Where instead of the fingers being 'spread apart'

They are pressed against each other !

 

To understand the difference ?

Perhaps you could make a simple comparison?

Simply form a fist with left hand, with palm facing up.

 

Then extend your 'pinkie' and the next finger.

 

But what I would ask you to compare?

Is the difference between having these fingers 'spread apart', and 'pressed against each other'?

 

Then try it again, with the next finger extended as well?

Where you compare how different it feels, between the 3 fingers being 'spread apart', and 'touching each other' ?

 

I would strongly suggest that the difference is that when touching each other?

That you can feel the 3 fingers as a 'Group'.

 

Then if you spread them apart, the feeling of them as a Group disappears?

They become 3 separate fingers.

 

Where this thing called 'Number Sense'?

Is really a 'Group Sense'.

So that we have a sense of that Group, which is called three 3.

 

Coming back to where you wrote that 'she usually can't tell me what 2-1 is ?

If you asked her to form a fist with her left hand, palm up?

Then extend her Pinkie.

Which she looks at and feels.

 

Then have her extend the next finger alongside it.

So that are pressed against each other.

Ask her if she feels them as a group?

As a group of 2.

 

Where she can probably feel, that she has Added the next finger,  to form a group of 2.

 

Then if she retracts that 'next finger'?

She can then probably feel that she has 'taken away' 1 finger,

Understand the concept of 'taking away', which we also call minus or subtract.

 

Though an important part of this, is how you actually tell her what her to do?

Which might begin with term like, 'stick out your pinkie'.

Then 'stick out the next finger'.

Which could then be changed to, 'Add the next finger'.

 

So that she concieve of Adding, to form a larger group.

 

But the other side of this, is to do with how you actually tell her to retract the next finger?

The words actually used?

Where as a first grader, it might begin with: 'stick out a finger/ stick out the next finger'?

Then: 'pull back the last finger'?

 

Where these can be used to develop the 'language of math'.

So that having understood the instruction to 'stick out the next finger'?

This could then be explained as 'Adding' the next finger.

 

Then with 'pulling back the last finger'?

The idea of 'taking away' the last finger could introduced?

 

Add a finger, take away a finger.

 

The term 'minus' could then be introduced, as meaning 'take away'.

 

Later, this 'pulling back of a finger'?

Could be explained as being called 'retraction'.

Retract a finger.

 

Once Retraction is understood as an action?

Then this provides an opportunity to introduce the terms 'Subtract and Subtraction' ?

 

So that you can then say 'Subtract a finger".

 

Where the terms Adding and Subtracting, can have real meaning.

[Rosie_0801]

The reason Auslan users make their numbers with fingers spread apart is because it is a more natural movement, more comfortable and therefore creating less strain. No one wants RSI or carpel tunnel syndrome.

[Rosie_0801]

Damn. I should have read a bit more carefully. The Dots ebook is made for iPad only. :(

 

So I shall have to order Toolkit after all!

[OneStepAtATime]

Damn. I should have read a bit more carefully. The Dots ebook is made for iPad only. :(

 

So I shall have to order Toolkit after all!

Unfortunately, this is very true.  I don't suppose there is anyone you know that has an old IPad or IPad mini they would be willing to lend you?  Sell you cheap?