conversation issues: over talking, rambling, repetitive speech: What could cause it? What could help?

[Pen]

Has anyone dealt with someone having trouble limiting talking, staying on topic, repeating things multiple times, lack of clarity? This is an adult blood relative of my son for whom the problem seems extreme, and then my ds for whom it seems milder. I could use ideas for both. The adult is motivated to figure it out and improve it. 

 

Any ideas what could cause this or what could help it?

 

I am thinking maybe anxiety or ADD or OCD type thing?

 

But also I am thinking maybe there is some way to practice and do behavior modification?

 

Supplements?  I am thinking for my ds it may increase when fish oils are down, if that could give any clues--as well as a reminder to keep the fish oils up.

 

Any ideas?

[Starr]

Some people repeat things to get them set in their own minds. I found being in the car was a good time to practise organizing thoughts and telling a story. It's hard to cue people into normal discourse. They often then lose opportunities to contribute to conversations while those that keep up, are more entertaining and remember without repeating get the floor.

[Cakes]

I can only address the nutritional aspect of it, but the brain requires fat to function, so that would explain why you see improvement with fish oil.

 

In addition to fish oil think about where you can include more healthy fats in his diet. Kerrygold grass fed butter is easy to find for most, nuts (almonds, walnuts and brazil nuts are great), coconut oil for cooking, coconut milk in smoothies. Barleens makes a tasty Omega oil blend which is vegan and fruit flavored...you can eat it by the spoonful or add to smoothies.

[OneStepAtATime]

I rehearse what I am going to say or write and restructure it many different ways, but I do it in my head.  DS does the same thing, but he struggles to do it in his head.  He has to do it all out loud.  This can drive people nuts because he is always talking.  As geodob once said, he may not have developed an inner voice.  I am working on that when we do Barton lessons since he is supposed to read the passages silently to himself first then read them to me.  He HATES doing it that way.  He wants to read it out loud to himself and then out loud to me.  

 

I realize that doesn't help you at all and I'm sorry. Still working on a solution here, too.  

 

I think it is great you are seeking options now, though, while he is still a kid.

 

And FWIW, I do think DS might get an ADD/ADHD diagnosis....

[PeterPan]

The thing to remember is that your ds has a very small number of things on his mind, a small number of experiences to bring to bear in conversations and analysis.  Once someone gets to adulthood, their thoughts are not only more complex but things just DROP.  

 

Our society tends to make judgments about people so it becomes a social skills problem.  You can approach it that way, but you can also back up and ask whether the person is bored or receiving the intellectual stimulation they need.  To handle the social skills side, you get some books or watch Ted talks on it.  I might have a link to one handy.  I think both angles are important, the self-cognizance AND the realizing that you have to find appropriate outlets.  Put that person in certain settings and they're the expert rambling about their expertise.  Put them in another setting and they're the pest and misfit. 

 

Have you seen the Meg Ryan movie about Einstein?  WAY too funny, must watch.  I.Q. (2/9) Movie CLIP - You're Albert Einstein (1994) HD ...  That's just a clip, not necessarily the funniest scenes.  There are some that are just RIPE exploring that idea of how our society views people.

 

 

 

Here's that Ted Talk.  Don't skip it because it's aspergers.  According to the Social Thinking people the social skills deficits can be as serious with ADHD as ASD.  And yes, I would say a mixture of EF issues (organization, working memory), ADHD, high IQ, and then with the adult things dropping off and getting more muddled because they have so many things in their head.

[Pen]

Thank you to all of you have replied thus far. 

 

Having more terms like "social thinking" to look up would also help me, I think.

 

As I understand it with both my ds possibly, and the adult relative definitely, there is not a lack of  an inner voice, but also a sense that that the inner talk too gets into a too much, and also rambling.

 

 For ds this also seems to get into phases of repetitive nonsense that seem to coincide with hyper behavior also. This happens definitely if he has too much sugar, but it happens sometimes without any sugar.

 

I am thinking some nutritional control is needed first, and then some sort of practice program... or something.

 

 

[kbutton]

I agree with OhElizabeth. I would also add that if it is something like OCD or a stim of some kind, you might want to consider some kind of behavioral intervention. OCD can really tie people up in knots (or their families). If anxiety is part of it, treating the anxiety can help as well. 

 

[Pen]

I've not been able to see the TED talk film yet due to slow connection, but found a website on communication by Daniel Wendler and it helped!!!

 

I still think nutritional aspects may help, but just the suggestions of what to do for a conversation from that website made a big difference.

 

Thank you!!!

[Pen]

Even though we have gotten some progress already from the Daniel Wendler website (and maybe I'll get his book), any more ideas anyone gets on this would still be much appreciated!

[PeterPan]

Pen, I just want to make sure you realize this.  It's a basic symptom of ADHD and a way it can come out.  It doesn't *have* to, but it is a way.  Have you done your evals?  I always forget who has done what, sorry!  You can do nutrition all you want and I'm totally in favor of it, yes.  But at some point it helps to get the evals and get that discussion going on what of this is IQ, what is ADHD, what the right words are for what you're seeing.  There's also a good book Bright But Not Broken that can help you sort through stuff.  These things overlap so much.  I think you were the one who responded a few months ago to a thread of mine saying my ds was just very ill-disciplined and ill-behaved and that's why he was doing xyz.  I honestly thought he was kissing the spectrum and had *2* moms with ASD kids suggest it to me as a possibility.  (people who had met him and hung out with him varying amounts)  The psych said no, but there *is* a serious social delay and there's also this compounding of it with a gifted verbal IQ.  I asked him why he does (insert really wild thing that just does not seem appropriate or normal) and the psych says BECAUSE HE CAN.  

 

So why does your kid ramble on about things nobody cares about?  Because he can.  Because he's adhd maybe.  Because he needs some explicit social skills instruction or has a social delay, maybe.  That's stuff the psych helps you sort out.

 

The DSM blows my mind with the way it uses the same labels for kids who are VASTLY different.  The process of sitting down with the psych was really helpful to me, even if he was some kind of roadrunner spastic brief turdball.  We need the RIGHT WORDS for what we're seeing, because when we have the right words we can figure out what to DO about it.  And we can try to help you, but ultimately those answers would be a lot more accurate coming from a really good psych, someone who has spent some time with him who can sort it all out for you.

[geodob]

Though the difference between ADD and ADHD, is that as well as Attention Disorder, their is a Hyperactive Disorder.

But their can also be HDD, without ADD.

Which is a Hyperactive/ Impulsivity Disorder, without attention difficulties.

 

Though it is the Impulsivity that can cause 'trouble with limiting talking, staying on topic, repeating things multiple times, lack of clarity?'

As they talk more impulsively, changing topic as things come to mind.

 

[PeterPan]

Though the difference between ADD and ADHD, is that as well as Attention Disorder, their is a Hyperactive Disorder.

But their can also be HDD, without ADD.

Which is a Hyperactive/ Impulsivity Disorder, without attention difficulties.

 

Though it is the Impulsivity that can cause 'trouble with limiting talking, staying on topic, repeating things multiple times, lack of clarity?'

As they talk more impulsively, changing topic as things come to mind.

In the US it's all ADHD just with subtypes.  (inattentive, hyperactive, combined, etc.)  My ds got an inattentive label but, as the psych put it, has a lot of motion.   :lol:   He has that "motor mouth" thing (hate that term) and can go on and on  My dd got an inattentive label and does not.  Just for your trivia, his verbal IQ is also slightly higher than dd's.  Not a ton higher, but just enough that, combined with his DRAMATICALLY higher processing speed results in a "because he can" situation.  That's why I say you have to see the strengths being demonstrated within this.  Pen, haven't you talked about the beautiful, interesting writing you've been getting out of him with Bravewriter?  So that's the flipside, that he has these strengths.  It's just harnessing that and helping him see his gift so he can understand when to turn it on and when to maybe reign it in, to understand that his strengths are not typical of others and can be overwhelming.  That self-cognizance we were talking about.  These are things you can talk through with a psych so they can help you understand what's going on and how to view it from both positive and instructive angles.

[Garga]

Funny you post this now. My husband has ADHD and will raaaaaamble on and on about things. I haven't been able to finish a single sentence around him in 22 years. Ok, that's a big exaggeration, but well....not too big of an exaggeration.

 

What makes it funny that you post it now is that he's on some pain medication that is making his ADHD symptoms of rambling and over-talking come on full-force. Ay yi yi. It he wasn't in pain I think I'd be putting him in pain! I had to look him in the eye the other day and say, "Darling, I NEED silence right now. Either I can go into another room and hide from you, (he's been home on medical leave because of his neck pain), or you can Please Stop Talking." He got a little grumpy about it, but he has been rambling and mumbling and interupting non-stop for 2 weeks now and I needed a break.

 

I don't have suggestions as my husband does this and my ADHD son is also starting to do this more and more. The more people that are around and the more hyped up they are because of the people, the worse they get. They interrupt me, they interrupt their friends. My husband is very funny, so people don't mind his interruptions so much, but my son only thinks he's funny. He's still growing into his humor. So, he interrupts people to say something "witty" but it's just irritating to the person.

 

Both of them will do the thing where whatever someone says something they're reminded in their own minds about something else and will want to share.

 

Friend: We spent our vacation in Hawaii last sum...

Husband or Son: That reminds me of the volcanos we saw in Arizona because Hawaii has volcanos and so does Arizona and blah blah blah...

 

It comes across socially as self-centered. No one else can tell of their experiences without this ADHD type person butting in to take over the converstaion and wrest it away from them. I know I sound harsh, but it's just how it comes across to people. I also know that my husband and son are not self-centered and are caring people, but they can NOT stop themselves from oversharing and rambling at the expense of anyone else joining the conversation.

 

I wish I had a solution. Sometimes I'm the obnoxious wife who puts her hand on her husband's arm and says, "PLEASE let me finish," even if we're in front of people. It gets in the way of my relationships with our friends because I can't share stories and connect with my friends without my husband interrupting me.

 

For my son, I'm the mom and come down a little harder on him and flat out say, "SON! Stop interrupting." He doesn't like when I do it, but the interruptions are over the top. He will talk while other people are talking and will not stop. They're talking and he's talking the ENTIRE time they are.

 

I'm going to go watch that Ted talk now that someone else posted.

[Garga]

I just told them last week that I may have us use a Speaking Stick. This would mean that whoever is holding the Speaking Stick is the only one allowed to speak. And you can't hold the Speaking Stick for longer than 120 seconds before you MUST pass it on. I really think they don't know how much they overtalk and ramble. Poor guys. I can't teach and train my husband without being obnoxious (unless he wants me to) because he's a grown up, but I can try to teach my son.

[Laura Corin]

My brother has this issue and Hobbes was heading that way.  I gave Hobbes rules for conversation:  if someone says 'Uh-huh' or similar three times in a row, it's time to change the subject or ask them a question, then listen to the answer.  He was about eight at the time.  

 

We practised conversation at home, then I monitored him when we were out, subsequently talking over how encounters had gone.  It really helped him to have rules.  He doesn't now remember the training, but he talks much better.

 

L

[OneStepAtATime]

My brother has this issue and Hobbes was heading that way.  I gave Hobbes rules for conversation:  if someone says 'Uh-huh' or similar three times in a row, it's time to change the subject or ask them a question, then listen to the answer.  He was about eight at the time.  

 

We practised conversation at home, then I monitored him when we were out, subsequently talking over how encounters had gone.  It really helped him to have rules.  He doesn't now remember the training, but he talks much better.

 

L

Love this.  DS talks all the time.  And DH can't stand it.  He tends to just sit and endure for a long time then he just snaps and yells his name in frustration instead of giving him clear guidelines from the beginning.  DS doesn't really understand why he irritates him sometimes and not others. I guess we need to work on clear, structured guidelines and some training.  :)

[Pen]

My brother has this issue and Hobbes was heading that way.  I gave Hobbes rules for conversation:  if someone says 'Uh-huh' or similar three times in a row, it's time to change the subject or ask them a question, then listen to the answer.  He was about eight at the time.  

 

We practised conversation at home, then I monitored him when we were out, subsequently talking over how encounters had gone.  It really helped him to have rules.  He doesn't now remember the training, but he talks much better.

 

L

 

 

  :hurray:  I like that!  Could you, pretty please, if you can remember, give any more of your rules for conversation? 

[Pen]

... Have you done your evals? ...

 

He's not expected to have another eval till it is close enough to time for high school testing and so on to help with accommodations.

 

He had eval by more than one psychologist who thought he had PTSD due to early traumas (his bio-mom died, and he was in numerous foster homes and so on before he came to me), and impulsive sensory seeking behavior.  He had pub school eval that has dyslexia/dysgraphia along with 2E brightness--though they used other terms for those like 'disorder of written communication' or some such...I forget now.

 

 I do not know if his situation rises to ADHD, they did not think so at the time. I'm not sure where sensory seeking impulsivity and ADHD might meet. I should probably review some of what was suggested back then.  

 

The other relative I think may have ADD and for sure has anxiety, and has sensory avoidance. 

 

All of the things you mentioned are possibly relevant.

[Laura Corin]

  :hurray:  I like that!  Could you, pretty please, if you can remember, give any more of your rules for conversation? 

 

Honestly, that was pretty much it.  He needed to hear the back-and-forth of conversation.  He just didn't have the rhythm.

 

I'm reminded of a friend who, when small, used to sing the words of songs to whatever tune.  She just didn't hear that particular songs had particular melodies - she had to be taught specifically something that most of us just pick up, so that she wouldn't carry on embarrassing herself when she sang with others.

 

L

[PeterPan]

Honestly, that was pretty much it.  He needed to hear the back-and-forth of conversation.  He just didn't have the rhythm.

 

I'm reminded of a friend who, when small, used to sing the words of songs to whatever tune.  She just didn't hear that particular songs had particular melodies - she had to be taught specifically something that most of us just pick up, so that she wouldn't carry on embarrassing herself when she sang with others.

 

L

Not to rabbit trail too much (sorry Pen!), but how did they teach her?

[Laura Corin]

Not to rabbit trail too much (sorry Pen!), but how did they teach her?

 

Sorry - I wasn't there.

 

L

[merry gardens]

You might look into acting and drama. We saw some improvement in one child after he participated in a play.  Acting is role playing in a non-therapy setting. One actor speaks, then the next, both delivering memorized lines within a pre-written conversation that should flow the way conversations are suppose to flow.  Once memorized, the person doesn't have to form thoughts to know what he will say--and so he gets to practice how conversation should sound without the task of forming thoughts. (When one is trying to find the right words, that takes brain power--and it can take it away from other areas like social awareness.)

 

How much acting helps the child develop a conversational style can depend what character the person is cast as. It may be something best done at home with carefully selected parts.  If the child is cast as an obnoxious person who monopolizes conversation, it wouldn't be very helpful. Find a good script with the style of dialog you'd like to see from your child, and work on it with your child until the parts sounds the way a dialog should sound. And then do it again, and again.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

You might look into acting and drama. We saw some improvement in one child after he participated in a play.  Acting is role playing in a non-therapy setting. One actor speaks, then the next, both delivering memorized lines within a pre-written conversation that should flow the way conversations are suppose to flow.  Once memorized, the person doesn't have to form thoughts to know what he will say--and so he gets to practice how conversation should sound without the task of forming thoughts. (When one is trying to find the right words, that takes brain power--and it can take it away from other areas like social awareness.)

 

How much acting helps the child develop a conversational style can depend what character the person is cast as. It may be something best done at home with carefully selected parts.  If the child is cast as an obnoxious person who monopolizes conversation, it wouldn't be very helpful. Find a good script with the style of dialog you'd like to see from your child, and work on it with your child until the parts sounds the way a dialog should sound. And then do it again, and again.

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

DD is in her 3rd year of drama.  She hated the idea of taking drama.  She had no interest whatsoever and had terrible stage fright.  But I insisted she take SOMETHING that got her out of the house and around other kids (it was our first year homeschooling).  Drama was the least awful compared to sports or dance or music lessons so she miserably and with great reluctance started with the drama club.  That was 3 years ago.  She will readily admit that it has been the absolute best thing for helping her to organize her thoughts, carry on effective conversations, posit logical arguments, be willing to speak up coherently when defending a position, etc.  I have been so impressed with what 3 years of drama club have done.  And she loves it now.

 

 I had not thought about how it might also help a child to see the ebb and flow of how a normal conversation works, but I agree that it might very well do exactly that.  I intend for DS to start with the drama club when he is eligible next year in hopes that it will help him, too.

[Tsuga]

:(

 

My whole family is like that. We talk in endless circles and lots of us have a habit of repeating the same thing in three different ways. We know this because we see the trait in one another and then it is pointed out that we share the same trait.

 

We never said we were cool. But we like each other and most of us are married to equally boorish, nerdy people.

 

The conversation spirals upward... it is not supposed to just go in a straight line. You get more and more details about something until you come to a common point in your head. Going through it like beginning, middle, end is not the same.

 

They are having a different kind of conversation, not one about feelings, but about ideas.

 

I think all the suggestions here are great in terms of "here's how you do what other people want" because that is important.

 

But as a parent, maybe accept that there is something that he is doing with his mind that might not be evident right away, value that, and see how that can be directed positively as well.