trailguides to learning vs. Sonlight

[3rugrats]

Can anyone whose used them both tell how these compare? 

 

From a very brief look over Trailguides, it looks to me like it uses some hands-on activities as well as read a-louds. 

 

Also, it can be used for multi-level students. I am wondering if that works well though, and how "challenging" is it? I find Sonlight chooses books which are above grade level and mature in content for the year they are in.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

I can answer questions about Trail Guides but I have not used Sonlight.  I have to run for the moment but if you think I can help, just ask.  I will check back in tomorrow morning.

 

Best wishes.

[OneStepAtATime]

O.k. like I mentioned last night I haven't used Sonlight so sadly I cannot compare the two.  But I can give you a bit of info on Trail Guides.  I wrote this on another post several months ago.  I have edited it but I can't seem to get rid of the text highlighting (I had to search for the old post).  Sorry for the highlighting.   :)

 

Honestly, I really LOVE Trail Guides To Learning and I wanted it to work but sadly it ended up being a poor fit for us, at least at the time we were using it.  We had an unusual situation, though, since both of my kids had been diagnosed with dyslexia and we were in the early, early stages of remediation.  I will give a list of the positives and negatives we ran into and why some things worked and some things didn't so you might have a better idea if it might work for you.

 

Positives:

1.  It covers pretty much every subject except math with the one curriculum but it doesn't work like a "box" curriculum.

2. There are a lot of hands-on activities, including in art, science, etc., but you can modify/add/drop as needed.

3.  You can use it at the same time with multiple ages/developmental levels.

4.  All the worksheets are clearly labeled by age/ability so printing out sheets appropriate for multiple ages is easy to do.

5.  It covers a lot of history in a lot more depth than I ever had in school and ties it all in far better than lessons the kids had at school.  I learned so much and so did the kids during the time we used it.

6.  The books were mostly interesting to read and the Middle School supplemental readings were ones that both kids enjoyed.  The books for the main curriculum work with mid to upper elementary, depending on the book, but there are also books for early elementary and a Middle School supplement that added much richer literature selections and lessons.  I used books from the upper elementary and Middle School selections, plus extra reading from other sources.

7.  Everything is scripted if you need a lot of guidance, but you can easily adapt and change the curriculum.  You don't need to follow the script.

8.  I priced it all out and actually buying everything through them was cheaper than piecemealing it so it was easy to order it, everything came in one box and I wasn't shopping all over for various books, components, etc.  I only had to get a few supplies for the science lessons.

9.  There was a nice, predictable flow to our day, but each day was a little different so it didn't get boring.  

10.  Knowledge is built gently over time, but in much greater depth by the end of it than most brick and mortar curriculums, especially since they tie the various subjects together in a kind of tapestry.

11. Sometimes the reference books and reading were not as useful for my kids as videos I found on you tube or DVD's we already had, but it was easy to read ahead, find areas where a video or DVD would work better or work well alongside the reading material and add that or insert it during a lesson.

12.  Lessons are structured so that Fridays are review from a bit different perspective and are lighter.  Nice to have that built in lighter review day so you can schedule co-op classes or doctors appointments on Fridays or switch days around and know that you can still get everything done.  Also, having built in review really helped solidify concepts for the kids.

13.  Each level is sub-sectioned into 6 weeks units, so you can easily schedule breaks every 6 weeks if you plot it out ahead of time.  Knowing that we were going to take a guaranteed one week break in 6 weeks was great for all of us psychologically.  Even after we stopped using it I have tried to keep to a 6 weeks on, one week off or at least lighter break as much as possible, but with Trail Guides it was especially nice since there was a great sense of closure for the one unit while anticipating what might happen with the next one.  And there was a great flow moving into the next unit, with everything building on previous knowledge.

13.  Paths of Settlement, the middle year, has a wonderful 6 weeks unit at the end of the year that incorporates your personal State history into the grand scheme of United States History at the Paths of Settlement level.  I was excited about that unit and still intend to use it at some point.

14.  For most people the system is really pretty open and go.  Just check ahead for any additional materials needed for science, take a few minutes to print out any work sheets and support material the kids will need, and off you go.  Once you get used to the system prep time should be no more than about 30-40 minutes over the weekend for the following week.

15.  There is a great support group on Yahoo that is usually very active and has lots of wonderful suggestions.

16.  The people at Trail Guides have been very kind and supportive.  It is a small business and mostly family run, so they are very personable (but sadly one of the wonderful creators died of a heart attack and she is sorely missed).

 

Cons

1.  Our biggest issue was that we would be reading 3-4 books at a time, every day but Friday.  When we startedTrail Guides neither child was reading independently enough to read these books on their own, so I had to read everything to them.  It was challenging for me to read passages from 3-4 reading books every M, T, W, Th, plus the other readings required for science/art/etc. as well as our heavy remediation lessons for reading/writing/spelling because of the dyslexia issues as well as a lot of remediation in math.  It also frustrated the kids that I had to keep switching between Trail Guides books instead of reading as far as they wanted (you normally take turns doing read alouds and do some reading silently and all the books are stretched out over weeks so you don't finish any reading quickly).

2.  My dear DD hates history and would get frustrated that she was having to do so much history every single day.  She also was frustrated that she had to learn next to her brother who LIVES all things history.  

3.  I found myself modifying a LOT of language arts material so that it wouldn't interfere with the remediation we were doing with Barton Reading and Spelling.  That caused some issues with planning...

4.  There is a bit of a learning curve with this material if you have never used anything like it before.  I would recommend reading the manual for the first half of the year all the way through so you see where they are going.  I second guessed some things and found out it was all going to be covered, just a bit later on.  The gentle increments seemed almost too babyish at first.  I finally realized it is actually very in depth and robust.  They just build the layers instead of hitting the kids over the head with everything all at once.  I just had to trust the material.

7.  I did feel that at times the kids needed more direct instruction in what was happening historically, instead of just gleaning it from the readings....in other words, sometimes I had to step in with more "facts and figures" info, and some time line references, etc. not to memorize for a test or anything but to clarify.

 

We finally dropped it, intending the respite to be temporary, but we just never went back to it.  I may still pick it up again for DS at the beginning of this next school year.  

 

By the way, we never did Paths of Exploration since both kids had covered that time period in school fairly well, but I hear that there are some awesome lessons in that level.  We started with the second level, Paths of Settlement, but it really wasn't an issue to start in the middle...

 

As I understand it, they are completing a three year cycle of Ancient and or World History that will follow the same format and be geared to middle/high school level, covering all subjects but math again.  I MAY look into that for DS for high school...depends on if we finish Paths of Settlement/Paths of Progress successfully.

 

Sorry this is so long.  I hope some of it helped, but feel free to ask questions.  I will do my best to answer them.

[3rugrats]

O.k. like I mentioned last night I haven't used Sonlight so sadly I cannot compare the two.  But I can give you a bit of info on Trail Guides.  I wrote this on another post several months ago.  I have edited it but I can't seem to get rid of the text highlighting (I had to search for the old post).  Sorry for the highlighting.   :)

 

Honestly, I really LOVE Trail Guides To Learning and I wanted it to work but sadly it ended up being a poor fit for us, at least at the time we were using it.  We had an unusual situation, though, since both of my kids had been diagnosed with dyslexia and we were in the early, early stages of remediation.  I will give a list of the positives and negatives we ran into and why some things worked and some things didn't so you might have a better idea if it might work for you.

 

Positives:

1.  It covers pretty much every subject except math with the one curriculum but it doesn't work like a "box" curriculum.

2. There are a lot of hands-on activities, including in art, science, etc., but you can modify/add/drop as needed.

3.  You can use it at the same time with multiple ages/developmental levels.

4.  All the worksheets are clearly labeled by age/ability so printing out sheets appropriate for multiple ages is easy to do.

5.  It covers a lot of history in a lot more depth than I ever had in school and ties it all in far better than lessons the kids had at school.  I learned so much and so did the kids during the time we used it.

6.  The books were mostly interesting to read and the Middle School supplemental readings were ones that both kids enjoyed.  The books for the main curriculum work with mid to upper elementary, depending on the book, but there are also books for early elementary and a Middle School supplement that added much richer literature selections and lessons.  I used books from the upper elementary and Middle School selections, plus extra reading from other sources.

7.  Everything is scripted if you need a lot of guidance, but you can easily adapt and change the curriculum.  You don't need to follow the script.

8.  I priced it all out and actually buying everything through them was cheaper than piecemealing it so it was easy to order it, everything came in one box and I wasn't shopping all over for various books, components, etc.  I only had to get a few supplies for the science lessons.

9.  There was a nice, predictable flow to our day, but each day was a little different so it didn't get boring.  

10.  Knowledge is built gently over time, but in much greater depth by the end of it than most brick and mortar curriculums, especially since they tie the various subjects together in a kind of tapestry.

11. Sometimes the reference books and reading were not as useful for my kids as videos I found on you tube or DVD's we already had, but it was easy to read ahead, find areas where a video or DVD would work better or work well alongside the reading material and add that or insert it during a lesson.

12.  Lessons are structured so that Fridays are review from a bit different perspective and are lighter.  Nice to have that built in lighter review day so you can schedule co-op classes or doctors appointments on Fridays or switch days around and know that you can still get everything done.  Also, having built in review really helped solidify concepts for the kids.

13.  Each level is sub-sectioned into 6 weeks units, so you can easily schedule breaks every 6 weeks if you plot it out ahead of time.  Knowing that we were going to take a guaranteed one week break in 6 weeks was great for all of us psychologically.  Even after we stopped using it I have tried to keep to a 6 weeks on, one week off or at least lighter break as much as possible, but with Trail Guides it was especially nice since there was a great sense of closure for the one unit while anticipating what might happen with the next one.  And there was a great flow moving into the next unit, with everything building on previous knowledge.

13.  Paths of Settlement, the middle year, has a wonderful 6 weeks unit at the end of the year that incorporates your personal State history into the grand scheme of United States History at the Paths of Settlement level.  I was excited about that unit and still intend to use it at some point.

14.  For most people the system is really pretty open and go.  Just check ahead for any additional materials needed for science, take a few minutes to print out any work sheets and support material the kids will need, and off you go.  Once you get used to the system prep time should be no more than about 30-40 minutes over the weekend for the following week.

15.  There is a great support group on Yahoo that is usually very active and has lots of wonderful suggestions.

16.  The people at Trail Guides have been very kind and supportive.  It is a small business and mostly family run, so they are very personable (but sadly one of the wonderful creators died of a heart attack and she is sorely missed).

 

Cons

1.  Our biggest issue was that we would be reading 3-4 books at a time, every day but Friday.  When we startedTrail Guides neither child was reading independently enough to read these books on their own, so I had to read everything to them.  It was challenging for me to read passages from 3-4 reading books every M, T, W, Th, plus the other readings required for science/art/etc. as well as our heavy remediation lessons for reading/writing/spelling because of the dyslexia issues as well as a lot of remediation in math.  It also frustrated the kids that I had to keep switching between Trail Guides books instead of reading as far as they wanted (you normally take turns doing read alouds and do some reading silently and all the books are stretched out over weeks so you don't finish any reading quickly).

2.  My dear DD hates history and would get frustrated that she was having to do so much history every single day.  She also was frustrated that she had to learn next to her brother who LIVES all things history.  

3.  I found myself modifying a LOT of language arts material so that it wouldn't interfere with the remediation we were doing with Barton Reading and Spelling.  That caused some issues with planning...

4.  There is a bit of a learning curve with this material if you have never used anything like it before.  I would recommend reading the manual for the first half of the year all the way through so you see where they are going.  I second guessed some things and found out it was all going to be covered, just a bit later on.  The gentle increments seemed almost too babyish at first.  I finally realized it is actually very in depth and robust.  They just build the layers instead of hitting the kids over the head with everything all at once.  I just had to trust the material.

7.  I did feel that at times the kids needed more direct instruction in what was happening historically, instead of just gleaning it from the readings....in other words, sometimes I had to step in with more "facts and figures" info, and some time line references, etc. not to memorize for a test or anything but to clarify.

 

We finally dropped it, intending the respite to be temporary, but we just never went back to it.  I may still pick it up again for DS at the beginning of this next school year.  

 

By the way, we never did Paths of Exploration since both kids had covered that time period in school fairly well, but I hear that there are some awesome lessons in that level.  We started with the second level, Paths of Settlement, but it really wasn't an issue to start in the middle...

 

As I understand it, they are completing a three year cycle of Ancient History that will follow the same format and be geared to middle/high school level, covering all subjects but math again.  I MAY look into that for DS for high school...depends on if we finish Paths of Settlement/Paths of Progress successfully.

 

Sorry this is so long.  I hope some of it helped, but feel free to ask questions.  I will do my best to answer them.

this was so very helpful! thank you for taking the time to share all your thoughts :)

 

as is normal w/ anything, I imagine, I am wondering if what we are doing is "the best" for my kids....there are so many great choices for curriculum. Have I found the very best??

 

We are using sonlight now, and while I love the philosphy, the book choices (and personally the lack of "hands on" activities) I wonder if "just reading lots of great books" will provide the retention I hope my kids will get over the years. Also, my DD is quite crafty and I wonder if  supplying other modes of learning like the notebooking, etc...will benefit her more. Like I said, I personally don't care for all that extra stuff, but at the same time, things feel a little empty without them. Granted, we've only done Sonlight for preschool, K and now into 1st grade. 

 

Another huge motivator I have for looking for something else is that I have 3 children, within 3 years of each other, and it is looking like my oldest is moving too quickly to combine with her brother (just 16 mo younger). My 3rd child may be easier to combine w/ my 2nd child with Sonlight, but then, I feel like the middle child will be held back in order to not push the 3rd too much. If they each have their own core, that will just be too much to read each day. And, one of the reasons I wanted to homeschool was to keep my kids together, and having them so close in age, you would think I could accomplish that somehow w/ some curriculum.

 

so questions:

 

 

So, if I am able to combine all 3 (or at least 2 of them) in POE, do I wait until the youngest is at least 1st or 2nd grade level? ( I see you can go up or down a grade from each program)?

 

Everything is based on American history only? no Ancients? World? (I think you said they were writing World for middle/high?

 

I noticed the POE focuses on the Explorers and Pilgrims. Are these subjects taught from the "traditional" kind of viewpoint or are they more accurate? ie: relationships w/ Native Americans and injustices by European settlers. 

 

Do you feel that you really can combine ages and meet individual needs at the same time?

 

Does the science/LA and history all weave together, or are they separate, just included in the box set? 

 

Did you like the LA? ( I am using Learning LA through Lit now--which I understand is based on Beechick's philosophy and we're not crazy about it)

 

Is this a Christian curriculum?

[OneStepAtATime]

 

so questions:

 

 

So, if I am able to combine all 3 (or at least 2 of them) in POE, do I wait until the youngest is at least 1st or 2nd grade level? ( I see you can go up or down a grade from each program)?

 

I am not entirely certain I am understanding the ages of your kids, so that will be a factor.  However, if the older two are at least in 2nd and 3rd grade you could go ahead and start all three in POE, you would just have to modify quite a bit for the little one.  The youngest could still participate in the hands on activities and listen to the readings.  The LA might be problematic but they could do oral work with the vocab and you could simplify the lessons, keep them more developmentally appropriate.  

 

Although, I think that they may have added some material for younger students and possibly some really early readers, too, so check that out.  You might not have to modify much at all.

 

Everything is based on American history only? no Ancients? World? (I think you said they were writing World for middle/high?

 

They start with a 3 year run at American History, which seems a bit excessive, except that they take it from the perspective of a more global view.  For instance, in POS, they start with the French and Indian War.  But they give you the context for what was happening in the world at that time and why this war happened and why it directly affected our Revolutionary War and how that affected the world.  I was never taught any of that in School.

 

World History is covered in the material they are working on now.  Only the first level of that is out and it is for Middle School with a High School supplement if you want High School Level.

 

If you want the kids to get some Ancient History now, you might look at Veritas Press Self-Paced.  It could be done on the side for fun.

 

I noticed the POE focuses on the Explorers and Pilgrims. Are these subjects taught from the "traditional" kind of viewpoint or are they more accurate? ie: relationships w/ Native Americans and injustices by European settlers. 

 

Well, we didn't use POE so I cannot speak to it directly.  However, based on what I saw in POS, they show both sides.  The material does not vilify either side, and indicates that a lot of mistakes were made because of poor communication and a lack of understanding between the different cultures.

 

Do you feel that you really can combine ages and meet individual needs at the same time?

 

Yes, absolutely, but if you have a wide disparity of ages/abilities or any children with special needs, you will need to really read through the material ahead of time, get to know it pretty well, then make sure you are organized.  Plan ahead.  Makes all the difference in the world.  And have a back up option for wiggly youngers.  An educational DVD or a box of fun but quiet toys or something of that nature.

 

Does the science/LA and history all weave together, or are they separate, just included in the box set? 

 

Yes, they weave together and reinforce each other.  Although if you had to, you could eliminate any one of those and with some modification the material would still hold together.  All the material interrelates to each other and reinforces each component.  

 

Did you like the LA? ( I am using Learning LA through Lit now--which I understand is based on Beechick's philosophy and we're not crazy about it)

 

If I had had neurotypical children not dealing with dyslexia, or even if they had already been further along in remediation, I think we would have used the LA in this curriculum to the fullest.  I really, really liked what I saw.  But I had to edit and modify and cut out quite a bit because of our situation with remediation.

 

Is this a Christian curriculum?

 

Yes.  I am sure it could be adapted to be more secular but a lot of material would have to be changed.  

HTH.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Oh, if you did decide to use Trail Guides, I would strongly encourage you to join the Yahoo group.  Read through past posts.  Some great ideas and suggestions on there.

 

And I found that the kids were really engaged when we added in a few things, like some you tube videos, trips to the library to do additional research, field trips to reinforce what we were learning, but honestly the material is pretty self-contained.  As long as you have all the science materials on hand, you could just use what is in the box and never go anywhere if you needed some stay at home time.

[Ewe Mama]

We have used both, although it has been several years since we used Sonlight. I never used Sonlight with all of our children, only the eldest. It jumped around from one book to another, which was frustrating to Joy. We continue to use their booklists, but skip the guides. I don't recall there being much in the way of hands on projects in Sonlight's history cores.

 

I loved the idea of Trail Guides POE for combining all of our kiddos. The first couple of weeks were a learning curve that I expected and then it sort of fell apart for us. My youngest is a strong reader, but she needed help with her writing skills, all of the boys did fine with it, and Joy was rather bored (even with the work for the older levels added on) because she had to wait for everyone else to finish before we moved on to the next topic. I would have to keep calling the kids back to the table after they had wandered off while waiting for everyone to finish their work. The ones who had been done would grumble because they had gotten interested in doing something else and had to come back and get started again. It ended up taking longer than what we had been doing before POE, so I shelved it.

 

I really wanted it to work, and I think it would have been perfect for our three boys who all work at about the same pace and grade level, but our girls threw off the tempo, one by slowing the boys down and the elder by wanting to go faster, or by being a slow perfectionist.

 

It is touted as being CM in flavor, but it didn't feel very CM to me. There were directed questions that helped with narrating, which we liked, but beyond that, it was lots of printed worksheets. The geography portion was very interesting. The copy work passages were quite long and that was what led to the most frustration for my younger kids.

[Ewe Mama]

It is a Christian curriculum.

[Ewe Mama]

I would wait to use this until at least third grade, because there is a lot of writing involved. The reading can be done by strong readers of any age, it's the writing that can cause difficulties for younger kiddos.

[3rugrats]

HTH.   :)

thanks again! that does:)

[3rugrats]

I would wait to use this until at least third grade, because there is a lot of writing involved. The reading can be done by strong readers of any age, it's the writing that can cause difficulties for younger kiddos.

 

 when you say a lot of writing, and a lot of worksheets, did you feel this was helpful/necessary or more busy work?

 

My oldest is not a strong writer, so this would be a huge consideration for us. 

[SilverMoon]

Great thread! This is on my considering list for next school year. My girls will be 7yo/2nd and 10yo/5th then. They're light years apart academically, but they enjoy sharing subjects and work together well. They really, really, really like activities and projects, and I won't even think of them unless they're written into the plans.:p

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree there was a lot of writing.  If writing is an issue, I strongly encourage people to modify.  Even the creators told me to modify whatever needed modifying.  With DS, he dictated to me.  DD just did shorter passages or dictated.  We also elimnated assignments when I thought they were better served dealing with the material in a different way.  There IS a lot of writing, but the creators said these were guidelines and each parent should feel free to modify to make the material appropriate for their own children.  I also modified the reading requirements and was encouraged to do so.

 

FWIW, we also only used some of the workbook pages.  I do not think they were busy work.  Most of what the worksheets were doing seemed very valid.  But we modified them quite a bit.  A lot we made more hands-on.  Like for state mapping, we created the states out of clay, the kids painted the landmarks instead of drawing them in, then I printed out the names of the rivers/landmarks etc.on stickers.  The kids then attached the names to toothpicks and stuck then in their clay maps.  They loved it.

 

When we were supposed to write about what it would be like to live without electricity, I modified the activity.  We took colored post it notes and ran around the house sticking the little post it notes on anything that needed electricity.  Then we went several hours without being able to use any of those items.  The kids also told me what they thought the equivalent item would have been back before the Revolutionary War or if there was even a need for such an item at that time then we wrote that information on the post it note for each item (sometimes they dictated).  Then they gathered up all the post it notes and put them in a notebook.  They then wrote a brief summary of what they had found interesting/important.  They LOVED doing that and it made it very clear how dependent we are on electricity today (the house was a sea of post it notes so very visual way to represent what the lesson was about, as well as getting them physically moving so they were more energetic and engaged for the rest of the lesson).

 

Another modification I did that worked really well:  I sometimes rotated assignments so one would be working in depth on one thing while another was working in depth on another thing, then they would give reports and ask questions.   They both got a lot out of the material without each one having to do every single thing.

 

Of course those are modification for POS and you would probably start with POE.  That is why I say if you were to use this, I encourage you to make certain that you read through the material ahead of time and really think through what you would want to keep, modify, whatever.  And eliminate whatever doesn't work.  There is a lot here that is very useful.  

 

I very much agree, though, that if you are using it with a wide age range, you are going to need to plan out the pacing ahead of time and maybe change things up quite a bit.  And I would not start this program with a child under 2nd grade unless they are just part time participants for the hands on stuff and some of the read alouds.

[Ewe Mama]

The biggest thing is the copy work. This is expected to be done four days each week, so you can't really break it down into smaller portions without getting further and further behind.

 

This is all of the writing for the second day of the first week.

 

Write four lines of a poem for copy work.

 

Use the clues to figure out which spelling word is being described for six of the words and write your own clues for the remaining two words.

 

Write about a trip to your favorite store using your senses to describe what you see, hear, smell, feel, and taste.

 

Unscramble the spelling words.

 

Make a Persian rug design pattern on graph paper.

 

It doesn't really look like a lot, but it turns out to be quite challenging. I spent a lot of time writing the words they wanted to use on a dry erase board so they could copy them for their trip to the store stories and writing their own spelling word clues.

[OneStepAtATime]

Totally get what you are saying, Ewe Mama.  The copywork was too much for my kids.  I modified the heck out of the copywork.

 

I know that a lot of people feel lots of copywork is necessary.  It was a nightmare for my kids so we eliminated quite a bit.  One has dysgraphia, though, so handwriting is challenging in general.  They still retained the material really well and honestly didn't need all that copywork.  We discussed, we read the material, we worked some on the dry erase, but we did cut out quite a bit.  And actually for some stuff I used the Start Write software and typed out some of the copywork in New American Cursive.  The kids traced the passages for cursive practice and still had the passages in their notebooks.  It worked much better than just mounds of copywork.

 

For unscrambling spelling words, we sometimes used letter tiles and they unscrambled the letter tiles to work on words (liked that better than all the writing) but mainly we used the spelling words for vocabulary since we were using a dyslexia specific program for spelling.

[Ewe Mama]

Modification is definitely the key to using it successfully. I am a modifying failure.

[OneStepAtATime]

Modification is definitely the key to using it successfully. I am a modifying failure.

:grouphug:

 

I only had two kids.  Modification goes a lot more smoothly, IMO, if you only have two kids.  :)  Plus, I HAD to modify for the learning issues anyway, so no matter what we used I knew going into it I was going to have to modify.  

[alisoncooks]

:lurk5:

Love reading more about this.  I have it on the docket for the year after next (with a 3rd and 5th grader). I think it looks great but it does take a bit of a leap of faith to go for an all-in-one program like this... 

[Ewe Mama]

I'm willing to sell my second edition set of POE, if anyone is interested, or will be after the holidays. The second book is still in shrink wrap and the first book is in excellent condition.

 

Let me know via PM.