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#1 Spring Flower

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Posted Yesterday, 03:37 PM

First off, we live in a very well educated community with decent pubic schools. We have full day Kindergarten and red shirting is expected for young 5 year olds.

 

I was recently in a conversation with a bunch of moms during DD's dance class. One mom pulls her DD out half day for kindergarten and does math (which is usually taught in the afternoon) at home with her. Another mom is a volunteer in the afternoons during math time in the same class. The volunteer mom was telling everyone about how she was asked by the teacher to do an informal assessment of each of the children. The children were supposed to count as high as possible. 

 

At this point in the conversation I thought, "Wow! That would take forever to assess 26 children." DS5 once counted all the days on a calendar (365) and I'm sure he could go higher if he had the motivation. I realize he is very advanced at math but even my 1 year old can count to 20. 

 

Apparently, according to the mom who did the assessment, most children in the class were able to count to 29. One child only made it to 13, a few only made it to 20, and one made it to 39. I about died when she told us that! I did what I could to disguise my shock. The mom who pulls her daughter out half day said, "Good! DD can count to 29 so I know we are right on track." 

 

I realized I that I am living in a bubble with my children. Obviously I have NO CLUE what is normal academic development for young children. Anyone else feel this way sometimes?



#2 quark

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Posted Yesterday, 03:45 PM

Not only were we living in said bubble, I also had no idea when schools were on holiday or that kiddos were not reading certain books at certain ages. One mom proudly told me her 8th grader was reading The Crucible and A Midsummer Night's Dream and I know she was disappointed when I just stupidly smiled at her.

 

Nowadays I just shrug it off as different strokes for different folks and move on. You do find yourself slowly sharing less and less about what your kids are doing though and that to me makes forums like these all the more precious.



#3 wapiti

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Posted Yesterday, 03:52 PM

Yes.  Until now, when my sixth child who is in K can't get past 12 without making a mistake  :tongue_smilie:.  She messes up the teens, but then does ok after 20.  And "thirty" and "forty" sound the same coming out of her mouth, but that's more of a speech thing.  Kids have their own timetable...

 

Really, though, I can't recall whether counting to one hundred is a K or 1st grade skill - it's one or the other.



#4 quark

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Posted Yesterday, 03:54 PM

Kids have their own timetable...

 

So true. :p My 12-year-old still can't climb monkey bars.



#5 Heigh Ho

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Posted Yesterday, 03:55 PM

I live in a diverse area. What I've realized is that it makes a significant difference academically if the child comes from a literate family that interacts with their children and provides access to books or if they live in a no-reading aloud/no print in house family and are put out in the yard to play daily with others their age. The lack of vocab development from the latter practice is stunning.

 

Surpised that mom is talking though....student test scores are supposed to be confidential.

 

I didn't think counting to 100 was expected until the 100th Day of Kindy...maybe it is already for those of you that start before Labor Day. More importantly than reciting the numbers to 100+ is having 1:1 correspondence.....but its a nice sign that the memory is there.

ETA: EngageNY says its in Kindy Math Module 5 of the 6 modules  -- https://www.engageny...matics-module-5



#6 sunnyday

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Posted Yesterday, 04:05 PM

Really, though, I can't recall whether counting to one hundred is a K or 1st grade skill.

 

It's been an end-of-K skill since my kids have been in school, anyway.

 

My DS entered kindergarten not able to count past the teens. He left kindergarten understanding place value and counting above a thousand and doing three-digit addition. Advanced kids are often advanced from the start, but kindergarten is a time of developmental growth as well as foundational skills acquisition. Give the kiddos a break. There was a time that kindergarten meant coming in with a blank slate, and amazingly, most adults still managed to achieve that lauded counting-above-40 skill by the time they needed it to pay the mortgage. ;)

 

We're on-schedule in the kindergarten math workbook and currently working on "less than" and "greater than" concepts with groups of 3-8 objects, as well as counting with one-to-one correspondence for groups of 5-10 objects. The teacher really likes making the children write numbers to 40 for some reason, even though only about half of them are counting above 20, and some are struggling mightily with fine motor skills. (I was the parent who did the assessments this month, and also ran the math small groups this week.)



#7 amsunshine

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Posted Yesterday, 04:36 PM

Yes.  Until now, when my sixth child who is in K can't get past 12 without making a mistake  :tongue_smilie:.  She messes up the teens, but then does ok after 20.  And "thirty" and "forty" sound the same coming out of her mouth, but that's more of a speech thing.  Kids have their own timetable...

 

Really, though, I can't recall whether counting to one hundred is a K or 1st grade skill - it's one or the other.

In our area schools, it's a first grade skill.



#8 Arcadia

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Posted Yesterday, 04:47 PM

Really, though, I can't recall whether counting to one hundred is a K or 1st grade skill - it's one or the other.


Counting and writing to 100 is kindergarten. Counting and writing to 1000 by skip counting in 2s and 5s is 1st grade here. No one is retain though.

#9 Mike in SA

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Posted Yesterday, 04:59 PM

I'm actually stunned.  That doesn't happen all that often.  :)

 

I was counting to one centillion (ok, not by ones).  Ds8, when he was in K, was given a 100th day of schooltask, to put 100 objects on a poster.  All the kids did it.  He did the first 100 digits of pi, in ancient Greek.  We're obviously still in our bubble.



#10 madteaparty

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Posted Yesterday, 05:02 PM

only if you mean a reverse bubble, in that my little kid is behind the kids that are behind your kids ;)

 



#11 shawthorne44

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Posted Yesterday, 05:02 PM

Yeah, I totally understand that.  I think even DD doesn't understand what other kids her age can do.  She is 4.5 and I know she is frustrated that she can't read as well as mommy and daddy.  



#12 Gil

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Posted Yesterday, 05:08 PM

I don't think its so much as living in a bubble as it is just marching to the beat of your families own drum. Home life plays a huge role in child development. Parenting style plays a huge role, the personalities of the parents and the children play a huge role. Some kids are naturally curious about the world, others are more open to instruction but wouldn't seek it out unless they knew to do so. Others are naturally interested in only one or two things and thats fine too. There isn't anything wrong with not being able to count to 100 in the 1st half of K (or 1st) really. Some kids will start out knowing nothing and graduate at the top of the class, its not unheard of. Some people subscribe strongly to the idea of a slow start, others to a moderate pace, others to 10 minutes of academics a day, etc. Thats fine. Its all good.

 

 



#13 desertflower

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Posted Yesterday, 05:14 PM

I'm actually stunned. That doesn't happen all that often. :)

I was counting to one centillion (ok, not by ones). Ds8, when he was in K, was given a 100th day of schooltask, to put 100 objects on a poster. All the kids did it. He did the first 100 digits of pi, in anciewownt Greek. We're obviously still in our bubble.


Wow. Your kids are really smart!

#14 desertflower

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Posted Yesterday, 05:17 PM

Yes. I agree OP.

#15 SKL

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Posted Yesterday, 05:46 PM

Doesn't surprise me.  Funny thing, my eldest's report card said she could count to something like 39 in the 1st quarter and then it said something like 7 or 17 in the second quarter.  I didn't really need a report card to tell me how high my kids can count, but I have learned not to put too much stock in those quick checks.

 

The goal for end of KG was 50.

 

When my kids were in KG, toward the end of the year, I visited what would be their 1st grade.  I mentioned that my youngest had been able to count to 100 (+)  for some time [since before KG started].  The 1st grade teacher said, maybe my kid could come and teach her first graders to do that.

 

When my kid sister was in KG, they only expected kids to go up to 10.  (I'm sure there were many who counted higher, but they didn't have to in order to pass KG.)

 

But because I have a kid who has challenges and tests about average, I am aware that my bright kid's achievements can't be used as any kind of benchmark for other kids.



#16 SKL

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Posted Yesterday, 05:53 PM

Oh, I remember that I did ask about how my eldest's counting ability could have gone down so much from Q1 to Q2.  The teacher explained that they would use counters and count on (up to the # of counters) and the checker would write down the last correct number before which there was no pause, hesitation, etc.  So maybe in Q2 my kid got distracted, or paused to wonder whether the red counters should be included as well as the yellow or something.  Who knows.... :p



#17 1053

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Posted Yesterday, 05:55 PM

DD3 has been picking things up by osmosis (we don't teach anything) and recently made this counting effort that was wrong but logical

...

twenty eight

twenty nine

twenty ten

twenty eleven

twenty twelve... :)

 

When DS8 was about two he said

one hundred and two

one hundred and one

one hundred

fifty nine

fifty eight

fifty seven

...

It turns out he was "learning" to count backwards by watching the microwave. :)

 



#18 dmmetler

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Posted Yesterday, 06:13 PM

I think it's more a case of "it's normal for you". 

 

I've found myself doing that. Having long involved conversations in full paragraphs with a 2 yr old at home, and then going into my classroom and lecturing on normal language development between 24-36 months and activities teachers/caregivers in this age group may use to support developing vocabulary and communications skills-and somehow, managing to keep two completely contrary views of "normal" in my head at one time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#19 boscopup

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Posted Yesterday, 06:58 PM

Yeah, this is why I had to consult online milestone charts and read what was expected in schools at various grades to see what was normal. If you'd asked any of my kids in K to count as high as they could, you'd be sitting there a LONG time. Both parents are mathy, so it's normal to us.

Likewise, when my oldest entered K reading at a mid 2nd grade level and they were still learning letters at the beginning of the year, I had to realize that most kids aren't reading upon entering K. In fact, several didn't start reading cvc words until mid-2nd semester. One of those kids ended up in the highest reading group in first grade, reading above grade level at that point.

The end of year K requirements at DS1's school were to count to 100, read cvc words, and read the K level Dolch sight words. They didn't hold kids back either. 3 of the 17 kids were not reading upon entering first grade.

#20 Mike in SA

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Posted Yesterday, 07:12 PM

Wow. Your kids are really smart!

 

Maybe, but I never quite accept that.  DW and I both have mathematics degrees, so I don't expect mathematical normalcy with our kids -- they are forced to live with math nerds.



#21 kiana

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Posted Yesterday, 07:14 PM

Maybe, but I never quite accept that.  DW and I both have mathematics degrees, so I don't expect mathematical normalcy with our kids -- they are forced to live with math nerds.

 

Nature and nurture go hand in hand. 



#22 ananemone

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Posted Yesterday, 07:14 PM

I don't think its so much as living in a bubble as it is just marching to the beat of your families own drum. Home life plays a huge role in child development. Parenting style plays a huge role, the personalities of the parents and the children play a huge role. Some kids are naturally curious about the world, others are more open to instruction but wouldn't seek it out unless they knew to do so. Others are naturally interested in only one or two things and thats fine too. There isn't anything wrong with not being able to count to 100 in the 1st half of K (or 1st) really. Some kids will start out knowing nothing and graduate at the top of the class, its not unheard of. Some people subscribe strongly to the idea of a slow start, others to a moderate pace, others to 10 minutes of academics a day, etc. Thats fine. Its all good.

 

Yes, I think part of it is family culture/interests.  Many relatively bright kids (say IQ 120+, assuming you can measure it that early) could probably learn to count to 300 by age 4 if they were inspired to do so, or exposed to numbers early, or whatever.  Others may memorize/identify all the different makes and models of cars by the headlights at night (that's the kind I have), or know all the words to a very long beloved family song, or something. DD3 could say the greek alphabet at an early age 2 because her older sister was learning it, but once older sister stopped singing it DD3's interest waned; she is now 3 and prefers nursery rhymes, which she's memorized instead of greek.  I find nursery rhymes more pleasant to listen to anyway :)

 

Identifying a dodecagon as such vs identifying a 1994 Ford Taurus as such is, imo, more or less the same thing.  



#23 MaryAnnA

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Posted Yesterday, 08:49 PM

Isn't counting really just memorizing? It certainly is at first. The toddler learns to recite the numbers but can't put one object with the number 1, two with 2, etc. It's a developmental thing for most children. And the way we say the teens is confusing for many (most) children. Both of mine have written 21 for 12. I am pleased though, that my Ker can tell me how many tens are in the numbers and is getting an understanding of place value. Isn't that more important than memorizing how to say the numbers? IDK, I guess the OP's point was that some children really DO get all of this at a young age. And that's fine. It irritates me that it was once okay for 5 year olds to be able to count to 10 or 20 and now they have to count to 100 (or whatever). For many children, all that time spent memorizing rote counting sequences could have been better spent actually understanding what 21 means.

#24 IsabelC

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Posted Yesterday, 09:50 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in counting. It's simply a matter of how much practice a kid has had. If a kid can't (or doesn't choose to on that day) count to x, it probably just means that the kid isn't particularly interested in counting, or the parents haven't particularly pushed it. (Or possibly they are well read parents who have decided to encourage subitizing instead of counting.)

 

What really struck me was firstly that the teacher asked a volunteer parent to assess the kids (even 'informally'), and secondly that the parent in question saw fit to gossip about the kids' performances during the assessment. That is inappropriate.



#25 raptor_dad

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Posted Yesterday, 10:09 PM

Yes.  Until now, when my sixth child who is in K can't get past 12 without making a mistake  :tongue_smilie:.  She messes up the teens, but then does ok after 20.  And "thirty" and "forty" sound the same coming out of her mouth, but that's more of a speech thing.  Kids have their own timetable...

 

Really, though, I can't recall whether counting to one hundred is a K or 1st grade skill - it's one or the other.

 

DS8 who is doing 5th grade math has only recently resolved this... firtteen with either a 3 or 4...or... firty with a 3 or 4 was a common element of our math for a couple of years... he clearly didn't hear a difference so specified as needed... it has now resolved :)... Well before the 9yo threshold for more PS speech therapy...



#26 madteaparty

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Posted Yesterday, 11:01 PM

What really struck me was firstly that the teacher asked a volunteer parent to assess the kids (even 'informally'), and secondly that the parent in question saw fit to gossip about the kids' performances during the assessment. That is inappropriate.

No kidding. I'm trying to picture the adult conversation on how far the kids can count and just... Can't.
Also, I can't say I've ever counted past 20 with my DD3. I mean it never came up.

#27 shawthorne44

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Posted Yesterday, 11:18 PM

Maybe, but I never quite accept that.  DW and I both have mathematics degrees, so I don't expect mathematical normalcy with our kids -- they are forced to live with math nerds.

 

I don't remember where I heard this.  It was a story told by someone on a plane listening to another passenger quiz his small child on the name of certain colors.  For one the kid answered "Green", the father said, "No, that is chartreuse."  The father was an artist and chartreuse was not green for the same reason it was blue.  It just wasn't.  

 

I don't know why but our DD has always wanted to know how many things there were.  I remember many times going down the library steps with her when she was so small I had to stoop to hold her hand, and she'd count the steps as she went down.  For a long time she could count to 26 or 27 and no more, because that was how many steps there were.  



#28 Binip

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Posted Yesterday, 11:59 PM

The PBS development tracker gives clear, accurate norms of understanding for early childhood. Common Core standards give clear, specific expectations for normal areas of knowledge for school-aged children.

 

You're going to be stuck in your bubble anyway, but you might as well know what is actually statistically normal so you won't pooh-pooh legitimate brags.



#29 Tanikit

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Posted Today, 12:00 AM

I don't know - maybe everyone is in a bubble - even those who are supposedly average may not know what average is? I have spoken to numerous parents of grade 1 children and what I have realised is that even though some of them go to the same type of schools (or even the same school) their abilities vary. And when it comes to non-academic skills they vary even more wildly - watching at our gym class and having seen the list of the children's ages in each level there is great discrepancy there and not only from starting at different ages - some just take longer to get the same skills. We have public school, private school and homeschooled kids sitting at late gym classes doing homework and it is very interesting to see what they are all doing and also how the parents react to how their child is managing. 

 

Personally though - if a parent is saying their child did something "great" we probably should say: "That sounds great" - maybe the child really struggled and even though they are behind the average, the hard work put in is worth praising. What is it that is important to praise or brag about - I would imagine that a certain amount of wise decision making and also some perseverance from my child would come high on my list (I'll probably need reminding that I said this some day).



#30 quark

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Posted Today, 12:43 AM

DD3 has been picking things up by osmosis (we don't teach anything) and recently made this counting effort that was wrong but logical

...

twenty eight

twenty nine

twenty ten

twenty eleven

twenty twelve... :)

 

When DS8 was about two he said

one hundred and two

one hundred and one

one hundred

fifty nine

fifty eight

fifty seven

...

It turns out he was "learning" to count backwards by watching the microwave. :)

Oh my, your children are so adorable. :001_wub:



#31 Arcadia

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Posted Today, 01:22 AM

At this point in the conversation I thought, "Wow! That would take forever to assess 26 children." DS5 once counted all the days on a calendar (365) and I'm sure he could go higher if he had the motivation.


In public school, these "tests" are usually 2-3 mins per kid. Most kids would stop before the time is up. If the child is still counting, the teacher might just out of interest see when the child would stop, or just write down that the child reach whatever number before time ran out.
His kindergarten teacher was given a week to do and finish testing which was done at the start of school year.

My kid's kindergarten teacher went through all his testing results at the first teacher conference which was 30-45 mins long and can go into overtime.

I'm living in a bilingual bubble, kids will happily count in their native languages as well :lol:
A mother was helping her child with public shool math homework at the library and she explained everything in Korean :)

I think everyone has the right to brag if they want to. What is easy for one person might be hard for another. You can always walk away.

#32 IsabelC

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Posted Today, 01:48 AM

I think everyone has the right to brag if they want to. What is easy for one person might be hard for another. You can always walk away.

 

Yes, absolutely! And anyway, it's not always so much bragging as simply taking pleasure in our children's achievements, whatever these may be. (I for one am very proud of my son because he is now 'only' half a year behind in his math!)

 

But yes, developmental tracker is useful for those of use who don't always even know what city the ballpark is in, so to speak.



#33 IsabelC

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Posted Today, 01:54 AM

I don't remember where I heard this.  It was a story told by someone on a plane listening to another passenger quiz his small child on the name of certain colors.  For one the kid answered "Green", the father said, "No, that is chartreuse."  The father was an artist and chartreuse was not green for the same reason it was blue.  It just wasn't.  

 

 

Love this story! And I have to confess that I do try to encourage the kids to use color terms like cerulean, lime and mauve sometimes instead of ones like blue, green and purple. Although sometimes you end up in weird debates such as what, precisely, is the difference between terracotta and burnt sienna.



#34 loesje22000

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Posted Today, 03:23 AM

Just smiling as the standard school progress is here:
Age 3: counting to three
Age 4: counting to ten
Age 5: counting to twenty, back and forwards
Age 6: adding and subtracting to 20, telling time whole and half hours
Age 7: arithmatic to 100, telling time incl. quarters

Even a 'standard' progress in the USA could be considered 'advanced'

#35 Crimson Wife

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Posted Today, 10:26 AM

I remember being shocked at reading a statistic when my oldest was little that only 3% of entering K students can decode and only 1% can read fluently. Where I was living at the time, it was about half entering K reading and the other half not. I knew that my DD reading chapter books entering K was ahead of the curve, but I didn't realize that even being able to read a BOB book put a kid very much in the minority in this country.

 

My little one was not yet decoding when she started K (she can now do it S-L-O-W-L-Y) and the teacher was just happy that she knew all her letters and their sounds.



#36 dmmetler

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Posted Today, 10:41 AM

In my case, it's never been considering other kids to be behind when they were average. I know what "Average" looks like, and I know what the tail end of "average" looks like. I'll happily applaud a cute little 6 yr old who brings a BOB book to read to me, or praise a 5 yr old who counts to 20 and substitutes eleventeen for seventeen.

 

But it has kind of been a "Dragging me kicking and screaming" to accept that DD really is substantially above average.  Boards like this are great for supporting that minor delusion, because she IS behind some of the other kids her age here in various areas (9 yr old doing AOPS algebra doesn't seem a big deal when there are kids doing it at 7). So, for me, it wasn't a big deal that my preschooler was demanding to go to the college library for more books on paleontology, because, after all, all kids like dinosaurs, right? It wasn't until I had test data in my face that my 4 yr old was reading and comprehending post-high school level content that it hit me that, yeah, I suppose she is reading at a different level than most kindergartners and that maybe a grade skip and going up to a higher grade level for reading might not be enough to keep her from being totally miserable.

 

 



#37 Heigh Ho

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Posted Today, 10:58 AM

In my diverse district, its readily apparent that average depends on demographic. We have very very few kids that are '2's'...its a bimodal distribution of 'high 3s and 4s' mixed with '1s'.

 

Common Core does define average for children coming in as 1s. It does not define average for children of educated parents...its goals are lower and later than they need. CC is pushing families out of this area, because the district does not want to offer academics at their level of instructional need. They are quite blunt, telling parents to put their children in private school.  And the parents do.  Who needs to hear their Kinder lost recess again because he couldn't twiddle his thumbs all morning, waiting for the class to do something new to him? Or to hear he's been attacked because he was quietly sitting back reading his book, and didn't notice his frustrated classmate approaching, angered because he didn't win the race he views reading to be.



#38 sunnyday

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Posted Today, 12:38 PM

What really struck me was firstly that the teacher asked a volunteer parent to assess the kids (even 'informally'), and secondly that the parent in question saw fit to gossip about the kids' performances during the assessment. That is inappropriate.

 

IMO this, too, is a kind of bubble. :) In my kids' reality, a single teacher with 15-25 kids and no aides who has about 12 hours per week most weeks to get the children ready for first grade, isn't going to get everything she needs done if she doesn't delegate some stuff to classroom volunteers.




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