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High School English w/o Literature


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I despise poetry and neglected that with my kids.  I really regret it now.  I should have at least given them some poetry to read and respond to.  (Well, I guess I did a little, but not much.)

 

I think kids should be exposed to a little bit of everything, great literature included.  I don't think high school English is complete without some literature.  If they go to college they will almost certainly have to take at least one class that has a literature component, so they should have some exposure.  (I guess I shouldn't say "almost certainly" but in my experience and from what I've observed pretty much all college GE requirements include English which include some form of lit.  Of course I could be wrong.)

 

There are lots of other books besides The Grapes of Wrath.

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Literature that stays at the plot-and character-analysis level can be quite dull for some. It doesn't get interesting until you consider the subtext. Such as Nigerian author Chinua Achebe writing Things Fall Apart as a response to the colonialism of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Or the Dominican-born Jean Rhys writing Wide Sargasso Sea as a response to the wife in the attic in Jane Eyre. There are tons of fabulous films that go with so many novels, and even Shakespeare, that reading a novel/play and watching a film version can be quite interesting, particularly in comparing artistic decisions the authors and filmmakers made.

 

Maria

 

 

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Maybe he could do an on-line class, or a local co-op class or self-study with a more independent curriculum for the Literature part.  Even if you hated it, he might love some really high quality literature studies and if he were doing the class on-line you wouldn't have to be as involved.  He might like to have discussions with peers and get a lot out of that.

 

 

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re: "detesting"

Well, JMO but "detesting" alone is not a reason to not do a required school subject or aspect of a subject. :) My math-struggler DS detested all aspects of Algebra 1 and 2, but that didn't mean we could just do high school without them. ;)

 

re: what you can gain from Literature:

Reading, analyzing, discussing, and writing about Literature helps to develop critical reasoning, logic, and analysis skills in different ways than the sciences and maths do. And you will be expected to read, analyze, and write about *some* Literature in the required Writing 101 and 102 courses for a college degree. (Doing some in high school is extremely helpful prep for that.) Reading classic Literature better helps you understand history and culture, and gives you a similar foundation to better engage with and understand your own culture.

 

Fortunately, homeschooling allows you some flexibility. You could choose to weight the English credits more heavily towards the writing aspect (Composition, Journalism, Technical Writing, Rhetoric (as in public speaking/debate), or Creative Writing), and less heavily towards the literature aspect.

 

And of course, as a homeschooler, you get to choose WHICH works to cover for the Literature portion. IMO, this is where you would have the most ability to make the English credits more "palatable". Include a good amount of non-fiction (biographies, essays), plays (which you can also enjoy by watching productions of them), and poetry. And for the fiction, select works that would have the best chance of engaging your interest and getting you thinking.

 

Some examples:

 

- if you are more of a STEM person, spend a year on classic science fiction and/or dystopian works, and discuss/write about the philosophies and issues they bring up -- the impact of technology and science on people and societies, for example.

 

- if you are interested in another culture/other cultures, read Literature from other nations

 

- if you have an off-beat sense of humor, you might try a unit of works on satire and parody (Swift, Voltaire, Thackery, etc…)

 

You get the idea. :) As a starting point, the two examples of works you mentioned you disliked are both by American authors, so I would recommend trying something *other* than American Lit. ;) BEST of luck in your high school English adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

ETA:

I just realized from the signature of original poster that this was posted by a parent not a high school student. In that case, outsourcing would very work well -- your student would get all aspects of the English credit needed, and you would not have to be involved with the fiction aspect. There are quite a few good online courses out there. Or, locally, you may have the ability to enroll your student in 1-2 classes at a public or charter high school, or even a good quality homeschool co-op class. Or, you might look into dual enrollment with the local community college. BEST of luck in finding an alternative that works well for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

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Can we do high school English that focuses on writing and composition and skip the literature?  I see no real reason to study literature...I kinda detest fiction.

 

I'm not sure that I ever gained anything from having suffered through the Grapes of Wrath or The House of the Seven Gables.

 

Am I alone in my aversion??

 

No. Sorry. It is assumed that each year of high school English includes composition and literature, with grammar thrown in if necessary.

 

I don't like complex, comprehensive literature analysis, and I didn't care for some of the works I had to study over the years (A Tale of Two Cities...OMG, just shoot me now!), but I'm glad that I did it, because those works are part of our heritage, works which all of us should be familiar with. And we should know what someone means when he talks about this event being a foreshadowing of some other event, or makes a comment about a protagonist, or jokes about haiku or iambic pentameter. Some of our education includes exposure to things we wouldn't necessarily experience on our own. It was good that you had to read fiction.

 

FTR, I read the House of the Seven Gables just because I wanted to (and I wasn't impressed). :D

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Fortunately, homeschooling allows you some flexibility. You could choose to weight the English credits more heavily towards the writing aspect (Composition, Journalism, Technical Writing, Rhetoric (as in public speaking/debate), or Creative Writing), and less heavily towards the literature aspect.

 

Thank you so much Lori!!  I will definitely take your advice and weigh more heavily on the writing aspect.  I see so much more value in making him a great writer!!

 

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Consider reading this first:

 

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/01/does-great-literature-make-us-better/

 

http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/03/why-we-should-read-literature/

 

Stories are ways of people making sense in a complex world.

 

I hate Hemingway's works (and am not a big fan of his public persona, either) but I love Fitzgerald. Hated Ethan Frome, tolerated the Crucible. Hated, hated, hated The Scarlet Letter, but when I read Moby Dick in my 30s I thought--holy crap--this guy is funny. This is actually a funny book about really modern themes. It's pretty meta, actually, and the whaling stuff is also fairly amusing once you get into it, provided you have a dark sense of humor.

 

I am not a fan of Dickens, but I love Salman Rushdie. Rushdie is like, the Dickens of this generation. Or more.He is mo betta than Dickens.

 

You really can't miss the carnival days of Midnight's Children.

 

And frankly, if for no other reason than to understand the relationship between East and West as it's playing out RIGHT NOW across Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and many parts of Asia, how can you miss Pamuk's White Castle? But if you refuse to read the White Castle, because you don't like fiction (whatever that means... it's not really fiction, by the way, they are histories with all the boring in between parts taken out and the dreams included), well, at least My Name Is Red.

 

There are some things that cannot be expressed in nonfiction. Those are expressed through art and hugs.

 

Don't over-analyze--I don't remember anything we analyzed--but please, don't forgo the fart scenes in Canterbury Tales, when he climbs up a ladder and gets farted on. That made high school for me. I had some hope in the future when we got to that part.

 

Please do not give up the porn scene in Slaughterhouse Five. Okay, so perhaps you don't want to hear about what happens when your soul goes outside of time because you can't fall in love on Earth because war broke your insides (my soul has so I have seen the world as Trafalmadorians have, but that is beside the point). At least try Galapagos.

 

Do not bypass the deathbed scene (..."this is Franz Kemmerich, he is nineteen and a half years old and he does not want to die, let him not die"...) in All Quiet on the Western Front. I remember that from when I was newly seventeen. The whole world should pass by his bed and the whole world CAN pass by his bed because of Manrique's book. Everyone should have to pass by his bed, I agree with you Paul! (I am not crazy. If you read the book, particularly as a teen, you would agree with Paul and me about Franz.)

 

At the very least, please read the birth scene in The Handmaid's Tale.

 

And don't give up, of all things, the Lysistrata, because someday women are finally going to do it and you won't know who the heck Lysistrata was and why it is worth listening to her and just crossing your legs for awhile.

 

The Grapes of Wrath--Steinbeck, well, it's not my favorite. But I'm really glad I read it because I remember in my travels--the book was read all over the communist bloc until somebody realized that the only thing the Soviets noticed about the ENTIRE BOOK was that poor people had a car (this was of course when like, nobody but Beria had a car). I didn't have to enjoy that book for having read it to enrich my life in ways I never, ever would have predicted.

 

But maybe you will never meet someone from another country who only had access to two books from our culture (I hate pretty much everything by Cormac McCarthy but I knew a woman whose favorite American author was McCarthy--we had the most amazing discussion about the South and Southern gothic and American cultures from that--another reason I am so glad I knew my history!).

 

How will you see love as a diamond with a million facets without Rumi? It's a gorgeous view.

 

The Little Prince... I understand that it is a children's book, but for all of us secularists, it is the book we learn to read in a foreign language (the most translated book after the Bible), and how can a child be expected to go through adulthood without knowing that there are other people out there, looking for someone who can see that it is not a drawing of a hat, it is a boa constrictor which has swallowed an elephant? And moreover, if you can't say that in the language you are learning (Spanish? Russian? French? Mandarin? German?) then what can you say? I mean of any importance, of course.

 

Who can bring together possible worlds theories with theories about sandwiches in a real and engaging way other than Douglas Adams?

 

"May one be pardoned and retain the offense?"

 

Oh, dear, Hamlet's king, you ruined my plans for secret forgiveness through high school and beyond. Why did you have to put such a fine point on it? I just might have asked for pardon while retaining the offense, but now that you point it out...

 

It's not that I think you can't do 10th grade without literature.

 

It's that I think that literature, at least great literature, is an invaluable part of the human experience. Practicing reading difficult texts early prepares the mind to be able to digest those books and the literature of foreign languages later.

 

I could not have read A Fine Balance (which is, by the way, one of the greatest books I've ever read) if I had not ground through The Scarlet Letter and Grapes of Wrath in high school. Not to mention, of course, Love in the Time of Cholera, which kept me warm all night as I stood outside at a train station because I missed my connection.

 

Dear friend, you don't have to love any one book. But giving up literature because you didn't like a censored high school canon is like refusing to step into the ocean because someone threw you headfirst into an over-chlorinated pool at the Y when you were 10. It is like refusing to look at the stars at night because once a bird pooped in your eye. Okay, so they did that to you for four years, and it was awful. I hated 90% of it too.

 

But the Master and Margarita, how will we ever laugh at fascist purges without it? And if we can't laugh at a fascist purge, we're pretty lost since they seem to be happening all the time nowadays.

 

Also, if you can quote poetry and say please and thank you and don't hit, people everywhere will be glad to see you. It is a survival skill that is lost in rich countries, but can get you across Africa or Asia for half the regular price. :)

 

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Literature that stays at the plot-and character-analysis level can be quite dull for some. It doesn't get interesting until you consider the subtext. Such as Nigerian author Chinua Achebe writing Things Fall Apart as a response to the colonialism of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Or the Dominican-born Jean Rhys writing Wide Sargasso Sea as a response to the wife in the attic in Jane Eyre. There are tons of fabulous films that go with so many novels, and even Shakespeare, that reading a novel/play and watching a film version can be quite interesting, particularly in comparing artistic decisions the authors and filmmakers made.

 

Maria

 

Oh, yes, yes. Also, Bridget Jones' diary as a response to Tom Jones. (Both Fieldings being drastically underrated as contributors to the literary canons of their days.)

 

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You aren't alone in detesting fiction - one of my dc does, too. That's actually the dc who is the most well-read, because I insisted on great literature in middle and high school. Why? Because I didn't want to handicap my dc in any way by not providing the best education I could, particularly in areas I knew wouldn't be sought out later. So, yes, there was fiction, all read in the context of the history studies to make it more interesting. There was algebra. There was chemistry. All of the hated subjects have helped my dc become a better student, which has opened doors we didn't expect.

 

Now, does your dc have to read The Grapes of Wrath? No! It's a well-known part of the culture, though, so at least have your dc watch the movie. The House of Seven Gables? No! There are lots of other books, both by Hawthorne and others, which may be better choices for your particular student.

 

Do your dc like movies? Movies are often based on literature or reference things in it, so having read a lot of fiction and poetry helps students see the connections and references in movies that enrich the story. It's fun to jump off from one to the next, and there's no rule that says you have to read the literature first before watching the movie scene it inspired. Watching Pirates of the Caribbean films and see the part where Jack Sparrow is in the doldrums? Read the Rime of the Ancient Mariner afterward and compare the doldrums scenes and the two mariners. How did the Pirates movie adapt the idea? Then watch Rango and compare the desert scene with the Spirit of the West to the other doldrums episodes. How are they similar? Different? What motivates the different characters? Which of the final outcomes is least expected? Why? How would you have changed it if you had written the movie script?

 

What about Westerns? Watch the movie King of Texas with Patrick Stewart, then read and compare it to Shakespeare's King Lear. Or watch the musical West Side Story or the movie Shakespeare in Love, and then compare to the play Romeo and Juliet. Or just watch Veggie Tales cartoons and read the works that inspired them. There are lots of ways to do this, and they don't all have to be drudgery! There's really a lot of good fiction out there!

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I take for granted that some study of literature is required for high school. In my post-college years, I was appalled that Duke University did not require me to take a literature course as part of my degree plan. I placed out of their one-semester freshman English required course.

 

I think that a parent with a strong dislike of a subject, or with just an absence of personal exposure to a subject, owes it to children to provide exposure, even formal study, of just about everything out there in "Knowledge Land". I would not want to cut off any worthwhile avenues to learning. What I consider "not worthwhile" is wholly subjective.

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I guess my question stemmed from the fact that I married a foreigner who despite having read none of the above did just fine in college and is a productive member of society.

 

I, myself, am a slow reader and never developed the ability to visualize while reading....so for me, reading is more like listening to the radio than watching a movie in my mind.  The Grapes of Wrath, The House of the Seven Gable, The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, The Odyssey, The Jungle...ugh....I despised them all.  But I do remember enjoying Of Mice and Men, Lord of the Flies and 1984.  Perhaps I will start there.

 

Thank you all for your responses and "twisting my VIRTUAL arm!!"  LOL!  Now, I only remember being required to read 5-6 books per year...so that should be enough right??

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I guess my question stemmed from the fact that I married a foreigner who despite having read none of the above did just fine in college and is a productive member of society.

 

But did he not read literature in his own language and is familiar with the literary canon of his culture?

I have a hard time imagining school in any country not teaching literature... it won't be the same works as are canon in the US, but that is not the point.

 

I am not disputing that a person can be a productive member of society even without literature, but it would limit the child's horizon severely and would close them off many wonderful experiences (and prospective careers) if they were not exposed to literature.

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I am a "foreign" and I had to read literature for my culture (Spain). I am a math/science person but I had to take literature in high school. I love to read, but not necessarily the “big works of literature†of mine or any other culture. The beauty in homeschooling is that you (or your children) can choose the books to read. You don’t have to choose the “classics,†“the American literature everybody reads,†or “British†or whatever. Your children need to be familiar with literary terms, form opinions on what they read, and be able to defend their point of view. I have not used it but I have seen some literature base program based on movies (I think on this forum).

.

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If you are going to be doing the literature together, then I really do recommend watching a good film version (that is close to the book) first, which would help YOU visualize as you read. :) It would also give you a good feel for the plot and characters, so then you could focus more of your mental energy on the actual reading and language, than also having to wrestle with those aspects WHILE trying to read.

 

The Movies as Literature program could be a very good stepping stone program for you and your student -- learning to look a little deeper into a work is often easier with a movie than with a book.

 

In addition to watching a good movie version before reading a classic, you can also enjoy a lot of film versions of plays (which were *meant* to be watched/listened to). Especially when going into a play by Shakespeare, read a good summary of the play AND of the themes that in the play, so you know what to expect, and can give your attention to figuring out the language rather than who is who and what is happening.

 

Also, make use of good literature guides to help guide you through discussion, if you decide to do the Literature with your student, rather than outsourcing it. Also, some great ideas for transitioning into high school literature in these past threads:

- Where do you start with a high school boy who has never read the classics?

- Which 20 books help prepare for reading the Great Books?

- Great Books question (how does your family read/discuss/do Literature)

- Reading classics: am I expecting too much?

 

 

We need a thread for you--books that we loved and that turned us on to reading. It might not work for your kid, but at least there will be something there to choose from other than The Grapes of Wrath.

 

OMG!! That would be fabulous!!  We would both greatly appreciate that!!

 

And, really, this is about your son, right? Not for your own self-education? (Because I would approach this a little differently for an adult self-learner.) So what we would be working towards is a list of works that would connect with DS first, and you second?

 

If that is the case, if you could give us a little background, it helps us come up with titles that might be closer to being in the ballpark for your homeschool :) :

 

- What past works of literature has your student enjoyed?

- Does DS read for pleasure (or not)?

- And if so, what kinds of things does he enjoy?

- What are your *goals* for Literature? (i.e., explore an interest of DS? exposure to "standard" classics? learn to analyze/write about literature? match to history & culture being studied? chronological study? or…?)

 

 

Just to get you started, without knowing any specifics about your student or your goals, Below are a few ideas. BEST of luck in your family's homeschooling high school Literature adventures! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

short stories, easier to read, engaging:

- Sherlock Holmes short story mysteries (Doyle)

- "The Monkey's Paw" (Jacobs)

- "The Lady or the Tiger" (Stockton)

- "The Most Dangerous Game" (Connell)

- "The Ransom of Red Chief" (Henry)

- "The Open Window" (Saki)

- short stories by PG Wodehouse

 

short works, easy to read, action-oriented:

- Greek myths -- very frequently alluded to in Western culture

- Call of the Wild, or, White Fang (London)

- Old Man and the Sea (Hemingway)

- The Red Badge of Courage (Crane)

- Animal Farm (Orwell)

 

novels, easy to read:

- Lord of the Flies (Golding)

- To Kill a Mockingbird (Lee)

- Watership Down (Adams) -- epic quest; some allusions to The Odyssey & The Aeneid, and to several forms of government

 

older language, but more adventure-based:

- Beowulf -- try a prose adaptation if you can't get past the Medieval poetry structure

- Adventures of Tom Sawyer

- Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (Twain) -- and, read The Day They Came to Arrest the Book alongside it

- Treasure Island (Stevenson)

- Ivanhoe (Scott)

- Oliver Twist (Dickens)

- Lord of the Rings trilogy (Tolkien)

 

older language, but prompts discussion:

- The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (Stevenson)

- The Invisible Man (Wells)

- The Picture of Dorian Gray (Wilde)

 

middle school level works worth reading/discussing:

- Tuck Everlasting (Babbit)

- The Giver (Lowry) -- a dystopia

 

"second tier" works worth reading/discussing:

- Hunger Games (Collins) -- a dystopia

- House of Stairs (Sleator) -- a dystopia

- Ben Hur (Wallace) -- historical fiction

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Consider reading this first:

 

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/01/does-great-literature-make-us-better/

 

http://ideas.time.com/2013/06/03/why-we-should-read-literature/

 

Stories are ways of people making sense in a complex world.

 

I hate Hemingway's works (and am not a big fan of his public persona, either) but I love Fitzgerald. Hated Ethan Frome, tolerated the Crucible. Hated, hated, hated The Scarlet Letter, but when I read Moby Dick in my 30s I thought--holy crap--this guy is funny. This is actually a funny book about really modern themes. It's pretty meta, actually, and the whaling stuff is also fairly amusing once you get into it, provided you have a dark sense of humor.

 

I am not a fan of Dickens, but I love Salman Rushdie. Rushdie is like, the Dickens of this generation. Or more.He is mo betta than Dickens.

 

You really can't miss the carnival days of Midnight's Children.

 

And frankly, if for no other reason than to understand the relationship between East and West as it's playing out RIGHT NOW across Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and many parts of Asia, how can you miss Pamuk's White Castle? But if you refuse to read the White Castle, because you don't like fiction (whatever that means... it's not really fiction, by the way, they are histories with all the boring in between parts taken out and the dreams included), well, at least My Name Is Red.

 

There are some things that cannot be expressed in nonfiction. Those are expressed through art and hugs.

 

Don't over-analyze--I don't remember anything we analyzed--but please, don't forgo the fart scenes in Canterbury Tales, when he climbs up a ladder and gets farted on. That made high school for me. I had some hope in the future when we got to that part.

 

Please do not give up the porn scene in Slaughterhouse Five. Okay, so perhaps you don't want to hear about what happens when your soul goes outside of time because you can't fall in love on Earth because war broke your insides (my soul has so I have seen the world as Trafalmadorians have, but that is beside the point). At least try Galapagos.

 

Do not bypass the deathbed scene (..."this is Franz Kemmerich, he is nineteen and a half years old and he does not want to die, let him not die"...) in All Quiet on the Western Front. I remember that from when I was newly seventeen. The whole world should pass by his bed and the whole world CAN pass by his bed because of Manrique's book. Everyone should have to pass by his bed, I agree with you Paul! (I am not crazy. If you read the book, particularly as a teen, you would agree with Paul and me about Franz.)

 

At the very least, please read the birth scene in The Handmaid's Tale.

 

And don't give up, of all things, the Lysistrata, because someday women are finally going to do it and you won't know who the heck Lysistrata was and why it is worth listening to her and just crossing your legs for awhile.

 

The Grapes of Wrath--Steinbeck, well, it's not my favorite. But I'm really glad I read it because I remember in my travels--the book was read all over the communist bloc until somebody realized that the only thing the Soviets noticed about the ENTIRE BOOK was that poor people had a car (this was of course when like, nobody but Beria had a car). I didn't have to enjoy that book for having read it to enrich my life in ways I never, ever would have predicted.

 

But maybe you will never meet someone from another country who only had access to two books from our culture (I hate pretty much everything by Cormac McCarthy but I knew a woman whose favorite American author was McCarthy--we had the most amazing discussion about the South and Southern gothic and American cultures from that--another reason I am so glad I knew my history!).

 

How will you see love as a diamond with a million facets without Rumi? It's a gorgeous view.

 

The Little Prince... I understand that it is a children's book, but for all of us secularists, it is the book we learn to read in a foreign language (the most translated book after the Bible), and how can a child be expected to go through adulthood without knowing that there are other people out there, looking for someone who can see that it is not a drawing of a hat, it is a boa constrictor which has swallowed an elephant? And moreover, if you can't say that in the language you are learning (Spanish? Russian? French? Mandarin? German?) then what can you say? I mean of any importance, of course.

 

Who can bring together possible worlds theories with theories about sandwiches in a real and engaging way other than Douglas Adams?

 

"May one be pardoned and retain the offense?"

 

Oh, dear, Hamlet's king, you ruined my plans for secret forgiveness through high school and beyond. Why did you have to put such a fine point on it? I just might have asked for pardon while retaining the offense, but now that you point it out...

 

It's not that I think you can't do 10th grade without literature.

 

It's that I think that literature, at least great literature, is an invaluable part of the human experience. Practicing reading difficult texts early prepares the mind to be able to digest those books and the literature of foreign languages later.

 

I could not have read A Fine Balance (which is, by the way, one of the greatest books I've ever read) if I had not ground through The Scarlet Letter and Grapes of Wrath in high school. Not to mention, of course, Love in the Time of Cholera, which kept me warm all night as I stood outside at a train station because I missed my connection.

 

Dear friend, you don't have to love any one book. But giving up literature because you didn't like a censored high school canon is like refusing to step into the ocean because someone threw you headfirst into an over-chlorinated pool at the Y when you were 10. It is like refusing to look at the stars at night because once a bird pooped in your eye. Okay, so they did that to you for four years, and it was awful. I hated 90% of it too.

 

But the Master and Margarita, how will we ever laugh at fascist purges without it? And if we can't laugh at a fascist purge, we're pretty lost since they seem to be happening all the time nowadays.

 

Also, if you can quote poetry and say please and thank you and don't hit, people everywhere will be glad to see you. It is a survival skill that is lost in rich countries, but can get you across Africa or Asia for half the regular price. :)

 

Oh heck yes!  :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :cheers2:

 

Melville is a hoot and currently The Master and Margarita is making my head spin when I am not snorting and chuckling.

 

Good literature expands your mind and your life and as a dear WTM boardie reminded me, it's how you understand the punch line in so many of life's jokes.

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