My kindergartener doesn't grasp numbers.

[Desert Strawberry]

At all. He can count to 100, but has no real understanding of what the numbers mean. I'm trying to work with him on tens, but he clearly doesn't grasp the concept. 

 

He had the same experience with basic addition. He could kind of say the answers back to me, but had no real understanding.

 

What now? Do we continue introducing various concepts, hoping eventually something clicks? Or should I just let go of math and let him work on learning to read-which he is really interested in and understanding well?  Maybe he needs to do one thing at a time?

 

 

[wapiti]

I would try two things:  first I'd make sure he can see - vision checkup.  Second, check out this current thread from the LC board, particularly with regard to the finger method discussed by geodob and the Ronit Bird program discussed by others.

[nature girl]

I'd suggest Googling "one to one correspondence," to find fun activities that will help to teach it. Until he understands that basic concept, anything math-wise that you try to teach will be meaningless. As you've realized, counting is really just a chant without the understanding of what those numbers mean.

 

You can start very simply with teaching him 1-to-1 correspondence with a group of up to 5 items, and move on from there...If you've already done these types of activities, or work on them for awhile and he's still not understanding, then I'd start to suspect there may be some sort of visuospatial dyscalculia keeping him from processing the idea. But he's still young, so I wouldn't worry all that much yet. (I also wouldn't put it off, though. This is a basic skill that should be mastered by K.)

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird.  The ebooks are under $10.  Start with the dots book.  I spent MONTHS going through it with ds.  Actually we're still not done.  It's BRILLIANT.  

 

You've had other posts where you're worried about him, asking if such and such was ok.  I got my ds eval'd as soon as he turned 6.  Technically the psych could have been very helpful even at 5.  Some of these things you're concerned about can be caught early by someone who will run the tests.  I guess I could have bought into the "he's a late bloomer" crap, but reality is he's dyslexic, probably dyscalculic, and just flat needs a lot of intervention.  

[PeterPan]

He couldn't understand geodob's finger counting before we did the RB Dots book.  Do dots first.  It's sort of Barton for math, breaking everything down into teeny tiny steps and making sure they really get it.  

 

And yes, issues with number sense are the crux of dyscalculia.  So what you've got is all these little red flags you're seeing and you're trying to figure out what is a developmental delay, what is a disability, when to intervene.  For us, none of it was delay, only disability.  I'm happy if it was a delay for someone else, but I'm just saying hiding my head in the sand wouldn't have helped and waiting doesn't change it.  It might come spontaneously later, when the kid has had so many life experience that it finally gels, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a disability or that it couldn't have been intervened on earlier.  It just means some things are confounding on how to intervene on.

[Desert Strawberry]

He has one-to-one correspondence. 

 

His visual-spatial processing is excellent.

 

He has been evaluated, though he is a bit older now, New things could come out. 

 

Now that I think about it, that might be the way to go. Maybe we need more visual stimuli.

[desertflower]

I agree with OhElizabeth.  I'm not expert.  But I have seen the education unboxed videos on the internet and thought that they were great at explaining the basic 10 blocks to kids.  If you have a little time, perhaps do that for a month or so? 

 

I know someone who may have LD and I suggested to the grandparents to try this.  They have seen major improvements.  And it's only been one month.  Although, I will say that he still didn't pass his test.  But not to get into too many details, he has made some major improvements.

 

Otherwise, I agree with OhElizabeth.

 

Good luck. 

[desertflower]

OhElizabeth,

 

Sorry to hijack this thread OP, but I was looking at RB's dot book and it looks like I have to have an ipad to download it.  I don't have an ipad.  Is there anything else out there that's equivalent?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Desert Strawberry]

I loathe C-rods. Is there some method that doesn't require them?

 

 

We aren't doing a strong Kindergarten. We are just playing. We have reasons for holding off.

 

I'm not really looking for an intensive math program, just some suggestions of games, methods, techniques that will help me help him. The guidelines I'm trying are all WAY over his head. 

 

The Dots book does look like the kind of thing I'm looking for. I don't necessarily think he's dyscalculic. I think I just need to present concepts in a different way. 

[Clear Creek]

I know you said you loathe c-rods, but my middle child was like that at that age, and was still like that at the beginning of 3rd grade. She didn't grasp numbers (besides one-to-one correspendence) until we started MUS. Somehow seeing that the three rod and the four rod set end-to-end was the same length as the seven rod made things click. I am a very linear thinker, so I understood numbers in a sequential manner and kept trying to teach her math in a logical, sequential manner because that is all I knew. It didn't work with my visual non-sequential learner, though. MUS presents numbers and addition in a way that visual, kinesthetic, non-sequential learners can understand.

 

I understand you don't want an entire program (I didn't teach math formally at all in kindergarten with any of my kids), but I would recommend giving in on the c-rods and either springing for the MUS Alpha video for yourself or watch the education unboxed videos. Either one will give you new ways of presenting the concepts.

[Tanikit]

If you say he has one-to-one correspondence then I am not sure I understand what you mean by not understanding numbers. Numbers are quantity - so if he can see the digit 5 and show you 5 items then he understands.  He would also need to be able to count a certain number of items and find the digit that corresponds to that number. And then he would need to be able to match digits to various groupings of items to show that he understands the difference between 3 and 5 for example and can compare groups.

 

Understanding of numbers is usually shown using manipulatives. If you can add 2+3 and say 5, but you cannot show what this means with manipulatives then you do not understand it. You must start with smaller numbers - if there is understanding with smaller numbers then you move on to the teens and the 20s. It is a jump to move to bigger numbers and many children do have some difficulty with the teens and the concept of 10s and units. Again - use manipulatives with the teens - show that 10 small blocks can form a chain of 10 (using base 10 blocks) and that 2 lots of this is 20. Again start small and make sure you aren't jumping to 100 without covering the teens first.

 

From what you have said, I have a feeling that you are moving too quickly and some basic concept has not been covered - if you back up you may find you can move forward rather rapidly when you fill the gap.

[PeterPan]

OhElizabeth,

 

Sorry to hijack this thread OP, but I was looking at RB's dot book and it looks like I have to have an ipad to download it.  I don't have an ipad.  Is there anything else out there that's equivalent?

 

Thanks.

If you have iTunes on your computer, can you buy books through it?  I'm on a mac.  Obviously it's convenient to put the ibook on your computer, but as long as there's an iTunes and iBooks for your computer (which there is for windows, right?), then you can still get the ebook and read it.  It's definitely worth the effort.  And when you can treat yourself to an ipad or other tablet, that will be good too.  :)

[PeterPan]

I loathe C-rods. Is there some method that doesn't require them?

 

 

We aren't doing a strong Kindergarten. We are just playing. We have reasons for holding off.

 

I'm not really looking for an intensive math program, just some suggestions of games, methods, techniques that will help me help him. The guidelines I'm trying are all WAY over his head. 

 

The Dots book does look like the kind of thing I'm looking for. I don't necessarily think he's dyscalculic. I think I just need to present concepts in a different way. 

Yes, the dots book is entirely dots, no c-rods.  I've corresponded a bit with RB, and she said really from her perspective as a tutor it doesn't matter whether the cause is dyslexia or dyscalculia or... the answer still is the same, to get into the concepts and really get the understanding.  Dots has very small steps and has been good for us.  He's able to carry the concepts over to the soroban finger counting.  You might find yourself less averse to c-rods when you get done with the dots book if dots turns out to be a really good fit.  If you still don't want it, you still have plenty of other options.

 

At the end of dots she transfers the concepts over to beads, which of course can then become the beads on a slavonic abacus.  The beads, when flattened or viewed from the top are the same as c-rods, so they're really interchangeable in that sense.  Her bridging technique in C-Rods is just like what RS does with the slavonic/RS abacus.  RB just spends a lot more time, making sure all the understanding is there.  She spends chapters doing what RS covers in 3 lessons.  Seriously.  And it's such small, incremental steps you never feel bored.

 

And yes, it will be games, exploring together, very gentle.  We really enjoy it.

[PeterPan]

The Dots book comes first because it builds number sense.  Until they have three-ness, four-ness, etc. and have the numbers mean something, they can't work with them.  They do subitizing, number sense, evens/odds, complements (things that make 10, 5, 6,7, 8, 9), but no written.  Then in the C-Rods book it gets codified and eventually transferred over to written notation.  But Dots is all about number sense.  If that's what's missing (having 5 *mean* something), that's where ds was, and for that Dots is the place to start.

[PeterPan]

Desertflower--  https://www.apple.com/ibooks/

[JanetC]

I'd check your expectations.  I wouldn't think it is age appropriate to have a kindergartener have a solid number sense for numbers up to 100.  Pick smaller numbers, and let him use his fingers to add and subtract until the concepts start to stick.

 

The book "Math Their Way" has a lot of hands-on, conceptual math activities. 

A couple simple math devices like counting cubes and a number line go a long way.

 

 

[Desert Strawberry]

I think y'all nailed it. We are skipping way too far ahead. I will back us up and do some manipulative-based number work with him. He's an eager learner. I'm grappling with what to teach him. Obviously, big numbers are too big of a jump. I had a niggling feeling that he should add and subtract little numbers first, but I wasn't really seeing how to do that. 

I think we might try some MEP Reception. I don't adore MEP, but it seems like it would be a good introduction for him. 

 

I have a bunch of other stuff that I can print out and play with him. He might like that. I'm going to sort through my flash drive and see what might be useful. 

Thanks!
 

 

[Crimson Wife]

My MIL is a retired schoolteacher and she gave me a set of Digi-Blocks that I love as a manipulative for place value teaching. http://store.digiblock.com/store/products/power-base-10-math-blocks-of-100/

 

I have my primary grade students practice composing and decomposing tens and hundreds with the Digi-Blocks until they understand the concept of place value.

[73349]

Count all your snacks. How many cookies/strawberries/grapes/peas? Food is a high-interest topic, and very hands-on.

 

I think unit blocks rather than C-rods might be a good manipulative here, too, if you want to get to 100. Or if you have C-rods, use only ones and tens for a while.

[desertflower]

I think y'all nailed it. We are skipping way too far ahead. I will back us up and do some manipulative-based number work with him. He's an eager learner. I'm grappling with what to teach him. Obviously, big numbers are too big of a jump. I had a niggling feeling that he should add and subtract little numbers first, but I wasn't really seeing how to do that. 

 

I think we might try some MEP Reception. I don't adore MEP, but it seems like it would be a good introduction for him. 

 

I have a bunch of other stuff that I can print out and play with him. He might like that. I'm going to sort through my flash drive and see what might be useful. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

I don't know strawberrymama.  Just fyi, I know someone in kindergarten in a charter school and he has to count to 100 and know how to do simple additions so far.  He's almost 6. 

 

I'm not crazy about the regular c-rods either.  I personally like math-u-see blocks better because they are segmented.  There are c-rods out there that are segmented as well.  I didn't know that until after I started using MUS blocks.  :P

[desertflower]

If you have iTunes on your computer, can you buy books through it?  I'm on a mac.  Obviously it's convenient to put the ibook on your computer, but as long as there's an iTunes and iBooks for your computer (which there is for windows, right?), then you can still get the ebook and read it.  It's definitely worth the effort.  And when you can treat yourself to an ipad or other tablet, that will be good too.   :)

 

Thank you OhElizabeth.  I'll have my dh look into it.  I'm not tech savy. 

 

[ravinlunachick]

Try looking into the AL abacus as used in RightStart Math. Even if you don't use the curriculum, the abacus is unique and provides an excellent way to visualize quantities, as well as a useful alternative to C-rods.

 

Here is a video of a webinar regarding the AL Abacus.

http://youtu.be/0_mxSZ_dGmw

 

Eta: You can buy the abacus as an app for $1.99. I don't think it is a substitute for the actual abacus, but it might give you a quick and easy way to try it out.

[EmseB]

I'm working with my k'er on 10s now, and he can count by 10's and see it on the 100's chart, but I don't think he really understands it yet.  We just review a lot.  Kind of like counting by ones, I think it just takes some time to click.  I say that because we were working on on "one more" and one day, even though he had been doing it for quite awhile, he said, "Oh, I get it!!  The answer is 25 because that is one more than 24!".  I laughed because he'd been coming up with the right answer for at least a few weeks at that point, but it seems that just then the actual comprehension of it clicked on for him.

[Ausmumof3]

My k child can recite to 100 but only has meaningful understanding to around ten.

 

The Singapore activity for place value is getting a group of say sixteen items then placing ten of them in side a circle or egg carton with 10 holes. You now have one ten then you count the ones. You draw a table with the headings tens then ones. Under tens you write 1 then under ones you write 6. Now you have the number 16.

 

But if they are not ready for place value all the methods in the world won't really help.

[Desert Strawberry]

I don't know strawberrymama.  Just fyi, I know someone in kindergarten in a charter school and he has to count to 100 and know how to do simple additions so far.  He's almost 6. 

:p

 

Yes. He does all of that. It's place value that is tripping him up.

I'm working with my k'er on 10s now, and he can count by 10's and see it on the 100's chart, but I don't think he really understands it yet.  We just review a lot.  Kind of like counting by ones, I think it just takes some time to click.  I say that because we were working on on "one more" and one day, even though he had been doing it for quite awhile, he said, "Oh, I get it!!  The answer is 25 because that is one more than 24!".  I laughed because he'd been coming up with the right answer for at least a few weeks at that point, but it seems that just then the actual comprehension of it clicked on for him.

 

Exactly. He can review the numbers, but it's just rote memorization. He can't do anything with numbers over twelve or fifteen. Now I recall that at this age, it's normal to only be able to with quantities that they can visually recognize. 20 and larger, even with manipulatives, is just too much for him. 

One more he did ok with, one less, he clearly didn't follow the meaning of the words. But he can add and subtract if I rephrase it that way. 

My k child can recite to 100 but only has meaningful understanding to around 10.

 

But if they are not ready for place value all the methods in the world won't really help.

Exactly. I think this where he is now. We will come back to it later. The Singapore-style methods worked with my older kids, but not this one, yet.

 

I would like to give one piece of advice: don't worry about "falling behind." Just build understanding one step at a time.

 

My ds is now homeschooling high school, and I wish, I wish, I wish that I would have just worked with him where he was at instead of pushing, or changing curriculum, so that he'd "stay on track." What a waste of stress and tears. He grasped everything eventually (when his brain was ready,) but it was never according to when "they" said a child "should" be doing/knowing such and such.

 

Take the time to build a strong foundation of understanding.

Yeah. I'm not worried. He just loves to do school, and he's hitting a wall. I don't want him to be frustrated when he is trying so hard to understand. He's my third. My atypical first child taught me that the numbers on the book don't mean much to a child's learning.

[desertflower]

I would like to give one piece of advice: don't worry about "falling behind." Just build understanding one step at a time.

 

My ds is now homeschooling high school, and I wish, I wish, I wish that I would have just worked with him where he was at instead of pushing, or changing curriculum, so that he'd "stay on track." What a waste of stress and tears. He grasped everything eventually (when his brain was ready,) but it was never according to when "they" said a child "should" be doing/knowing such and such.

 

Take the time to build a strong foundation of understanding.

 

Yes, I agree with this.  Sorry if my reply didn't convey it.  I believe in a strong foundation as well.  I was just surprised to learn that kindergarteners were learning simple addition half way through the year, I guess. 

 

Good luck.

[PeterPan]

Try looking into the AL abacus as used in RightStart Math. Even if you don't use the curriculum, the abacus is unique and provides an excellent way to visualize quantities, as well as a useful alternative to C-rods. Here is a video of a webinar regarding the AL Abacus. http://youtu.be/0_mxSZ_dGmw Eta: You can buy the abacus as an app for $1.99. I don't think it is a substitute for the actual abacus, but it might give you a quick and easy way to try it out.

Just for your trivia, the RS abacus is a slavonic abacus.  Ronit Bird works up to it by the end of her Dots ebook.  RS uses dots, fingers, tallies, and beads interchangeably, so working in one context segues to the next.  It's really not about one manipulative being *superior* to another.  They all relate and you can harness that.  Some kids just need a lot more initial steps before they're ready to go into some manipulatives and some kids skip those steps and go right to the more complex manipulative without a problem.  My dd could go right into the RS abacus without a problem, but my ds didn't have any number sense, no sense of three-ness, no sense of relationships.  An abacus is too big a leap for him. For him I had to go way back, all the way back to the beginning.  And he has a gifted IQ.  Whew!

[PeterPan]

Yes, I agree with this.  Sorry if my reply didn't convey it.  I believe in a strong foundation as well.  I was just surprised to learn that kindergarteners were learning simple addition half way through the year, I guess. 

 

Good luck.

If that blows your mind, you won't even believe what the new RS2 A (2nd edition) has them doing in K5 to keep up with common core.  They're doing addition AND subtraction with multiple digits and mental, more complex geometry, introducing skip counting and division.  

 

Things have totally changed.  The ps now screens and kids who fail the testing the first few days of school are immediately put in intervention classes.  We're doing our kids no favors if we hold onto outdated ideas of what's being required.  Things have really, really changed.  I'm not saying it's for the best or developmentally appropriate or anything else, just saying what I'm seeing.  

[desertflower]

If that blows your mind, you won't even believe what the new RS2 A (2nd edition) has them doing in K5 to keep up with common core. They're doing addition AND subtraction with multiple digits and mental, more complex geometry, introducing skip counting and division.

 

Things have totally changed. The ps now screens and kids who fail the testing the first few days of school are immediately put in intervention classes. We're doing our kids no favors if we hold onto outdated ideas of what's being required. Things have really, really changed. I'm not saying it's for the best or developmentally appropriate or anything else, just saying what I'm seeing.

Wow! Makes me feel like Singapore math for my ds is not enough. Lol

[hornblower]

I think I would do c-rods & food, like raisins and chocolate chips, wine gums etc.  Count them (& eat them!) & just lay out the rule - every time we hit 10, we put them in row & start another row.

you can also make cookies & instead of putting the raisins or chips in the batter, arrange them evenly on top. So for ex, make cookies with 5 chips on them.
How many chips in this cookie? 5
Now add another cookie? How many chips now? & so on. You can get counting to large numbers & also eventually skip counting like that.

Also pennies. Making 10 piles of 10 & filling those plastic rolls that take a 100 pennies is something my kids enjoyed a lot.

my kids also enjoyed counting dry beans. There's something about their slippery warm gem like quality that was really appealing.

& make puzzles where you arrange candies etc on plates for you & ds (or maybe ds & his siblings) and say: "Is this fair? Is everyone getting the same? Let's check!"  Make one plate have way more & then figure out how to rearrange it so everyone gets the same. Fairness is a concept most kids really respond to.

[Rosie_0801]

My dd still has these kinds of problems. It seems to be a developmental thing with her, but she's making progress in other areas using CSMP. It might be worth a look if you haven't.

[Hunter]

Just because international competition fears have changed what is expected, doesn't mean that CHILDREN have changed. 

 

Dyscalculia in Kindergarten? NO NO NO! That is as ridiculous as diagnosing a kindergartner with impotence. Forgive my crudeness!

 

There is NOTHING wrong with the old math expectations. There is also NOTHING wrong with gifted children being given more. But normal children have a human right not to be overwhelmed with expectations based on future employment fears, that are straining to their immature minds. That is child labor.

 

Is the following outdated? Maybe. But it's realistic.

 

****************Year 0************************

 

Teach tally marks instead of figures. 1-5

 

 

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 107-110

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey pg.11-15

http://books.google.com/books?id=MQMAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Number+Primer+1909+by +M.+A.+Bailey&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book New Jersey Edition 1913 pg. 7-12

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=editions: 7KUrtxiHhpAC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 1 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnUoAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

 

 

*************************** Year 1***************

 

** First half **
Teach tally marks instead of figures. 1-10

 

 

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 107-114

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

Number Primer 1909 by M. A. Bailey pg. 11-19

http://books.google.com/books?id=MQMAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Number+Primer+1909+by +M.+A.+Bailey&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book 1913 New Jersey Edition pg. 7-12

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Hamilton’s+Arithmetics+First

+Book+1913+New+Jersey+Edition&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 1 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnUoAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks

 

** Second half **
Start teaching slanted script figures and words. 1-10

 

 

A Primary Arithmetic and Teacher’s Manual 1875 by Edward Olney pg. 1-12

https://archive.org/details/aprimaryarithme03olnegoog

Work and Play 1912 by George Wentworth pg. 7-24

https://archive.org/details/workandplaywith00smitgoog 

Progressive Course in English Teachers’ Manual by E. J. Hoenshel pg. 13-14

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zn8SAAAAIAAJ&dq=Progressive+Course+in

+English +Teacher’s+Manual&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book 1913 New Jersey Edition pg. 7-12

http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Hamilton’s+Arithmetics+First

+Book+1913+New+Jersey+Edition&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 1 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnUoAAAAYAAJ&source=gbs_book_similarbooks 

 

***************************** Year 2**********************

** First half ** 0-20
Hamilton’s Arithmetics First Book 1913 New Jersey Edition pg. 7-30 http://books.google.com/books?id=KgcAAAAAYAAJ&dq=Hamilton’s+Arithmetics+First +Book+1913+New+Jersey+Edition&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 2 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=L8IBAAAAYAAJ&oe=UTF-8

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 115-124

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

 

 

** Second half ** 0-100

School Arithmetics Book 1 1920 by George Wentworth ch. 1

http://books.google.com/books?

id=2W0XAAAAYAAJ&dq=editions:_hezQ0ym14sC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The Prang Primary Course in Art Education Part 2 1892 by Mary Dana Hicks

http://books.google.com/books?id=L8IBAAAAYAAJ&oe=UTF-8

Eclectic Manual of Methods 1885 pg. 115-124

https://archive.org/details/eclecticmanualof00stew

Ray’s New Primary Arithmetic 1877 pg. 5-40

http://www.ronpaulcurriculum.com/public/department121.cfm 

 

 

[letsplaymath]

You might also look into some non-curriculum math. My two go-to sites for preschool and early-elementary are:

• Moebius Noodles (activity ideas for exploring advanced concepts at a kid's level)
• Talking Math with Your Kids (tips for using everyday conversation to encourage mathematical thinking)

[Rosie_0801]

Has anyone compared Ronit Bird with CSMP?

[desertflower]

No sorry Rosie.

[KrissiK]

Just relax. My second dd is a different kind of learner than my other kids. It took her forever to learn her colors. We thought she had vision problems, was color blind, LD, etc. She's none of the above. She knows her colors just fine now. I don't really know how she learned them. All my other kids took to A Beka phonics like ducks to water. This little one.... not so much. So, I just do my own phonics with her, and she's doing much better. One thing I don't do is pressure her. And we do lots and lots of review. The ages of 4-6 are so crazy in a child's academic development, that unless you sense that there's something really abnormal and wrong, I would just relax, take it easy but keep on working at things that are age appropriate.