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sharing an article: teacher blog about disruptive child


wapiti
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I can't like this article enough. I am married to that teacher. His heart is broken daily over those children. He sits with those crying parents who are desperately trying to do their best for those children. In my teaching time before children I had one of those children in my classroom. I couldn't tell anyone that this precious little one had witnessed one parent's murder at the hands of the other.

 

No one knows what goes on behind closed doors. The knowledge teachers carry in their hearts is at times overwhelming. 

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I cried when I read it. 

 

I cried as well, but largely because there are no good answers.  

 

When Peter was in school he was THAT kid; he wasn't hitting, but he was grabbing toys, interrupting, crying a lot and taking much more than his share of the teacher's time.  It was so hard because I knew he wasn't doing any of those things on purpose, and from years of experience with him, I was pretty sure that any discipline (in the teaching, training, consequences sense) that the teachers tried with him would be completely ineffectual.

 

OTOH, I remember being a student in classes with THAT kid and it was hard and unfair and often physically or emotionally painful.  So the teacher can't talk about what is causing the problems or what she is doing to try to mitigate them...so what?  Even if she could share that information, it still would be of little comfort to the parents of the rest of the class that is being short changed.  If a child has frequent outburst of swearing and throwing furniture, which traumatize his classmates and cause some of them to have reoccurring nightmares, does it really matter that he is doing it because his parents are going through a rough divorce?  Certainly not to the other kids...especially because the information that would help them feel sympathy for him is not shared with them either.

 

Peter being in school was not a good situation for him or us or the teachers or the other students.  We are very fortunate in that we were able to bring him home; I know that many people do not have that option.  And yet, even knowing how hard of a situation it is for THAT kid and his parents and the teachers, I would still be upset if one of my neurotypical kids was in a class that was frequently interrupted and upset by one troubled student.

 

Wendy

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You know, this is the special needs board, and I do not appreciate your comment. 

 

Sorry you do not like how things are done in your school district. 

 

There is an ED classroom at a school in our school district. 

 

My son is in a regular K classroom for most of the day, and he has a one-to-one aide.  It is the least restrictive environment for him.  He needs aide support. 

 

He is not bothering anyone, the aide can take him for a break as needed. 

 

I think you are extrapolating a huge amount from a bad situation in your district, I don't think you need to re-write special education law over it. 

 

But really -- I don't see what your post has to do with the blog that was linked.  I do not appreciate hearing about how in your day kids were not allowed to stab others with pencils, but now it is okay.  Though partly -- it is not okay in my school district either, and there is an ED classroom.  But they are trying their best to get those kids back into regular classrooms as it is appropriate for them. 

 

I can see why you are appalled by that situation -- just not why you would post that to a message board sub-forum titled "the learning challenges board." In response to a lovely blog post. 

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I think you are extrapolating a huge amount from a bad situation in your district, I don't think you need to re-write special education law over it. 

 

 

Lecka, this is what she does. If you ever do a google search for this forum with the keywords "heigh-ho" and "inclusion" you will get a huge list of hits. Google showed me 16 pages of results that are pretty much all centered around how the riff raff have made life difficult for her gifted children. Here's a shortcut: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awelltrainedmind.com+%22heigh-ho%22+%22mainstream%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb#rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&q=site:welltrainedmind.com+%22heigh-ho%22+%22inclusion%22

 

Don't take it personally.

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Well -- to a great extent, the reason I don't homeschool is b/c of the presence of teachers like this in my kids' school and pre-school. 

 

I also don't homeschool b/c of some things I am aware of in our local homeschooling community that I do not care for at all.  Mostly -- I have seen some cliques and rude behavior at our public library when I happen to be there and there are homeschoolers there, not towards me, but I have observed it.  But those are the people who are attending the homeschooling days put on by the library.  There are also a lot of people who do not believe that girls need to be educated b/c they are going to run their household and care for their children.  So -- that is a small, small part of the reason I don't homeschool. 

 

I know there are plenty of homeschoolers doing things right, I have met some through soccer and at the park (but not at times we have randomly been at the park on a "park day"). 

 

Is it so hard to imagine that there are teachers and schools doing things in a good way wrt inclusion and providing sufficient resources? Can we not just say it sounds like this teacher is doing things in a great way? 

 

I don't assume that all homeschoolers are doing things in some certain bad ways, either, or that they are letting huge balls drop, or doing things that could predictably have turned out to be stupid. 

 

I am sorry your son was assaulted, too, Heathermomster.  But I don't think that means the teacher who wrote the blog would have let that happen in her classroom. 

 

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Well -- to a great extent, the reason I don't homeschool is b/c of the presence of teachers like this in my kids' school and pre-school. 

 

So, sorry for all the people who think public school is so horrible and have to pull their kids out.  I understand it.  But -- there is no reason to be against a blog post where the teacher IS doing things in a good way. 

 

I don't come here and talk trash about some of the homeschoolers I see in my local community, I understand that they are not representative, or if they are, they *shouldn't* be.

 

I think more like -- start your own thread if you want to talk about how inclusive education doesn't work or bad situations you have seen where it was not done properly. 

 

Let there be a thread where people are happy about this teacher's commitment to inclusive education. 

 

Or maybe I am wrong, and it was posted with an intent to have people come and talk about how that teacher is naĂƒÂ¯ve or whatever.  I did not start it. 

 

We have inclusive education, and there is enough money, there are enough aides, etc.  There are not kids getting beaten up in class, there are not kids hitting kids with no consequence.  It seems like it is on par, to me, to if I wanted to come and talk, at random, about personal anecdotes I have about really inappropriate situations related to "homeschooling" (they mostly involve people who are just going along with the crowd at church and do not have much interest in the "school" part of homeschooling, so I do not even believe they are "homeschooling.").  I could come and say "this is why I don't homeschool" and things like that.  But -- I don't, I don't think it is called for.  Even though -- it is a factor, b/c those would possibly be people we socialized with as homeschoolers in a small town, and it is not an influence I want on my daughter or my sons. (They do not believe in educating girls, a lot of the time, they just need to be able to manage the family home and take care of the children, etc.) 

 

Real question.  Not snark.

 

What level of violence and injury do you think is an acceptable price to pay for inclusiveness?

 

From the article:

"The one who is always hitting, shoving, pinching, scratching, maybe even biting other children."

She talks about throwing blocks and furniture and punching leading to black eyes.

 

Above you said about your son, "He is not bothering anyone, the aide can take him for a break as needed. "

It doesn't sound like that article is written about kids like your son who aren't bothering anyone.  It sounds like that teacher is fielding questions from parents whose kids are profoundly bothered and hit, shoved, scratched, bitten, punched, and hit with blocks and furniture.

 

Which leads me back to me sincere question:

What level of violence and injury do you think is an acceptable price to pay for inclusiveness?

 

Wendy

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Well -- to a great extent, the reason I don't homeschool is b/c of the presence of teachers like this in my kids' school and pre-school.

 

I also don't homeschool b/c of some things I am aware of in our local homeschooling community that I do not care for at all. Mostly -- I have seen some cliques and rude behavior at our public library when I happen to be there and there are homeschoolers there, not towards me, but I have observed it. But those are the people who are attending the homeschooling days put on by the library. There are also a lot of people who do not believe that girls need to be educated b/c they are going to run their household and care for their children. So -- that is a small, small part of the reason I don't homeschool.

 

I know there are plenty of homeschoolers doing things right, I have met some through soccer and at the park (but not at times we have randomly been at the park on a "park day").

 

Is it so hard to imagine that there are teachers and schools doing things in a good way wrt inclusion and providing sufficient resources? Can we not just say it sounds like this teacher is doing things in a great way?

 

I don't assume that all homeschoolers are doing things in some certain bad ways, either, or that they are letting huge balls drop, or doing things that could predictably have turned out to be stupid.

 

I am sorry your son was assaulted, too, Heathermomster. But I don't think that means the teacher who wrote the blog would have let that happen in her classroom.

 

Don't be sorry. The teacher didn't mean for my son's face to get bashed in either. The article upsets me too. But at the end of day, we all do what is best for our kiddos.

 

Wendy does raise an interesting question though. How much abuse should normal students be expected to take? Overall, I see SN children as far more vulnerable. How much abuse should they take before they are pulled?

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I went back and edited, I thought I was a little harsh.

 

But to answer -- some pushing and pinching is okay with me, for Kindergarten.  There are NT kids who push and pinch and hit.  I think there should be consequences, but not "that kid can't be in the classroom." 

 

Then I do not think any throwing of heavy items is okay, it is way too dangerous.  If this is a possibility, an aide should be *on top of things* and not let the child near something heavy, and immediately block them and prevent it from happening. 

 

For pre-school -- I think some biting is okay, b/c NT kids are biting, too.  I think there should be consequences and a behavior plan should be followed, if it is a known issue, an aide should be watching the child like a hawk and intervene before it can happen, and head off situations where it is known the child may bite.  This will help teach the child not to bite, too. 

 

My son was pinching other kids sometimes in pre-school. 

 

He has a one-to-one aide.  If he didn't have a one-to-one aide -- I think a lot more is possible. 

 

But -- I didn't read that article like the teacher was letting her classroom be a place full of kids being hit, shoved, etc.  I read it like -- a child having a tantrum, not a child aggressive towards another child.  I read it like parents were concerned that their kids would miss out or learn to throw tantrums themselves.  I did not read it like kids were being aggressive.

 

Aggressive behavior is just not present in our inclusive school.  There are kids who have the capacity to behave in an aggressive way, and they have aides, and they have behavior plans to prevent the situtions where they are known to be aggressive, and to teach them better behavior that they can use. 

 

To be honest -- my son has been aggressive towards a pre-school teacher in a way that I would have found totally unacceptable if it was towards a child. But b/c the teacher was doing her job ---- it was her, not a child. I am very sorry for that, but his teacher looks at it as part of the learning process where my son will learn better behavior (and he has!).   

 

Since my son has had a one-to-one aide since he started special needs pre-school.  Then I have an older son who is in 4th grade. 

 

There are 1-2 kids in a class who do have a one-to-one aide, but b/c they have an aide, there are not kids getting beaten up.

 

Also ----- there is a resource room, and for many kids at many times, the resource room is the least restrictive environment. 

 

Kids are supposed to be set up for success in the general classroom.  Some kids are only participating in the general classroom, with an aide, and at times that the resource teacher has decided are the most appropriate for that child.

 

We thought my son might spend half his day in the resource room, this year, but he has turned out to have a big increase in his group behavior and his social behavior.  It is really good for him to be included in the general classroom. 

 

A lot of it is that things are done in a good way, and they have staffing. 

 

If my son did not have an aide, and was supposed to be in the general classroom all day, it would not be a good situation. 

 

But I make an assumption, that the teacher is having kids who are not aggressive enough to be in the ED classroom or to have a one-to-one aide.  Since -- that is how it is here.  Kids with that level of behaviors *would not* be the kids the teacher is talking about.

 

It sounds like she is talking about the kids with less severe problems, but still kids that some parents would have concerns about and judge. 

 

That is how I read it. 

 

But to answer -- if a behavior is still fairly common or typical (even if not desired) in NT children, I think it should be accepted in a "no need to kick them out of the room and think they shouldn't be allowed in the room" kind of way.  So -- biting in pre-school.  But biting in pre-school CAN be prevented if there is an aide, and can be ameliorated in many, many ways so that it will not be the strategy the child uses.  The child can be taught other ways. 

 

But if a child is more aggressive, then a) why does the child not have an aide?  etc.  Then b) the child would go in the ED classroom if it was past that point. 

 

 

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Heathermomster -- when I have thought about pulling my older son, it has been over his self-esteem and worrying his self-esteem would take a hit or had taken a hit. 

 

But -- his teacher this year is great, his teacher last year was great. 

 

He does not deserve to feel badly about himself, I would be pulling him ---- or what I have done, trying hard to work with the teacher. 

 

For my younger son -- I do not know when he will ever be recommended as not needing a full-time one-to-one aide.  At some point they will say "he doesn't need her here, he doesn't need her there," and then reduce his aide hours, etc. 

 

While he has an aide -- I have a lot of confidence.  His aide is lovely. 

 

I am not confronting that question yet for him.

 

 

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I can just say --  my kids are in a peaceful school.  We are in the most desirable school in our school district, and the one that houses the autism program. 

 

A lot of people value diversity and the chance for their kids to get to help others. 

 

But the kids who need them have aides, no one is expecting the other kids to teach them.

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What a beautiful article.

 

Everyone wants their own kid to be treated nicely, patiently, forgiven--but they want other kids to sit patiently for their own.

 

I appreciated this article because she empathizes first, then gets to the point--if this were you, what would you want for your family? Would you really want everyone to know all those things that are going on with your child?

 

As a former bright kid who turned out just fine even though I had to sit next to kids who sometimes screamed, sometimes yelled, who couldn't speak English--you can either get bitter that the world doesn't revolve around you, or you can get some morality in your heart and make up your mind to create a better world for all people.

 

Without the latter we wouldn't have teachers.

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Totally crying here.

 

So often the kid "with issues" never gets a chance to redefine themselves, even if behavior improves.

 

I am a one on one teacher/aide/volunteer for a kid at church. We have three hours of church on Sundays. He vocalizes and is disruptive through a lot of sacrament meeting. I walk the halls with him second hour while his parents are in Sunday school and the 60-80 other kids are in a singing/group activity time. With the exercise and sensory work we do 2nd hour, he can then go attend/participate in his small classroom time with my help. His parents get two hours of much needed spiritual and physical rest and I get some time with an awesome little guy.

 

The amount of looks and comments I get when I am walking with him second hour are heartbreaking. He is sometimes tolerated, rarely accepted, and even though he seems unaware and nonverbal, he knows. :(

 

My dd, when she was with us was similarly rejected socially.

 

What touches me about the article is the love and concern that the teacher has for everyone.

 

I will come back to post about "acceptable violence" after I change a diaper.

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It is not to be taken personnally. This is my experience. You choose if this is what you want for your children. You choose if this is what you as a taxpayer want for any child. But the lawsuits and the public comments of others for example iin the linked article show there is a need to consider the starfish who are hurting, and the price of the collateral damage. Flame away. I removed my child, and I contine to advocate for peaceful schools.you want to live in a world of hurting others, you are free to do so. We all know about the Land of DeNile.

 

What? Who said I wanted my kids to be hurt by others? That's so random.

 

The point of the article was to not make assumptions about the background of the kids who are causing problems because there is a lot more going on than what you see at the surface. I don't think the author was trying to say we should accept harm. And I certainly didn't say that.

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I think the acceptable violence question is a legitimate question, Wendy, but probably best done in a separate thread. I will chime in with my thoughts there if you post the spinoff.

 

I don't understand why it would be best done in a separate thread - I would say that question is one of the central issues of that article.  Any real discussion (as opposed to JAWM which was not tacked onto the thread) of the article would have to get into the level of violence that she is describing.

 

To me, the three stand out issues in that article are sympathy, privacy and safety.  She asks us to have sympathy for THAT kid, even though his privacy prevents her from telling us why the safety of the rest of the children is being compromised.

 

She admits that THAT kid is "is always hitting, shoving, pinching, scratching, maybe even biting other children."  I assume the always is hyperbole, but even if we replace it with frequently or weekly, that is still a BIG PROBLEM.  I don't think the "other" parents are being petty when they worry about safety and disruptions to learning in a classroom that is getting frequently interrupted by tantrums, running away, cursing, furniture throwing, etc. [all things that come straight from the article]

 

Like I said above, I have huge amounts of sympathy for THAT child and his or her parents.  I am the parent of THAT child.  I also do not begrudge them their privacy.  I have no right to know why their kid hit my kid, but I do have the right to know how the school is going to ensure that it is not happening always or frequently or even weekly.  That is the issue that seemed glaringly missing from the article.

 

Wendy

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The point of the article was to not make assumptions about the background of the kids who are causing problems because there is a lot more going on than what you see at the surface. I don't think the author was trying to say we should accept harm. And I certainly didn't say that.

 

Right, but I think what a lot of us are dancing around is that even if there are more things going on that are private, is that an excuse for the behavior? At what point does the behavior (whether it stems from a legitimate need or cause) become so disruptive to the common good or the common goals that the placement of the child is no longer appropriate?

 

Anecdotally, my kid has been this kid in some situations too, but I remove him from situations where he is disruptive to the whole. I did it just this semester in some of our outside classes. It was not fair to the others for me to leave him in that situation because he could not keep up and was being disruptive. Did he have reasons to be? Yup. But it still was not the responsibility of others to put up with his behavior that would detract from their experience. Obviously not everyone has this choice and it is far more complicated when disabilities are involved, but I do think this is a discussion that needs to be had.

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Personally, I *assume* that the level of violence she is describing is extremely minimal.  B/c I *assume* that if not, the child would have an aide, or not be just another kid in the class in some other way (like the ED classroom). 

 

Hitting can be anything from very light to very hard.  It can be a lot of things.  It is a very vague term. 

 

I read it and assumed it was mild, b/c I read into the blog post my own context, where a child who was beyond a very, very mild level would be provided with a lot of additional supports.

 

However, to her point, it is possible that after one incident a child receives a significant amount of support, but that is still private to the child, and the teacher can't go "everybody relax, we have addressed this situation by doing x, y, and z, we are really handling it in a very appropriate way, if you knew the details, your mind would be set at ease."  B/c that is also part of privacy.

 

I think you have to have a level of trust that things are being taken care of, even if you do not know the details, and that the school atmosphere is good.

 

Of course those things are not present at every school.

 

But they are present at my kids' school and was present at my younger son's pre-school. 

 

So ---- given that, it is silly to me to get into all these details that are ASSUMING that there is a high level of violence present in a Kindergarten teacher's classroom. 

 

I ASSUME that there is not any particular level of violence in a Kindergarten classroom beyond touching, poking, maybe pinching, maybe a book is pushed off a desk ----- that level of stuff.  B/c ----- beyond that level, it just does not happen where I am.  So -- that is my context, and there is no reason for me to have a hypothetical conversation where there are kids getting beaten up in Kindergarten. 

 

If those things were happening -- it would be probably just be the tip of the iceberg for problems in the school. 

 

That is my take. 

 

So, one time I went to the park with my little kids, and there were some homeschooling parents who told me "isn't it horrible, they are locking children into their classrooms at the elementary school."  We had had a note home from school that they had decided to begin to lock the side entrance to the school when no kids were out at recess.  In this game of telephone, this turned into children being locked into their classrooms. 

 

There are people I believe, and I believe almost any first-hand account. 

 

But when it gets spread around that a child was "hit" then I do just tend to think, oh, probably it was very minor or even accidental, but in gossip it has gotten spread around, and the gossip is from people who are invested in not wanting their kids in the public school in the first place.  I also heard that a pre-school my son attended had excessive religious instruction and content when it did not -- I heard that gossip from another group of women at the park, who were all very invested in having their kids go to Montessori pre-school.

 

So I am just saying -- it is hard for me to get up in arms about gossip about how there are violent children in all the schools.  It is not what I see.  I am not in DeNial. 

 

But -- I do believe there are poorer schools out there and that there are bad situations out there, and I do believe anything I here someone say that is directly the experience of one of their kids. 

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Um, yeah, it is *not* mild here. Not when there are 400-1000+ kids on the playground at any given time with 1-2 adult aides to manage all these kids. The neighbor kids have seen another kid get thrown into the fences and punched repeatedly (in an lower elementary school!), all while no adults had any idea something occurred. There is no money for one-on-one aides at all. The schools are bankrupt and then some and the district spends most of its time trying to get out of providing services for kids because they cannot afford it. So no, the level of violence is not what determines a child needing an aide - the *budget* does and many times it is not a mild situation.

 

ETA: We are in an average, suburban district. Not inner city, not rural, just suburban.

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Eh, I had hoped it would go to another thread because this is a hot enough topic that it's going to blow up the internets like the cupcake wars. I wanted to hold onto the nice feeling I had from reading it.

 

***putting on my colander for a helmet***

 

I have really mixed feelings about disruptive children in the classroom.

 

As far as violence goes, I don't think it has a place in the classroom. I'll define violence for my purposes as any touch that causes harm to another child--whether directly (bitting/hitting/kicking) or indirectly (the throwing of a block or the knocking over of a desk).  In my mind, the touch is intentional or voluntary. (IE--if your kid is having a seizure and accidentally whacks or knocks over another kid, that is not voluntary or intentional.)  I believe in peaceful schools and yet I concede that it's just not likely to be 100% peaceful if we allow a place for every child in school. If a child is repeatedly violent, I think they should be removed to a therapeutic classroom situation.

 

As far as crying/yelling in frustration/being disruptive goes, I have one of those kids. It's not fair to the classroom if they are the constant disruption.  I have the luxury and privilege of being home with my child, but not everyone can do so.  I don't think it's appropriate to lump behavior issues in with those with significant intellectual disabilities, but it's a rare school district (at least in my state) that can fund classrooms with smaller class sizes and more aides that would be a better fit for those who are capable of doing work on or above grade level but need more support to function.

 

I would love to see super small classes set up for those who are exceptionally active, exceptionally explosive, or who need super quiet and calm to function.  As adults, we can somewhat pick an environment suitable to us (work from home, choose an active job, etc.) but some kids don't have that privilege.

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I loved this article and the love that teacher has for all the students and their struggles not just THAT one. I love how she describes how the parents of THAT child are crying to her themselves. This teacher is really caring and hasn't given up on a child and isn't blaming the parents. She also worries about the kid who is having trouble with writing or letters or whatever. It gives me warm fuzzies to know that kids can be so accepted and loved.

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Personally, I *assume* that the level of violence she is describing is extremely minimal.  B/c I *assume* that if not, the child would have an aide, or not be just another kid in the class in some other way (like the ED classroom). 

 

The entire article is about her responding to parents who are worried about a reoccurring problem, about THAT kid who repeatedly does the negative things she lists.

 

She says:

"I canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t tell you that I have been meticulously tracking her aggressive incidents for 3 months, and that she has dropped from 5 incidents a day, to 5 incidents a week."

 

Five aggressive incidents a day!!  More than five acts of aggression every week for 3 months!!  Even if there is an aide there stopping the child's hand before she actually manages to hit other kids, is that really an environment conducive to learning?  Should the other kids have to be fearful in their own classroom that one day the aide will be distracted for an instant and they will get hit?  

 

I don't think that school has things nearly as under control as the one your children attend.  I think many schools introduce special needs kids into general ed classrooms without the proper safety measures in place simply because they cannot afford to pay aides.  In the article, there are a few places that hint to me that there was no aide with the child.

 

Like:

"The one who poured his neighborĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s milk onto the floor in a fit of anger. On purpose. While I was watching.  And then, when I asked him to clean it up, emptied the ENTIRE paper towel dispenser. On purpose."

 

If that child had an aide, 1) I would have expected the aide to stop the milk pouring...if we have to rely on them to stop hitting and furniture throwing then they better be fast enough to stop him grabbing and dumping his neighbor's milk and 2) I would expect the aide to supervise the milk clean up instead of the teacher, so that the teacher can get back to managing the whole class...that is the whole point of the child having an aide.

 

I think inclusion can be a wonderful thing, but I do not think this article paints it in a good light.  This article says to me, "I know your children are getting hurt and that class is constantly disrupted, and I WORRY about it, I really do, but there are legitimate reasons for the tantrums and violence and I'm doing the best I can, so please stop asking me questions I can't answer.  PS. Don't worry, if it was your kid always scratching and biting the others I wouldn't tell their parents what was going on either." 

 

Look at these paragraphs...in fact, let's shrink that middle paragraph because it is just a red herring thrown in to distract you by reminding you that there but by the grace of God go thee:

 

"YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that THAT child is detracting from your childĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s learning experience. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that he takes up too much of my time and energy, and that your child wonĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t get his fair share. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that she is really going to hurt someone some day. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that Ă¢â‚¬Å“someoneĂ¢â‚¬ might be your child. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that your child is going to start using aggression to get what she wants. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried your child is going to fall behind academically because I might not notice that he is struggling to hold a pencil. I know.

 

Your child, this year, in this classroom, at this age, is not THAT child. Your child is not perfect, but she generally follows rules. He is able to share toys peaceably. She does not throw furniture. He raises his hand to speak. She works when it is time to work, and  plays when it is time to play. He can be trusted to go straight to the bathroom and straight back again with no shenanigans. She thinks that the S-word is Ă¢â‚¬Å“stupidĂ¢â‚¬ and the C-word is Ă¢â‚¬Å“crap.Ă¢â‚¬ I know.

 

I know, and I am worried, too."

 

The teacher is worried about all those things too!!  She is worried that THAT child "is really going to hurt someone some day".  That is not a healthy learning environment.

 

Wendy

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If a child is repeatedly violent, I think they should be removed to a therapeutic classroom situation.

 

My issue is that usually the repeatedly violent kids are those with nobody to watch out for them or advocate for them.

 

The "therapeutic classroom situation" often resembles more a prison or a padded room, in effect. Now if you don't see that now, that's because we have done so much to get everyone served equally.

 

But we have a horrible track record with our special needs children when we take them away from the others and take them away from oversight.

 

I'm not saying I want my kid in a classroom where there is an eight-year-old pooping in the corner or throwing books at my daughter's head. No, I don't want that.

 

But, and forgive me but again I'm going to point out that--we all pay for this and money IS finite at least during the fiscal year. Okay, kids should be removed to "therapeutic situations" but those are often in terrible places because there isn't the money for a whole separate school. Is that okay? It's one of those things that is easy to say but extremely expensive and difficult to do well. So the article is about being patient with the abandoned children of our society and helping rather than judging and trying to isolate ourselves from them.

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if we have to rely on them to stop hitting and furniture throwing then they better be fast enough to stop him grabbing and dumping his neighbor's milk and 2) I would expect the aide to supervise the milk clean up instead of the teacher, so that the teacher can get back to managing the whole class...that is the whole point of the child having an aide.
 
--quote malfunctioned, sorry, my text below--
 
I think the difference is that teachers and aides can touch someone to prevent permanent damage to life and limb, but NOT to stop bad behavior.
 
So, no, they are not going to be able to physically stop them from being extremely rude. At least not in my state.
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I've had third grade juvenile justice clients who were violent offenders as an attorney; the juvenile justice classrooms and therapeutic classrooms are surprisingly decent here. Previously, many just would have been expelled permanently. This way, they get education + services....not nearly enough services, but something... Still, those kids need a lot more support than our system can provide as currently funded.

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There is no answer to the question of how much violence is acceptable. If you are the parent of the kid being hurt or inconvenienced, your answer is obviously going to be 0 tolerance. On the other hand, if you are the parent of the cahild with disabilities/extenuating-circumstances/pick-the-label-of-your-choice, you need your child to receive an education.

 

It is impossible to please everyone at once, and teachers are in the line of fire from both sides.

 

Lovely article BTW.

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But spilling milk is not a violent, aggressive behavior that could have harmed another student.  It is something where -- you make the child clean up their milk and have a consequence or talk to them or whatever. 

 

When I say I would expect an aide to prevent a child from throwing a heavy object or hitting, I do NOT mean that every child who might purposely spill their milk requires an aide. 

 

I also am a little sorry to say this, but reporting an incidence that you heard from a neighbor who is in lower elementary school -- I just do not trust that as credible evidence.  I am not saying it couldn't happen, or that it doesn't go on, or anything like that.  I just think -- I do not believe everything that lower elementary students who are neighbors tell me. 

 

I live in a smallish town, but I have been in 3 elementary schools a decent amount of time.  My older son was in pre-school speech therapy and I used to take my little kids out on the blacktop while he was in speech, in nice weather.  I was seeing 2-3 teachers out with 50-60 kids, and I saw behavior that made me think "I would be happy for my kids to attend this school."  This elementary school had 3 separate recess areas, I was only in the one used by the older kids, it was near the speech room. 

 

My younger son was in a special needs pre-school located at another elementary school.  His pre-fab classroom was located right next to the basketball courts, and there would be kids who were about 3rd-4th grade out for recess when I dropped him off.  I never saw anything I didn't like.  We went to math night and school carnivals there, I took my daughter to the book fair there in the school library and saw older kids having their library time, I have been in and out of that building during school hours a few times to talk to the nurse (I needed to go about shot records, and I was called once or twice to pick up my son).  I did not like that school as much, but I saw no bad behavior and I did not see an atmosphere where it seemed like it was present.  Kids from my church attend this school, and I have only heard good things about it from their parents. 

 

Then -- my own kids' school.  I am out gossiping almost every day at pick-up (unless it is raining or very cold) and I have not heard *anything.* 

 

I do not think my state is particularly well-funded, but there is money for kids to have aides.  There is an ED classroom.  My son is part of the autism resource room -- they have a quiet area and a loud area, so they can have space for kids who need it to be quiet, and for kids who are making noises.  My son goes to that room as needed, right now he is not going very much, he is taking breaks and doing his sensory folder in the hallway more often.  If he needed to go to the resource room, he would.  If it was known that he was going to have difficulty at a certain time of day, he would go to the resource room ahead of time, and there would be some plan with the resource teacher to get him ready for that, or just to have that be something he didn't do, depending on what it is.  Some kids just do not go to PE b/c the gym is very noisy, and that is okay. 

 

But what is interesting -- most parents do not know anything about the resource room program in particular, they don't know how it works, or what it is like inside the room.  Kids (typical kids) go in there for Circle of Friends sometimes (this is voluntary and requires a permission slip), and I have had a couple of parents ask me what it is like, what they do, etc.  It is not information the school is sharing. 

 

It is really obvious that my son has an aide, but for a lot of kids, the aide is not clearly attached to a certain child, they act as a helper to the teacher, even though they are *really* an aide.  A lot/most parents of kids in that situation keep it a secret that their child is the one receiving aide support, that their child has an IEP, etc.  They do not want it to trickle down from parents to the kids in class.  By older grades I think kids have an idea, but it seems to work for the younger grades. 

 

But overall -- spilling milk is not the same as throwing a heavy object.  A child who spills milk doesn't need an aide b/c they spilled milk.  So to say -- "milk was spilled, where was the aide?" just does not make sense to me.   

 

And as for me -- if my kids are pushed, bitten at a younger age, pinched at a younger age, poked ------ to me, a lot of this falls into the range of "things small children do."  I would be upset about a bruise, an injury, etc.  I would not be upset if one of my kids was mildly pushed or slapped on the arm.  I mean ---- if it was a pattern of behavior, if they were a target, if they were very upset, etc. etc. of course I would be upset. 

 

But if it is like -- being mildly pushed, or the kind-of "hard bumping into people from the side" that kids can do sometimes ----- that is all okay with me (if it happens once in a while).  I don't think it is *desirable* but I do not think "my precious child, what HORRIBLE child has done this to her?" 

 

But I have seen for myself -- what is my "lightly brushed" is another person's "assault!!!!"  What is my "lightly slapped on the arm, it looked playful to me, the kids are playing together, no one is upset" is another person's "totally unacceptable." 

 

I think I am in the middle range, I am not looking away when kids are hurting each other or being mean or many, many other things (mostly non-physical, more of the "being mean, excluding" kind of behavior that I see at times), but it is okay with me if kids touch each other, too. 

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I also am a little sorry to say this, but reporting an incidence that you heard from a neighbor who is in lower elementary school -- I just do not trust that as credible evidence.  I am not saying it couldn't happen, or that it doesn't go on, or anything like that.  I just think -- I do not believe everything that lower elementary students who are neighbors tell me. 

 

I live in a smallish town, but I have been in 3 elementary schools a decent amount of time.  My older son was in pre-school speech therapy and I used to take my little kids out on the blacktop while he was in speech, in nice weather.  I was seeing 2-3 teachers out with 50-60 kids, and I saw behavior that made me think "I would be happy for my kids to attend this school."  This elementary school had 3 separate recess areas, I was only in the one used by the older kids, it was near the speech room. 

 

I do not think my state is particularly well-funded, but there is money for kids to have aides.  There is an ED classroom.  My son is part of the autism resource room -- they have a quiet area and a loud area, so they can have space for kids who need it to be quiet, and for kids who are making noises.  My son goes to that room as needed, right now he is not going very much, he is taking breaks and doing his sensory folder in the hallway more often.  If he needed to go to the resource room, he would.  If it was known that he was going to have difficulty at a certain time of day, he would go to the resource room ahead of time, and there would be some plan with the resource teacher to get him ready for that, or just to have that be something he didn't do, depending on what it is.  Some kids just do not go to PE b/c the gym is very noisy, and that is okay. 

 

But what is interesting -- most parents do not know anything about the resource room program in particular, they don't know how it works, or what it is like inside the room.  Kids (typical kids) go in there for Circle of Friends sometimes (this is voluntary and requires a permission slip), and I have had a couple of parents ask me what it is like, what they do, etc.  It is not information the school is sharing. 

 

It is really obvious that my son has an aide, but for a lot of kids, the aide is not clearly attached to a certain child, they act as a helper to the teacher, even though they are *really* an aide.  A lot/most parents of kids in that situation keep it a secret that their child is the one receiving aide support, that their child has an IEP, etc.  They do not want it to trickle down from parents to the kids in class.  By older grades I think kids have an idea, but it seems to work for the younger grades. 

 

Unfortunately, I do believe it. I'm glad your experience has been so good, but I'm not sure why you don't believe those of us who have had the opposite experience.

 

Things are VERY bad in some places. I was highly involved in ds's school before we pulled him out of PS, volunteering in the classroom at least once a week. I have multiple friends who currently work as aides for the district and I frequently chatted with his teacher about her need for aides (for the 5 K'ers in her class with IEPs - 20% of the class with 1 part time aide for all) There is NO money here. Our state has just been sued by districts for not funding education and LOST. That means even our state supreme court agrees that the legislature is not adequately funding education. The voters just passed another unfunded initiative to reduce class sizes which will probably not even go into effect because our state is already so far in the hole on education. This lack of funding results in situations that are indeed violent for kids.

 

Our schools are massively overcrowded. I was on the playground when ds was enrolled in school. It was absolutely 500+ kids at a time with minimal supervision and no balls (the balls would get popped early in the year and there was no money to replace them). This school has cut PE for all students under 4th grade due to space issues and they also eliminated art, which had been moved to an after-school pay-to-play activity. The school OT was on campus for 2 hrs a week in a room she had to share with other support staff, so the equipment was not even always available for use by kids who needed it for calm down or sensory integration. I know this for a fact because ds was in private OT at the time and I was trying to get him some additional time at school. While the OT was a nice woman, she laughed at me when I asked about options. She barely had time to meet with all the severely impacted kids for a few minutes a week, never mind a kid who was receiving private therapy outside of school time.

 

I really, truly am happy for you that you have found such a great situation for your kids. But that is not necessarily the norm for PS. In many ways I wish it was. We did not intend to homeschool but our school situation was not acceptable.

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I am just tired of (locally) having experiences where I have "heard" that "such-and-such happened at such-and-such school" and yet people I know who would have first-hand experience have not heard it, or they tell me something that is so much more benign.  There is also some prejudice against military children who are perceived to move in and be behind and bring the other children down -- I have heard comments like this locally, but with my husband in the military, it can make my blood boil, while I also can see how it can be true sometimes, b/c of kids who were in a poor school before they moved here. 

 

I do believe that information.  That is -- first-hand information from an adult.  Talking about school funding etc. 

 

I also totally believe the information from people in the schools. 

 

B/c my son's private therapy agency hires a lot of people who also work or have worked in the schools, I hear things, too.  I am pleased to hear that things are going good from behind the scenes (thank goodness).  There is a school district not too far away, that I hear really bad things about, and I do not know what I would do if we lived there.  I hear from people who have worked as aides that there are things going on that are not acceptable. 

 

Our state is maybe not going in a good direction financially.  There have been decreased tax revenues b/c of cutting business tax rates (to try to encourage businesses to expand and hire more people).  But -- so far tax revenues are down.  Supposedly (I voted for the other side, who are skeptical) within the next few years the tax revenues will go up b/c of increased business growth. 

 

I am really hopeful that if there are cuts at the state level, my own town might vote to raise property taxes to keep the schools funded. 

 

But if there was no money for aides -- my younger son could not be in public school (though I am hopeful he will improve enough to not need an aide). 

 

If there was no supervision, I am sure that things would happen, that do not happen while there is proper supervision. 

 

But for me -- I am just so tired of hearing gossipy type stuff about "so-and-so told so-and-so told so-and-so that so-and-so's child's friend said that x horrible thing happened in the public school."  When I am hearing this locally -- it is either a lie or it is so twisted as to be unrecognizable. There are people locally who have an agenda that requires them to dislike the public school, and it irritates me, b/c there is not a basis in truth for it.  Like -- you are free to homeschool, you don't have to disparage the public schools to justify homeschooling.  Just homeschool b/c you choose to.  There is no reason to pity my poor children b/c I don't love them enough to keep them out of the public school (comments like this I have heard).  To be fair though -- I was hearing a lot of those comments from one place, and it was a church where almost everyone homeschooled, and there was pressure to homeschool.  I was criticized for taking my pre-school son to speech therapy in the public school -- like -- I was a bad person for thinking he needed speech therapy.  I switched churches and now I attend a church where almost all the kids attend public school, and it is a better deal for me. 

 

 

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Lecka, I totally understand the frustration you feel when people make blanket statements based on hearsay, without any first hand experience or a good source of information.  Happens a lot.  And I know that sometimes people vilify ps without basis, just because they "heard" something from someone who heard something from someone else.  Or have one anecdotal incident to refer to and broaden that one incident to apply to ALL situations even remotely like it without any evidence to back it up.  I hear you.  I sympathize.  It is frustrating and means that when there ARE real concerns it is harder to take them seriously.  Most people posting here seem to be talking about their personal experiences, so I don't think that is an issue here, though.

 

I will also say, Lecka, that your school district is in much better shape than mine.  If my kids were in your school district I would probably have left DS in school.  He would have been happier.  I love hearing the stories you have shared about how supportive your school is.  That is wonderful and gives me hope that maybe other schools can turn things around and do better.  

 

We are not in one of those districts.  We are located in one of the best for the area.  But we do not have the services you describe.  Not at all.  And there are definitely no aides available.  There are very, very few support programs in any of the schools, the few that exist do not follow state guidelines and are not based on any scientific research and the classrooms are horribly crowded.  We have bullying issues starting in 4k.  We have had problems with teacher suicides.  There is violence in the classroom on a regular basis.  Every day in every classroom?  No.  But there are enough incidents now that my nephew's Middle School has been on lockdown 3 times since the start of school and armed police patrol the halls.

 

The elementary school near our house has NO programs in place for kids with learning challenges.  And definitely no aides.  Why?  Because the principal believes that ADD/ADHD. dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, autism and even mental illness, etc. are made up by parents to excuse their lazy children and the medical community is supporting these false diagnoses for money.  She believes this so strongly she has refused Federal aid so she doesn't have to offer any services to these kids.  She puts all of her effort into improving standardized test scores.  That is mostly what the kids do in school is prep for standardized tests.  I didn't hear this from a friend of a friend of a friend.  I have friends and family working in the school system.  I have friends and family with kids in the school system.  I have been in the school system.  I have worked in the classrooms.  I have tutored their kids.  The principal lives directly behind my house. We have spoken several times over the years. She has made her position quite clear.

 

One of my nephews became THAT KID because his parents were going through a horrific divorce.  His world crumbled.  His mental state deteriorated.  No one was trained to recognize the signs of severe depression.  No systems were in place to help the teacher maintain control or help him or protect the other students.  He became more and more belligerent and eventually violent.  Other kids were in danger but they were not protected and he was not given the help that he needed.  He ended up stabbing another kid in the hand with a pencil, causing lasting damage.  And causing lasting consequences for himself and his family as well.

 

And I have seen the results of the challenging school situation here first hand with my other nephews and niece.  All very bright kids.  Some became THAT KID, and got no support or help (as mentioned above).  Some became the victim of THAT KID (not my nephew but other kids).  And suffered tremendously emotionally AND academically because of it.  

 

I agree with up thread, teachers can only do so much.  Without proper training and support structures in place. THAT KID and the victims and classmates of THAT KID are going to be in bad circumstances.  Everybody loses.  

 

I very much appreciate the article.  We all need to recognize that children need grace and support.  Vilifying them does no one any good.  But we also need to protect our children and other people's children and provide a safe environment for ALL kids.  That takes training, resources, effort and understanding.  Not all school districts have those systems in place.  So what happens to the kids when they don't?  And what should be our response as parents?  I don't know, except to try and effect positive change while protecting our children in whatever way we can, whether we have THAT KID or the potential victim of THAT KID.

 

Hugs and best wishes to ALL.

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I think it does matter, with the blog post, if the teacher is writing as a teacher in a school district that is like my school district, or if she is writing as a teacher in a troubled school district. 

 

I do read it as coming from a teacher in a school district more like ours.  Then I think it is appropriate to take it at face value -- that the teacher is handling things well, and parents can trust what is happening in school.

 

If she is writing it as a teacher in a troubled school -- I would not agree, either.

 

But I do not think it is necessary to "insist" that the teacher is in a troubled school full of unacceptable things, based on what is written.  I think it is reading into it, things that are not there.   

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I really, truly am happy for you that you have found such a great situation for your kids. But that is not necessarily the norm for PS. In many ways I wish it was. We did not intend to homeschool but our school situation was not acceptable.

 

I think one of the problems with this whole issue is there is no "norm for PS".  There is no standardization in the US for schools - every district is different.  The grade school my older DD attended was much more like Lecka's description than FairProspects (or OneStepAtATimes's).   It is not a "great situation" - it is just a "normal" PS (with plenty of things that need improvement).    There are many, many schools out there just like my local school and there are many, many schools out there just like the school FairProspects describes.   The mistake comes from thinking that either of these situations is "the" norm for PS  or applying situations/solutions to one type of school as situations/solutions for all schools.

 

As for the article, I would think the writer is coming from a school more like Lecka's and mine - because in the description she is clearly describing the school handling the situation well -  not a situation of chaos or nonaction.     Personally I think such schools would do better to publish what they do generally to handle such situations - because if the parents trusted that it was really being taken care of they would be less likely to be pushing for answers.   No answer is not acceptable.  No specific answer because it violates privacy but here is our policy for handling X, Y and Z would be much more acceptable.

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Real question.  Not snark.

 

What level of violence and injury do you think is an acceptable price to pay for inclusiveness?

 

From the article:

"The one who is always hitting, shoving, pinching, scratching, maybe even biting other children."

She talks about throwing blocks and furniture and punching leading to black eyes.

 

Above you said about your son, "He is not bothering anyone, the aide can take him for a break as needed. "

It doesn't sound like that article is written about kids like your son who aren't bothering anyone.  It sounds like that teacher is fielding questions from parents whose kids are profoundly bothered and hit, shoved, scratched, bitten, punched, and hit with blocks and furniture.

 

Which leads me back to me sincere question:

What level of violence and injury do you think is an acceptable price to pay for inclusiveness?

 

Wendy

Zero tolerance policy here.  I would never let my kid be hurt - especially repeatedly - by someone who expects me to "understand".   I don't care what the setting is.

 

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I think it does matter, with the blog post, if the teacher is writing as a teacher in a school district that is like my school district, or if she is writing as a teacher in a troubled school district. 

 

I do read it as coming from a teacher in a school district more like ours.  Then I think it is appropriate to take it at face value -- that the teacher is handling things well, and parents can trust what is happening in school.

 

If she is writing it as a teacher in a troubled school -- I would not agree, either.

 

But I do not think it is necessary to "insist" that the teacher is in a troubled school full of unacceptable things, based on what is written.  I think it is reading into it, things that are not there.   

 

I think the things are there.  A lot of violence and use of words like always and again and 5 incidents a day that show a clear pattern of the child NOT being stopped in time.  You put a lot of stock into people talking about their personal experiences.  This is a teacher using these words to describe her own class.

 

"The one who is always hitting, shoving, pinching, scratching, maybe even biting other children."

 

"The one who had to leave the block center because blocks are not for throwing. The one who climbed over the playground fence right exactly as I was telling her to stop. The one who poured his neighborĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s milk onto the floor in a fit of anger. On purpose. While I was watching.  And then, when I asked him to clean it up, emptied the ENTIRE paper towel dispenser. On purpose. While I was watching. The one who dropped the REAL ACTUAL F-word in gym class."

 

"YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that she is really going to hurt someone some day. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried that Ă¢â‚¬Å“someoneĂ¢â‚¬ might be your child....I know, and I am worried, too."

 

"...I have been meticulously tracking her aggressive incidents for 3 months, and that she has dropped from 5 incidents a day, to 5 incidents a week."

 

"I canĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t tell you that I have stood up in a staff meeting and, with tears in my eyes, BEGGED my colleagues to keep an extra close eye on her, to be kind to her even when they are frustrated that she just punched someone AGAIN, and this time, RIGHT IN FRONT OF A TEACHER."

 

[all emphasis mine]

 

I find it very telling that she says..

"The thing is, dear parent, that I can only talk to you about YOUR child. So, what I can tell you is this:"

 

And I look at the list of thing she can tell that parent and at no point does she say she will keep their child safe.  To me, that is the fundamental mandate of a school - keep my child safe.  And yet that is not something she can promise the parent, because earlier in the article she herself, in her own words, about her own classroom, said that she was worried that THAT child would "really hurt someone some day."  She also said she was worried that THAT child would detract from the rest of the class's learning and take up more than his fair share of the teacher's time and that other children might start to copy his aggressive acts.

 

You said yourself:

There is a school district not too far away, that I hear really bad things about, and I do not know what I would do if we lived there.  I hear from people who have worked as aides that there are things going on that are not acceptable. 

 

Well, when I read that article I am hearing from a teacher who works in a school where "things are going on that are not acceptable".

 

Wendy

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I think one of the problems with this whole issue is there is no "norm for PS".  There is no standardization in the US for schools - every district is different.  The grade school my older DD attended was much more like Lecka's description than FairProspects (or OneStepAtATimes's).   It is not a "great situation" - it is just a "normal" PS (with plenty of things that need improvement).    There are many, many schools out there just like my local school and there are many, many schools out there just like the school FairProspects describes.   The mistake comes from thinking that either of these situations is "the" norm for PS  or applying situations/solutions to one type of school as situations/solutions for all schools.

 

As for the article, I would think the writer is coming from a school more like Lecka's and mine - because in the description she is clearly describing the school handling the situation well -  not a situation of chaos or nonaction.     Personally I think such schools would do better to publish what they do generally to handle such situations - because if the parents trusted that it was really being taken care of they would be less likely to be pushing for answers.   No answer is not acceptable.  No specific answer because it violates privacy but here is our policy for handling X, Y and Z would be much more acceptable.

:iagree:

 

But the writer does seem to mention a rather large frequency of violent incidence.  I can count on just 10 fingers the amount of violent incidents I was witness to in elementary school.  Just hardly ever happened.  In all those years of ps at elementary schools.  She seems to be talking about multiple incidents a week.  That seems to be a bigger safety issue than what I ever had to deal with.  And I would be concerned about my child facing that on a regular basis.

 

The milk, thing, though does not seem as big an issue to me.  Kids get defiant and angry and make mistakes.  It happens.  No one was hurt.

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"The one who poured his neighborĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s milk onto the floor in a fit of anger. On purpose. While I was watching.  And then, when I asked him to clean it up, emptied the ENTIRE paper towel dispenser. On purpose. While I was watching. ."

 

Is it just me? Because the milk thing has been quoted at least twice in this thread - and I am just not getting how it is something to get all het up about. 

 

 

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Eh, I had hoped it would go to another thread because this is a hot enough topic that it's going to blow up the internets like the cupcake wars. I wanted to hold onto the nice feeling I had from reading it.

 

***putting on my colander for a helmet***

 

I have really mixed feelings about disruptive children in the classroom.

 

As far as violence goes, I don't think it has a place in the classroom. I'll define violence for my purposes as any touch that causes harm to another child--whether directly (bitting/hitting/kicking) or indirectly (the throwing of a block or the knocking over of a desk).  In my mind, the touch is intentional or voluntary. (IE--if your kid is having a seizure and accidentally whacks or knocks over another kid, that is not voluntary or intentional.)  I believe in peaceful schools and yet I concede that it's just not likely to be 100% peaceful if we allow a place for every child in school. If a child is repeatedly violent, I think they should be removed to a therapeutic classroom situation.

 

As far as crying/yelling in frustration/being disruptive goes, I have one of those kids. It's not fair to the classroom if they are the constant disruption.  I have the luxury and privilege of being home with my child, but not everyone can do so.  I don't think it's appropriate to lump behavior issues in with those with significant intellectual disabilities, but it's a rare school district (at least in my state) that can fund classrooms with smaller class sizes and more aides that would be a better fit for those who are capable of doing work on or above grade level but need more support to function.

 

I would love to see super small classes set up for those who are exceptionally active, exceptionally explosive, or who need super quiet and calm to function.  As adults, we can somewhat pick an environment suitable to us (work from home, choose an active job, etc.) but some kids don't have that privilege.

Laughing at the bolded.  Nice bit of levity there.  ;)

 

I agree with you; ongoing, constant disruption is not acceptable.  Every kid can have a bad day now and then, though.     We sure pay enough in tax money, which funds schools around here.  (As a landlord, I pay DOUBLE on each property - for schools I do not use).  Why in the heck can they not fund classrooms?  What are they doing with the $14,000 per student they are extracting from us every year (she asks, rhetorically)?

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After having yet another discussion but not discussion last night at my afterschool care about THAT child with the parent of the ont the kids are normally talking about (we have 2 that fit the bill of THAT child), I think I need to print this off to add to our newsletters going out tomorrow.  I worry about my daycare kids constantly, I push for advocacy for those kids, make sure they all feel loved and wanted there, I have been the extra push for parents to get a formal Dx on their kids after I had been meticulously tracking what I was seeing. For example, 1 was diagnosed 2 weeks ago with epilepsy-  I noticed when I started there this summer he was blanking out. I started tracking incidents, mom and dad showed my chart to a dr, they had him in for an EEG within a few days and he is not on meds for epilepsy, he has absence seizures. THis is a sweet little boy that was labelled as THAT boy, we had staff (the ones I replaced) who argued to have this little 4 year old kicked out of the problem because they were tired of changing his wet pants and him "ignoring" them and acting out.  Sweetheart has 2 things going on, one is the seizures, he was not wetting to be bad or ignoring them, he was having a seizure.  HE does not do bad things just to annoy people, his parents rarely show him affection, he is in search of it.  WIthout a caring adult he does what gets him attention fastest...the "bad" stuff.  

I can't tell families about the other kids,  like how my FASD boy is acting out more right now because although gramma has custody she has been very ill, and so he has been living with his teacher's aide 1/2 the time, and they had to move 45 minutes away and have a really long drive to get to before school care and at the end of th work day, and he has hit a growth spurt so his meds are being adjusted.  But that he tells me everyday I am gorgeous and he wants to marry every girl he sees, and tries to comfort the little kids if they get hurt and loves kitty cats and flowers.  

 

I can't tell them how my boy acting out so much, is struggling with less sleep because hockey season has started, and his mom has a new live in boyfriend, and she doesn't want to fight with him so she lets him have monster energy and gatorade for breakfast in the morning and so he is too agitated and then crashing from those drinks to maintain appropriate behaviours and he sometimes misses his meds, and needs further supports that are slow coming in the classroom.  Nor Can I tell them how far he has come, that he is getting better that asking a staff for help rather than lashing out when he feels frustrated and that many times when he has gotten in trouble for fighting it is because he felt he was defending his friends and just approached it wrong.  He is loyal to a fault and it gets him into trouble.  SO next time their kid comes home saying so and so hit me, maybe ask for more details because usually it is because your kid said or did something to offend/hurt this boy's friend and he feels it is his duty to defend said friend.  He has not yet learned the tools to do so appropriately but he means well.

I can't tell parents that that pair of sisters who are always driving everyone batty with their behaviours are sadly neglected and I comb their hair out before school each day so they will look half decent and not get teased anymore, and they don't get breakfast, so they start the day hungry and hot lunch is only served at school 3 days a week, so they don't get lunch on the other 2 days unless a teacher gives them some (which they usually do) and 3 nights a week the school gives the left over hot lunch to them to take home so they can have a more balanced dinner not just mac&cheese.  

Or that that little girl pulling hair in the daycare is the child of a drug addict who is in daycare so her mom can have a job for the first time and that the child just got returned to mom after being in foster care and she is just a little baby looking for love and affection and lacks the vocabulary  to tell us what she needs so she pulls the hair of the person standing closest and makes them cry.  

Every one of those kids in my care has a reason behind their behaviours, and everyone of them deserves to be there and get equal love and attention and learning as everyone else in that room.  It doesn't matter if they have special needs, are at risk or are neurotypical with perfect home lives, they all deserve the chance to grow, to learn, to be loved and to just be kids like everyone else.  And yes sometimes bad things happen right while I am standing there, and when they do I will comfort the injured, and teach the offender other ways to behave and advocate for the rights of both and then I will home to my own children and try to focus on their unique needs and struggles while continuing to worry about the kid in my care.  I will pay to take extra training to work with those kids in my care in order to give them what they each need, I will fill my spare moments reading and learning more ways to help, and compiling lists of resources to share with families to ensure they get the supports they need.  

ANd while your child may be the one that gets hurt by THAT child, they may also learn true compassion, empathy, experience better diversity, witness equality first hand and who knows perhaps their time in the class with THAT child will be what spurs them on to become great teachers, educational assistants, speech therapists, Occupational therapists, or sign language interpreters.  Perhaps they will go into medicine to help others like THAT child, or into research to better understand THOSE kids, or maybe they will make little bracelets to sell to raise money towards a piece of equipment that would help that child communicate better in class without needing to hit.  It is quite possible that for all the worry you have about the negative influence THAT child will have on your child, THAT child just may spur something quite positive in yours instead, even if that something positive comes in the form of seeing how the teacher responds to both THAT kid and yours.

**general you and yours of course**

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:iagree:

 

But the writer does seem to mention a rather large frequency of violent incidence.  I can count on just 10 fingers the amount of violent incidents I was witness to in elementary school.  Just hardly ever happened.  In all those years of ps at elementary schools.  She seems to be talking about multiple incidents a week.  That seems to be a bigger safety issue than what I ever had to deal with.  And I would be concerned about my child facing that on a regular basis.

 

The milk, thing, though does not seem as big an issue to me.  Kids get defiant and angry and make mistakes.  It happens.  No one was hurt.

No kidding.

I went to school long, long ago...not Laura Ingalls-era, but my kids think it was. 

 

I observed maybe two fistfights in my entire elementary school time.  Oh, and one girl followed me home and threatened to beat me up...my brother came and put the fear of God into her.  That's it. 

What IS this with all the troubled kids today, hitting others, hurting people, throwing things?  What the heck? 

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"The one who poured his neighborĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s milk onto the floor in a fit of anger. On purpose. While I was watching.  And then, when I asked him to clean it up, emptied the ENTIRE paper towel dispenser. On purpose. While I was watching. ."

 

Is it just me? Because the milk thing has been quoted at least twice in this thread - and I am just not getting how it is something to get all het up about. 

 

I don't care about the milk, I care about the fit of anger (hmmm, maybe that is why I bolded that).  Kids who are acting in fits of anger need to be very closely monitored.  If that child also "always" hits, pushes and scratches, then I do not feel he is being monitored carefully enough to be in close contact with other children.

 

Wendy

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After having yet another discussion but not discussion last night at my afterschool care about THAT child with the parent of the ont the kids are normally talking about (we have 2 that fit the bill of THAT child), I think I need to print this off to add to our newsletters going out tomorrow.  I worry about my daycare kids constantly, I push for advocacy for those kids, make sure they all feel loved and wanted there, I have been the extra push for parents to get a formal Dx on their kids after I had been meticulously tracking what I was seeing. For example, 1 was diagnosed 2 weeks ago with epilepsy-  I noticed when I started there this summer he was blanking out. I started tracking incidents, mom and dad showed my chart to a dr, they had him in for an EEG within a few days and he is not on meds for epilepsy, he has absence seizures. THis is a sweet little boy that was labelled as THAT boy, we had staff (the ones I replaced) who argued to have this little 4 year old kicked out of the problem because they were tired of changing his wet pants and him "ignoring" them and acting out.  Sweetheart has 2 things going on, one is the seizures, he was not wetting to be bad or ignoring them, he was having a seizure.  HE does not do bad things just to annoy people, his parents rarely show him affection, he is in search of it.  WIthout a caring adult he does what gets him attention fastest...the "bad" stuff.  

 

I can't tell families about the other kids,  like how my FASD boy is acting out more right now because although gramma has custody she has been very ill, and so he has been living with his teacher's aide 1/2 the time, and they had to move 45 minutes away and have a really long drive to get to before school care and at the end of th work day, and he has hit a growth spurt so his meds are being adjusted.  But that he tells me everyday I am gorgeous and he wants to marry every girl he sees, and tries to comfort the little kids if they get hurt and loves kitty cats and flowers.  

 

I can't tell them how my boy acting out so much, is struggling with less sleep because hockey season has started, and his mom has a new live in boyfriend, and she doesn't want to fight with him so she lets him have monster energy and gatorade for breakfast in the morning and so he is too agitated and then crashing from those drinks to maintain appropriate behaviours and he sometimes misses his meds, and needs further supports that are slow coming in the classroom.  Nor Can I tell them how far he has come, that he is getting better that asking a staff for help rather than lashing out when he feels frustrated and that many times when he has gotten in trouble for fighting it is because he felt he was defending his friends and just approached it wrong.  He is loyal to a fault and it gets him into trouble.  SO next time their kid comes home saying so and so hit me, maybe ask for more details because usually it is because your kid said or did something to offend/hurt this boy's friend and he feels it is his duty to defend said friend.  He has not yet learned the tools to do so appropriately but he means well.

 

I can't tell parents that that pair of sisters who are always driving everyone batty with their behaviours are sadly neglected and I comb their hair out before school each day so they will look half decent and not get teased anymore, and they don't get breakfast, so they start the day hungry and hot lunch is only served at school 3 days a week, so they don't get lunch on the other 2 days unless a teacher gives them some (which they usually do) and 3 nights a week the school gives the left over hot lunch to them to take home so they can have a more balanced dinner not just mac&cheese.  

 

Or that that little girl pulling hair in the daycare is the child of a drug addict who is in daycare so her mom can have a job for the first time and that the child just got returned to mom after being in foster care and she is just a little baby looking for love and affection and lacks the vocabulary  to tell us what she needs so she pulls the hair of the person standing closest and makes them cry.  

 

Every one of those kids in my care has a reason behind their behaviours, and everyone of them deserves to be there and get equal love and attention and learning as everyone else in that room.  It doesn't matter if they have special needs, are at risk or are neurotypical with perfect home lives, they all deserve the chance to grow, to learn, to be loved and to just be kids like everyone else.  And yes sometimes bad things happen right while I am standing there, and when they do I will comfort the injured, and teach the offender other ways to behave and advocate for the rights of both and then I will home to my own children and try to focus on their unique needs and struggles while continuing to worry about the kid in my care.  I will pay to take extra training to work with those kids in my care in order to give them what they each need, I will fill my spare moments reading and learning more ways to help, and compiling lists of resources to share with families to ensure they get the supports they need.  

ANd while your child may be the one that gets hurt by THAT child, they may also learn true compassion, empathy, experience better diversity, witness equality first hand and who knows perhaps their time in the class with THAT child will be what spurs them on to become great teachers, educational assistants, speech therapists, Occupational therapists, or sign language interpreters.  Perhaps they will go into medicine to help others like THAT child, or into research to better understand THOSE kids, or maybe they will make little bracelets to sell to raise money towards a piece of equipment that would help that child communicate better in class without needing to hit.  It is quite possible that for all the worry you have about the negative influence THAT child will have on your child, THAT child just may spur something quite positive in yours instead, even if that something positive comes in the form of seeing how the teacher responds to both THAT kid and yours.

 

**general you and yours of course**

 

 

I'm going to go ahead and quote your entire post because it was lovely.

 

I wish wish wish that all adults could accept that children do not act out because they are bad kids trying to do bad things. 

They act out because they are desperately trying to make some sense of and maintain some control over a world that can seem out of control for a myriad of reasons, internal and external--anxieties, adhd, autism, food allergies, seizures, disrupted family life, excessive stress, the list goes on.

 

 There are overwhelmed kids, there are dysregulated kids, but there is no such thing as a bad kid.

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No kidding.

I went to school long, long ago...not Laura Ingalls-era, but my kids think it was. 

 

I observed maybe two fistfights in my entire elementary school time.  Oh, and one girl followed me home and threatened to beat me up...my brother came and put the fear of God into her.  That's it. 

What IS this with all the troubled kids today, hitting others, hurting people, throwing things?  What the heck? 

I witnessed more than that BUT things that were different back then...inclusion was only partial.  THe spec ed kids were still mostly in their own classroom with only combining for things like PE and art or music.  The teachers/principal still used the strap as punishment for fighting.  SUspensions were given out and parents were expected to ensure the child did the assigned work during the suspension.  I had to copy page 200 of the dictionary so much in grade 6 (our teacher's form of punishment) you would think I would have it memorized (and I was a good kid over all). Expulsion from school was an option.  Retention in a grade was an option.  Now everyone gets socially promoted to protect their self esteem.  These days a bad grade or discipline report from school sends the parents running there to question the teacher's ability to run a classroom rather than turning to the child to smarten up.  

 

Many families still had 1 parent home and if they didn't the neighbors on either side were home, and not only that, but if you were caught being a brat down the block that person that caught you would tell you off and then call your folks to tell them.  ANd your parents would thank them and punish you.  THese days everyone is told to mind their own business, and if you tell someone else's kid not to do something that parents is more likely to yell at you than to thank you.  Parents are pulled too thin these days, cost of living dictates they need to work multiple jobs to make ends meet, the battle to get into college means you spend far too much time shuttling kids around to activities rather than just being together as a family.  

 

Broken home, bad food (as in GMO not just fast food), lack of sleep, lack of physical activity, lack of responsibility (kids coddled right into adulthood where as it used to be you tended the chores, watched younger siblings, had jobs young etc- heck the laws prevent kids from even doing paper routes in their own names before age 12 here).  Kids are lacking in the important areas and have an abundance of nonessentials and that lack of essentials leads to more behavioural issues, can trigger mood disorders etc.  I believe the increase in processed foods, chemicals around us etc during pregnancy is leading to the increase in learning issue, disabilities and mental health disorders we are seeing in today's children.  That prenatal exposure to those things combined with the triggers they face in today's world is why it seems to be a more common occurrence compared to years ago.

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I don't care about the milk, I care about the fit of anger (hmmm, maybe that is why I bolded that).  Kids who are acting in fits of anger need to be very closely monitored.  If that child also "always" hits, pushes and scratches, then I do not feel he is being monitored carefully enough to be in close contact with other children.

 

Wendy

 

See, the fit of anger doesn't bother me - in fact I would be more concerned about a child who did this and wasn't in a fit of anger.  When did we start expecting small children to be so passive that they never get angry and never act out of anger?  For 6+ hours/day no less.  Because I don't know many 5 and 6 year olds that are that in control of their anger.  Yes of course if the child is doing "all the time"  it is a problem that needs resolution.  And yes, if the child is hitting too, then action right away.   But there is nothing in the post to say this same child is hitting or doing other things besides purposefully acting to get the teacher's goat in one moment of anger.   

 

It seems as if some of us are reading this as all done by just a few children in one class - there is nothing in the post to say how many children she is talking about or over how many years.   If this is a compilation of years of teaching and incidents -then it doesn't sound so violence filled to me.  I would expect a teacher to build up a repertoire of such stories.  Only 1 child/year would build up such a repertoire pretty darn fast - even if that child only had a couple of incidents all year.

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Yes of course if the child is doing "all the time"  it is a problem that needs resolution.  And yes, if the child is hitting too, then action right away.   But there is nothing in the post to say this same child is hitting or doing other things besides purposefully acting to get the teacher's goat in one moment of anger.   

 

It seems as if some of us are reading this as all done by just a few children in one class - there is nothing in the post to say how many children she is talking about or over how many years.   If this is a compilation of years of teaching and incidents -then it doesn't sound so violence filled to me.  I would expect a teacher to build up a repertoire of such stories.  Only 1 child/year would build up such a repertoire pretty darn fast - even if that child only had a couple of incidents all year.

 

The teacher calls the child THAT child and we all know what she means because we have all known THAT child.  THAT child did not become THAT child because of an isolated incident.  THAT child did not become THAT child because one time he lost his temper and dumped some milk.  THAT child did not become THAT child until he had built up a reputation of tantrums and disruptions and violence.  Just like the title of the article "THAT kid (the one who hits, disrupts and influences YOUR kid)" not hits, disrupts OR influences.  No, THAT kids does it all.

 

The article makes no sense if you apply it to kids who make one or two bad choices.  Those kids do not cause the teacher's phone to ring off the hook with parents who want to know what is going on.

 

The author makes it very clear who she is talking about in the first few sentences:

"I know. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried. Every day, your child comes home with a story about THAT kid. The one who is always hitting, shoving, pinching, scratching, maybe even biting other children."

 

Every day.  Always.  I agree with you, "it is a problem that needs resolution".

 

Wendy

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I witnessed more than that BUT things that were different back then...inclusion was only partial.  THe spec ed kids were still mostly in their own classroom with only combining for things like PE and art or music.  The teachers/principal still used the strap as punishment for fighting.  SUspensions were given out and parents were expected to ensure the child did the assigned work during the suspension.  I had to copy page 200 of the dictionary so much in grade 6 (our teacher's form of punishment) you would think I would have it memorized (and I was a good kid over all). Expulsion from school was an option.  Retention in a grade was an option.  Now everyone gets socially promoted to protect their self esteem.  These days a bad grade or discipline report from school sends the parents running there to question the teacher's ability to run a classroom rather than turning to the child to smarten up.  

 

Many families still had 1 parent home and if they didn't the neighbors on either side were home, and not only that, but if you were caught being a brat down the block that person that caught you would tell you off and then call your folks to tell them.  ANd your parents would thank them and punish you.  THese days everyone is told to mind their own business, and if you tell someone else's kid not to do something that parents is more likely to yell at you than to thank you.  Parents are pulled too thin these days, cost of living dictates they need to work multiple jobs to make ends meet, the battle to get into college means you spend far too much time shuttling kids around to activities rather than just being together as a family.  

 

Broken home, bad food (as in GMO not just fast food), lack of sleep, lack of physical activity, lack of responsibility (kids coddled right into adulthood where as it used to be you tended the chores, watched younger siblings, had jobs young etc- heck the laws prevent kids from even doing paper routes in their own names before age 12 here).  Kids are lacking in the important areas and have an abundance of nonessentials and that lack of essentials leads to more behavioural issues, can trigger mood disorders etc.  I believe the increase in processed foods, chemicals around us etc during pregnancy is leading to the increase in learning issue, disabilities and mental health disorders we are seeing in today's children.  That prenatal exposure to those things combined with the triggers they face in today's world is why it seems to be a more common occurrence compared to years ago.

Parents need to fix the stuff they can, not just shuffle the responsiblity off onto others.   So many (not all) of these problems in your last paragraph stem from divorce, or the lack of a father in the home.  So many of the others are the fault of corporations (chemicals in the food).  That needs to be addressed too, with serious financial repercussions for those who insist on pushing that crap. 

 

I had that conversation at a hospital. The ombudsman made the mistake of asking me what was wrong with my hospital experience in particular.  Well, the crap, non-food was wrong.  It is illogical to give that garbage to people who are trying to HEAL their damaged or broken bodies, was the gist of my long response.  She looked at me like I have three heads. 

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The teacher calls the child THAT child and we all know what she means because we have all known THAT child.  THAT child did not become THAT child because of an isolated incident.  THAT child did not become THAT child because one time he lost his temper and dumped some milk.  THAT child did not become THAT child until he had built up a reputation of tantrums and disruptions and violence.  Just like the title of the article "THAT kid (the one who hits, disrupts and influences YOUR kid)" not hits, disrupts OR influences.  No, THAT kids does it all.

 

The article makes no sense if you apply it to kids who make one or two bad choices.  Those kids do not cause the teacher's phone to ring off the hook with parents who want to know what is going on.

 

The author makes it very clear who she is talking about in the first few sentences:

"I know. YouĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re worried. Every day, your child comes home with a story about THAT kid. The one who is always hitting, shoving, pinching, scratching, maybe even biting other children."

 

Every day.  Always.  I agree with you, "it is a problem that needs resolution".

 

Wendy

This cannot happen.  I don't care about the setting.  Absolutely not.  (bolding mine). 

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The teacher calls the child THAT child and we all know what she means because we have all known THAT child.  THAT child did not become THAT child because of an isolated incident.  THAT child did not become THAT child because one time he lost his temper and dumped some milk.  THAT child did not become THAT child until he had built up a reputation of tantrums and disruptions and violence.  Just like the title of the article "THAT kid (the one who hits, disrupts and influences YOUR kid)" not hits, disrupts OR influences.  No, THAT kids does it all.

I think this goes back to different school types - because at my local school my interpretation makes sense.  Where THAT kid doesnt' have to do it all to be labeled.... heck, THAT kid probably was already 'pegged' as THAT kid by gossip before any actual physical incident even took place.

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