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Anyone watch the webinar on teaching writing to dyslexics?


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It is probably the best, explicit writing seminar on dyslexia that I've ever seen. I think Dr. Haynes was interviewed in Dyslexic Advantage also because I read that section over and over trying to adapt writing instruction and it just wasn't specific enough in the book for me to wrap my brain around it. The webinar was awesome because it went through each topic and showed scaffolded techniques by age, including templates. So far today I've already incorporated four of the techniques and they all went well.

 

Dr. Haynes describes 4 areas of writing/language work for dyslexics:

 

Words

Sentences

Micro-Discourse

Paragraphs and Essays

 

Then he breaks each down giving specific exercises to build up all four areas. We worked on all 4 areas this morning using some of the techniques. All instruction starts visual and then goes to verbal, which is particularly effective for dyslexics. Both organization and writing style are addressed by this approach through the exercises.

 

Our previous writing work was strong on organization, but I didn't have a lot of ideas for how to help ds with style, sentence construction, or word choice when he gets stuck because of the dyslexia. This webinar gave me tons of ideas through direct instruction for how to help him unstick. I think it also helped me to realize that ds isn't purposely struggling. He has to be taught this info WAY more explicitly than I realized because of his dyslexia and I just didn't know how to break it down to that level because I do most of these techniques naturally and don't even think about them. Dr. Haynes also emphasizes the importance of vocabulary, which I have been pondering lately anyway as one of the key reasons my boys are progressing in lit this year.

 

I'm super excited to continue working with this style of writing instruction. I think it will work really well for my boys.

 

 

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By going to visual to verbal, I mean that the vocabulary instruction starts with a picture/painting, asks for word retrieval of words known in the painting, has the teacher work thematically to pull out new noun & verb vocabulary words from the *picture* and then uses mind-mapping visually with those new words to connect their usage to known vocabulary (and answers some questions about meaning).

 

Sentence building similarly starts with a picture, gives an example sentence, and asks students to build an original fact sentence from the picture.

 

Paragraph building starts with personal narratives, which draw on the strong sense memories/narratives that dyslexics have as a strength, and works on sequencing first in pictures, then orally, and finally in writing.

 

The structure plays to dyslexic strengths and moves sequentially like the dyslexic brain, IMHO. Even if you don't have time to watch the whole webinar, I think it is worth downloading the slides and templates.

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We used scaffolded materials from Landmark for a while. I have some vague recollection of watching something about it, but I don't know if it was the webinar you referred to. I bought the Landmark teaching manuals. As I recall, this scaffolded approach was rather teacher intense in terms of preparation. Maybe "intense" is too strong a word, but it's certainly not "open and go."

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We used scaffolded materials from Landmark for a while. I have some vague recollection of watching something about it, but I don't know if it was the webinar you referred to. I bought the Landmark teaching manuals. As I recall, this scaffolded approach was rather teacher intense in terms of preparation. Maybe "intense" is too strong a word, but it certainly not "open and go."

 

I would agree with that. However, virtually everything we do is teacher intense, so at least for me, a teacher intensive program that works is better than a similarly teacher intensive program that doesn't, lol. I don't think there is anyway to get around teacher intensive for teaching my dyslexic boys to read and write. It is either me putting in the time and effort or a tutor doing the same.

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I would agree with that. However, virtually everything we do is teacher intense, so at least for me, a teacher intensive program that works is better than a similarly teacher intensive program that doesn't, lol. I don't think there is anyway to get around teacher intensive for teaching my dyslexic boys to read and write. It is either me putting in the time and effort or a tutor doing the same.

 

True. I think I was disappointed because I wasn't the fantastic writing teacher for dyslexics like the one writing the book. It's exhausting trying to teach writing, especially when spelling mistakes displayed in his writing discourage me.  That may be what gets to me most--seeing those spelling mistakes in his writing after we've worked so very, very hard on spelling.  But setting spelling aside, his writing progressed the year we used those Landmark materials, and his writing continues to progress, (even though it's nowhere near where I'd like it to be.)  Writing is one of those areas that's been hard, hard, HARD to remediate. He's reading above grade level now and he generally writes in complete sentences and can even write paragraphs, but as he grows, my expectations for his writing continue to grow.

 

Thank you for mentioning tutors. I have never given any thought to a writing tutor.  It would likely be expensive, just as schools for dyslexic students like the Landmark School are very expensive.  We are just about to wrap up another writing program---and I'd planned to revisit what we learned throughout writing his other coursework. Now I'm inspired to pull out those teaching manuals from Landmark once again, (which I recently ran into while looking on my bookshelves.)  I'm going to see what those outstanding writing teachers for dyslexics have to say at this stage of my son's progress. If I think of it in terms of how much money we're saving on private school for dyslexia and private tutors, I feel better about attempting it myself

 

Some days I still wonder if my son's struggles due to his dyslexia are really because I'm not a good enough teacher. Mommy guilt go away!

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True. I think I was disappointed because I wasn't the fantastic writing teacher for dyslexics like the one writing the book. It's exhausting trying to teach writing, especially when spelling mistakes displayed in his writing discourage me.  That may be what gets to me most--seeing those spelling mistakes in his writing after we've worked so very, very hard on spelling.  But setting spelling aside, his writing progressed the year we used those Landmark materials, and his writing continues to progress, (even though it's nowhere near where I'd like it to be.)  Writing is one of those areas that's been hard, hard, HARD to remediate. He's reading above grade level now and he generally writes in complete sentences and can even write paragraphs, but as he grows, my expectations for his writing continue to grow.

 

Thank you for mentioning tutors. I have never given any thought to a writing tutor.  It would likely be expensive, just as schools for dyslexic students like the Landmark School are very expensive.  We are just about to wrap up another writing program---and I'd planned to revisit what we learned throughout writing his other coursework. Now I'm inspired to pull out those teaching manuals from Landmark once again, (which I recently ran into while looking on my bookshelves.)  I'm going to see what those outstanding writing teachers for dyslexics have to say at this stage of my son's progress. If I think of it in terms of how much money we're saving on private school for dyslexia and private tutors, I feel better about attempting it myself

 

Some days I still wonder if my son's struggles due to his dyslexia are really because I'm not a good enough teacher. Mommy guilt go away!

Hugs.

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Thanks One Step. I didn't mean to turn your thread into my personal pity-party, but it is hard.

 

Now back to scaffolding..

I pulled out my Landmark teacher manuals "From Talking to Writing" and "Thinking about Language". Jackpot! They had some suggested scaffolds that fit just about perfectly with my son's writing assignment from Excellence in Writing this week. This EIW level was recommended by Susan Barton--and it has been helpful, but the additional scaffold from Landmark looks like a good supplement to it because I think he could benefit from the additional support.

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Thanks One Step. I didn't mean to turn your thread into my personal pity-party, but it is hard.

 

Now back to scaffolding..

I pulled out my Landmark teacher manuals "From Talking to Writing" and "Thinking about Language". Jackpot! They had some suggested scaffolds that fit just about perfectly with my son's writing assignment from Excellence in Writing this week. This EIW level was recommended by Susan Barton--and it has been helpful, but the additional scaffold from Landmark looks like a good supplement to it because I think he could benefit from the additional support.

 

This is how I plan on using the Landmark strategies too - as supplemental scaffolding work for Verticy. Verticy will provide the prompts and assignments and the word/sentence work from Landmark will add the style and language specific work. We'll see how it goes but yes, it will definitely take a bit of teacher prep work.

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Thanks One Step. I didn't mean to turn your thread into my personal pity-party, but it is hard.

 

Now back to scaffolding..

I pulled out my Landmark teacher manuals "From Talking to Writing" and "Thinking about Language". Jackpot! They had some suggested scaffolds that fit just about perfectly with my son's writing assignment from Excellence in Writing this week. This EIW level was recommended by Susan Barton--and it has been helpful, but the additional scaffold from Landmark looks like a good supplement to it because I think he could benefit from the additional support.

If you don't mind me asking, which EIW book are you using, how old is your son and how does one get Landmark supplements?

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Thanks One Step. I didn't mean to turn your thread into my personal pity-party, but it is hard.

 

Now back to scaffolding..

I pulled out my Landmark teacher manuals "From Talking to Writing" and "Thinking about Language". Jackpot! They had some suggested scaffolds that fit just about perfectly with my son's writing assignment from Excellence in Writing this week. This EIW level was recommended by Susan Barton--and it has been helpful, but the additional scaffold from Landmark looks like a good supplement to it because I think he could benefit from the additional support.

You didn't.  And it is actually FPs thread not mine but I doubt she minds, either, since we all have had tough days.  :)

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If you don't mind me asking, which EIW book are you using, how old is your son and how does one get Landmark supplements?

 

My son is 13. We're calling this year "eighth grade". We're using level B Teaching Writing Structure and Style. (Susan Barton said level A or B, the EIW person I spoke with at a homeschool conference suggested B, so that's what I went with.)

 

The Landmark books I bought directly from the Landmark School Outreach Program. You can click on "publications" on their website and then "books".  landmarkoutreach.org

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Are you sure it is EIW (excellent in writing)?  I think you really mean IEW? based on the Level labels.  EIW is labeled grade based.  I did not have any luck with IEW with my oldest student and never even tried with my second dyslexic student.  She did do a level of EIW her senior year and a hodge podge of stuff over the years - a lot of creative writing and journal writing and this year as a Freshman in college, she had a perfect score on her placement tests (very few achieve this score) and has a high A in her English course.  I truly never thought she'd struggle but she is doing beautifully.  Now, my oldest kiddo, had to take a remedial course at CC but passed through it the first time (apparently there is a high rate of repeats) and then went on to achieve a high B in his English classes (this from the child with dyslexia and a very severe hearing impairment).  He shared with me that I had been doing everything to help him but until it was important to him it just didn't matter.  Teaching these kids takes the patience of Job most days and whole lot of grace and big does of hope - but they do succeed!

 

I'm actually using a little known program called the Write Foundation for my third dyslexic student and he's doing great.  Lots of repetitive learning (reminds me of MathUSee) and that has aided in successful retention.  Each one of these learners just never fit in the one size fits all box.  There are some days that I sure wish they did because then we, the moms, would know just what to do and be assured success once we reach the end of the road. 

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Are you sure it is EIW (excellent in writing)?  I think you really mean IEW? based on the Level labels.  EIW is labeled grade based.  I did not have any luck with IEW with my oldest student and never even tried with my second dyslexic student.  She did do a level of EIW her senior year and a hodge podge of stuff over the years - a lot of creative writing and journal writing and this year as a Freshman in college, she had a perfect score on her placement tests (very few achieve this score) and has a high A in her English course.  I truly never thought she'd struggle but she is doing beautifully.  Now, my oldest kiddo, had to take a remedial course at CC but passed through it the first time (apparently there is a high rate of repeats) and then went on to achieve a high B in his English classes (this from the child with dyslexia and a very severe hearing impairment).  He shared with me that I had been doing everything to help him but until it was important to him it just didn't matter.  Teaching these kids takes the patience of Job most days and whole lot of grace and big does of hope - but they do succeed!

 

I'm actually using a little known program called the Write Foundation for my third dyslexic student and he's doing great.  Lots of repetitive learning (reminds me of MathUSee) and that has aided in successful retention.  Each one of these learners just never fit in the one size fits all box.  There are some days that I sure wish they did because then we, the moms, would know just what to do and be assured success once we reach the end of the road. 

Goodness what a true statement!  It is the lack of a clearly laid path with some solid guarantee included that makes life VERY interesting....maybe more interesting than I would wish for on some days, KWIM?  :laugh:

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Are you sure it is EIW (excellent in writing)?  I think you really mean IEW? based on the Level labels.  ...

:001_unsure: What we are using is from the Institute of Excellence in Writing by Andrew Pudewa. I thought that EIW stood for Excellence in Writing with the "Institute" part just left off. But now that you mentioned it, I looked and have seen the same program called both IEW or EIW.  What EIW were you referring to?  I'm confused now.  

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EIW and IEW are actually two different programs, as I understand it.  As I have seen it referred to on the boards, EIW is Essentials in Writing and IEW is Institute for Excellence in Writing.

 

http://www.essentialsinwriting.com/?utm_expid=92121813-0.JddCp_m4R6-Cd_sCsEAw5A.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

http://iew.com/

 

But maybe someone with more knowledge can clarify....

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My son is 13. We're calling this year "eighth grade". We're using level B Teaching Writing Structure and Style. (Susan Barton said level A or B, the EIW person I spoke with at a homeschool conference suggested B, so that's what I went with.)

 

The Landmark books I bought directly from the Landmark School Outreach Program. You can click on "publications" on their website and then "books".  landmarkoutreach.org

 

Fwiw, the Landmark From Talking to Writing title is scheduled to be released as a 2nd updated edition in winter 2015, so if you are wanting to get that one it may be best to wait.

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True. I think I was disappointed because I wasn't the fantastic writing teacher for dyslexics like the one writing the book. It's exhausting trying to teach writing, especially when spelling mistakes displayed in his writing discourage me. That may be what gets to me most--seeing those spelling mistakes in his writing after we've worked so very, very hard on spelling. But setting spelling aside, his writing progressed the year we used those Landmark materials, and his writing continues to progress, (even though it's nowhere near where I'd like it to be.) Writing is one of those areas that's been hard, hard, HARD to remediate. He's reading above grade level now and he generally writes in complete sentences and can even write paragraphs, but as he grows, my expectations for his writing continue to grow.

 

Thank you for mentioning tutors. I have never given any thought to a writing tutor. It would likely be expensive, just as schools for dyslexic students like the Landmark School are very expensive. We are just about to wrap up another writing program---and I'd planned to revisit what we learned throughout writing his other coursework. Now I'm inspired to pull out those teaching manuals from Landmark once again, (which I recently ran into while looking on my bookshelves.) I'm going to see what those outstanding writing teachers for dyslexics have to say at this stage of my son's progress. If I think of it in terms of how much money we're saving on private school for dyslexia and private tutors, I feel better about attempting it myself

 

Some days I still wonder if my son's struggles due to his dyslexia are really because I'm not a good enough teacher. Mommy guilt go away!

I'm right there with you, Merry. I have come to hate teaching writing, but my daughter (17 yo) still struggles with it, so we keep plugging away. I have had many experienced teachers I know and evaluators she has had tell me that she is doing so much better being homeschooled than going to a traditional school. My area is really not that great for kids with learning disabilities and she would never get the level of instruction she has nor the amount of one-on-one I've been able to give. She is a very confident young lady who works hard. Given her personality, I don't think that would be the case if she had gone to school and had to struggle there. So we keep plugging away, but there have been many days I want to quit. You're doing a great thing for your son!

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Thoughts?

 

Does anyone teach writing using sentence hierarchies and detail circles?

 

Thank-you for linking the excellent lecture. I purchased From Talking to Writing after reading the Dyslexic Advantage but could never make sense of the material. Now that I have watched the lecture, I can see where chapters five and six will be very helpful for ensuring that DS has mastered writing sentence patterns and teaching specific strategies for building paragraph types. All of the paragraph writing frameworks are provided in Appendix B.

 

After viewing the lecture, I like the idea of using thematic vocabulary and concepts. When DS was 4th grade, he started mapping vocabulary. Around 3rd grade was the year DS started using freerice.com for vocab practice. DS started using a thesaurus in the 7th grade.   

 

I took notes and wanted to point out that a game like hangman might help to link sound and meaning. As to seeing patterns in words, my local dysexia school recommends a morphology study after reading remediation is completed. The LOE website specifically recommends two morphology programs, but we used English from the Roots Up cards and Vocabulary from Classical Roots.  

 

The detail circle looks awesome. Your boys will get plenty of writing mileage by mastering points one through three of the detail circle. Co-write and scribe for them.  Maybe, cook a circle up in Power Point and laminate it.  You could even make a poster board and hang it in plain sight for the boys to use.  

 

Overall, that is a great lecture.  In some ways, the methods remind me of a thematic level A, IEW class though the execution and emphasis are different.  

 

ETA:  If someone familiar with Bravewriter watches it, maybe they could compare the sentence elaboration writing stratgies to Bravewriter.  It would be nice to have one writing program that would include all these concepts.

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We've been working on sentence patterns this week. It was very interesting to me that while both boys could write complete sentences fairly easily, they really struggled to write sentences that followed the correct pattern. Which to me means that they still are not chunking and processing language in writing correctly. Older ds has really latched onto the personal narrative formula and transitions too which is helping him to complete his Verticy assignments more easily. We are going to work with the detail circle and editing more later this week. I can see this as the framework though that both boys need.

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Thank-you for linking the excellent lecture. I purchased From Talking to Writing after reading the Dyslexic Advantage but could never make sense of the material. Now that I have watched the lecture, I can see where chapters five and six will be very helpful for ensuring that DS has mastered writing sentence patterns and teaching specific strategies for building paragraph types. All of the paragraph writing frameworks are provided in Appendix B.

 

After viewing the lecture, I like the idea of using thematic vocabulary and concepts. When DS was 4th grade, he started mapping vocabulary. Around 3rd grade was the year DS started using freerice.com for vocab practice. DS started using a thesaurus in the 7th grade.   

 

I took notes and wanted to point out that a game like hangman might help to link sound and meaning. As to seeing patterns in words, my local dysexia school recommends a morphology study after reading remediation is completed. The LOE website specifically recommends two morphology programs, but we used English from the Roots Up cards and Vocabulary from Classical Roots.  

 

The detail circle looks awesome. Your boys will get plenty of writing mileage by mastering points one through three of the detail circle. Co-write and scribe for them.  Maybe, cook a circle up in Power Point and laminate it.  You could even make a poster board and hang it in plain sight for the boys to use.  

 

Overall, that is a great lecture.  In some ways, the methods remind me of a thematic level A, IEW class though the execution and emphasis are different.  

 

ETA:  If someone familiar with Bravewriter watches it, maybe they could compare the sentence elaboration writing stratgies to Bravewriter.  It would be nice to have one writing program that would include all these concepts.

Thanks Heather for explaining all that!  Y'all just sort it all out, work out the kinks, and then when you've got it all figured out you can enlighten me!   :lol: Happily, we're just enough behind you all, I think we're just going to focus on oral language expression for a few years and let that build a foundation.  But I think this whole concept, like with the Landmark book in Talking to Writing, is right on and fabulous.  It just makes sense to me that you're not going to get out of them written (the most complicated way) what isn't already happening orally.  So anything we can do to work on expressive language skills ORALLY is super super valuable foundation.  That's what I'm going to be looking for to make sure we're doing well.  I've got some games and ideas but need to step it up.  That's why I got the Bravewriter Jot it Down, because to me it's in that vein of building the oral to create the foundation for the written.  But I haven't tried it yet.  As y'all are finding, it may be crunchy.  We may need to do some webs or maps or word retrieval work to get it all organized in his brain and READY to do the JiD/BW tasks.

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Thanks Heather for explaining all that!  Y'all just sort it all out, work out the kinks, and then when you've got it all figured out you can enlighten me!   :lol: Happily, we're just enough behind you all, I think we're just going to focus on oral language expression for a few years and let that build a foundation.  But I think this whole concept, like with the Landmark book in Talking to Writing, is right on and fabulous.  It just makes sense to me that you're not going to get out of them written (the most complicated way) what isn't already happening orally.  So anything we can do to work on expressive language skills ORALLY is super super valuable foundation.  That's what I'm going to be looking for to make sure we're doing well.  I've got some games and ideas but need to step it up.  That's why I got the Bravewriter Jot it Down, because to me it's in that vein of building the oral to create the foundation for the written.  But I haven't tried it yet.  As y'all are finding, it may be crunchy.  We may need to do some webs or maps or word retrieval work to get it all organized in his brain and READY to do the JiD/BW tasks.

DS still benefits from talking through his sentences prior to writing.  I have to make him stop typing to think through what he wants to say.   Even though DS can type, I am thinking that we are going to revert back to Dragon and see how that goes.  

 

I just want to state that a slow and steady year of Winston really taught the parts of speech and word function.

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Thanks Heather for explaining all that!  Y'all just sort it all out, work out the kinks, and then when you've got it all figured out you can enlighten me!   :lol: Happily, we're just enough behind you all, I think we're just going to focus on oral language expression for a few years and let that build a foundation.  But I think this whole concept, like with the Landmark book in Talking to Writing, is right on and fabulous.  It just makes sense to me that you're not going to get out of them written (the most complicated way) what isn't already happening orally.  So anything we can do to work on expressive language skills ORALLY is super super valuable foundation.  That's what I'm going to be looking for to make sure we're doing well.  I've got some games and ideas but need to step it up.  That's why I got the Bravewriter Jot it Down, because to me it's in that vein of building the oral to create the foundation for the written.  But I haven't tried it yet.  As y'all are finding, it may be crunchy.  We may need to do some webs or maps or word retrieval work to get it all organized in his brain and READY to do the JiD/BW tasks.

 

Working orally doesn't really make a difference for us. Ds can't get out his thoughts easily either way due to processing speed or language issues of putting words together or something. That is why we are having to do focused work on the word and sentence level with imagery first.

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These are the kinds of things where I wish the research had teased out the differences -- DD does far better orally.  Add writing and she loses much of the expression she has verbally and almost all of her ability to edit on the fly  --- but there are still things she cannot do orally either such as mimic the pattern of a sentence.   The gain I see from oral comes solely from allowing her to say her original thoughts on the subject she is going to write about - saying out loud what she plans to write down on the topic at hand.  Adding any language based restriction  such as use this word, match this phrasing, define this and it is as if I am talking to a whole different child. 

 

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These are the kinds of things where I wish the research had teased out the differences -- DD does far better orally.  Add writing and she loses much of the expression she has verbally and almost all of her ability to edit on the fly  --- but there are still things she cannot do orally either such as mimic the pattern of a sentence.   The gain I see from oral comes solely from allowing her to say her original thoughts on the subject she is going to write about - saying out loud what she plans to write down on the topic at hand.  Adding any language based restriction  such as use this word, match this phrasing, define this and it is as if I am talking to a whole different child. 

 

Ok, I should probably qualify. Ds 1 can get out his thoughts orally if he has a visual or 3D project to ground his thoughts. He just thinks almost exclusively in images and has a very difficult time transferring those image thoughts to words. Ds 2 may be different. He has a crazy strong verbal profile and his difficulties are more encoding & decoding and not so much language processing. Ds 2 orally can do almost anything I ask of him (but he can't type it out or write it out).

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Working orally doesn't really make a difference for us. Ds can't get out his thoughts easily either way due to processing speed or language issues of putting words together or something. That is why we are having to do focused work on the word and sentence level with imagery first.

My dd's word retrieval is wicked low and of course her processing speed is low, both despite not getting a dyslexia label.  Anyways, what helped her, or rather what we were doing at the time when we finally got breakthroughs, was digit span stuff with metronome work.  I just think there's so much working memory necessary to retrieve and get anything out.  With the metronome work, we were motor planning and talking and dealing with distractions and harnessing our EF and...  It was sort of all the skills of writing only while doing something else.  

 

I've had ds doing metronome work along with our rapid naming exercises and S'cool Moves/Focus Moves posters where it makes sense to bring it in.  TODAY was the first day where he ever did anything that actually resembled keeping time/rhythm as he did the exercises.  I was actually amazed.  We've been working on rhythm (clap to a chant, clap to a beat, just clap without going spastic) for MONTHS.  For the past 5-6 weeks of our diligent work we've been doing things 2-3 times a day with the metronome.  Now he can do something simple like read the color dots with the metronome.   :svengo: I was amazed!

 

Anyways, the OT our SLP uses feels (and the SLP agrees) that working on midline and OT stuff can help with language issues.  When I researched on it a bit, it looks like basically as you work on midline stuff the brain decides where to store the language, which results (of course) in better retrieval.  So our SLP finds that *OT* can boost expressive language.

 

You've probably already done OT.  I figured we had nothing to lose by trying.  This one program especially (SM/FM) is the super deal at only $10 and I've milked weeks and weeks of benefit out of it.  I have no clue what it will do for him in the long run, but it's amazing to see him get better at the tasks.  Today we were working on R/L with hand slapping charts.  It's just rich stuff!

 

Hmm, I hadn't thought about whether ds is thinking in pictures.  Dd does since her VT.  I really don't know.  He's clearly very spatial, given how much he's constantly building, how things transpose in his mind, etc.  I definitely can see where that would connect to the expressive language issues.  I don't even expect ds to get anything into print for a long time.  That was another reason I liked JiD and bought it, because I wanted to tell myself to stay in that mode.  There seems, in general, to be enough of an EF delay that these kids typically seem to be behind on structured writing several years.  My dd, for instance, did WWS1 very profitably in 8th and couldn't really have done it before.  Very bright IQ, but just that delayed EF was showing up.  I see it happening SO much.  I really think it's reasonable to spit on traditional writing sequences that push essays, blah blah, and work on ANY form of expressive writing that engages them.  As you're finding, the main thing is can they even get out their thoughts (in complete sentences, with clarity, voice, and precision).  I think when that adolescent maturity kicks in and the EF matures, you have more to work with on the structure side.  I don't know, just trying to console you that that can be a good course if it crosses your mind.  Total rabbit trail.  You may disagree.  :)  

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...  There seems, in general, to be enough of an EF delay that these kids typically seem to be behind on structured writing several years.  My dd, for instance, did WWS1 very profitably in 8th and couldn't really have done it before.  Very bright IQ, but just that delayed EF was showing up.  I see it happening SO much.  I really think it's reasonable to spit on traditional writing sequences that push essays, blah blah, and work on ANY form of expressive writing that engages them.  As you're finding, the main thing is can they even get out their thoughts (in complete sentences, with clarity, voice, and precision).  I think when that adolescent maturity kicks in and the EF matures, you have more to work with on the structure side.  I don't know, just trying to console you that that can be a good course if it crosses your mind.  Total rabbit trail.  You may disagree.   :)  

 

I like that rabbit trail.  And I like your permission to "spit on traditional writing sequences that push essays, blah blah" in favor of working on any form of expressive writing.

 

One ds attends a private college prep school and the level of writing that's expected pushes the ability of an average high school student without language processing problems.  They no longer teach writing--they simply expect the students to be able to write and write well.  I've been beating myself up for not having prepared him adequately for this high school--while simultaneously realizing that the teachers at this school have little understanding of language processing problems. We weren't working on essays in his 8th grade year at home--we worked with other forms of writing. For a recent assignment, he wrote something that read like a story for history. We here on the WTM who've read SOTW know the type. ;)  His writing was pretty good. But the assignment wasn't for a story--it was suppose to be a research paper with all the supportive quotes, blah, blah, blah. It's frustrating that he couldn't do all that "blah blah" without a lot of help from me.

 

I appreciate your consolation and your rabbit trail.

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I like that rabbit trail.  And I like your permission to "spit on traditional writing sequences that push essays, blah blah" in favor of working on any form of expressive writing.

 

One ds attends a private college prep school and the level of writing that's expected pushes the ability of an average high school student without language processing problems.  They no longer teach writing--they simply expect the students to be able to write and write well.  I've been beating myself up for not having prepared him adequately for this high school--while simultaneously realizing that the teachers at this school have little understanding of language processing problems. We weren't working on essays in his 8th grade year at home--we worked with other forms of writing. For a recent assignment, he wrote something that read like a story for history. We here on the WTM who've read SOTW know the type. ;)  His writing was pretty good. But the assignment wasn't for a story--it was suppose to be a research paper with all the supportive quotes, blah, blah, blah. It's frustrating that he couldn't do all that "blah blah" without a lot of help from me.

 

I appreciate your consolation and your rabbit trail.

Co-writing and helps, which seem to drag on far beyond the NT norm, are to be expected.  By working alongside your DS and demonstrating the writing process with the "blah blah" stuff, you have modeled what he needs to know.  Your DS won't intuit that info on his own, so you gave him precisely what he needed.

 

DS is about to write a summary paragraph for a logic assignment.  My poor kid is being bombarded with new info.   

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Merry, I'll just say I correspond backchannel with someone who is a published author and literature professor, and she thinks people far too often are going for the longterm product goal without building a foundation of expressive language.  I think it's really ironic that we're talking about delays in expressive language, difficulty with expressive language, and then saying the only acceptable outcome (I say only loosely) is a traditional progression meant for NTs.  So hang whether our kids actually would have had STRENGTHS in writing through perspective, connections, etc.  No, the only thing to do is ram them forward into whatever their age peers are doing, even if it results in nasty writing with no engagement, no connection.

 

If he's super engaged with those SOTW narrations, that's awesome.  If he's narrating and there's no ownership and he's an older, bright, SN student, you could shake it up.  I was just reading some Eides articles someone posted on the WTM SN FB group and they were saying to use their GIFTS to work on their weaknesses.  Like if he's into tanks (or whatever he's into), he could narrate articles about tanks from war magazines.  Nothing says SOTW, which is the most dry, boring thing ever in our house, has some virtuous monopoly on narration.  

 

If he likes to invent, he could write connected with his inventions.  Take a photo, map the sequence in Kidspiration/Inspiration, retell what he did.  Explore paragraphs with other types of starters (asking a question, etc.).  Write background paragraphs.  Write about the cause/effect of his invention.  Write his inventor biography.  Make a spurious FB page for him as an inventor and select a gloriously creative name and post the pics of his stuff and let him write about them.  Any exercises from the Don't Forget to Write books could be shifted to apply to his area of engagement.  60% of dyslexics also have adhd.  Engagement matters.

 

The foundations of expressive language (ability to get your thoughts out, ability to sequence, etc.) are going to be the same whether the goal is fiction, non-fiction, engaging, or not.  So to take your time, build the foundation, and build it with things that INTEREST them is good.  You can outline things, but again outline things that ENGAGE him!  I used Muse magazine with my dd because the articles were short and very clear to outline, helping her see the structure.  That same publisher (Cricket) has history and science magazines.  You might be able to find something within reach.  Now I have her reading analyzing NYT editorials and essays.  

 

See, this is a total rabbit trail, but I think traditional curriculum tries to make linear/sequential a process that, for many of our kids, is actually going to be more of a spider web of connections and ideas.  I've always felt like their brains make MORE connections but they have trouble pulling those threads and getting it to become something linear that others can understand.  So I don't need to shove her into a simplistic linear pattern but to give her a way for all her connections to come out (by dumping them into an Inspiration mind map) and then hitting shizam and letting her see that in fact they ARE linear enough at that point that she can write something others will understand.

 

That's a total hold their hands process.  But I think it's worth it because I don't think an extreme linear approach is longterm sustainable for extremely bright SN/LC kids.  They don't think like that, so they're going to cast off extreme linear approaches as soon as they're free to.  You might win a short term war, but you lose the REAL battle which is to give them a sustainable approach that allows them to get out the complexity of their thoughts over the long haul.  They need to know how to use Inspiration to dump their thoughts, that they CAN get them organized in a way others will understand, etc.  

 

It seems like the challenge people are describing here is that their written compositions go to short choppy mess.  Obviously I haven't been there yet.  Dd is not considered to have a language processing issue, just EF.  I'm deeply concerned about what I'm seeing here and want to be on the ball about preparing ds.  But I go back to this thought that we're still talking expressive language. When we remove the physical difficulties (dysgraphia) and the structural and working memory issues (EF) with supports, we still have the expressive language problem.  Dd doesn't have that, but I can see where that's on the table with ds and dyslexics.  I've been trying to research a bit how you work on expressive language.  I know I have what this person has told me back channel, that you have to talk a lot, play games a lot that use language, etc.  I guess I'm up in the air on this whole sentence building thing.  I think they need to understand it, but SLPs don't build expressive language that way.  Or maybe they do and I don't realize it?  

 

I don't know, just what I'm thinking through.  The whole thing has been very thought provoking and overwhelming.  You know the other irony is that their GENDER is going to get them.  You have heard the story from Pudewa about girls in a writing class and boys, right?  The girls make all these beautiful, long flowing sentences with adjectives, and the boys use VERBS!   :lol:  My boy is young enough, I really don't have much room to comment on that, but it stuck with me when I first heard it.  I was teaching a co-op writing class at the time, and it seemed so true that there might be gender differences, that boys might be more focused on ACTION.  So I'm not sure it's necessary to develop the same type of writing in everyone, kwim?  I see that in online forums with anonymous posters, where the men are very obvious.  They just write differently.  So this idea that it's all androgenous and we should push every boy to write like a girl (the end effect) doesn't make sense to me.  It might be *part* of what we're seeing (not all, but part!) is gender and bent.  That's why I like this idea of focusing on voice and expressive language and ability to get your thoughts out in a sequence or some organization for ANY topic, any genre.  

 

Well enough of that.  I'm supposed to be sewing.  Take all that with a huge grain of salt, obviously, as I haven't done age 12 dyslexia yet.  But it seems to me foundation still works, they still have their EF and developmental patterns, and they still have gender/bent/voice.  It's not like all that goes away just because they have dyslexia.  

 

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Does From Talking to Writing have actual lessons on how to do some of the things in the lecture?  Like the Sentence hierarchies?  Or does it depend on the teacher to find material to address each point?

 

It does not have actual lessons.  It offers ideas of what lessons could look like and in what order material should be presented, plus it has some scaffolds to show what they mean by scaffolding, but there are no actual lessons per se. 

 

I don't remember if they allow their scaffolds for sentences and paragraphs, etc.to be reproduced by teachers under the copy write. I bought a separate book with those scaffolds.

 

Rather than considering it a curriculum, it's probably better described as a teacher training book.

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