Barton level 1 question (distracted DS)

[displace]

We're going through level 1.  I enjoy the laid out step by step process.  DS is bored I think.  It took a bit getting settled into HSing, as well as learning how to do the Barton system properly (touching tiles while sounding out stuff, using right hand to touch tiles, other various things).

 

Now we're doing ok in general with HSing and Barton.  But DS tends to forget the word we're doing, or says the word of a prior set.  I think he knows everything and can get it correct but it's hard for me to judge as IDK if he's struggling with the sounds or just not paying much attention.  When he does pay attention he does the system well.  But he frequently stops to talk about random things on his mind, gets easily distracted if younger DD interrupts, likes to keep his eyes closed while working ("I can do it with my eyes closed!"), playing with the limited tiles, etc.  He passed the screening hearing well and we're on lesson 2 currently (will finish today) comparing 3 sounds in 2 words and switching out the non-similar sound.  To make sure if he makes any mistakes in the initial lesson but I think it was because of poor attention, I'll just review the hardest extra practice.  He scored high in phonological testing during neuro and ed psych testing as well.  We work about 15 min or less in one sitting.

 

I guess my question is: if he makes any mistakes in the initial practice should I then do extra practice starting from easy to hardest?

Should I enforce extra practice if I think mistakes are due to poor attention? 

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Lecka]

NO -- don't punish him for poor attention.  If you think he knows it already -- just give him the hardest practice in the first place.  If he is nailing it -- he is nailing it. 

 

Otherwise -- I think you might mix in more different things between Barton tasks.  If you can pause for a funny moment, and then get back on track, then why not? 

 

If he will not come back to focus if you have stopped for a funny moment, then that is not quite the same. 

 

But you can mix it up a little by asking him to tell you a joke, or you can make a joke out of trying to do it with his eyes closed.  You can give the lesson with YOUR eyes closed.  You can be silly, too. 

 

I think you can be funny and also strict.  But you do not have to be strict in a "we are doing this in order, with no breaks or pauses, starting NOW" way.  You can be strict in a "you will do this question now" way. 

 

Look at it, and if he starts strong for some time, and then gets goofy, then shorten your time.  Say you are finished that session, and be goofy/active for a minute, then do another session.  It can work if he DOES focus for a certain time (however short to start ----- it will very likely build up over time) and if you can transition him back to work time and he can come back refreshed and ready to focus again.

 

Now ------ if that is not the pattern you are seeing, or you don't think that can work, then don't worry, you can find your own way.

 

But to me it sounds like ----- he is doing a lot right, focus on the positive, let him be a little silly while you are still in charge (make it be on your terms, twist it so that you think he is funny/silly and you are making him laugh ----- not that it is something he is doing that you don't like).  Shorten the time and end on saying "you are doing great." 

 

If you see a pattern that he starts to give the previous answer ---- okay, this is a thing sometimes, you can mix up your lesson by doing a different form of practice and then doing that form of practice -- you don't have to do 10 of the same kind of problem in a row, you can do an old problem from the previous lesson ---- see if that will break it up.  Maybe that can be all it takes.  If he is stuck and stuck -- I would mix it up more (by doing a review problem or different format) instead of the exact same kind of thing in a row.  But if he is not stuck and stuck ----- you can just, very neutrally, re-read the question, and he does it again ----- you don't have to give any reaction -- you can just neutrally repeat the direction.  It may be all he needs, it is probably the first thing to try.  Stay neutral, you don't want to add to him feeling nervous. 

 

For the funny part -- if he is a funny kid, then he may have had goofball moments at school with some other boys.  He is still a 6-year-old boy and will be goofy sometimes.  Now you are the little sister are his main audiences -- you need to be his audience sometime and think he is funny and appreciate him as a funny kid.

 

But also, if it is getting hard and he acts silly ----- then he is showing it is getting hard, or he is showing it is getting boring.  Respond by adjusting your instruction.  You can respond in a lot of ways -- mix up tasks, more movement breaks, wiggles, try going faster (faster can make it less boring), try going slower, try shorter sessions, try things like that. 

 

If he is doing this *all the time* then you are dealing with something that is not just about the Barton session.  If this is coming out in the Barton session ---- then it is on you to adjust how you are doing.  You can make it fun, make it pleasant for him, bring a major positive attitude and willingness to be pleased.  Bring a good snack.  Have a treat afterward for his hard work (call it hard work if it is anything at all decent ---- you start where you are and work to improve, you don't withhold things until he improves ---- it is more efficient). 

 

I don't think you have to go through a whole lesson if he is able to do the last, hardest questions, though.  If he really can do it already -- then he can do it already.  I could be wrong on that -- but it is what I think.  I also should say -- none of my kids have ADHD so I do not know about ADHD.  I know about attitudes resulting from things being hard, and trying to avoid hard things, and I know about getting stuck on previous answers also. 

 

For my younger son who has autism -- he does get stuck on previous answers, and he also will respond with the second choice in a choice.  It is common with autism (and also with other kids -- it is just, like, a very known thing with autism).  You can repeat the instruction and ignore the incorrect answer, that is option one.  You can repeat the instruction with a greater hint/prompt (if you can point, or whatever, or give the first sound of the answer, etc).  Or, you can change up the tasks so you are not doing the exact same format too many times in a row.  Sometimes kids are stuck on learning the format and not the material, or just on trying to give the right answer to do good, and the previous answer was good the last time.  Either way it is a sign of effort and wanting to do a good job, but the instruction needs to be changed in some way.   

 

Another thing -- as soon as you see him go off track, jump in and give him the smallest hint possible.  Maybe you say "try again" in a neutral way and give the instruction again.  Maybe you give him the answer (if you see he is struggling).  Maybe you start the answer and see is he can finish it.  Maybe you give the answer, then ask him the exact same question again.  It is a lot of experimenting. 

 

I also really like the Abecedarian error correction guide (I cannot link, but you can google it).  He is just talking about how you want to be like a good coach, who is being positive and when there are mistakes, corrects them in a way that leads to more learning.  It is more of an attitude than specifics, it might not translate to what you are doing in Barton specifically, but it is a good idea.  Like -- in little-kid soccer, when kids are struggling with a drill, the coach can adjust the drill, or add in something to make it more fun.  The coach doesn't have to just yell at the kids to do the drill.  Maybe the drill is too hard for them, or it is too long.  But if the overall goal is to practice a certain skill x number of times, there are a lot of ways to do that besides just going through the list. 

 

I think it does take getting creative -- it is more work than it seems like it *should* be, it seems like kids should just DO it already.  But they are probably doing the best they can, it is not as easy for them as we would like it to be. 

 

I am not like this for chores and things I know *can* be done if I say "DO IT NOW OR ELSE."  I still have choices besides "do it now or else."  I have other strategies I can use, etc.  But it is an option for some things, in a way it is not for one-on-one tutoring, b/c in one-on-one tutoring the child may be having a lot harder time.  But it does not do any good to get a child who starts shutting down, or who starts doing a lot of avoidant things like joking (joking is not always avoidant, but it can be avoidant -- I think, try to take the power of it away by channeling it for you instead of against you), etc.  If you can start small and build up -- it may go a lot better.  If he starts good and starts to lose steam, and you drag it out, you can actually decrease how long he does well the next session, b/c he is thinking "didn't go so hot last time, this is too long, it is so boring, it is too hard, it is too dumb" and all those unproductive things that make it harder to focus the next time around.

[PeterPan]

Just gonna be really fast here but I throw out a couple things.  

 

-Kids want to do well when they can do well.--In other words, if he could do the tasks, he probably would do the tasks. In other words, when it's not happening at this age, it's because of something the child isn't able to control/make happen, meaning it's something WE have to fix.

 

-60% of kids with dyslexia will also get an ADHD label.  ADHD requires limited distractions and STRUCTURE.  A young sibling in the room is a distraction and allowing him to work and interrupt is not structure.  Lecka gave you polite ways of getting it, and I EXPECT it.  I pre-warn him, and when we sit down to work, we work.  

 

-The majority of homeschooling at this age is DISCIPLINE.  You have to teach and require the behavior you want, and it's probably going to take more effort from you than you ever expected.  In other words, someone here from the boards met me and went "Wow, you're working WAY harder to keep him in line than normal."  No joke, lol.  That's what some kids take.

 

-If behavioral modification can't deal with it, there are meds.

 

So ditch the sibling, work in concrete sessions, increase structure, prewarn on the expected behavior, STOP all forward progression if he gets off track.  When my ds gets off-track, I turn slightly away and just stop.  Everything stops till he notices and is ready to return to working.  Discipline is a part of homeschooling and you have to cross the hurdle on how to get that structure and compliance. I would not hesitate to discipline for refusal to comply. I also have a 3 strikes and you're out.  That's not physical strikes but 3 times of consequences from me and it's your father's turn.  As in I'll call him home from work. I'm maybe not on the nicest end of things, but we get our work done and we get it done with ADHD labels.   

 

I also have a refusal to work, I'm tired, whatever policy.  If you're too tired or don't want to work, no problem, go to your room.  But if you're in your room, that's where your father finds you.

 

Put him in some physical activity for several hours a week (or day if you can!). I have my ds doing gymnastics and swimming two days a week, and I'd have him in more if I could. Consider an OT eval if warranted.

 

What you're calling forgetting is called working memory.  Did he pass the screening?  We're working on working memory multiple ways every single day, because increased working memory is ESSENTIAL for being able to hold the sounds in your head and do the tasks of Barton.

 

[Lecka]

I have a structure of "this is going to happen" but I can do a lot of jokiness and little jokey breaks, without it throwing things off.  But, I am not going to let him joke and not do what I have asked. 

 

I think I do have an easier time in a way b/c of no ADHD.  (It was suspected at school and then the school psychologist said no, there is no way, none of the right scores are elevated.)  If you need to have the firmer structure, do that.  BUT you can have a firmer structure and still be very positive, cheerful, encouraging, and end on success.  If he is dragging things out -- I think you say to yourself "we will stop for a break as soon as I see the first of these signs emerge, or even before any of these signs emerge, b/c I know it is coming."  Then you are ending on success. 

 

But my son is able to be jokey and then get back on task, so it is an option for us.  It is better for him, but if it didn't work, I wouldn't be doing it. 

 

My discipline comes more from -- there is something he is not going to get, that he wants, and it is not happening until I am satisfied he has made an effort.  But -- it is a do-able goal, not a stretch or a "what I want."  That is the stick.  But I am really big on the carrot ----- being complimentary, having a treat afterward, etc.  So that it seems more positive.  I don't bring up the "stick" like "do this or else no that."  It is just known -- that "I'm sorry, but we can't do that until we have gotten through this."  I tell him it is my Mommy job and I have to do my Mommy job.  But it is not like I am against him or I am doing things to him..... I am not doing anything to him, he is just not going to be allowed to do certain things, b/c that is my Mommy job, to make sure he does certain things. I mean, it is not like it is my idea of a good time, either, I have just got to do it, too.  But it is not an option for me to not do my Mommy job.  And also a lot of things that are my Mommy job go his way, which he knows, too. If I start to pick and choose, I might choose not to do some things he really likes.

 

It is really about the same thing, it is just a wording I am more comfortable with.  Plus my husband was deployed for a lot of this time, so I did not have him available.  I wish I had!!!!!  But I can say, it is possible to do it on your own authority, you don't have to wait around for your husband's authority.  Now, I am happy to let my husband be the voice of authority.  But I can't let my kids run wild if he is out of town for work, and that still happens pretty often and for a month or two at a time.  Just to say -- you can do it!!!!!!!  Even if it is not just how any one else is doing it, you can do it, you will find a way that works :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with the posts above.

 

DD got distracted easily.  She was also bored out of her mind.  Even though she couldn't read worth anything, she was unmotivated and she didn't get the system.  It seemed weird and boring and although she wouldn't admit it, what we were learning was not intuitive for her so it was actually hard, even though it SEEMED like it should be easy.  So she tried to avoid it, she was easily taken off task, etc.

 

I had to completely isolate us.  No possibility of distractions, no ringing phones, no siblings, etc.  And I kept lessons very short.  I set a timer so she knew it wouldn't drag on forever, but also made it clear we would keep working until we reached a specific point in the lesson.  If she made it there before our time was up, we were done.  If she was struggling and our time was up we might stop but if we went over our time because she was dragging her feet or whatever then we would keep going until we reached our designated stopping point.  And we did incorporate some jokes.  I had to remember to smile, make eye contact, keep positive, not frustrated.  And if she wasn't doing exactly what I asked I had to patiently but firmly just keep at it.  Eventually she realized that going off on tangents wasn't ending the lesson any sooner.  It actually dragged things out longer.  And once she got really used to the hand gestures and structure of the lesson and realized these things WERE NOT OPTIONAL the lessons smoothed out SO MUCH!

 

FWIW, half way through Lesson 3 I realized that I had not been very diligent with insisting on the hand gestures and that she was also missing some pieces.  I started over but I didn't tell her that.  Things were much smoother the second time around.

 

Offering a fun reward at the end of each lesson helped her, too.  Sometimes it was just a quick snack we shared or I would read to her from a book she was interested in, or we would cuddle or take a walk.  

 

One thing I ended up having to do that might not be an option for you but I thought I would mention was that DD would start her lesson in Barton before DS was even up.  I had her getting up early enough that she would eat breakfast, we would visit outside for a few minutes then she would start Barton.  After Barton and our little reward moment, THEN I would get DS up.  But DD is a morning person so it worked out well that way.

[Lecka]

I think I should say -- b/c we did multiple short sessions, it made it easy to take little breaks and to take long breaks.  But certain things were "extras" and were not going to happen if I was not satisfied.  Stuff like -- a trip to the park, swimming, tv, video games, etc. etc.  Other things he could do, but he would be on the bored side during his breaks, not doing his favorite things, and I would not be taking him anywhere.  And, I would have some nice outing for when "we" had gotten our stuff done.  I have "work" like cleaning, laundry, etc., and I will need to have my work done, and he will need to have his work done (this is when my younger kids were too little to be a factor).  If he was ready for a break, I could get some stuff done.  But he would WANT to do that outing (even a simple, basic one -- to the grocery store and he might get a bagel, which is a thing he likes) and so he would want to get his stuff done, too.  But it let him take breaks, too. 

 

But really, once it was just an established thing, it got SOOOOOO much easier. 

 

Not that I am never mean in connection to "yes we are doing this," I just try not to be mean.  I have definitely been an immovable rock faced with a hurricane a few times. 

[OneStepAtATime]

By the way, by the time we got to Level 2 things were much easier in a lot of ways because I went back and really solidified the foundation laid down in Level 1.  And as soon as DD realized she was actually READING, not just the Barton stuff, but things she saw IRL (like closed captioning and signs on stores and magazine headings, etc.) she was a lot more enthusiastic.  :)

[displace]

Thanks for all the suggestions!  I'm sorry I can't respond quickly anymore since we started HSing... :)

 

We zipped through the first part of lesson 3, and I'm hoping DS will make the connection of attention = speed and break time.

 

One of the words was IZM (to break apart).  I was unable to pronounce it without a vowel between Z and M and DS was saying it's four sounds, etc.  I Z U M.  I skipped it.  I really think his phonological processing is fine but most of our hiccups are attention based (and age).  I'm starting to ignore goofiness and just be more light hearted about it so our moods were better today.  I will do a second session later on too.  Yeah! 

 

I really think once we move to letters it'll be better.  Even real words towards the end of this lesson.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Wow, that's lightning bolt progress!  Congrats!!  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Just FWIW, this morning I was the one distracted.  I had a lot of paperwork to process and some bills that I needed to follow up on. I didn't leave all of that mentally behind when we started Barton.   :tongue_smilie: DD told me to go take a break and we would tackle the lesson again when I was more engaged.   :ohmy:  :laugh:  

[displace]

Just FWIW, this morning I was the one distracted. I had a lot of paperwork to process and some bills that I needed to follow up on. I didn't leave all of that mentally behind when we started Barton. :tongue_smilie: DD told me to go take a break and we would tackle the lesson again when I was more engaged. :ohmy: :laugh:

How funny!

[imagine.more]

Just FWIW, this morning I was the one distracted.  I had a lot of paperwork to process and some bills that I needed to follow up on. I didn't leave all of that mentally behind when we started Barton.   :tongue_smilie: DD told me to go take a break and we would tackle the lesson again when I was more engaged.   :ohmy:  :laugh:  

 

ROFL! Yep, been there done that though my DD didn't call me on it :) But yes, as tutor and student you have to leave everything else out of your brain to do Barton. Which makes it hard! 

 

Just to share a bit, we also have to kick the younger siblings out during Barton lessons. They are terrible about distracting us! They do not 'get' that poor Ana needs silent focused time because with being HOH, probably ADHD, and very dyslexic any noise is terribly distracting. And for me I have to be able to hear every nuance of what she says. Did she drop the /n/ in tent again? Did she add an /r/ sound to sink? So yeah, I often kick al 3 littles out of the room. DD2 I stick in her toddler-proofed room with a baby gate for all of our lessons. DD4 gets sent to the basement to play and DD6 is relatively chill so he's allowed to work on his independent stuff as long as he is SILENT. I have to be strict about that for him. 

 

Anyway, it sounds like you might be dealing with some ADHD kind of stuff and I totally agree with other people's suggestion that he's goofing off because it's hard. DD does that too. It's a defense mechanism. DD is older so I can call her on it but at his age I'd just play the "kind but firm" card. And maybe add in some extra fun aspects to practice the Barton skills. Maybe instead of colored tiles he'd have fun driving colored cars onto a 3-spot parking lot drawn on cardboard. Each car can represent a sound in the word. The woman who taught me O-G did lots of goofy stuff like that with her students. Other ideas instead of simple tiles:

 

-colored play-dough balls

-Little People figures

-stuffed animals

-skittles

-m&m's

-bean bags that he can toss

 

To demonstrate deletion you can do things like put 2 plastic containers with different colored lids. The blue lid represents "b", the green lid represents "m" and the identical plastic cups represent "at". Run finger from the lid to the container saying the word "b....at" and then take off the "b" lid and replace it with the "m" lid. Deletion and substitution, and a slightly new way to teach it. 

[displace]

Great ideas!