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Did Lena Dunham molest her sister?


Janie Grace
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What exactly is she famous for?  My Google searches (albeit I'm not the best internetter around) don't seem to turn up much besides the current news story.  She's not an author I'm familiar with ... is she a movie star?  

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Yes I would say that's sexual abuse. I wouldn't say that it's outside the realms of what a curious, unsupervised 7yo might do. I do find it rather horrifying that and adult would look back on it as healthy and something to make light of. That is the most disturbing part really.

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Did she not have an editor?  How is it possible that someone else read that book before it was published and didn't think "Holy sh*t!  We can't publish this!  This is disturbing/creepy/horrifying ..."

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That was disturbing and disgusting. I agree that the fact that she recounts it so lightly makes it 1000% worse. Even if a person did that as a child, I would think they would not want to advertise that fact in a book. Gross. She kept saying 1 year old.....why wasn't the 1 year old still in a diaper? She would have had to take the diaper off and then put it back on to do this stuff. My 7 year old wouldn't touch a diaper if you paid him.

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Absolutely not, assuming that she is telling the truth.  Sexual abuse would require that the contact have been sexual.  I don't see what she did as having anything to do with sexuality.  I have only read excerpts, of course, so maybe in context there was more to it.

 

I thought her sister's Tweets on the subject were odd, though. 

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That was disturbing and disgusting. I agree that the fact that she recounts it so lightly makes it 1000% worse. Even if a person did that as a child, I would think they would not want to advertise that fact in a book. Gross. She kept saying 1 year old.....why wasn't the 1 year old still in a diaper? She would have had to take the diaper off and then put it back on to do this stuff. My 7 year old wouldn't touch a diaper if you paid him.

 

Yeah.  I've got a 1 year old and a 10 year old.  My 10 year old adores her baby brother but the second there's mention of doing something with a diaper then she disappears faster than a teenager when their parent starts dancing to 80's music in the car at the school drop off line.  

 

The more I think about this the more it bothers me.  

 

Ick!

 

Ick!

 

Ick!

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I haven't read the whole passage, just what CNN published.  Based solely on *that* I don't think it makes a child of that age a sexual predator, per se (though as an adult, how in the world does she not know better than to talk about it like it was okay???) but I do believe there must have been some serious issues in her family if she didn't know that was wrong.  My dd is six, and absolutely knows you don't touch another child there.

 

I think it's normal for children to have questions about how they look compared to other children, but by that age, most kids have enough of a sense of boundaries to not do something like that.

 

It sounds like there may have been more in the book, however, so I can't say because I don't have all the facts.

 

ETA: I went and found the excerpt in its entirety, and yeah, that woman has some major issues.  The fact that the mom apparently didn't think the incident was strange enough to warrant comment definitely makes me wonder if there was sexual abuse occurring in the family.

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Yes, yes. And if it was another child, NOT her baby sister, there would be no question. I'm actually appalled that anyone thinks this is remotely okay.

 

I haven't seen anyone saying it's okay, just that it's possible she didn't know it was wrong at the time she did it.  If her family had some issues, she may never have been taught appropriate boundaries.  (Obviously, she should know better as an adult...)  

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Hm. Now, as a parent, if I saw that behavior in my children, I would talk to them about limits, boundaries, personal hygiene, and most importantly, consent and how babies can't consent. That said:

 

There are a lot of things that I would consider molestation if they were done to me by another adult, someone with body awareness, that I don't consider molestation among seven-year-olds experimenting.

 

To name a few:

  • I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
  • Can I see what it feels like?
  • Stealing a kiss
  • Refusing to stop a hug
  • Masturbating on the family couch (I have seen MANY two to seven year old children do this, totally unaware of the implications of what they were doing--all were sent to their rooms to be told that this is something you do in private, and after wash your hands).

 

Was what she did wrong in the sense that she should not have done it? Yes, because we don't touch other's privates (hygeine, this rule is re-discussed during sex education), we don't touch other's bodies without permission of the person or their parent (bodily integrity). She was old enough to know better, but not old enough to be held accountable to our adult norms.

 

Was it molestation? No, I don't think so. I don't think the intent was to exert power over her sister, but to experiment. I would give seven as the upper limit for that. There's a reason that many traditions don't hold children accountable for their actions until they are 7+, and that is that people under 7 are just not reasonable in general.

 

If she were my child, we'd have had a long talk. If I edited her book, I'd have had her put it in another tone. Jokes about child molestation are NEVER funny.

 

Finally, I guess we're the only family that had significant diaper-free time at home? Diapers were for outings. I think this is not mainstream but it's also not unusual.

 

I'm pretty shocked she was left alone with a one-year-old for any amount of time, frankly. I'm pretty free-range but took my child into the bathroom at the age of one. But anyway, I don't think kids should be taken away from their family for that, not from the rich, not from the poor.

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She probably included it in the book, and perhaps changed details, to generate controversy, get free publicity and sell books. I am so tired of people selling books by shocking, outraging or goading potential readers.

 

I wonder about if Lena was also abused. Your average 7 year old who is inappropriately sexual is acting out or recreating what happened to them or that they saw.

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I do agree with Mergath that it's possible she didn't know it was wrong when she did it, and I think that type of curiosity is normal the carrying out of it, however, is crossing a boundary.

 

It's a different scenario than if it were two 7 year olds, I think.

 

What really, really strikes me, is how non-chalant she is about it now.

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The linked article gives very little information.  Are the comments above based on these, or on a lot more that I don't know about?

 

I don't see "abuse" in the above.  Looking at a baby's genitals at age 7 is certainly not abuse, it is perfectly normal and anyone with a younger sibling would likely do so regularly during a diaper change or bath.  Curiosity is not abuse.  Looking is not abuse.

 

Letting a young chlid lie on you while watching TV is not abuse.  It might be that you are planning something and that is some part of your plan but it in itself is far from abuse.  It is nurturing.  When I was young I had my younger siblings lie on me all the time because I felt it was a loving thing for a sister to do.  I still feel that way.  My kids do it too and it is not sexual abuse, even if a sexual thought happens to travel through the mind of the older child when it is happening.

 

The kissing on the lips.  That is borderline.  The age difference is pretty narrow and they were both children.  If they were the same age I would say no abuse, just normal kid curiosity.  If there were no bribing, I would say no abuse.  The bribing makes it iffy for one reason:  why was the bribe needed?  Was the younger child feeling uncomfortable about this?  In that case it was not OK.  But was it abuse?  I think it depends on the age of the older girl when it happened, which is not shared in the linked article.

 

I do think it is wrong for this allegation to be brought out like this.  For one thing, she was a kid, and we all did things as kids that were not appropriate, and so what.  Secondly, if the behavior was indeed problematic, it would be better to discuss the implications in a more productive way.  Kids do this stuff.  It is not unusual at all.  It was rampant in my neighborhood when I was a kid.  It is probably rampant now.  If this is a problem, the solution is not to call some grown up lady a child molestor.

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The fact that she non-chalantly mentions it in a book does not faze me at all.  That is normal in grown-up fiction and non-fiction.  I dislike it, but it is not something that should be taken into account in determining whether a person has or would commit a crime.

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In my family, we changed our younger siblings' diapers routinely.  My sister changed my kid brother's diaper when she was 7yo.  It is not a sexual act to look at or touch a baby's genitals unless done with the intent of getting the child or yourself sexually aroused.  And most kids that young would not even think of that as a possibility.

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This article has a longer excerpt.

 

 

I'm flabbergasted that neither the 7 year old nor the mother found it....HIGHLY unlikely...that a 1 year old would be capable of inserting pebbles into her vagina.

 

That was strange and I wonder if the whole pebble thing was fictional.  However, if we're going to assume that is fictional, then perhaps other parts were fictional as well.

 

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I also don't find it strange that a 1yo (anywhere from 12 to 24 mos) was diaper-free while playing outside.  My kids were.

 

And I don't find it strange that a 7yo was left alone with a 1yo.  I find it normal and healthy.  I find it disturbing that others are disturbed by a 1yo alone with a 7yo.

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SKL, I am not disturbed, just surprised. It's less about the 7-year-old--my five-year-old roams the neighborhood while I'm home--and more about the baby. I don't think babies really should be out of a caregiver's supervision for more than a few seconds. Mine were usually in the same room as me.

 

I'm sure some 7-year-olds have presence of mind. Mine did not!

 

 

I'm flabbergasted that neither the 7 year old nor the mother found it....HIGHLY unlikely...that a 1 year old would be capable of inserting pebbles into her vagina.

 

I'm a little jealous. My kids have gotten things like pebbles stuck in pretty much every orifice possible. My personal favorite: "Mom, accidentally, I accidentally got the peanut stuck in my nose, by accident." Well of course. You wouldn't stick a peanut in your nose on purpose! (Said child will still come tearfully, "Mom, accidentally, on accident, I sprayed myself in the eye with your perfume. I'm sorry mommy it was an accident.") Frankly I have no idea if they ever had anything stuck in their vaginas. I guess not because no infections?

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Based on the words, I would say that is *absolutely* molestation, abuse, exploitation and disturbing.

 

She herself described her behavior in terms of sexual abuse, and now she's all offended and desperately trying to make it political.

 

Did she not have an editor?  How is it possible that someone else read that book before it was published and didn't think "Holy sh*t!  We can't publish this!  This is disturbing/creepy/horrifying ..."

 

 

This, so very much.

 

If Lena were a boy, she absolutely positively would be accused of molestation. I don't understand why this is even considered questionable. This goes way beyond "experimentation" IMO.

 

This too.

 

If it were two seven year olds experimenting, I don't think anyone would say much more than, "Hey TMI, hello?" But a seven year old preying on a one year old? And this apparently went on for years? I doubt she was bribing a one year old with candy to let her kiss her on the lips and so on.

 

The fact that she's publishing this in a book also violating. Did her sister consent to have this written about her? I know legally she doesn't have to, but using your sister in this way seems really cold and just horrid. I read an article that said that her sister in the past has made statements about Lena oversharing about her and how it's caused fights.

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Do I think it was molestation? Hm. It doesn't sound to me like it was sexual or intended to exert power. It seems like a combination of curiosity coupled with a lack of supervision and social training. She was a little kid. Little kids do inappropriate things sometimes without prior abuse. I don't see any description of genital to genital or genital to oral contact that would indicate possible abuse. And although the sister is described as a year old, Lena Dunham doesn't have any kids herself. Isn't she likely to describe her sister as a year old even if the sister were closer to 2 years old? A 22 month old toddler would still be a year old to most non-parents, but would have the dexterity to do something like that. I'm not trying to make excuses for her, just trying to think it through. I do *absolutely* agree with the linked article in this:

 

 

And while Lena’s story is gaining some traction, I shudder to think how this book would have been received if it had been written by a man or a person of color. It would have never made it past editors. But because Lena is white, privileged and has marketed herself as a feminist/proponent of women’s issues we were supposed to laugh at her childhood quirks and keep it moving.

It was a bad idea to include it in the book, and someone on the publisher's staff should have been insistent about telling her so, flat out refusing to leave it in the book. It's inappropriate on several levels, not the least of which is her sister's privacy.

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SKL, I am not disturbed, just surprised. It's less about the 7-year-old--my five-year-old roams the neighborhood while I'm home--and more about the baby. I don't think babies really should be out of a caregiver's supervision for more than a few seconds. Mine were usually in the same room as me.

 

I'm sure some 7-year-olds have presence of mind. Mine did not!

 

 

The mom was nearby, as the 7yo called the mom who came immediately.  Maybe mom was tending the flowerbeds or washing the dishes.  I wasn't always in the same room when my kids were 1yo.

 

It is normal in my life to have school-aged siblings/cousins tend babies.  My kids at 7 were in charge of their toddler cousins when all were visiting the grandparents.  This included potty training assistance etc.  They were upstairs and all the adults were downstairs.  I am pretty sure nobody thought there was anything weird about that.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

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I am also confused by her reaction.  Usually the approach to this sort of conservative reaction would be, e.g., "I know it is provocative, and that is why I included it, because I think people should acknowledge and discuss the reality that these things happen.  Given our ages and states of mind, there was no crime and no victim, but if these childhood behaviors are disturbing, let's have some dialogue about that."

 

Instead she got all angry and extreme about what really isn't that surprising of a comment.  Maybe she is PMSing or something, but she should have thought through her reaction better.

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The mom was nearby, as the 7yo called the mom who came immediately.  Maybe mom was tending the flowerbeds or washing the dishes.  I wasn't always in the same room when my kids were 1yo.

 

It is normal in my life to have school-aged siblings/cousins tend babies.  My kids at 7 were in charge of their toddler cousins when all were visiting the grandparents.  This included potty training assistance etc.  They were upstairs and all the adults were downstairs.  I am pretty sure nobody thought there was anything weird about that.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

 

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the mom was indoors and the baby was in the (possibly quite long) driveway or something.

 

I'm trying to remember if I was really in the same room as my one year old... but now I think, probably not. We have a pretty open floor plan and there were times they'd get into things.

 

Still, my impression of that story was that they were outdoors, mom was inside, and no, I really don't think that happened with a one-year-old.

 

But I agree, it's not abuse, it is just the kind of thing that leaves you with a toddler who has pebbles in her vagina or a peanut in her nose, or something.

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Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the mom was indoors and the baby was in the (possibly quite long) driveway or something.

<snip>

Still, my impression of that story was that they were outdoors, mom was inside, and no, I really don't think that happened with a one-year-old.

Did you read the longer excerpt that Jenna posted? It gave me the impression that the girls were outside, but that the mom was very close by, not indoors.

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I do think it was violating for her to tell these things about her sister without her sister's permission. I wouldn't want a book out there about such things involving me.

Definitely this. There was an interview with both of them earlier this year that I think makes it rather troubling for me - http://www.afterellen.com/lena-dunham-talks-about-coming-out-for-her-sister-and-being-an-ally-in-the-new-york-times-magazine/09/2014/

 

From the article:

Daum notes that Grace then rolled her eyes saying, “Without getting into specifics, most of our fights have revolved around my feeling like Lena took her approach to her own personal life and made my personal life her property.â€

 

“Basically, it’s like I can’t keep any of my own secrets,†Lena said. “And I consider Grace to be an extension of me, and therefore I couldn’t handle the fact that she’s a very private person with her own value system and her own aesthetic and that we do different things.â€

I fault the editors, too. No one in all the time it took to bring the book to publication ever thought that maybe these parts weren't such a great idea?
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I am also confused by her reaction.  Usually the approach to this sort of conservative reaction would be, e.g., "I know it is provocative, and that is why I included it, because I think people should acknowledge and discuss the reality that these things happen.  Given our ages and states of mind, there was no crime and no victim, but if these childhood behaviors are disturbing, let's have some dialogue about that."

 

Instead she got all angry and extreme about what really isn't that surprising of a comment.  Maybe she is PMSing or something, but she should have thought through her reaction better.

I would say that she's young and doesn't have all of the experience and tact of someone older. It probably would have been wise to let her manager or publisher help her craft a statement instead of lashing out. But, ascribing it to PMS? REALLY? UGH! I really hate that crap when men do it. I don't know why anyone thinks it's better when women do it.

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If it's strange for a 7yo to look at or touch her sister's genitals, then exactly why is it different for a parent or babysitter or other caregiver to do the same thing during a bath or diaper change?

She was not just looking. There is nothing wrong (obviously) with caregivers or siblings seeing a child's genitals. I don't think you really believe that is what people are saying. My opposite gendered children see each other naked on a regular basis- because they strip and run through the house before/after baths. They took baths together until recently. But neither has ever shown much interest in the other's genitals.

 

Personally, I would not have a 7 year old changing diapers. Not because of anything sexual, but because it is too much responsibility.

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Absolutely not, assuming that she is telling the truth.  Sexual abuse would require that the contact have been sexual.  I don't see what she did as having anything to do with sexuality.  I have only read excerpts, of course, so maybe in context there was more to it.

 

I thought her sister's Tweets on the subject were odd, though. 

 

Interacting with your sister's vagina, out of curiosity, is SEXUAL.

 

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She was not just looking. There is nothing wrong (obviously) with caregivers or siblings seeing a child's genitals. I don't think you really believe that is what people are saying. My opposite gendered children see each other naked on a regular basis- because they strip and run through the house before/after baths. They took baths together until recently. But neither has ever shown much interest in the other's genitals.

 

I am missing the logic here.  Your kids have not shown much interest in each other's genitals.  OK, but what does that prove?  Different kids get curious about different things.  The fact that it happens to be a certain body part for some kids should not be more disturbing than any other kind of curiosity.

 

There are some people who believe it is unnatural for young people to NOT be curious about genitals.

 

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I would say that she's young and doesn't have all of the experience and tact of someone older. It probably would have been wise to let her manager or publisher help her craft a statement instead of lashing out. But, ascribing it to PMS? REALLY? UGH! I really hate that crap when men do it. I don't know why anyone thinks it's better when women do it.

 

Is 28 really young enough to be excused on grounds of youth and inexperience? IMO, no. She's been an outspoken and exhibitionist type person for a pretty long time to be considered the ingenue now.

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I am missing the logic here. Your kids have not shown much interest in each other's genitals. OK, but what does that prove? Different kids get curious about different things. The fact that it happens to be a certain body part for some kids should not be more disturbing than any other kind of curiosity.

 

There are some people who believe it is unnatural for young people to NOT be curious about genitals.

 

The logic is this. She was not just looking. Looking is not wrong. Touching is.

 

I was sharing about my kids to show that I did not have the attitude that no one should see ever see anyone else naked.

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My understanding from mandatory reporter training is that experimentation with more than two years in between the ages of the children is not the same as mutual curiosity and "playing doctor" and warrants further investigation.

But, would your average person today necessarily automatically subscribe to that? Much less 20+ years ago? And "warrants further investigation" doesn't mean "yes, it's abuse." Gawker (which, I realize is tabloid-y) asked a very experienced psychotherapist about it, and he seems to brush it off: http://gawker.com/therapist-lena-dunhams-stories-dont-sound-like-sibling-1654438044

 

edited to add a quote from the therapist in question:

If I had a quarter for every kid in that age demographic that touched somebody else out of curiosity, I'd be a rich man. I think that's a natural part of development and curiosity. There's no sense of control or shame or harm [in Dunham's writing]. It would be really hard to construe it that way.

 

I think you have to take into consideration her age, her history, and the idea that at that age, unless you've gone through severe sexual trauma, there's really almost nothing sexual about it. The same explanation could be used for grabbing the dog's tail. It's the same type of coercion. Just because it's in the sexual venue, people want to attach something to it, but it's almost totally different. It's an innocent type of thing.

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