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I want to love Logic of English, but...


Renny30
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Hello,

 

We're new to HSing. DS is 9 (as of Sunday). HFA Autism (4 year old PPD-NOS diagnosis), pending some more psycho-educational evaluations in February. Hoping to having a speech/language eval at some point in November. He would be in 3rd grade in school, but we're working on a 2nd to 3rd grade level with our curriculum choices. We're using Abeka Language 4 because he did 3 in private school last year, but I just ordered R&S English 3. Abeka 4 is too advanced for him and honestly I don't like Abeka Language.  I was gifted R&S English 2 and having looked at it, it's way to easy for him. I'm thinking 3 will be perfect.  He's reading on about a 2.5 grade level. We do lots of reading (mostly read alouds) and reading comprehension work Q&A's during and after the reading. He also does a novel study every week. Right now we're using the Magic Tree House books. He likes them and is able to read them on his own successfully and answer the questions I put together for the study. The core of our HS is the 3 R's although there isn't quite as much writing going on as there should be. He does 3rd grade  science, social studies and music through our coop. That's a little background.

 

I started using Logic of English Essentials this week. I'm trying to love it, but I'm not. For some reason it's not feeling that logical to me. We have only done two lessons, but I don't see the connection between the spelling words and the current lesson. For example in lesson 1 we had words with "nk" endings. That had absolutely nothing do with with the lesson. It was so random it bugged me. We enjoy playing the games, but it's early yet, so the games are just for fun as he already knew his phonegrams A-Z. He also knows most of the blends. My DS has a great memory. He already knows 600 or more of the Fry words and we are continuing with that list to 1000 and possibly keep going into the next Fry list. He'll know the 1000 by February or March if I keep up the pace. He's a good speller. Again memory, so I think I could teach him spelling by simply giving him a list of words every 10 days or so like he's had in school for the past 3 years and he'd spell those words.

 

My goal when I purchased LOE was to teach him to understand English, but now that I've started I feel like it was a mistake. I feel like it's a wrong fit for him. I don't think he'll learn and process the spelling rules and all the exceptions. Not at this time. He's very literal, so I thought rules would be a good thing, but he struggles with processing information, applying it, and making inferences. He can't do a simple word problem and has some major comprehension issues. For those reasons I don't think he'll get all those rules. I don't want to overwhelm him. With that said, the other program that I was strongly considered going with was R&S Phonics for 2nd grade. We're reading the R&S Nurture Readers (2nd grade) which he loves and I like too, save for all the references to wickedness. It seems that would be more connected, so I'm feeling like I made a mistake buying LOE. 

 

We're still in the Nurture series Unit 1, so if I'm going to switch to the R&S Phonics it seems I should jump on it now. I'm not using the workbooks for Nurture. I have them, but I'm not using them yet. Right now I just want to enjoy the stories, at least though the 1st Unit. If I went with the phonics I'm sure we wouldn't use them at all as it'd be too much. I keep referring back to the samples page of the R&S phonics and asking myself why I didn't think that was good enough. I think I was impressed me with all the Youtube videos on LOE's channel. I also got caught up in the fantasy of my child "loving" to read because he "gets" it. ***sigh*** I'm not saying he won't ever, but I don't know. I'm feeling really confused right now. Should I give LOE more time?

 

Does it make sense for continue teaching the Fry words? I hesitate to stop because they're so easy for him to learn. I'ts something he's easily successful at and we need those successes. 

 

Edited to add - The Fry 1000 is a sight word list. Very similar to Dolch but more words. Here's a link if anyone is interested. http://www.uniqueteachingresources.com/Fry-1000-Instant-Words.html

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

Rhonda

 

P.S. - Can someone tell me how to change my profile from Just Visiting? I've been registered for 2 years. I emailed administrators, but no one has responded. Thanks.

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You are still at the Just Visiting stage because you only have 19 posts (according to the profile I am seeing).  It isn't length of time you are a member but how many posts you make, or so I believe.  Once you have made a certain number of posts, you get bumped up to a new level.

 

As for the Fry words, we don't use that system so I can't really help there.  Sorry.  Hopefully someone else can address that.

 

Best wishes.  :)

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I've used Writing Road to Reading (Spalding), Spell to Write and Read, All About Spelling, and Logic of English Foundations.

 

WRTR, SWR, and LOE-F teach the children the phonograms and then have them spell words with them. They teach rules to go with the words, but throw words at them based on frequency in English (WRTR, SWR) or vaguely based on phonograms and rules (LOE-F). WRTR and SWR are like taking a long nature hike after a lecture - you're equipped with the basics as you set out, but you gather knowledge and information as you hack through the bushes and examine specific things. LOE-F is more gentle; no expectation of spelling tests or memorization. I am loving it for teaching reading in a systematic way that my kid likes. I can't speak to LOE-E.

 

AAS teaches words based on rules/phonograms regardless of how common they are, if I remember correctly. It was a big flop in this household because my kids disliked the manipulatives and the slow pace.

 

For an older kid who can write and read well, I would choose WRTR or SWR if I had enough time (I'm not sure I do). Just memorizing the phonograms, which you do in WRTR, SWR, and LOE, enables the kid to see words as sets of phonograms instead of random letters. That helps prevent things like through spelled "throuhg" because that isn't a phonogram.

 

I think AAS is the most "logical" in its approach in some ways, but also the most boring and with the worst review. With WRTR and SWR, you learn, practice, and apply all rules as they come up, all the time.

 

I know nothing about Fry words.

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LOE has a 90 day return policy. I don't know how to advise you, but I do want to welcome you.

 

I believe the just visiting line will disappear after you have posted more, so post away

 

 

I assumed that and then I saw someone on the boards with 2 posts and they were a Bee. LOL. Anyway, we'll see what happens. 

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I've used Writing Road to Reading (Spalding), Spell to Write and Read, All About Spelling, and Logic of English Foundations.

 

WRTR, SWR, and LOE-F teach the children the phonograms and then have them spell words with them. They teach rules to go with the words, but throw words at them based on frequency in English (WRTR, SWR) or vaguely based on phonograms and rules (LOE-F). WRTR and SWR are like taking a long nature hike after a lecture - you're equipped with the basics as you set out, but you gather knowledge and information as you hack through the bushes and examine specific things. LOE-F is more gentle; no expectation of spelling tests or memorization. I am loving it for teaching reading in a systematic way that my kid likes. I can't speak to LOE-E.

 

AAS teaches words based on rules/phonograms regardless of how common they are, if I remember correctly. It was a big flop in this household because my kids disliked the manipulatives and the slow pace.

 

For an older kid who can write and read well, I would choose WRTR or SWR if I had enough time (I'm not sure I do). Just memorizing the phonograms, which you do in WRTR, SWR, and LOE, enables the kid to see words as sets of phonograms instead of random letters. That helps prevent things like through spelled "throuhg" because that isn't a phonogram.

 

I think AAS is the most "logical" in its approach in some ways, but also the most boring and with the worst review. With WRTR and SWR, you learn, practice, and apply all rules as they come up, all the time.

 

I know nothing about Fry words.

 Thanks. The Fry words is just another version of the Dolch, but it's bigger. It goes to 1000 initially (in groups of 100) and then there are the Fry 4000 which adds another 3000 of the most commonly used words in English. 

 

I looked at AAR and AAS, emailed Marie and felt like AAS level 1, which was recommended would be too babyish for him. I also didn't like the idea of making the investment and running through it in a few weeks and then having to buy AAS level 2 right behind it. It was more cost effective to invest in LOE. I also didn't think my son would like using the tiles in AAS. He's pretty tactile, but not when it comes to letter tiles. We have some already and he doesn't like using them much. 

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Is your son able to sound out new words? 

 

I don't think AAS is babyish (as in -- for little kids), and I personally used different letter tiles and it turned out, my son is just picky about letter tiles, but they do help him, they just have to be ones that he happens to like.  But -- I think not all kids like tiles of any kind, too. 

 

If your son is not able to sound out new words, I think you need more than the Frye words, you need something to help him sound out words, too.

 

If he is able to sound out words -- I think you have a lot of options and might be able to skip some things that are focused on teaching basic decoding (sounding out words) skills. 

 

I have not used LOE. 

 

It is great your son knows so many Frye words.  Way to go!

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Is your son able to sound out new words? 

 

I don't think AAS is babyish (as in -- for little kids), and I personally used different letter tiles and it turned out, my son is just picky about letter tiles, but they do help him, they just have to be ones that he happens to like.  But -- I think not all kids like tiles of any kind, too. 

 

If your son is not able to sound out new words, I think you need more than the Frye words, you need something to help him sound out words, too.

 

If he is able to sound out words -- I think you have a lot of options and might be able to skip some things that are focused on teaching basic decoding (sounding out words) skills. 

 

I have not used LOE. 

 

It is great your son knows so many Frye words.  Way to go!

 

 

He can sound out words, particularly the easier ones - 5 letters and under. Anything longer and I have to make him do it. He doesn't like to decode. He doesn't naturally try to do it. He just stops reading and gets frustrated, but when we do it together he'll do it. That's why I thought learning the phonograms would help him to decode harder words. We may not have enough time under our belts with practicing decoding anyway. He has a tutor who has suggested that he hasn't hit his stride yet. She didn't think LOE was necessary at all, but I didn't feel comfortable accepting that. 

 

I didn't mean to say AAS was babyish. I meant level 1 would be babyish for him because he knows the words already, so it would be learning the process for him as opposed to learning new words. I realize that's important too, but I just thought LOE Essentials would be better. He is quick to tell me when he knows something. I hate that I'm second guessing myself. 

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I've used Writing Road to Reading (Spalding), Spell to Write and Read, All About Spelling, and Logic of English Foundations.

 

WRTR, SWR, and LOE-F teach the children the phonograms and then have them spell words with them. They teach rules to go with the words, but throw words at them based on frequency in English (WRTR, SWR) or vaguely based on phonograms and rules (LOE-F). WRTR and SWR are like taking a long nature hike after a lecture - you're equipped with the basics as you set out, but you gather knowledge and information as you hack through the bushes and examine specific things. LOE-F is more gentle; no expectation of spelling tests or memorization. I am loving it for teaching reading in a systematic way that my kid likes. I can't speak to LOE-E.

 

AAS teaches words based on rules/phonograms regardless of how common they are, if I remember correctly. It was a big flop in this household because my kids disliked the manipulatives and the slow pace.

 

For an older kid who can write and read well, I would choose WRTR or SWR if I had enough time (I'm not sure I do). Just memorizing the phonograms, which you do in WRTR, SWR, and LOE, enables the kid to see words as sets of phonograms instead of random letters. That helps prevent things like through spelled "throuhg" because that isn't a phonogram.

 

I think AAS is the most "logical" in its approach in some ways, but also the most boring and with the worst review. With WRTR and SWR, you learn, practice, and apply all rules as they come up, all the time.

 

I know nothing about Fry words.

 Emily,

 

You are using LOE-F and AAS with the same child? 

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