Writing About Literature

[mom31257]

In your home and during the Logic Stage, what encompasses writing about literature (length, topics, details, etc.)?

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

In 5th and 6th grades, we did pretty much what SWB described in her Literary Analysis lectures for the middle grades.  Read a book, discuss it, then go write about it.  The writing involved a brief summary and discussing one or more of the questions in the lecture/in WTM.  These come out more like book summaries/reviews, there is some analysis but no thesis.  With several books, I had her read 3-ish chapters each day and write a summary, then at the end, she went through and put her summaries together, wrote an intro, an analysis/review of the book, and a conclusion, and added linking language to make it flow.  At the time I considered this a really useful exercise  - it got her writing tons of summaries, and she got really good at it.  It also gave her practice in linking/connecting paragraphs together, and in thinking about what her audience/reader needed in order to understand the story.  On the negative side, it gave her a lot of practice in writing book summaries, which she is now having to learn *not* to do as she is learning to write literary essays.  Now in 7th, we are working on essay writing, so we are shifting - somewhat painfully - from the more summarize-and-discuss model to writing with a thesis.  We are reading LOTR right now, and discussing each book, and then I'm requiring one literary analysis essay on each book.  We're also reading some Shakespeare and some short stories.  It's always read/discuss/then write.  I'll let you know how it goes.  ;)

[Another Lynn]

Hope it's not too much of a derailment to ask this.... Rose, in hindsight, would you have done 5th and 6th grade writing differently?  Will you approach literature writing with Morgan differently over the next couple years?

[Angie in VA]

:lurk5:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hope it's not too much of a derailment to ask this.... Rose, in hindsight, would you have done 5th and 6th grade writing differently?  Will you approach literature writing with Morgan differently over the next couple years?

 

I don't think I'll approach writing about literature too differently.  Right now, she reads her own books and I read aloud.  We discuss the things I read aloud, but not her for fun books. I don't assign what she reads on her own, but keep a good stack for her to choose from.  She also listens to a ton of good audiobooks.  In 4th grade, I will start assigning a few books that we will talk about.  No writing.  In 5th grade, she'll start writing about books a la SWB.  I like SWB's approach to doing lit with kids.  I even think that the whole book summary assignment I did with Shannon is worthwhile, I just think I need to be more clear about the transition to essays in 7th grade.

 

Now, her expository writing instruction will probably be fairly different - Shannon is my guinea pig!! And there are resources available now that weren't when Shannon was at this age.  But for writing about literature, I'm pretty happy with what we did, which is nice to realize!

[hollyhock]

I also follow SWB's literature suggestions. As Rose said, it's basically read, discuss, write. So far I don't assign books because I have a big library with lots of classics and my sons are so far great readers. Discussion questions are all in the WTM book or on the literary analysis lecture. For writing, in 5th grade, I start out having them write a response to two questions in the form of a good paragraph. Now for my 7th grade son, I'm trying to get him to answer 3-4 questions with the goal being that by the end of 8th grade he'll be writing about a page. So each question gets a paragraph, if possible. We do this once per week. If for whatever reason we don't have a book to discuss, I have him read a poem and we do the poetry analysis questions.

[mom31257]

What do you all think about  this sample from MP Poetry and Short Stories: American Literature. Does this look like it leads well into writing? This uses the words "grammar", "logic", and "rhetoric", but it doesn't refer to ages. It refers to going deeper and deeper into the story and discussing it beyond recall. I bought this book, but I haven't decided when to begin it. I'm thinking about saving it for next year and really taking our time with it, extending it into 8th grade.

 

I've only used IEW with ds, and it has had him do the story sequence chart (summary) with an intro and conclusion that reads like a book report. I've lead a book club for 3 years as well, so he's very familiar with literary terms and discussion of plot, setting, character, theme, etc. he doesn't always contribute the most, but he does understand it. 

 

I would really love to take our book club to another level next year and include some writing. I feel that I need to get a better handle on it myself, though. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I have the MP Poetry & Short Stories book too, and I also haven't used it yet, but I love the looks of it.  We took a different path this year in literature, and may very well not get to it next year either, but it looks like a great resource even at a high school level.  I'm not a big fan of lit programs, but I really like these books.  Not all MP lit guides have this structure, but the ones that have the Grammar/Logic/Rhetoric structure look just excellent to me.

[EndOfOrdinary]

We have just recently entered logic stage (5th grade).  This year we are reading classic short stories and learning about one of the literary analysis/figurative language terms which is really knock-you-over obvious in the short story.  The short stories allow the process to be a fairly quick one.  No need for summary or taking much time.  We can jump right to discussion and evidence.

 

Every week he is writing a 5 paragraph essay (500-ish words) about the literature term in the short story.  Many times his thesis encompasses something which is a bit more meandering if he decides he wants to come up with his own.  His thesis for Thank You, Ma'am by Langston Hughes was, "When the characters in Thank You, Ma'am see themselves in another person they complete radical acts of trust through hospitality, empathy, and forgiveness."  He came to this through our discussions of characterization.  So even though he is not writing about characterization directly, it was a necessary component of the essay.  When I give him a topic (if he does not want to choose his own) it normally is a bit more straight forward, "How does dialog play an essential role in character and story development in The Jockey by Carson McCullers?" His are still a bit more out there, but we are working on reigning them in more specifically.

 

The point this year is just to get him to go through the process of topic selection, thesis development, outline, draft, finalization.  Every time it is the same process.  This is really working well.  No reinventing the wheel and fewer panic attacks over writing because he knows exactly what to do each step of the way.

 

The focus is mainly on text based evidence, organization, and adequate analysis so that assumptions are not made.  He is required to use parenthetical footnotes, but only one source (just the short story itself).  Each week he goes to his literacy instructor and they specifically hone in on a skill - transition statements, specifically stating a thought, clarifying the main idea concisely in the first three sentences before elaborating, organization continuity through the whole piece, etc.  He gets feedback on skills going well, and only one he needs to work on.  The next week the skill he needs to work on is assessed.  If it is much better, he then goes back through the previous essays to see if he can use any of the new skill to strengthen them.  If it is still fuzzy, he is supposed to bring direct information on difficulties so they can really do specific work.  Text based evidence, strong quotes, and parentheticals all took only one week.  Analysis versus assumptions/repetition has taken a three weeks to really get under control.  Focusing on only one skill at a time has really helped.  He does not feel overwhelmed. 

 

Each week it is a new essay, so it feels like a fresh start.  Revision is handled by going through the older ones once the single skill he has been workin on is really going well.  The first essay was abysmal.  The second essay he wrote was better, but now it is great.  It has had a sentence here and there revised each week for the last six weeks.  Only a couple here and there, so again, not overwhelming, but revised thoroughly.  The sixth essay was much more complete right away, but I am sure will be tweaked again here or there over the next two months.

 

[mom31257]

Thanks, everyone!  I don't know how many of the families will be open to extended the book club to include writing, but I know I need to move forward with ds writing more about literature by next year. 

 

EndOfOrdinary: I've had the same thought about short stories. That is one of the things that drew me to the MP American Literature curriculum. I think it will be a perfect choice for ds. 

 

[Lori D.]

 ...I don't know how many of the families will be open to extended the book club to include writing...

 

I started to write you a long post last night and then deleted it, not wanting to sound like a "negative nellie". But you've definitely brought up what I think is the first hurdle to clear, even before considering curriculum -- do families want this? Because teaching writing in a co-op class is a MAJOR can of worms that you do NOT want to open unless there is a LOT of support and desire by families for writing as part of your book club class.

 

From my own experience of including teaching writing and having writing assignments as part of my gr. 7-12 Lit & Comp co-op classes, I've found that teaching writing or requiring writing is very tricky.

 

Some parents only are willing to have their students attend BECAUSE I include the writing (they need an outsourced option for writing). Other parents can't afford the time out of their homeschooling for my class writing assignments, and are only there for the social time/discussion of books which they have their students read in the students' free time, so it doesn't take away from their at-home homeschooling time.

 

Students in my co-op classes vary WIDELY in ability to write, which means I can NOT ask them to actually write IN class (often, esp. at the logic stage ages, there are students with LDs, who struggle with writing, or who have not yet "clicked" with writing). I've had 7th graders writing at high school level, and high schoolers who don't understand what goes into a paragraph, and who can't write complete sentences,  spell, or punctuate. I've had several high schoolers writing at college-level. I've had students who love creative writing so much, that they just do whatever they want for the assignments (which I've structured to slowly build up to writing a multi-page research paper for one semester, and a literary analysis essay for the other semester) -- so they turn in short stories, character sketches, and descriptive paragraphs of settings instead of, for example, an expository paragraph with a quotation from a source.  :eek: It's crazy to figure out how to encourage and shepherd all these different students!

 

Including writing in my Lit. co-op class easily adds HOURS of work for me at home each week. If I require writing assignments, for best success I find I have to actually TEACH the basics of writing each class (a separate set of lesson plans and support activities) -- tough when you have students with LDs AND students writing at college level in the same class. For each writing assignment, I have to provide a very clear rubric checklist AND an actual example (which usually means me doing the assignment in advance to give them an example). And grading writing is about my least favorite thing to do, plus it takes a lot of time.  :ohmy:

 

 

Hopefully, you do not have similar concerns as hurdles! :) I would still suggest thinking through some questions to decide if you really want to add a writing component to the book discussion club class:

 

- Will writing assignments be required or optional?

- What about co-op families who are not able to or don't want to take time out of their at-home programs for co-op writing assignments?

- Will you grade the writing?

- If not, will you just check off that they did it, or have parents grade it? (without grading accountability of some kind, students are likely to not bother)

- If you do grade the writing, do you have some sort of rubric to work from?

- How will you fit grading into your personal timetable? (I find grading writing is very slow and time consuming work)

- Will you be compensated for your extra time of grading?

- How will you grade writing by students who can't write?

- Will the MP material be enough to teach writing in the class, or will you also need a writing program to teach out of?

 

 

BEST of luck as you think through how this will work for your co-op class! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I'm using the MP Short Stories and Literature this year with a small group ranging from 8th up to 11th.  We just finished Paul Revere's Ride, and so far I like teaching with it.  The vocabulary work is really benefiting several of the dc and has sparked some good conversation regarding origin and use of words, and the comp questions are just enough to make sure that the dc are understanding the selections.  Where I've found the most value of the program is in the Socratic discussion, however, for some of the selection I've not felt there were enough but once the conversation is going it's very easy to lead the dc a little deeper with additional points. 

 

We have had really wonderful conversation that has sparked some debate about the author's meaning and some interesting rabbit holes.  This really came as a huge surprise to me since the 4 dc involved in this group do NOT like reading (2 are dyslexic so reading anything with unfamiliar syntax is challenging for them), and none of them are fans of written works that are "old".  So, the first lesson was spent with them explaining why they didn't like the selection, BUT they all were pulling specific things out of the selection and giving good evidence to support the reasons they didn't like it so I counted it as a win. LOL!  

 

The one thing that the program did not include that I've felt it necessary to add was additional information about the author and time period in which the selection was written.  Easily found on the internet though. We just had a wonderful discussion on Paul Revere's Ride last week in which I shared with the dc the actual events that took place (2 of them knew but 2 didn't).  We talked about why the author chose to change the events and also got into a discussion about what would have happened had none of the riders made it to Lexington or Concord. None of which came directly from the program but was sparked by the Socratic discussion. 

 

Regarding the writing portion - doing the whole lesson and having good discussion about each selection would give a student ample knowledge to finish the lesson with a written essay based on their own topic, one you assign, or using the essay prompt given at the end of the lesson.  As of now I've not required any written work other than the vocab, and comprehension answers in the workbook. One of my dc doesn't have the time to add more writing right now since this program is being done in addition to an already full English program, and my other dc struggles with writing so I'm doing good to get her to do her main English assignments. The other  dc  in the group have not had enough writing instruction at this point to be able to write well about literature.  As Lori mentioned above, I don't have the time to also instruct them in writing since they are all at such varying levels of skill. We have however, talked a bit about how you might take a specific topic we've come across in our discussion and create an essay about it.  If I had a group of dc that were all at the same level of skill and able to do the writing without having to be instructed I would definitely assign the writing though. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Cool, Aime! Thanks for that review.  I do look forward to using this program.  At this point it looks like we might do it in 9th.  

[mom31257]

Thanks, Lori and Aimee! Those are great posts and definitely some things to consider. I've meant to come back and respond to Lori's and forgot to do so. 

 

By expanding book club, I was thinking of making the writing portion a class we do after the regular book club is over. I definitely want it to be an optional class not part of a co-op situation where the students have to participate. I think that would eliminate some potential problems. I would keep it small, too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Momling]

For shorter stories and essays, my 7th grader reads and answers the questions from the textbook (we're using a high school american lit book). For longer works, she writes either a long summary or a short essay (1-2 typed pages) based on topics I've found online. We've also done lit guides, but they seem to be too much. My girl reads *fast* and it pains her to keep stopping at every chapter to answer comprehension and vocabulary questions.