I feel like throwing in the towel

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

All I've succeeded to do with my son is turn him off learning.

Sigh.

Public school could not have done worse.

 

He's got 'output problems' and is just plain lazy to boot. So, in an effort to thwart his laziness, and force him to give me some tangible proofs that he's done some work, I've totally turned him off learning.

 

Now it's impacting our relationship, and my dd's homeschooling is suffering from it. But sending him to school isn't really a possibility. He'd be put in 4th grade, regardless of his level, while he's already tackling algebra, and knows more history, Latin and Greek than the average elementary teacher. He'd be totally bored and I'll feel guilty. And I couldn't take him out again, at least not easily, due to a &%$*^%* school board that is not open to homeschooling.

 

Sigh.. How do I get the laziness out of the boy, and love of learning back in?

[whybenormal]

((((hugs))))

 

I'm so sorry to hear you are experiencing this. I don't have any great advice. But perhaps I can give you encouragement? If your son is like mine, public school is not the answer. Because of his giftedness, he would be miserable.

 

Homeschooling is hard. Homeschooling a gifted child can feel nearly impossible at times. It is so difficult to find a balance between keeping them challenged without killing their natural curiousity. I was told by a psychologist who works with gifted children that I have to be flexible. I have to be willing to chuck a curriculum when it isn't working. I have to accept that he might burn through a curriculum in months or weeks, so I need to be ready to accelerate him often.

 

How long have you been homeschooling? Have you maybe not figured out yet what makes him tick? Or if you have been homeschooling since the beginning, could it be time for a change? Sometimes I just back way off on all formal schooling. Well I continue with math, but ease off on the rest of our schedule to allow him some time to just be a kid and explore things that might interest him. It seems to recharge his batteries.

 

If my ds is objecting a lot to school, I try very hard to evaluate if the objection is from laziness or boredom. More often than not, it's boredom.

 

Hang in there! I feel your frustration, and I hope you can find a solution that works for the whole family!

[stephanie]

All I've succeeded to do with my son is turn him off learning.

Sigh.

Public school could not have done worse.

 

He's got 'output problems' and is just plain lazy to boot. So, in an effort to thwart his laziness, and force him to give me some tangible proofs that he's done some work, I've totally turned him off learning.

 

Now it's impacting our relationship, and my dd's homeschooling is suffering from it. But sending him to school isn't really a possibility. He'd be put in 4th grade, regardless of his level, while he's already tackling algebra, and knows more history, Latin and Greek than the average elementary teacher. He'd be totally bored and I'll feel guilty. And I couldn't take him out again, at least not easily, due to a &%$*^%* school board that is not open to homeschooling.

 

Sigh.. How do I get the laziness out of the boy, and love of learning back in?

 

I have a ds12 who was beginning to not like learning. So this year I sat with him and asked him what he wanted to focus on this year. Of course we still had to do the basics, but I let him help in choosing certain curriculums or studies. Today he really needed to finish his math, but my other dc found a dead hawk in the yard so I told him to go and check it out. He took a nice long break from his regular schedule just to ponder on what could have happened to the hawk, how beautiful it was, and then asked if we could dissect it. I was happy that he was interested, but we definitely couldn't dissect it since I'm not sure how it died. I know it is saddening sometimes b/c one of my goals of homeschooling is for my kids to love to learn, but it just isn't always like that. I've told my ds12 that it is what it is. He has to learn math, writing, and basic skills to make it later so we have to have a positive attitude about it. Later in life he will be expected to work diligently with a good attitude so we work on it now. I do try to change his days a bit when I see him getting bored with the routine of school. I know this may not be much help, but I just wanted you to know that I think we all as hs'ing moms face times when we feel just like you do. Ask him what he thinks would interest him and maybe that will get the ball rolling! HTH!

[Beth in Central TX]

You know, I've had a ten-year old boy in our house for the past 2 years now, and I really think that their "attitude" is just part of that awkward age between being a little (or young) boy and being a teenage boy.

 

My older boys continue to turn in very sloppy work that is done in haste so that they can go play. They know very well that sloppy work will be redone, and playtime will be forfeited if they do this, but it has continued. When the consequences hit, "life is so unfair" and "school interferes too much with playtime".

 

Dealing with them at this age has been challenging, and I almost enrolled them in private school this past summer. My husband and I agree that we plan to homeschool them through high school, so he has kept me grounded in our convictions, and has talked me down many times from doing something in the heat of the moment.

 

On the bright side, my 11-year old will be 12 this summer. I've seen some maturity spark in him that has given me hope that we will get through this stage. Only two more to go...

 

I don't know if any of this helped, but I just wanted you to know that you're not alone.

[Sharon in MD]

I wish I could give you a gi-normous hug over the internet. :)

 

My ds is in high school, so I only pop over here now and then, but I've felt like you are describing on more than one occasion. My son is not as gifted as your science boy, but I do identify with the output issues and laziness and having a math-science boy. Since I'm almost on the graduating side of things, I hope you will let me offer a small suggestion.

 

I have never regretted the times when I've backed off a bit, but I have regretted the times when I have pushed too hard. It is so hard to see the forest when we are in the middle of "it" with them and now, many years later, I can see where I could have backed off and let things be fun again. Your kids are young and have a lifetime of achievement ahead of them. It is so easy to be overly focused on what we think they "need" to do or "need" to get done. Would it be possible to take a break? I know that different areas of the country have different requirements...but, at the age of your kids, I bet you could "get away" with a breather.

 

Please forgive me if I've overstepped my bounds.....I just wish I'd been willing to breath a bit more when my science guy was younger, because the opportunities to do that diminish when they are in high school if you are in a more organized kind of program.

 

Offered humbly,

[Nan in Mass]

That is the way they are made. I have found that when my children are "lazy", it usually means that I am asking them to do something that is very very hard, often beyond their strength. The output thing is terribly difficult. It isn't that they are really being lazy about something that would be easy for them. This is very hard to believe, but I think it is true, at least of my children. I think I know the point that you are at. I crossed that point with my older son when he began 9th grade, high school here, and I upped my expectations, suddenly from his point of view. We spent a rather miserable fall until he got the hang of putting a title and date on every paper, writing out more than half a sentence in answer to a question, showing all the steps in math, writing more than a paragraph for a paper, and horror of all horrors, elaborating on things. His younger brother is 4 years behind him and about equal to him in input, but way, way behind him in output. At about 15 or 16, the output picks up and begins to look better, judging by my two older sons. I know you can't wait that long GRIN, so I have a few suggestions, things I'm doing with my youngest son. I began by insisting on a title and date at the top of every page. When he had that down, I began insisting he keep an assignment book. When he was managing that and no longer mad at me for it, I began insisting that he check things off in it. From there I slowly added, one at a time, not tackling the next thing on the list until anger at the first tapered off and he was used to the new expectations:

 

Punctuation at all times, even in a subject that isn't English, like Latin or science

At least some words have to be spelled correctly if I am ever going to have to look at the paper

All papers have the holes on the left and the big space on the top and are whole

Use the next page in his math notebook and keep the cardboard in the back so everything is the same way up

Put any finished papers in the box awaiting filing

Use full sentences

Show the steps for math problems

Write the basic equation first, then rewrite it with the numbers filled in, and THEN write the answer for science problems

Take a few notes now and then

Actually go back and review those notes now and then

Make flashcards and use them

Actually memorize the stuff for Latin rather than just relying on what seems right

Have a topic sentence for reports

Write a report or story or something each week, about a page long

Write the report on something that he doesn't know, taking a few notes as he looks up the info

Write down any experiments he makes up in a lab notebook in something vaguely resembling lab report form

 

And that is as far along as we are now.

I hope this list is some comfort to you LOL.

Output is something that comes slowly and happens later, even for most very bright children. You should see my nephew's public school output. (and he is very bright indeed)

 

Perhaps you, like me, have raised your expectations suddenly because he is 10 now. If I were you, I'd back off a bit and begin to make the changes a tiny bit at a time so he doesn't notice it quite so much. And I hate to sound pessimistic, but at about algebra level, academic work tends to take more tedious hard work to achieve the higher goals, and it just plain isn't going to be as fun any more, and you son probably just plain isn't going to like it as well any more. I try to talk about how it is ok not to like something, to just do it anyway as a means to an end (like plugging through algebra as a means to solve interesting physics problems and be able to read more interesting physics books). It takes a certain emotional maturity to put up with lots of the tedious difficult stuff in order to get to a particular goal. If he just plain isn't old enough, then perhaps you can go for breadth instead of depth? You could add more subjects at an introductory, fun level. We've done some of this, adding in some geology, astronomy, programming, cartooning, music, another language orally, and if all else fails, just keep on reading with no output science and history and literature, or going for some of the hands-on science, letting him make up his own experiments. The output is necessary for math and some science in depth, but it isn't really for literature and history and introductory sciences.

 

You have all my sympathy. This is very hard, I know, and I struggle with it every day. I'm surprised I still have a tongue, I've bitten it so many times in an effort not to critisize.

 

-Nan

[Storm Bay]

Oh, Cleo, I do feel for you!!! But so many boys just hate school. My ds, for eg. And the boys in the neighbourhood who go to ps feel the same way. But it's my dd, 12, who does a lot like your ds. She just hates most of school and has for years. It started in public school, btw, so don't blame yourself.

 

As for my dd, some things she does love. Mostly swimming and art, but also logic and thinking. Aren't you going to give your ds that liberation handbook when he gets older? Have you ever read the book by Martha Hartnett Kennedy? You may wish to give it a go for a few helpful ideas. I completely understand why you want to stay where you are, but if it gets really bad, you may wish to reconsider moving to Ottawa. I'm not sure how far you are from there now and I won't say it's convenient, but then you might have more options.

[JeanM]

Sorry you are struggling, I'm in the same boat. My ds also has severe "output problems". I guess I'm not in the same boat since homeschooling is definitely legal here!

 

No brilliant ideas, but deep sympathy here.

 

Jean

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Thank you everyone. Please pray for me as we 'attack' the last day of the week.

 

Nan, I *love* your list. I'll start implementing it on Monday - not on a Friday, it wouldn't be fair to the kids. I am so glad I can benefit from those who've been there before !

 

whybenormal -> my kids have always been homeschooled. My son was in daycare for 18 months, but we took him out before he could start kindergarten. My daughter was never institutionalised.

 

Karin -> I read the Liberation Handbook, and came to the conclusion that I don't agree with it. I have no confidence in my son. Even now, when we do 'free school', he would rather circle the living room for an hour than to sit down and do something productive. He was happy with the concept of 'free school' until I told him I needed him to give me a trace of his learning. Not for me, but for the courts if it ever comes to that. That was the end of his enjoying free school. "What? I have to work? "

Sigh...

[CalicoKat]

not that I want to minimize what you're feeling. But please don't forget that our emotions tend to get depressed at this time of the year.

 

Go back to the beginning and remember the good things that have happened this year--however small. Progress is just one step at a time. Write them down in a journal for next time you get down.

 

And then get a big bar of Toblerone, a cup of hot tea, a bunch of candles, and a good book. Fill the bath tub with suds and don't get out until the water turns cold and your treats are gone. Pamper yourself a bit.

 

Then make any decisions you need.

(hugs)

[Desert Rat]

Coming in a bit late, but wanted to let you know that this too in time shall pass. As you said, public school wouldn't do any better. In fact they probably would have made it sooo much worse. Hang in there. It's bound to get better.

FWIW, I usually take a bit of a break from the stuff that Huck really hates and let him do some "fun" school for a week or two. This is usually Top Secret Adventures (lots of mind puzzles) and independent study stuff. Extra science, extra crafts. Then after the break, I realize that we both really needed one and things get better.

You know your son and you know what's best for him. Rest assured and deep cleansing breaths!

Happy Friday!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Kalah > I've tried that already. But he really doesn't want to do anything but play on the computer or on his Nintendo DS (what a mistake that was to get him a console for Christmas!)

 

Calicokat > you're absolutely right. It's February. I always want to put him in school in November and in February. Thanks to my DH for pointing it out, year after year ;-)

Yet, this year it feels worse than the other years.

 

So today, I yelled at him more than three times, put two of his toys in toy prison. Toy prison got his attention, he finally got to work after a crying episode.

 

Sigh... this job is so much harder now than it was when I started.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

On the other hand, he's currently teaching his sister how to play chess...

It's not ALL bad ;-)

[JennW in SoCal]

Have you ever heard of the book The Myth of Laziness, by Mel Levine? He has also written a book called All Kinds of Minds. Your son may not have a learning disability, but calling a bright child "lazy" is often considered a warning sign that there is something amiss, nothing serious, but a learning challenge. My ds is gifted and learning disabled, and it can look like he is being lazy because he is so bright, engaging and articulate yet so slow with the "output". It seems like he is simply being obstinate.

 

You may not want to go down that rabbit hole of testing and deciding if there is a disability, but please do consider that it isn't paramount at 10 to be big on "output". A little output goes a long way, and it doesn't have to be written on paper. Why not give him a camera and let him take photos of his projects? He can download the photos to the computer and make a slide show with a narrative. What about a video camera? You could interview him on a video, capture all the things he does and thinks about.

 

My son with the gifts and disabilities, is 16 and about to graduate from high shcool. When he was 12, he could barely write a 3 sentence narration, but we kept at it, slow and study -- once a week, sometimes even less. Today he writes well, though it does take him awhile, but he can turn out a great essay. He still makes video presentations for his classes in addition to writing assignments, as he far prefers a visual representation of his thoughts and ideas.

 

I do feel your pain! Even though this ds is a great kid and doing well, he hates most anything academic, but is resigned to having to plow through subjects like biology and geometry. There are still those days where I feel like jumping off a cliff in frustration! Hang in there!

 

Btw, you should revisit the Teenage Liberation Handbook when your ds is 14 or so -- project based learning has been the greatest gift I have provided to my son through homeschooling.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I do have The Myth of Laziness in my bookshelf (my real bookshelf, that is) and I have read it.

I do think my son has some aspect of ADD, but we're not willing to medicate. He *is* capable of giving me output if he's interested. He routinely gives me 3 pages (handwritten) stories when the subject is something of interest. But he will refuse to write 2 sentences in his science notebook. I know he can. He's just not motivated.

[JennW in SoCal]

ADD isn't really a deficit of attention, it is more a poor regulation of attention. And it is a REAL handicap, not simply a character issue, which is what Mel Levine preaches in his writing. Medicating is a tough decision, and we held off until our ds was 12, I think, choosing instead to modify his environment. School is far easier for him on stimulants, the mental fatigue just doesn't kick in, yet because of side effects, he hasn't used them much recently, and we don't feel the need to experiment until finding the right drug and dosage. Sometimes a cup of coffee is sufficient, and he is also now mature enough to know that he has to muddle through and complete certain assignments.

 

But, that motivation thing, or lack of motivation, is what absolutely kills me too. Same story with my ds -- he CAN write, he CAN produce pages, but if it is one of those hated subjects, it is a tortuous process for us all. We started outsourcing some classes starting in middle school, hired a tutor other times, simply so he had the motivation of having to answer to someone other then mom.

 

In the meantime, really, don't push it too much because it is only going to make you both miserable, and it won't improve his output. You've got to survive puberty in a few years, and that's going to through a whole new monkey wrench into the situation. I would swear my ds only had brain stem functions for a least 12 months of his life as there was no higher level thinking going on -- it was eat, sleep, and zone out. The cameras, both still and video, worked wonders for him, kept me from utterly despairing as he produced some wonderful, creative stuff during those times when he couldn't (wouldln't) produce written work.

 

I did find that rewards were a great motivator for my ds. If there was a checklist of schoolwork, he'd earn video game time for each item completed. I know people frown on rewards, but with some kids it is the only thing that will work.

 

And YOU need some kind of reward too, for those long days spent cooped up with a smart and challenging son!

[Desert Rat]

I'm so sorry, Cleo. I do know what you mean about the dreaded games. We made the mistake of getting a gameboy a little over a year ago. There isn't a day that passes that I don't regret that decision. And worse, the gameboy is older now and he wants an Advance. We've created a monster.

I hope it gets better for you.

[Storm Bay]

I must have mixed up who is planning to do that! Sorry--I don't agree with it all, either, certainly not at this point. I think my dd is way too young to take this upon herself. Perhaps if she knocks off all her requisite courses and is repsonsible by her last year or two, then I'll let her take charge. If I agree with the book.

[Old Dominion Heather]

My guys lost the Wii and all television except on weekends (when they don't really have much time to watch anyway.) We do "toy vacation" instead of prison, although I like prison better. The train tracks are currently on vacation over the fact that no one would pick them up and put them away when asked. My rule is, if it is too hard for them to clean up, they are too young for it. The LEGOS have spent quite a bit of time on vacation.

 

I have no advice. Mine are all younger than yours. Maybe hormones? My dh was homeschooled and he says that he would have done nothing if he hadn't been forced to do it by his dad. He wasn't scared enough of his mom to work much!

[fishnoises]

I never heard of this input and output explanation on how our kids are learning. I like it. I don't like the lack of output from the older ones (8 and 10). I do like that I don't have to feel guilty about not doing EVERYTHING that is on the schedule! I use an assigment sheet too. I have a clipboard for each kid and the weekly assigment sheet is attached. They love to cross off each assignment that is done! I tried a school schedule date book last year, but it took up too much room on the bookshelves.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Sigh. Monday morning, it's not even 9 o'clock.

I just told my son he has to spend the whole day in his room, I don't want him with me, and he's going to school next year.

 

Sigh...

 

This is really impacting our relationship, his total laziness. This morning, it wasn't even school work. I asked him to help with laundry. His answer? No, I'll wait till you're done so you can teach me math.

 

ARGH!!!

[nmoira]

 

This is really impacting our relationship, his total laziness.

Sorry to hear your week has started out so badly, though it does sound as if you've hit the nail on the head here -- there's something going on other/more than the schooling. If there's friction in your relationship that's spilling over to schooling (or the other way round), perhaps temporarily ceding part of the responsibility to him might help you find a way to heal your relationship. You say you don't trust him to do it on his own, so even temporary unschooling would probably be too uncomfortable for you, but is it possible to sign him up for some correspondence courses and allow him to fail or succeed according to someone else's standards?

[chai]

Hi Cleo,

 

I've been thinking about the laziness issue. I kept wanting to post something because I'm dealing with this with my dd too. (It seems like I'm dealing with all the issues at once!) I just don't have any answers. Anyway, in my search for some answers I found this article The L Word: Is Your Child Lazy? There might be a few nuggets to pull to help you out. I found lots of good articles on this site (Today's Parent).