Limited Dual Enrollment Hours?

[Michelle_NC]

Just curious if anyone else has run into the issue of CC limiting how many dual enrollment classes your student can take in a given semester.

 

I just submitted all the paperwork for spring semester and dd was only registered for 2 of the 4 requested classes.  I sent a nicely worded email to the administrator of her program thinking it was an oversight and was told that there is a limit of 2 courses per semester.  They *might* be able to authorize 3, but she would need to check with the director. (Our state waives tuition and we are responsible for books and fees).

 

We were told that there was a limit for the first semester to see if they could maintain the required GPA, but how in the world would a student complete a 32-40 hour program taking 2 classes a semester in their Junior/Senior years?  i called the state headquarters for this program and she thought 18 hours per semester was the maximum, but also said that each school can make their own rules on this aspect.

 

How would you approach this?  Our plan was for her to finish the basic 32 hours in three semesters and then have the last semester open to take extra classes that will transfer to a 4-year university.

 

Grrrrrr ....

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes at our CC there is a limit of 6 credits per semester for high school students taking courses.  This means that a math and a science with lab would put the student a credit over.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about finishing a 32-40 credit program.  Here, the high school special program (that is their name for concurrent enrollment) is not generally intended to have the student complete a full AA degree while still a high school student.  If the dual enrollment program you're looking at is different, then emailing the director is a good idea.

 

On the other hand, I am thankful that I was able to get my son into CC at all.  There are several different and independent CC districts in our (large) county.  Some of the other CC districts have not permitted high school students to register for a couple years because the colleges are too full of regular CC students. 

 

ETA: I just double checked, and the CC slightly north of us, has only enrolled high school students who attend special partnership high schools since 2011 (ie, no other high schoolers).  Even the students from the partner high schools are only allowed one college course per semester.

 

 

 

[Michelle_NC]

We have college transfer pathways that require particular classes to complete.  The AA has 32 and the AS has 33 plus an optional 8 for foreign language. (so 40 and 43 total)

http://www.nccommunitycolleges.edu/sites/default/files/state-board/program/prog_11_ccp_college_transfer_pathway_revisions_.pdf

 

After high school students complete a pathway, they are allowed to take classes outside of the restricted list.

 

[Melissa B]

Yes. Both the community college and the local university have limits on dual enrollment. The university only allows ten credits per term and the community college only allows four classes per term. The community college allows petitions for specific circumstances. We will need to petition for my dd 14 if she still wants to get an AA her senior year. She will need two additional classes as the comm. college only allows dual enrollment your junior and senior year.

[Joker]

Here, they can only take 10 hours per semester. They can get special approval to be enrolled full time their senior year and there are some academies within the public schools that allow for more hours (many in the academy for future teachers graduate with an Associate's degree).

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes in some states each college sets their own limits.  I've read, on this board or elsewhere, of homeschoolers attending two colleges for dual enrollment.  I would petition for 3 and then let her consider the summer session if she wants to make up the difference.

[Jane in NC]

In NC it seems that CCs are given some leeway in how to run their dual enrollment program.  My son never had registration issues whereas dual enrollment students attending other CCs were placed at the end of the line and thus limited to those classes with available seats. 

 

When my son was a dual enrollment student, I believe that our CC was permitting high school students to take 3 classes (9 or 10 hours). 

[Michelle_NC]

Her program is 40 hours at most.
6 hours x 4 semesters = 24 hours.
Heck, even 9 hours x 4 semesters = 36 hours.

 

Frustrating!!

[Michelle_NC]

Ironically, if we get our paperwork in before registration starts then we get first pick of classes.

 

 

 

 students attending other CCs were placed at the end of the line and thus limited to those classes with available seats. 

 

 

[Jane in NC]

What is going on with NC dual enrollment?  My son had free classes, then only free science or tech.  We had to pay for humanities courses.  Are they back to free tuition?

[Michelle_NC]

They have a new "Career & College Promise" program as of 2/12 that replaces all previous dual enrollment programs.  There are specific pathways that each have a list of required courses.  Once that is completed, students are supposed to be able to take anything else they want.  Some public school students are allowed to stay an extra year and earn a full AA or AS degree. not sure if that is available to homeschool or private school students. Because the program is so new and still  undergoing revision, it's like pulling teeth to get solid information.

 

As far as public school options, we have early college that is primarily for low-income students who's parents did not attend college.  Middle College starts in 11th grade and is limited to 100 students per campus.  Some students try to do the C&CP program with traditional high school, but getting those schedules to mesh is challenging at best.  Near impossible for most.

 

Which leaves homeschooling.  It's a great program if transportation and purchasing textbooks aren't prohibitive.  Homeschoolers can take full advantage of the program but maybe they are also seen as a drain to the system since they have the flexibility to take more classes?  The public schoolers get to use state-owned textbooks and (I think?) don't have to pay the fees, so its completely free for them.

The textbook issue deserves its own post.  CC ENG 111 textbooks: $180.  State university ENG 111 textbooks: $38.  Ditto for math, psychology and art appreciation.  The CCs must be getting major kickbacks from the textbook industry - so far everything has been a custom textbook for this particular cc with an online access code so you have to buy it new.  It's not even the entire textbook - just the chapters they chose to include in a loose-leaf binder.  The online access code has most of the tests so instructors don't even have to create their own or grade them.  

[Michelle_NC]

Despite all my complaining, its been a real blessing for dd and she thoroughly enjoys being there.

 

But as the administrator of this project ... just grrrrrr.  I'm not sure how high school kids would navigate this system on their own because it takes a lot of persistence, asking different people, and hitting things from different angles to make things happen there.  As a small example - dd and I drove to the main campus before classes started and got a parking ticket because her permit (which was on the car) was for the school year that started 3 days later.  Tried to appeal it in person with no luck so we went to the cashier to pay the $5 and be done with it.  The cashier told me to come back in 10 days because it would take that long to get it in the system and she couldn't accept my $ until it showed up on dd's account.  We live 40 minutes away so that would make no sense at all to spend $10 in gas to pay $5.  Or even to pay for the stamp since I was standing right there.

 

Deep breaths  ....

[Melissa B]

Yes in some states each college sets their own limits.  I've read, on this board or elsewhere, of homeschoolers attending two colleges for dual enrollment.  I would petition for 3 and then let her consider the summer session if she wants to make up the difference.

 

Yes, that is what we do here. My eldest is taking 9 credits at the university and an additional 6 at the CC due to credit limits at the university.

[Pawz4me]

They have a new "Career & College Promise" program as of 2/12 that replaces all previous dual enrollment programs.  There are specific pathways that each have a list of required courses.  Once that is completed, students are supposed to be able to take anything else they want.  Some public school students are allowed to stay an extra year and earn a full AA or AS degree. not sure if that is available to homeschool or private school students. Because the program is so new and still  undergoing revision, it's like pulling teeth to get solid information.

 

As far as public school options, we have early college that is primarily for low-income students who's parents did not attend college.  Middle College starts in 11th grade and is limited to 100 students per campus.  Some students try to do the C&CP program with traditional high school, but getting those schedules to mesh is challenging at best.  Near impossible for most.

 

Which leaves homeschooling.  It's a great program if transportation and purchasing textbooks aren't prohibitive.  Homeschoolers can take full advantage of the program but maybe they are also seen as a drain to the system since they have the flexibility to take more classes?  The public schoolers get to use state-owned textbooks and (I think?) don't have to pay the fees, so its completely free for them.

 

The textbook issue deserves its own post.  CC ENG 111 textbooks: $180.  State university ENG 111 textbooks: $38.  Ditto for math, psychology and art appreciation.  The CCs must be getting major kickbacks from the textbook industry - so far everything has been a custom textbook for this particular cc with an online access code so you have to buy it new.  It's not even the entire textbook - just the chapters they chose to include in a loose-leaf binder.  The online access code has most of the tests so instructors don't even have to create their own or grade them.  

 

Regarding the bolded -- In our county's early college high school (in NC) to say that it's "primarily" for low income and/or first generation students wouldn't be exactly correct.  Youngest DS attends early college, and we aren't low income and both DH and I are college graduates.  There are many students at our early college from similar families.  The early college here targets students who fit any of the following profiles:

• Might not otherwise be able to attend college
• First in family to graduate from college (first generation)
• Gap between potential and achievement
• Under served in the college environment
• Motivated
• Responsible
• Above average academically
• Seeking a different high school experience

DS (and many of his class mates) was accepted under the "seeking a different high school experience" category.

 

Also, in our county students/parents are responsible for their own transportation to the early college high school.  So we're in the same boat with that as we would be if we were still homeschooling.  And FWIW, my guess is the need to provide your own transportation is probably a significant factor in why our early college seems to have few low income students.

[Jane in NC]

Regarding the bolded -- In our county's early college high school (in NC) to say that it's "primarily" for low income and/or first generation students wouldn't be exactly correct.  Youngest DS attends early college, and we aren't low income and both DH and I are college graduates.  There are many students at our early college from similar families.  The early college here targets students who fit any of the following profiles:

• Might not otherwise be able to attend college
• First in family to graduate from college (first generation)
• Gap between potential and achievement
• Under served in the college environment
• Motivated
• Responsible
• Above average academically
• Seeking a different high school experience

DS (and many of his class mates) was accepted as an academically above average student who was seeking a different high school experience.

 

Also, in our county students/parents are responsible for their own transportation to the early college high school.  So we're in the same boat with that as we would be if we were still homeschooling.  And FWIW, my guess is the need to provide your own transportation is probably a significant factor in why our early college seems to have few low income students.

 

Our county's early college high school started with the mission of targeting children whose parents had not graduated college.  I am thinking that the Gates Foundation provided seed money so that may have been part of the initial grant.  I know that when my son was of the age to apply, he did not fit their candidate profile.  But the school has changed.

 

That said, I was attending a state wide meeting for an organization with which I am involved when one of my colleagues from another part of NC said that her rural county's early college continues to focus on students whose parents did not attend college.

 

I suspect that early college programs throughout the state vary with local demographics.  This is certainly the case with the CCs.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

Our county's early college high school started with the mission of targeting children whose parents had not graduated college.  I am thinking that the Gates Foundation provided seed money so that may have been part of the initial grant.  I know that when my son was of the age to apply, he did not fit their candidate profile.  But the school has changed.

 

That said, I was attending a state wide meeting for an organization with which I am involved when one of my colleagues from another part of NC said that her rural county's early college continues to focus on students whose parents did not attend college.

 

I suspect that early college programs throughout the state vary with local demographics.  This is certainly the case with the CCs.

 

 

I remember when we we went to the information session they addressed the low income/first in family to attend college target just a little bit.  I wish I could remember the specific percentages more, but what it amounted to IIRC was that they had to attempt to fill a certain number of seats with those students, and the rest of the seats were pretty much open to any student who met the academic requirements (the "seeking a different high school experience" kids).  And if they couldn't fill seats with the targeted percentage of low income/first generation kids, then those seats were opened to the other applicants.  My guess is that because of our county's demographics, lack of public transportation and large geographical size it's probably difficult for them to fill many seats with low income kids.

[Jane in NC]

I remember when we we went to the information session they addressed the low income/first in family to attend college target just a little bit.  I wish I could remember the specific percentages more, but what it amounted to IIRC was that they had to attempt to fill a certain number of seats with those students, and the rest of the seats were pretty much open to any student who met the academic requirements (the "seeking a different high school experience" kids).  And if they couldn't fill seats with the targeted percentage of low income/first generation kids, then those seats were opened to the other applicants.  My guess is that because of our county's demographics, lack of public transportation and large geographical size it's probably difficult for them to fill many seats with low income kids.

 

My county's early college school has really changed since the early days.  To be honest, I would not have wanted my son (now a college grad) to have attended the program in the beginning.  Let's just say it had significant growing pains.

 

Now the traditional high schools are offering dual enrollment courses on their campuses as an alternative to AP classes--in part because it has become really tough to be accepted at the Early College school!

 

As an aside to the OP, when my son took CC classes via dual enrollment, his fellow students included some early college kids, some traditionally aged college students, and a number of non-traditionals. Be prepared for some interesting dinner time discussions!

 

[Michelle_NC]

Yes - she really enjoys the eclectic mix of students in her classes!  There are two grandmothers, ex-military, traditional students, young single moms, etc. Really interesting class discussion because people bring all types of life experience with them.

 

We went to an informational meeting for early college several years ago and were told that because H and I are college graduates, the odds of dd getting in were very small (our county provides bus transportation). Middle college is traditionally for the kids who need something different and its extremely competitive.  They only accept 50 new students each year and get upwards of 600/700 applications at each location.

[SeaConquest]

Yes at our CC there is a limit of 6 credits per semester for high school students taking courses. This means that a math and a science with lab would put the student a credit over.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about finishing a 32-40 credit program. Here, the high school special program (that is their name for concurrent enrollment) is not generally intended to have the student complete a full AA degree while still a high school student. If the dual enrollment program you're looking at is different, then emailing the director is a good idea.

 

On the other hand, I am thankful that I was able to get my son into CC at all. There are several different and independent CC districts in our (large) county. Some of the other CC districts have not permitted high school students to register for a couple years because the colleges are too full of regular CC students.

 

ETA: I just double checked, and the CC slightly north of us, has only enrolled high school students who attend special partnership high schools since 2011 (ie, no other high schoolers). Even the students from the partner high schools are only allowed one college course per semester.

I thought taking the CHSPE gets you around this problem, no?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought taking the CHSPE gets you around this problem, no?

It might.

 

We are new to CA so I'm still figuring a lot of things out. I'm not clear if there is a downside to taking the CHSPE. I don't want to graduate my son yet.

 

The Outreach office at the CC hasn't been that reliable a source of information.

[mom31257]

The tuition available in GA is for up to 15 hours of classes, so I'm assuming dd could take that many. She only applied to take two this semester. Nothing she needs next semester is offered on campus, just online. We might have her take one course because I'm just not sure she'll benefit much from 2-3 online classes which we aren't guaranteed will transfer out of state. I am thinking her focus next semester should be on the life skills she needs to leave home and be at college versus acquiring more classroom skills. 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

It might.

 

We are new to CA so I'm still figuring a lot of things out. I'm not clear if there is a downside to taking the CHSPE. I don't want to graduate my son yet.

 

The Outreach office at the CC hasn't been that reliable a source of information.

 

You don't have to graduate your child early after passing the CHSPE. I know people who've had their kids take the CHSPE at 11 or 12 but not graduate them until 17 or 18. My understanding is that the student takes CC courses as a "non-degree seeking" student. The parent provides high school credit to the child via the PSA school and the child has the option of applying to a 4 year university as a freshman or getting the Associate's and transferring as a junior. We're not quite there yet but DD is taking the CHSPE in March to open up the possibility of starting classes as soon as next fall. There are a bunch of possibilities we're exploring for her and right now I don't know what is going to happen.

[momto2Cs]

Looking at our local cc/junior college, high school students can take up to 11 units per semester, fall and spring, and only 6 units during the summer. They can petition to take more, but that invloves letters of recommendation, etc. And high school students don't get any priority registration times, even if they do well. I didn't see anything on the website about taking the CHSPE, but they do recommend taking at least the English placement test, as many classes have a base requirement there.

[SeaConquest]

Crimson Wife and others, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you pay full cost, get regular priority, and don't have the credit limitations if you take the CHSPE.

[Crimson Wife]

Yes, courses are full tuition if the student has passed the CHSPE and is registering not as a DE high school student. The flip side, however, is that the student can actually register ahead of time rather than waiting until the class starts to see if there is room. Also, many CC's in my area only allow DE high school students to take classes off a very restricted list. My understanding is that passing the CHSPE means the student can enroll in whatever he/she likes assuming that he/she has met the general pre-reqs.

 

I have also heard through the grapevine that after a student has successfully completed 6 units at the CC, he/she can take a certain number of courses at Cal State and the UC's paying just the CC tuition rate. This is secondhand information so definitely check with the local CC for the details.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes, courses are full tuition if the student has passed the CHSPE and is registering not as a DE high school student. The flip side, however, is that the student can actually register ahead of time rather than waiting until the class starts to see if there is room. Also, many CC's in my area only allow DE high school students to take classes off a very restricted list. My understanding is that passing the CHSPE means the student can enroll in whatever he/she likes assuming that he/she has met the general pre-reqs.

 

I have also heard through the grapevine that after a student has successfully completed 6 units at the CC, he/she can take a certain number of courses at Cal State and the UC's paying just the CC tuition rate. This is secondhand information so definitely check with the local CC for the details.

Hmm this may be one of those things that vary by cc district.

Ours limits high schoolers to 6 credits, does not have a tuition break, but also does let them register before classes start.

 

My ds registered in one of the last groups, because he was a new student, but there were plenty of high school grads registering that day too. The only limitation on course selection was prerequisite requirements including the math and reading placement test.

 

The CHPSE might lift the credit limit but it wouldn't change the price.

[quark]

Yes, courses are full tuition if the student has passed the CHSPE and is registering not as a DE high school student. The flip side, however, is that the student can actually register ahead of time rather than waiting until the class starts to see if there is room. Also, many CC's in my area only allow DE high school students to take classes off a very restricted list. My understanding is that passing the CHSPE means the student can enroll in whatever he/she likes assuming that he/she has met the general pre-reqs.

 

I have also heard through the grapevine that after a student has successfully completed 6 units at the CC, he/she can take a certain number of courses at Cal State and the UC's paying just the CC tuition rate. This is secondhand information so definitely check with the local CC for the details.

 

Some new requirements were introduced in fall 2014 requiring new community college students to go through several steps before registration, and in our experience, limiting choices or making it rushed for my post-CHSPE student. Try to enroll as early as you can. Due to the new requirements, although DS enrolled early he was only able to register for classes about 3 weeks after his orientation date (due to some weird online system rules) and about a month or so behind priority groups such as veterans. As a result he almost didn't make it into a class he wanted. Fortunately, he turned up as a waitlisted student on the first day of class and was given an add code by the instructor. All the classes with good instructors are snapped up very quickly and sometimes, the online registration system hangs up, delaying registering even more!

 

Regarding the bolded, depending on the CC there might be additional requirements like having a math or english prerequisite fulfilled in addition to the number of units (in kiddo's CC's case, the requirement according to one counselor is 20 units, not 6, but I am still fuzzy on the details...apparently he may also take courses for free from a UC and we are currently trying to obtain more information on that).

 

ETA: This page has some info on the cross enrollment option, but is different from what we discovered after speaking to a counselor at kiddo's college.

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/transfer/requirements/types-enrollment/

[quark]

Crimson Wife and others, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that you pay full cost, get regular priority, and don't have the credit limitations if you take the CHSPE.

 

With the caveat that it might depend on the CC...

 

After passing the CHSPE and showing proof by attaching a copy of the certificate of proficiency (or perhaps in some cases the original cert...you can order extra certs and score reports from the CHSPE if needed), you do pay full cost and don't have credit limitations (make sure you have checked a box that says with certificate of proficiency or as a regular student, not a box that says DE/ concurrent enrollment as a high school student -- if you want to keep options open, you don't have to say you are seeking a degree, you can say it's for personal enrichment etc).

 

However regular priority might depend on academic standing. The student might not be on high priority for the first semester (that priority is given to veterans etc.). Kiddo was only able to register about a week to 10 days before high school juniors/ seniors so many of the good instructors were already snapped up...but I've heard that after a semester or two, he could gain higher priority status by maintaining good grades.

[Laura in CA]

I have also heard through the grapevine that after a student has successfully completed 6 units at the CC, he/she can take a certain number of courses at Cal State and the UC's paying just the CC tuition rate. This is secondhand information so definitely check with the local CC for the details.

 

Wow, that would have been good to know about! We paid for (upper-division) CSU classes for my son his senior year in HS b/c he'd maxed out the CC classes. OTOH, looking at the link quark provided, it looks like you have to be "enrolled" at the CC ...

 

 

Hmm this may be one of those things that vary by cc district.

Ours limits high schoolers to 6 credits, does not have a tuition break, but also does let them register before classes start.

 

My ds registered in one of the last groups, because he was a new student, but there were plenty of high school grads registering that day too. The only limitation on course selection was prerequisite requirements including the math and reading placement test.

 

The CHPSE might lift the credit limit but it wouldn't change the price.

 

 

We're also in CA, and our CC is pretty much the opposite :) -- credit limit is 11 units, and classes are free. DE students register (new policy) only 7-10 days before classes start (they used to register a good month or two before classes start).

 

 

Regarding the bolded, depending on the CC there might be additional requirements like having a math or english prerequisite fulfilled in addition to the number of units (in kiddo's CC's case, the requirement according to one counselor is 20 units, not 6, but I am still fuzzy on the details...apparently he may also take courses for free from a UC and we are currently trying to obtain more information on that).

 

ETA: This page has some info on the cross enrollment option, but is different from what we discovered after speaking to a counselor at kiddo's college.

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/transfer/requirements/types-enrollment/

 

It's too late for us now, but it's interesting that the info on the website you link to is different from what you heard from a counselor ... That's (conflicting information) why we never took advantage of the CHSPE option (unlike most of my son's friends, all of whom seem to have used either the CHSPE or age-18+ option). As someone said upthread -- it's not completely clear that there won't be consequences to having used the CHSPE. Crimson Wife is right -- a student who passes the CHSPE must be treated by the CC as a high-school graduate, BUT the homeschool/school does NOT have to graduate the student. However, it wasn't clear to me that the universities my son applied to (and he wanted to start as a freshman) would see it that way (i.e., that he took the CC/CSU classes as a high-school student, even if the CC/CSU considered him a regular, albeit non-degree-seeking student).

Also, when we in CA say "full price," it isn't anywhere near the prices being mentioned in the "Holy tuition, Batman" thread right now. Full price is still $46/unit.

[quark]

It's too late for us now, but it's interesting that the info on the website you link to is different from what you heard from a counselor ... That's (conflicting information) why we never took advantage of the CHSPE option (unlike most of my son's friends, all of whom seem to have used either the CHSPE or age-18+ option). As someone said upthread -- it's not completely clear that there won't be consequences to having used the CHSPE. Crimson Wife is right -- a student who passes the CHSPE must be treated by the CC as a high-school graduate, BUT the homeschool/school does NOT have to graduate the student. However, it wasn't clear to me that the universities my son applied to (and he wanted to start as a freshman) would see it that way (i.e., that he took the CC/CSU classes as a high-school student, even if the CC/CSU considered him a regular, albeit non-degree-seeking student).

Also, when we in CA say "full price," it isn't anywhere near the prices being mentioned in the "Holy tuition, Batman" thread right now. Full price is still $46/unit.

 

:hurray: Yes! We are paying "full price" and son is able to learn to his heart's content (4 subjects) for about the same price that I was paying a tutor for ONE subject! About the cross enrollment, my son spoke to the counselor by himself and didn't to think to ask more layered questions. I wasn't able to ask her as I wasn't with him. I am thinking of going to the student office this week to inquire (hope they'll let me as a parent).

 

I suspect (if Cal is still his goal a few years from now) that it might be easier to go in as a transfer student but if he wants to apply as a freshman, I'm not sure how we are going to navigate that yet...hoping I'll figure that out before it's time to apply. :tongue_smilie: