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Child who pushes to your limit


lauraw4321
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My 4 year old has always been more stubborn/opinionated, etc. then my other children. I try to practice patience and flexibility. But the child cannot accept a "no." Everything is a negotiation. And after 8 hours of it, I Lose It more frequently than I would like.

 

I can give examples, but each instance probably doesn't seem like that big of a deal. It's the incessant nature of it. When I feel myself starting to lose my cool, I frequently put myself in time out. Often she follows me wherever I have gone screams at me and kicks the door until I come out. She will not go to timeout and will not go to her room. I do sometimes physically force her into her room, but then she screams and kicks her door.

 

I will admit that I have spanked her in the past. However that is not an option. My anger frightened me. And it was not at all effective.

 

This behavior is reserved only for her family. She goes to a play-based preschool three times a week and to a gymnastics class once a week. She never has any issues following directions getting along in those settings.

 

When things are very bad, they only get better when I eventually lose my cool and scream at her. She cries for a bit then comes down and wants to hug. I hate this pattern. She takes up so much more of my time and mental effort than my other two children do, one of whom is a nine-month-old. I feel very guilty for how she takes away my time from her sisters. This behavior has been nearly identical and unchanging for the past two years. I would appreciate some kindly worded new ideas. I am very tired of trying the same thing and failing.

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I don't know that I have much to add right now. Its been a long day and my mind is a bit fuzzy.  But I wanted to send you a hug.  DD14 was similar in some ways.  Certainly very draining to raise in the early years especially.  Just wanted to give you some hope.  Now that she is 14 we are very close.  Things will never be perfect.  We are human beings.  We make mistakes.  We have different personalities that are not always compatible.  But our relationship has blossomed in ways I honestly had given up hope would ever happen.  I enjoy her company and she mine and we find things in common to do on many occasions.  We smile at each other across a room as we get a secret joke we both share.  We will watch sunrises together, since we are the early risers.  And now that we are homeschooling (2 years and a bit more) she and I have come to understand each other better.  

 

All this to say, I understand what you are going through.  I wish better days for the future for you and your child and I hope those better days come very, very soon (as in this evening :) ).

 

Hugs and best wishes.  Wish I could do more.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

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My son was like this.  I don't any answers...but I do hope you can find a way to work through this.  At this point, the main thing I regret about raising my son is the yelling I did.  ;0(

Wish I could have a do-over on that. 

 

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I'm in the same boat with my son. It is exhausting and I sometimes question what I have done wrong. I also struggle with knowing if it is just behavior we have to learn to manage or if there is something wrong and I should be seeking therapy or meds for. We have had a bad day today too. I have found that lack of sleep or not eating and drinking enough does make a difference, however even knowing that there are times when I can't get him.to sleep more or eat. Sorry for venting on your post! I guess I just want you to know you're not alone!

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What if it was just ok for her to have feelings (loudly) while at home? What if that just didn't actually require much of your time, attention or interaction.

 

Could you try just saying, basically, "I understand what's bothering you. It's ok that it's bothering you. Everything is fine. Your feeling is perfectly welcome here." Then carry on as if to demonstrate that the day is still normal, but also occasionally checking in with her to show kindness and sympathy. Basically be 'there for her' while her reactions run their course.

 

She will try to ask you questions and make you engage in negotiation -- but you don't have to. Honest, you don't. It's odd not to follow the conversation, but it can be done. You can just comment on how you care that she is upset, and offer her something to eat, to drink, to do, etc. She wants you to argue with her, but she might as well shout at the moon... No response (on the topic) just plenty of kind sympathy for her feeling storm.

 

It will eventually peter out... They can't go on forever!

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Hugs. I have one of these. I'm tired and at my limit most of the time.

 

I watch his diet like a hawk because he reacts to dairy, gluten, and legumes, and all cause mood/behavioral changes in addition to physical problems.

Food coloring, which has no impact on his brothers, turns him into a crazy man. What I mean is that when not exposed to food coloring, he tantrums for a minute or two, a hundred times a day. On food coloring, those tantrums are 30 minute of screaming and kicking, with barely a break between. He cannot turn them off.

 

Intense exercise (3 hours at the park) calms him a bit, but it's hard to fit in to our lives.

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Have you considered sending her to public school when she is old enough? (I say this not because she is "bad" and needs to be sent away, so please do not take it that way.) All kids are different and sometimes breathing space for both parent and child is a good thing. I love my younger son dearly and part of me would really like to homeschool him, but I know it would be a detriment to our relationship. He talks ALL THE TIME and pushes my buttons. He is doing well in school and because we are not together 24/7, I have much more patience with him. 

 

 

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I don't know that I have any advice, but you're not alone. My 4 year old DD takes me to the limit many days. It's hard to describe it...she's just a lot. A lot of noise, a lot of brains, a lot of emotions, a lot of activity and need for feedback. I'm an introvert who needs quiet. She once told me, "I hate the quiet. It makes me feel funny." (I'm currently wondering if there's sensory processing-thing).

 

Anyway, for us, a lot of it is just personality differences with a lack of self control (sometimes on her part and sometimes on mine). I've found that giving her emotions words is helpful (unless I interrupt her...then all h%#@ breaks loose). "Oooh. I bet that's frustrating." "That would make me really mad, too."

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I wonder if she is seeking intensity. Perhaps when you react calmly to her she just keeps pushing until she gets the intensity. She might be seeking intensity badly enough that she would rather take negative sensitivity than have nothing. I kind of have a button-pusher like this, although not one who would scream and kick doors.

 

I have read books about intense children and the general recommendation is to give her enough positive intensity so that she doesn't seek out negative intensity.  Not fun for an ISTJ parent . . . I probably have failed at this fairly regularly, but my button-pusher started improving around 15yo.

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If she seeks intensity, an idea in my family is that "scary masks" are a way to make me scream.

 

They don't believe I'm scared, but the standard game around masks is that I really will actually scream at my top volume (wow, I'm loud!) -- then comically pretend to be scared. I think the ability to *make* me scream, in a good way, is good for satisfying a child who seeks an intense reaction. It's worth it.

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When you have a child like this you need to work extra hard to make sure you've taken care of yourself, because you will lose it and you will not be able to provide care to other members of the family.

 

For me that means exercise. I must carve a section of the day to do this. Right now that's very early morning, but do not be afraid to do it in the middle of the day if that better for you (it's OK to institute quiet time or allow videos to babysit). I used to feel guilty about taking time for myself away from my family responsiblities. However, taking time means I am a better mom and wife. Do not feel guilty. Do find the time to do the thing that recharges your body and mind. If you regularly do what you need to do to recharge, your capacity to remain calm around an intense child will increase.

 

Get the intense child exercise. A lot. If the child does not naturally choose exercise, require sports participation and seek out regular exercise outlets. Could she have sensory issues? Gymnastics and swimming can both be intense and help with sensory problems. Consider a total diet clean up. Dietary intervention was not the be all end all in my house, but it helped. Additionally, I think it's important to be truly physically healthy with good diet and exercise to analyze a good baseline of behavior.

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I truly appreciate everyone's comments. Hugs and BTDTs are very encouraging. I must admit though reading that your children got better in their teens made me cry. I don't know how I can do this for 10 more years.

 

I'm going to look into the website that was posted and also do some reading on intense children. Intense is exactly the word for it. I believe that her personality and character traits will serve her well in adulthood, it just makes for a difficult childhood at times.

 

I have not tried to closely monitor her diet. No one else in the family seems to have any food sensitivities, but that may be worth pursuing. I'm not sure that exercise really helps, but I can try to be more intentional about that.

 

There is no way to ignore her when she is in one of her states. For example, it was her sisters turn to pick the music in the car, and she did not approve of her sister's choice. Her solution was to scream as loud as she could for over 15 minutes, thus ruining the opportunity to actually listen to the music. I don't have any way to lock her in her room, but I can lock her upstairs with the gate. However she has gotten very close to breaking down the gate and she has taken pictures off the wall upstairs and thrown them down the stairs into our entryway.

 

I allow her to control as many aspects of her life as it is possible to allow four-year-old to control. She picks all of her own clothes, even if that means that she's wearing a size 18 month shirt that got in her drawer on accident. I always give her whatever she asks for breakfast and lunch (she has a healthy diet, I just let her pick what kind of sandwich and fruit, for example).

 

I joined this forum after reading WTM because I wanted to homeschool. I cannot right now due to various family circumstances (her behavior being part of that). At this moment I cannot imagine homeschooling her. HSing my oldest would be wonderful and she would love it.

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I've always forced a quiet time in the afternoon to give everyone a break from each other. Before my intense one was a strong reader, I would let him listen to audio books or dramas, or go outside.

 

Our first life-changing idea was getting a trampoline for him. We did that the year he turned 4. Before that, we used to let him roller skate in the basement. Activity was (is) always good for him. Then there were other times I ran a warm bath and that would finally settle him. 

 

We have had him on a nearly gluten-free diet for the past 10 months and have seen a huge improvement in the way he handles his life. It was one of those "it might not help, but it can't hurt" experiments, and it's changed things for the better.

 

We had so many rocky times that I tried to take real advantage of the good moments. For example, I noticed that he was most mellow when he first woke up, and he'd allow me to snuggle him up then, so I would! I tried to speak positively and encourage him about facing the day.

 

I would (and still do) apologize when I lost my temper, and I have really improved in that area. I think having him push my buttons actually helps me learn patience. Not that I've arrived...we're still a work in progress here. We both have bad days with yelling, but we're working through it, and it's much less often.

 

I have to be honest, we have spent much time praying for and about this kid. It took me a long time to get to know him. He's about to turn 9, and I can say that we've become much closer in a been-through-the-fire-together kind of way.

 

Your situation is exhausting and difficult. I wish you and your family only the best as you work through this!


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Our oldest was like this at 3.  At my wit's end and with a toddler to take care of, I read a book - Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child.  You cut out the "dance" and all negotiations.  Also no drama from you, because drama = entertainment for the kid.  Time out is not optional, and there is no getting out of it.  And then I set aside a month to implement it.  I think one day I spent something like 10 hours walking this kid back to time out.  Just a spot in the next room - no door to kick, and not much physical separation.  He got up, I walked him back.  Repeat, patiently and boringly, all day long.  I would have done it for 48 hours if that was what it took.  There is no yelling, spanking, restraint, etc, or any kind of other punishment, just consistency that never breaks.  The next day it was more like 7 hours.  The next two days it was around 4 I think.  After the first week being consumed entirely with setting limits and enforcing them with time outs, the whole process was much faster and easier.  

 

This child's behavior did a complete 180, and he's been a compliant, mostly pleasant and cooperative kid ever since.  He's 11.5 now.

 

I know the approach sounds extreme, but it was warranted.  Our entire household was revolving around his behavior.  One day he attacked another child and intentionally slammed her head into the wall at a party because he wanted her cupcake.  That was absolutely it - I was done.  I had been reading the book and I decided to implement it.  There was truly a new sheriff in town.  Once he realized that the old one was never ever coming back, he gave up trying to be in control and relaxed and became a happy and pleasant kid.  

 

 

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I will ask her pedi about it. But, the fact she regulates her behavior for others makes me doubt developmental / emotional issues.

 

I understand your thinking here, but many children with differences *are* able to regulate when out of the house - it's only back at home on familiar ground when they allow the stress of regulating to burst forth.

 

:grouphug:

 

Anne

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I have one now :) He's two. I keep hoping (and praying - lots of praying, sometimes even Novenas and devotions dedicated to this specifically) that all his... intensity means he's destined for greatness one day, lol.

Mommy Confession: we're having new flooring installed in the kitchen and it's turned into a two day process, unexpectedly. When *my* sitter (DH hired a friend of mine to follow me around the house making sure I listen to doctor's orders post-op) offered to just take DS2 back to her house all day, keep him until bedtime tonight, and do the same tomorrow, I felt horrible because I actually looked forward to it - no chasing him off from jumping on his brother's top bunk, no peeling scaling 2 year old off the shelves, no toddler dumping juice on my cell phone (I've been through 3 or 4 in the past year), no 2 year old trying to break out of the house. I enjoyed the time away from it. I should have been able to get far more done, school-wise, with my older children this way, but the reality is that I spent the entire day vegging, not dreading the *sound* of NOTHING (knowing that no toddler noise is far worse than loud toddler noise, lol). 

 

This is the one child that I've contemplated sending to a private early preschool program. Mommy guilt stops me every time. 

 

What is helping me, somewhat, is remembering all of his great qualities - he's an incredibly affectionate child, ridiculously bright, and genuinely joyful in all of his (terrifying) antics.

 

I have fabulous advice that I love to give, but the reality is that I'm human and I'm tired - I do NOT always follow my own advice. I've spent a couple nights worrying that my breakdown (of the "I'm going to send everyone to school!" yelling variety) will devastate the children and make them feel unloved. 

 

Then I read posts like this and I know I'm not alone, lol.

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This might not apply to you, but kids with attachment issues often behave for the rest of the world but not their parents. Risk factors for attachment issues include premature birth or other medical issues, change of caregiver (as in adoption), parental depression.

 

My intense child improved greatly once she was old enough to develop some calming outlets like reading, drawing, writing, and playing music. Before that, I spent a lot of time holding her while she screamed. Holding helped a lot but is psychologically hard on the parent. By four I started the screaming chair. She could scream out all her feelings but only while staying in the chair. Once she was done, she behaved much better for a while.

 

Hang in there. Some kids improve a lot sooner than others.

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Your child needs to know you have a duty to disallow certain things because they are wrong. 

That is different than the message: Stop annoying me!

 

And you need punishments.  They need not be spanking.

 

"Shame on you for spoiling your brother's chance to listen to music.  That was selfish.  I am not going to let you pick the music for a while."

 

If she was screaming at home I'd take her to her room, and when she left it, I'd escort her back until she stayed in it quietly for a minute.  Then I'd give her The Talk. 

If she started screaming again, back she'd go. 

If I was slack in the past, it might take weeks of painstaking consistency to prove I mean business. 

 

Once she is 100% sure she will be (mildly) punished and shamed, it won't be worth the cost.

 

And don't get so angry with her. You don't want to get grey hairs too soon.  You don't want to lose control of yourself in a fit of anger. I suspect she does things purposely to annoy you.  If it doesn't make you cave, at least you felt her wrath.  She's punishing you for closing your door, by kicking it - and for not putting on her favourite music, by screaming over it.  If you don't let her get your frazzled, she won't be so spiteful. 

 

Pretend you aren't angry if necessary.  Increasing your bond with your daughter will help you to not get so mad.  When times are good, play with her.  My four year old likes to pretend she's a fish and I catch her, season her (with baby powder) and eat her.  She loves it.  Enjoy your daughter.

 

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I have a child like this. I found that very brief corrections done every time worked better than longer corrections with lots of warnings before them. For example, say we were at the dining room table and she's trying to take her sister's markers. After one request to leave her sister's markers alone and use her own markers, each time, I'd pick her up and carry her to the sofa and tell her she could come back when she was ready to leave her sister's markers alone and use her own. Even if she *immediately* got up from the sofa and came right back, that was OK. I might have to repeat it 2-3 times, but if she knew I'd respond that way every time, then she'd stop the behavior. (This took away the power struggle over enforcing the time out.)

 

Also, corrections involving my presence/gentle touch worked better than verbal corrections. For example, it was much more effective to gently take her hand as she reached for her sister's markers and stop/redirect her, rather than to tell her no verbally. But my dd has always been soothed by touch.

 

ETA: And always ask yourself: is she hungry? thirsty? tired? At that age, I made sure she had a meal or snack at least every 3 hours because hunger made everything much worse.

 

ETA: As for the music in the car, I'd say no music in the car if the kids can't figure out how to share the music time without screaming and fighting. Let them work it out. Often my kids came up with agreements that they were fine with, even if they seemed less than fair to me. Or they'd reach the same solution that I would have proposed, but they stuck to it because it was their own idea and not imposed by me.

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You've been given many good ideas. I'll just say that kids like what you describe usually do not respond to the typical punitive approaches. I'd be clear and consistent but stick to positive reinforcement. Smile whenever you walk into a room and she catches your eye. Give her plenty of hugs throughout the day and tell her how great she is and how much you love her.

 

I want you to always remember, you did not cause this no matter what anyone ever tries to tell you. Your child is most likely not being annoying as a choice. Be grateful that she can hold it together in public.

 

In the meanwhile, I'd definitely consider getting a thorough eval to see what might be going on so that you can find the best ways to deal with it as she grows up.

 

My older kids are turning out to be such wonderful people that I am truly grateful everyday, but there was a time I despaired of their futures. None reacted normally to traditional discipline. Time-outs never worked. It was very hard. Figuring out they had sensory processing disorder explained a lot. 

 

Get your hands on a copy of The Explosive Child. :)

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As for the music in the car, I'd say no music in the car if the kids can't figure out how to share the music time without screaming and fighting.

 

That makes sense to me if you have a problem with the children fighting over the music. But what's described here sounds like one child who is okay sharing the music evenly, and another who is unwilling to do so. Banning music from both of them is rewarding bad behavior from just one of them.

 

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The two bolded things stick out to me.

 

One thing we discovered is we are the safe place to let it all out when our difficult child has kept it reigned in all day.

 

I know that pattern.  Its like the cycle of abuse.  It says to me that this is a multidimensional issue not a physical impairment in your kid or a developmental issue or whatever.  To me this screams relationship issue.  That was what I couldn't sort out when I was in the thick of it with my own child at this age.  I thought it was all him for sure.  But it was the pair of us and a bad bad pattern we had established together.

 

I agree with this completely. 

 

I'll add that there is most likely an underlying difficulty, a temperament or whatever, that the child was born with. Parents (who may share the same difficulty) get frustrated because everything they learned about good parenting and discipline doesn't seem to work. The sensitive kids pick up on the frustration and become out of sorts and act out more. A negative dynamic develops and is perpetuated. The parent has to be the one to break the cycle through positive changes. It's hard but the relationship can heal.

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That makes sense to me if you have a problem with the children fighting over the music. But what's described here sounds like one child who is okay sharing the music evenly, and another who is unwilling to do so. Banning music from both of them is rewarding bad behavior from just one of them.

 

I agree.

 

If I took away everything that Peter was not able to share well, none of us would have anything or go anywhere.

 

At times Peter has thrown huge hitting, kicking tantrums because Elliot has chosen to wear a color of shirt that Peter did not approve of.  Does Elliot then lose the right to wear shirts because the kids cannot reach an amicable solution?  Elliot has a right to wear shirts and play with toys and go on outings and have his turns choosing what to listen to in the car even if Peter vehemently disagrees.

 

Peter is non-neurotypical; it doesn't make sense to punish the other children for not being able to interact with him in positive, neurotypical ways.

 

Wendy

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The two bolded things stick out to me.

 

One thing we discovered is we are the safe place to let it all out when our difficult child has kept it reigned in all day.

 

I know that pattern.  Its like the cycle of abuse.  It says to me that this is a multidimensional issue not a physical impairment in your kid or a developmental issue or whatever.  To me this screams relationship issue.  That was what I couldn't sort out when I was in the thick of it with my own child at this age.  I thought it was all him for sure.  But it was the pair of us and a bad bad pattern we had established together.

 

Yes. Home is safe. I can melt down with mom and dad. It is hard work to self regulate, once I'm home I can stop self regulating.

 

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:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:  It's so so very hard.

 

I've been there so often.

 

Remember that those parenting books are to the average child and you likely have a child that is very not average.

 

I recently wrote a blog post about what I've had to learn when parenting my child who sounds so so very much like yours.

 

http://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/parenting-your-challenging-child-rejecting-formulaic-responses/

 

I would have been very well served to have learned these things when my child was 4 than when she was 12. Would've saved me years of frustration!

 

It's funny the assumptions that we unconsciously make that lead to frustration and feelings of failure.

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That makes sense to me if you have a problem with the children fighting over the music. But what's described here sounds like one child who is okay sharing the music evenly, and another who is unwilling to do so. Banning music from both of them is rewarding bad behavior from just one of them.

 

I understand this thinking, and I used to think this way as well.  But "sharing the music evenly" is from the *parent's* point-of-view.  First, the kids did not necessarily agree with me - what I saw as "sharing evenly" was not necessarily fair and equitable to them.  And second, even if they agreed that what I was proposing was fair and equitable, if *I* was the person proposing it then the "difficult" child would still reject it - your classic power struggle.

 

The kids were perfectly capable of working out their own agreements.  Sometimes they took even turns (you listen to one song and then I'll listen to one song) - perhaps after negotiating that we'd listen to Sister B's song first.  Sometimes Sibling A didn't really care much about the music and realized that Sibling B *really* cared about the music, and so they'd both agree to go along with what Sibling B wanted.  That seemed totally unfair to me, and like it was rewarding Sibling B for making a fuss, but it worked perfectly fine for them.  (If I felt that one child was just giving in so that it wasn't a true agreement, then I wouldn't accept the agreement.)

 

Believe it or not, sometimes the opposite happened, too - Sibling B realized that Sibling A really cared about the music, and Sibling B didn't really care about it, and so agreed to go along with what Sibling A wanted.  In this case, usually Sibling B had gotten upset over some related slight - for example, mom put on sister's music first without asking. Or she was mad about something totally unrelated.  

 

By letting them work it out, their true needs were met.  Not my decision of how to balance what *I* perceived to be their needs.   Sharing the music equally was not always the right solution.

 

After all, Sibling B is highly skilled at negotiating and advocating for herself.    As lauraw4321 said in her first post, "Everything is a negotiation."  So let the kids negotiate with each other, so long as they keep it respectful (no yelling, etc.)

 

They were also much more willing to work it out with each other because there was no power dynamic there - they were both on equal footing.  What Sibling B would reject if it came from me (because of our power dynamic), she would often accept if it came from her sister.

 

Also, banning music doesn't reward the bad behavior.  Sibling B doesn't get to listen to her music either, unless they're able to work out an agreement.  If Sibling B is truly unable to reach a compromise with Sibling A after numerous chances, then you might need to try an alternative - for example, let Sibling A listen on headphones or give her some other reward to make up for the loss of music and to thank her for being willing to come to a compromise even though her sister wouldn't agree to one.  

 

ETA:  Lastly, if the "difficult" child has sensory issues, listening to music in the car may be overwhelming.  Or it may have been overwhelming on that particular day at that particular time after there was a series of other events that overloaded her and pushed her to her limit.  Sometimes silence is what's *needed* even if the other child wants to listen to music and is willing to share equally.  

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Music in the car. We stopped music in the car. I started getting books and stories on cd. We always had a story going, even for a short ride to the grocery. The kids would absolutely be quiet, rather than miss a second of the story. And they new when we arrived at the destination the story stopped, until we had to get in the car again. I know some people dislike him, but Jim Weiss was what saved my sanity in the car. I learned of his recordings on the original version of this board and tried them out and it was magic. Oldest is almost 20 and he still looks up Jim Weiss' fb page. He's even written to him (within the last couple of years) and gotten a response. Oldest is (still) my most difficult child. I guess Jim Weiss is to my oldest what Mr. Rogers is for me--special calming influence. My dd liked Jim Weiss too and no one interrupted a story or book.

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She sounds just like my oldest child.  The good news, with a lot of cbt it has gotten better.  The bad news, it took an anxiety diagnosis, meds for that and a lot of cbt to get any better.  It is exhausting to live with a child like her but I try to remind myself that the qualities that drive me the nuttiest will be beneficial when she is an adult.

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I don't know if this will be helpful with your child, but it is what keeps popping in to my mind as I read this thread. Deborah Gray has written a couple of books on attachment issues in adoption, and one of the phrases she uses for what certain kids needs has been a kind of mantra for me to remember with one of my children: "high structure, high nurture." If my son lacks either, it is much harder for him to cope with life in a positive way. He needs to know that very clear structure and order is there, and he also needs a lot of affection and positive strokes.

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Coming at this from the perspective of a mom whose special needs child (a pervasive developmental problem, gifted, and more) was diagnosed at 9 (very late considering his issues) and who had every criticism leveled at her parenting as well as nearly every type of praise for her parenting (sometimes from the same mouths!), I suggest getting an evaluation...with the idea in mind that it may need to be repeated later. Our son didn't flip a lot of red flags until he was 9 or so, but he was intense, difficult, etc. He was borderline for ADHD, but we knew something more was going on, and it took a lot of work to figure it all out. It took two psychs before we had a winner and a diagnosis that ultimately made sense.

 

You can have a bad dynamic with a child and still have special needs (or anxiety or whatever). The dynamic might be there because the problems are hard to tease out and therefore hard to parent.

 

You can have a child who holds it together outside and explodes (or whatever) at home--this is classic special needs.

 

You can have a child with more than one special need and giftedness.

 

You can have a child who needs intensity and is still special needs.

 

You can have a child who isn't special needs but acts like one.

 

I have a twitch when I hear about attachment issues--I get that they are real, but parents of ASD kiddos were told for years that it was about attachment, refrigerator moms, etc. And it's NOT. (No offense to families dealing with valid attachment issues!)

 

Evaluations can help wtih this, but trust your mom gut about whether you're getting good information. Be open to changing things about your parenting, but don't suck up the blame for everything--these kids are hard, regardless of the underlying cause.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

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Oh, and I second using time-in, but not when you are on overload--do this proactively. If you don't know what it is, it's basically requiring the child to be within arms' reach of you at all times. This requires serious commitment and creativity.

 

My son needed a combination of intense attention upon waking (in his case, lots of reading, even as a very young toddler), and time-in all day. I literally showered while holding him for months at a time to do time-in. He also cleaned with me, cooked with me, whatever was required to keep him busy close beside me. With enough input first thing in the day, he became a little easier to manage later in the day, and his behavior improved later in the day. If we had an outing, we tried to make sure it occurred after intense time with me. It wasn't fool proof, but it helped, and it was way better than the alternative.

 

About your time outs--I suggest letting her have her fit if she is not hurting herself, others, or damaging things that can't be replaced. If you can put her someplace where it won't matter if she destroys something, that might be best. It's really hard when you can't take a time out, but you need the break it at all possible. As long as everyone is safe, get your time-out. You can work out the kinks about her fits later when you have more data to go on about why she's having them. Mine didn't do this when he was little, but he does follow me to time-out now. It's very difficult, and very much a trait of his diagnosis. (Think Sheldon on Big Bang Theory when he keeps knocking and saying, "Penny.")

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Here are a very few things to add to your arsenal. It's very possible that no one thing will change things, but perhaps a few things will start to make a dent in the situation. If these don't work, then drop them.

 

Every time you meet your child after a separation there needs to be a happy reunion. Watching a tv show is a separation. Going to bed is a separation. You being in another room is a separation. Each and every time your attention is away from your daughter, or her attention is away from you, and you then turn attention to each other, reconnect with her with a smile and a hug (if she accepts hugs.) Reconnect after each and every time apart. This sets the tone until the next separation.

 

If she's getting upset, acknowledge it. Instead of trying to convince her she's not upset or that she shouldn't be upset, just say with compassion, "You do not want to hear this song. You wanted to hear a song you picked." Turn the music off for a bit and then try the music again, this time warning her ahead of time that you will first hear the song sister picked, and then the son'g dd picked. Acknowledge her feelings for everything with lots of compassion and hugs (if she accepts hugs.) The more I calmly and with compassion vocalize what my kids are feeling, the more understood they feel, and the less they have to show me how upset they feel.

 

Time ins are good. For these, you keep her right by your side all day long for days and days and days until you can start to release her to being on her own. LIke a previous poster said, you may need to clear your schedule of everything for a month and keep her by your side non-stop all day long. While you're in the bathroom, while you cook dinner, while she watches tv, you are together through it all. The idea is to catch things immediately before they spiral out of control and to establish a bond.

 

When she's calm, sit quietly next to her and comfort her over the outbursts. Rather that fighting against them or frowny-faced telling her she shouldn't do them, just sit by her. As she gets a little older you can talk through them more and more, but for now talk through them a bit, "You were so angry. Let's snuggle for a little bit now that it's all over."

 

Stop talking. Sometimes we drone on and on and on and it's like a buzzing in a kid's ear and it drives them batty. Just Stop Talking.

 

Here's an example of what you could do with the screaming in the car issue. During that time when I cleared my schedule for a month, I would take the kids out in the car with no where to go. The point would be to practice how to behave in a car. If she started screaming, I would pull the car over, but stay in it until she stopped screaming. I would, ahead of time, have told her that sister picks and song, then dd picks a song. We'd pull over and I'd give compassionate faces and a quick, "You want your song. We will listen to your song as soon as sister's is done." And then just wait. (No more talking afer that one compassionte sentence.). If necessary and if she'd accept it, you could get out and pat her head while she screams, but she'll probably be furious and not want you to touch her. So, just wait until she stops, start up the car and keep doing this until she gets through sister's song without screaming.

 

That's how I'd handle everything. Soft, compassionate words. One or two sentences and then silence. Wait for the tantrum to end. Give a cuddle. And then, try the situation again. Maybe not immediately, but in a few hours or the next day, create the same situation (driving with music) and keep making you and her face the situations so you can work through them.

 

This is something that changed things for me. Pretend your mother-in-law is with you. Would you scream in front of your mother-in-law? No. Somehow, in some way, you'd keep your cool. Pretend your mother-in-law is with you at all times.

 

Also, if you have a good mother-in-law, or anyone else who loves your dd with almost as love as you do, ask them as an outside observer is there's anything they see that you're doing wrong. You could ask your mother as well. My mom lives too far away, but every once in a blue moon, my MIL will make an observation about the kids and she's right. It's a little tough to swallow, but when I listen to her and change things up, it's been beneficial. Someone who loves you and your dd dearly, might be seeing something you're not and might have a nugget of advice for you.

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Just a quick note on my earlier post about attachment issues. I am not accusing anyone of being a refrigerator mom! You could be the warmest mom in the world and still have a child with attachment issues. I am a good mom who has dealt with such problems myself. Once upon a time, someone mentioned them to me and helped our family immeasurably. So, I bring up attachment issues just in case risk factors exist in the family. If it does not fit the situation, then just read on to other posters who have better ideas.

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Just a quick note on my earlier post about attachment issues. I am not accusing anyone of being a refrigerator mom! You could be the warmest mom in the world and still have a child with attachment issues. I am a good mom who has dealt with such problems myself. Once upon a time, someone mentioned them to me and helped our family immeasurably. So, I bring up attachment issues just in case risk factors exist in the family. If it does not fit the situation, then just read on to other posters who have better ideas.

 

And my quote from a book on attachment was not because of attachment concerns, but more because the "high structure, high nurture" can also be helpful for other situations. Some children need very tight boundaries to feel safe, and more nurture than usual (within those tight boundaries) to feel loved and cared for.

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Pronghorn and Jaybee--no offense intended in my words or taken by your words about attachment--I know folks who have adopted or been adopted that have struggled with this. It just makes me anxious for folks who've not had good interactions with the idea. I hope you didn't hear my "but wait..." as a criticism, and if you did, my sincere apologies. I tried to add some context without sounding defensive, but maybe I still sounded defensive or accusatory.

 

Thanks for putting more context to applying attachment concepts to other situations.

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A few things that clever and insightful people shared with me along the way:

 

Have an inflexible schedule for the family. Predictability fosters security, and I suspect some of your child's behavior may be driven by feelings of anxiety.

That doesn't mean micromanage everything, just be consistent with things like meal and snack times, chores, getting dressed before breakfast every day not just some days, and things like this.

 

Teach her to "check in" with her body. Model this in your daily routine. 

"It's 10:00, and I'm feeling a bit hungry. I think I'd like something crunchy, like maybe a fresh apple. What about you? How are you feeling?" or "It's time for our break, and I'm feeling restless. I think my body wants to go for a walk. What do you think? What is your body telling you?"

 

Start to articulate out loud what you're doing and why. Articulate what you're feeling, what you're thinking, what you're planning.
"I'm feeling a little frustrated. I don't know why, I can't think of anything that anyone did to upset me, but for some reason, I'm feeling just a little bit frustrated. Maybe I should sit and read a book for a few minutes. Maybe that will help my mind relax." or "I just love it when you girls remember to put your things away before you leave the room. It looks so clean and organized and refreshing in here! This just brightens up my day!" I learned this from the book, 20 Teachable Virtues.

 

If you can, and if you are interested, keep a log of her behavior. Keep it very specific, very succinct. You should find patterns within a week or so. The log that worked for us is called an ABC log. A - antecedent (the events that directly preceded the behavioral meltdown - not the intent, not what she wanted, but the specific events that you saw and/or heard). B - behavior (quickly jot down what she did "screamed for 10 min." "argued with me for 3 hours" "hit the wall with her fists/toys/sister"). C - consequence (just what you did in response, not to foster any sense of guilt but to expose a pattern, like arguing ;)). You should be able to find things you can prevent (ie, hunger or excessive negotiations), and you should be able to discover things you haven't noticed (like what events lead to these negotiations).

 

For arguing, one thing that helped me was to buy a big, ugly Timex watch with an analog alarm. This was much faster for me than trying to calculate the minutes digitally. There was a little arrow I simply moved along the watch face according to what I wanted. When the inevitable argument started up, I would calmly tell my son that I want to give him the attention he wants, but I had to do X first. I told him I would set my watch for 5 minutes, then come back to find him. The reason I set the watch and didn't say, "in a minute, hon" was because I knew that I might get distracted and let more time pass (which screws up the whole predictability/security thing), and he knew that if he got distracted and moved on, I was likely to think whatever his problem was had been resolved. In other words, "in a minute" was translated to him as, "yeah, no, I'm just going to blow you off." A timer forced me to attend to his needs, and gave him a visual and auditory message that his needs were going to be met. It helped foster trust, which can be hard for kids who struggle with anxiety. Five minutes moved up to ten, to twenty, to thirty, etc, as he could reliably handle it. Eventually (and this took months), I could tell him I'd set my timer for 4:00 and we could discuss it then. Sometimes he could persuade me because he had my undivided attention and didn't feel the pressure to get me to see things his way right then and there. Sometimes I could persuade him and he could understand why I did things I did. Sometimes we came to a compromise. I think this helped teach him a few social skills, including patience, and how to logically formulate an argument. With the pressure of immediacy off, the only thing he had going for him was reason. Emotions were not only not forthcoming because the urgency was gone, but I was calm because I had prepared this time to be free from distraction. 

 

We had visuals around, usually in the kitchen on the fridge. One flow chart was very simple. It showed the first event (DS makes request) and two options (Mom and/or Dad say Yes / Mom and/or Dad say No). The No option had three options (DS accepts No --> house quiet and peaceful, family members calm; DS asks to discuss further --> house quiet and peaceful, family members calm; DS argues or cries --> house loud, family members upset). One If/Then reminder poster was very simple. We had an Anger Thermometer to point at and reference as needed (I don't think it really was referenced much, but it was there as a visual reminder to "check in" with our own bodies/minds). 

ETA: Here's a great resource for creating your own visual infographics (thanks fdrinca!)

 

We played games where the goal wasn't to win, but to be mindful of the emotional needs of others and to help out. For example, we'd play Chutes and Ladders, and the Winner wasn't the person who made it to the end of the game first, the Winner was the person who was most encouraging to others. What mattered to the person in first place wasn't that s/he might win, what mattered was encouraging the ones in last place to keep their chin up, don't worry, it's just a game, and to generally make jokes and make it a fun experience. The prize would be fresh chocolate chip cookies from the oven - everyone wins. We played many RDI games. While RDI has been developed to help with autistic challenges, the same skills of problem identification and solving, flexibility, self-regulation, empathy and perspective, etc, are skills that can take a back seat for a child whose world is frightening and anxiety provoking. 

 

I would encourage you to relax on academic expectations for now. Whatever your 4 year old doesn't get now, she can pick up in a fraction of the time in a few years. Meanwhile, during this time you can help her learn how to interpret her world calmly and logically, with an eye on social skills. While you may worry that your other kids don't get your full attention, in time you'll figure out how to address your oldest's needs in such a way that also addresses everyone else's needs. As an added bonus, they grow up knowing how to be sympathetic to the needs of others, rather than blaming or getting impatient, they'll grow up knowing big sis needs more time to process certain things, and because families stick up for one another, they help big sis. In return, bib sis learns to identify their needs, and returns the favor. School work for us was done with two purposes in mind - one was acquisition of academic skills, but the other, and more pressing function, was learning how to learn in a safe environment that could accommodate to these overwhelming feelings of anxiety and confusion. 

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I have a high needs/stubborn child like this. Another thing I will pipe in with: Avoid drawing a line in the sand whenever possible.

 

My son will cross whatever line I draw, whatever limit I place if they are pervasive in his life. If I say, "If you do this, XYZ will happen," he would do it, just to be able to be controlling the situation. I needed to learn to not make that absolute when possible. If it was a little thing, I'd choose positive reinforcement vs negative consequences whenever I could. I still do. "I will pay you a penny for every three toys you pick up" elicits SO MUCH MORE from him than "pick this up or you won't go outside." His desire to control is often much more than his desire to not be punished. There are times where I make absolutes and require him to follow them. If they aren't frequent, then he is more likely to follow me when I do.

 

Also, following through those extremes all the time is exhausting.

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Oh, I thought of a few other things I wanted to add (just in case my last post wasn't long enough to make your eyes glaze over already ^_^). One is that if you can try and keep in mind all your child's behaviors serve a purpose, it might help you maintain a bit more emotional stability. You might find it gives you increased patience to understand this as you watch her meltdown. By this I mean that each behavioral outburst is a means to solve a problem she's identified. She's not being spoiled, naughty, or selfish. I know how easily we parents can try and fix one of these "character flaws," and I know just how often this idea is offered as well-meaning advice, but it's actually not about that. She's identified a problem, and she's trying to solve it. This is another example in which that ABC data log comes in handy. You should find within the patterns you see, the problems she's having and her go-to solutions. If you can think of her as learning a second language, the language of social skills, it might help you slow down and help her process the events in a more effective and socially appropriate way. This is the mantra we came away with - All Behaviors Serve A Function (I can't believe I didn't mention that before). The corollary to this is that The Function Of This Behavior Is Not To Turn My Hair Gray. I promise. :)

 

Another thing I wanted to mention is that you'll no doubt get lots of advice about trying alternative strategies, from diets to homeopathy to colored lenses in sunglasses. While these ideas may be supported through anecdotal stories of success, they've not been shown to have any reliable predictive qualities about them, so don't feel compelled to try any ideas that don't sit well with you. Go ahead and try what sounds good, but if you find you don't have the time or resources to implement something, don't feel guilty about putting it on the back burner or abandoning it altogether. Your daughter is four years old, and while it may seem daunting to not rush into things now, you really do have time to figure out what will work out for your child within the entire family dynamic. It's one reason I suggest you put academic expectations on the back burner. Learn to help your daughter help herself. Modified school lessons will help you give her the time she needs to process the frustrations that naturally come up. Math facts and parts of speech can be learned organically. Reading with you will help her learn more than you might be aware. You might look to unschooling or eclectic homeschool resources to figure out how to provide a learning rich environment without dedicating too much time to specific lessons. In this way, when stressors come up, you'll not feel rushed to get these boxes checked and can instead focus on the social skills dynamics she needs right now. 

 

The last thing I wanted to mention was that for some reason we don't quite know yet, some brains are simply more prone to anxiety. Learning how to control her self-talk will help, so I'd encourage you to learn about cognitive behavioral therapy, but also want you to not feel discouraged if in time you and your husband decide medication might help.  A lot of us parents have experienced this avenue and can help when, and if, the time comes to process these ideas. 

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So I have been intentionally doing this at every opportunity since I read it and it clearly feeds my anxiety ridden dd. Thanks for posting this.

Yeah, this one works well in my family as well. If I've greeted the kids with a gentle happy smile and then I have to ask them to do something, they're better about doing it.

 

If I wake up, walk in the room, and say, "This place is a mess! Clean it up!" it doesn't go well. If I wake up, walk in the room, say, "Hi guys! Good morning!" give them hugs, ask if they had any strange dreams last night (and listen to them) and THEN say, "This place is a mess! Clean it up!" all of a sudden it's not as big of a deal to them.

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