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Need Advice... Pre-A Not Going Well


shburks
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DS has been breezing through math for years in private school.  We're homeschooling for the first time this year and based on his math teacher's recommendations and the tests (to see where to start in a new series), we're doing Jousting Armadillos pre-Algebra.  The first four chapters or so went well...easy peasy.  Suddenly we're in Chapter 5 with solving single-variable equations, ratios, percents as proportions and we've just come to a stand-still.  He's not getting them. Or gets part of them but can't do them the next day or can't transfer the information to the next topic.  Like, he can do fractions (common denominator) but when you add in single problem variables to that, he forgets how to do it and instead is adding/subtracting the denominators.

 

Obviously this is pretty important stuff, and we can't move on to Algebra until he gets these down.

 

So...

 

What do I do?  Do I need to do pre-A over with a different text?  Just review these sections again?  Use an online program to reinforce these topics?

 

He's frustrated.  I'm frustrated.

 

I mean tears.  Anger.  Nasty words. 

 

Need advice.

 

 

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You could try a couple of days working on these topics in Khan academy, maybe also watch the relevant videos on the AOPS site. Sometimes a new concept just takes awhile to sink in. You might move on to something else for awhile then come back to the problem area; I don't think you need to jump ship to a different program.

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Some topics just take longer to click. If it turns to anger and tears it's time to stop, take a break, and do something else. The mind can't learn when its revved up in anger. Try watching online videos on the topic, AOPS has a great pre-A video series, or try presenting it in different ways, different books, but hold off on making him solve anything for a week. Just give him input and let it stew. Then slowly step back to the problems, with calmness. There is no problem if it takes longer for something to click. You are not behind, need not stress about keeping pace. Slowly go back and talk about the sticking points. But give it a break of output for a bit and see if just stewing on the concept will help.

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Two things to focus on are order of operations and exponents.  With order of operations, you just need to play with examples to really understand the significance, and extend into algebraic expressions.  Exponents are tougher, but are the key to understanding the nature of algebraic expressions.  AoPS is excellent at that, and the videos will help.

 

No need to abandon the curriculum, though.

 

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Do you have access to an electronic device that will run the Hands-on Equations app?

 

This is the link for the Apple iPhone or iPad: http://www.borenson.com/AboutHandsOnEquations/iPadappHandsOnEquations1/tabid/1519/Default.aspx

This is the link for Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Borenson-Hands-On-Equations-1/dp/B00H2LEXDA

This is the link for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.handsonequations1&hl=en

 

I would play around with HoE to make sure he understands the basic concept of solving an algebgraic equation.

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It also may be "October syndrome"-I've realized that Late October-December really isn't a time to try to introduce heavy new concepts-it's a time to review, to do more "fun", relaxing stuff, and just generally get through the season. Looking back through my notes from the last few school years, we've slowed to a crawl around this time every year, been really frustrated and beating my head against a wall, and been stressed about it, and then DD makes a big leap in January. It's happened every year we've been homeschooling, and I finally picked up on the pattern. I have a thread where people have suggested ideas for a break in Algebra for her this year, and I imagine most of the suggestions would work for a break in Pre-algebra as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It also may be "October syndrome"-I've realized that Late October-December really isn't a time to try to introduce heavy new concepts-it's a time to review, to do more "fun", relaxing stuff, and just generally get through the season. Looking back through my notes from the last few school years, we've slowed to a crawl around this time every year, been really frustrated and beating my head against a wall, and been stressed about it, and then DD makes a big leap in January. It's happened every year we've been homeschooling, and I finally picked up on the pattern. I have a thread where people have suggested ideas for a break in Algebra for her this year, and I imagine most of the suggestions would work for a break in Pre-algebra as well.

Thanks... This is very possible.  I think we'll take a step back and do some of these suggestions!

 

Do you have access to an electronic device that will run the Hands-on Equations app?

 

This is the link for the Apple iPhone or iPad: http://www.borenson.com/AboutHandsOnEquations/iPadappHandsOnEquations1/tabid/1519/Default.aspx

This is the link for Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Borenson-Hands-On-Equations-1/dp/B00H2LEXDA

This is the link for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.handsonequations1&hl=en

 

I would play around with HoE to make sure he understands the basic concept of solving an algebgraic equation.

I'm not familiar with this, but we have iPads and Kindle so I'll definitely take a look!

 

Two things to focus on are order of operations and exponents.  With order of operations, you just need to play with examples to really understand the significance, and extend into algebraic expressions.  Exponents are tougher, but are the key to understanding the nature of algebraic expressions.  AoPS is excellent at that, and the videos will help.

 

No need to abandon the curriculum, though.

Thanks, Mike.  He does understand order of operations very well and he gets exponents--that was easy!  It seems like AFTER that he got too bogged down.  I totally forgot that AoPS had videos!

 

I'd back off for a week or so and do some geometry or something completely unrelated. Then I'd come back to this and try again. If it still didn't go well I'd back off again.

 

Right now he's probably so frustrated he's just shut down.

You're right, kiana.  We're both overly frustrated... 

 

Some topics just take longer to click. If it turns to anger and tears it's time to stop, take a break, and do something else. The mind can't learn when its revved up in anger. Try watching online videos on the topic, AOPS has a great pre-A video series, or try presenting it in different ways, different books, but hold off on making him solve anything for a week. Just give him input and let it stew. Then slowly step back to the problems, with calmness. There is no problem if it takes longer for something to click. You are not behind, need not stress about keeping pace. Slowly go back and talk about the sticking points. But give it a break of output for a bit and see if just stewing on the concept will help.

Thank you for the great insight here.  I think in my brain I keep thinking we have to push forward...when we CAN stop and take a break and review!

 

You could try a couple of days working on these topics in Khan academy, maybe also watch the relevant videos on the AOPS site. Sometimes a new concept just takes awhile to sink in. You might move on to something else for awhile then come back to the problem area; I don't think you need to jump ship to a different program.

I just created an account on Khan Academy.  I think I'll pair that with AoPS videos and see if that gets us over the hump.  We were going along so well and then BAM!  Hit the wall.  I don't want to use another program yet--I'm planning AoPS for Algebra when we're done with pre-A and already utilizing Alcumus, too, so I'm going to use some of these suggestions.

 

Thank you all so much for your wisdom and helpful ideas.  

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I wouldn't use J.A. as a stand alone pre-A curriculum.  

 

We're using it as a fun supplement to our spine which is Saxon 8/7.

 

And yes, the first four chapters were super easy... but IMO it takes a lot more practice/review to have a good foundation in pre-A skills than J.A. provides.

Saxon absolutely will not fly in this house!  It doesn't fit his learning style at all.  

 

I researched it to death before I went with JA so I'm a little troubled that you have concerns.  Can you tell me what you think it's missing?  I had half-considered using AoPS pre-A after JA but after speaking with the folks at AoPS I felt better about it and felt like he would be prepared for Algebra I.

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I have no concerns if you think that you want to use it as a stand alone program.  :)

 

I'm just saying that my crew needs more repetition and review than J.A. offers. To be honest, I haven't done a side-by-side comparison of topics covered in each book, so I don't know if it's missing anything, I just know that Saxon offers the review my kids need. 

 

If you have a mathy kid, and you feel that it's enough, then it probably is. My opinion is based on my kids' need for a spiral approach. Go with your gut and do what you think is best for your child. 

 

 

 

(ETA: I just realized this is the accelerated board... feel free to ignore my post.)

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I have no concerns if you think that you want to use it as a stand alone program.  :)

 

I'm just saying that my crew needs more repetition and review than J.A. offers. To be honest, I haven't done a side-by-side comparison of topics covered in each book, so I don't know if it's missing anything, I just know that Saxon offers the review my kids need. 

 

If you have a mathy kid, and you feel that it's enough, then it probably is. My opinion is based on my kids' need for a spiral approach. Go with your gut and do what you think is best for your child. 

 

 

 

(ETA: I just realized this is the accelerated board... feel free to ignore my post.)

 

Thanks for your input, MiMi!  I'm not going to ignore your post!  Generally speaking my kid doesn't need the repetition which is why they particular issue with him has surprised me so much.  He's usually a "learn it once, got it" kind of kid.  He is a little young though so maybe I'm just pushing too hard.

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We did MM6 and JA during the same year - 6th grade - and the ability to dip back into MM6 for extra review of ratios, percents and proportions before doing the JA chapter that has them with variables was priceless.  We did the first few JA chapters consecutively, but after that we reviewed each concept using MM6 before doing it with variables in JA.

 

FWIW, my dd has needed several spaced repetitions of ratios, proportions, and percents before she really got them down.  When she did the topics in Alcumus (between JA and starting Alg w/ Jacobs) she needed to review them again.  MM is good for this, the Blue topic books if you don't have the whole curriculum.  We just reviewed some pages from the MM Blue Percents book just a week or two ago.

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We definitely threw Zaccaro Real World Algebra into the mix - we were braiding MM6, JA, and ZRWA all of last year.  It's been excellent preparation for starting Alg 1.  But I don't hesitate to go back and review these concepts as needed.  Zaccaro RWA still gets pulled out if we need extra review.

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Do you have access to an electronic device that will run the Hands-on Equations app?

 

This is the link for the Apple iPhone or iPad: http://www.borenson.com/AboutHandsOnEquations/iPadappHandsOnEquations1/tabid/1519/Default.aspx

This is the link for Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Borenson-Hands-On-Equations-1/dp/B00H2LEXDA

This is the link for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.handsonequations1&hl=en

 

I would play around with HoE to make sure he understands the basic concept of solving an algebgraic equation.

 

We are doing this, it's really helping.

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I love Real World Algebra as a pre-A supplement. We also used the Keys to series to shore up needed topics.

 

IMO, the most difficult hurdle to jump in pre-A is the combining of all the formerly learned math concepts and using them at one time. It is a huge paradigm shift from the single topic/concept typical elementary math and requires a lot of adjustment, maturity and space in the brain.

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What do y'all think about adding in Zaccaro's Real World Algebra here?  Maybe just step back from the "textbook" and do something a little different?

 

This could definitely be one option.

 

You might also consider adding in something like Patty Paper Geometry as a pre-geometry course if your budget will stand for it -- it's about $50. 

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IMO, the most difficult hurdle to jump in pre-A is the combining of all the formerly learned math concepts and using them at one time. It is a huge paradigm shift from the single topic/concept typical elementary math and requires a lot of adjustment, maturity and space in the brain.

 

Yes yes yes. And the jump from where it's not just 'ok, today we're working on multiplication, so let's do multiplication practice and then 10 word problems that ALL involve multiplication' -- this is a huge weakness in many mathematics programs. 

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By any chance is he a perfectionist?

 

Let me be clear that I am not saying to switch programs, more that I am just sharing our experience with a different program.  I do not know if I would have recognized my son's issues if we had not been homeschooling.  So perhaps this was latent and it was never realized at school.

Until AoPS PreA, my son had just been rocking along with all his subjects.  He had never had real struggle.  He had had some moments when he had to think a bit, but not struggle. When AoPS came along he had to really struggle.  We had already done a traditional program, so I know that the material was not new.  Some was obviously fuzzier than others as it is with any program, but it wasn't new. 

 

You would think there was a serial killer loose in our house come math time.  Simple little bits would cause total brain lock and freak outs.  Me saying "Sit down and lets just look at this" would elicit meltdowns.  My goodness it was ridiculous.

 

The problem was not the curriculum, but that my son needed to learn how to learn.  He needed to learn how to not panic and calm himself down and put the tiny pieces together in multiple little leaps of faith.  That was a skill I had under estimated.  In many ways it was a skill I had completely overlooked.  If your son has become used to information easily coming to him and for some reason this moment it is not, then he might be dealing with an emotional issue and not a math issue.

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My DD was struggling with some solving equations involving fractions the other day and was making a really dumb mistake over and over again (canceling out the denominator for some bizarre reason). I rewrote the equation with a whole number in the denominator instead of a variable and asked her if she could cancel out the number in the denominator. She looked at me like I had two heads and said, "of course not!" So why on earth she thought she could cancel out the denominator if it had a letter instead of a number is beyond me...[insert banging-head emoji here]

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My DD was struggling with some solving equations involving fractions the other day and was making a really dumb mistake over and over again (canceling out the denominator for some bizarre reason). I rewrote the equation with a whole number in the denominator instead of a variable and asked her if she could cancel out the number in the denominator. She looked at me like I had two heads and said, "of course not!" So why on earth she thought she could cancel out the denominator if it had a letter instead of a number is beyond me...[insert banging-head emoji here]

 

I have no idea why either.

 

I ask someone "what are two apples plus three apples?" and they say "five apples ... duh?"

 

And yet when I ask "So what is 2x plus 3x?" they try to tell me 5x^2 or 6x^2 or something like that. 

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I love Real World Algebra as a pre-A supplement. We also used the Keys to series to shore up needed topics.

 

IMO, the most difficult hurdle to jump in pre-A is the combining of all the formerly learned math concepts and using them at one time. It is a huge paradigm shift from the single topic/concept typical elementary math and requires a lot of adjustment, maturity and space in the brain.

YES!!  That's exactly what I was trying to say (not well apparently), but that seems to be the issue alongside the "he's never had to work hard at math before" issue.  I think that's where the struggle is coming from--not quickly being able to put the previously learned topics in with the new topics.

 

We definitely threw Zaccaro Real World Algebra into the mix - we were braiding MM6, JA, and ZRWA all of last year.  It's been excellent preparation for starting Alg 1.  But I don't hesitate to go back and review these concepts as needed.  Zaccaro RWA still gets pulled out if we need extra review.

Thanks!  You're always my "go-to" girl for JA help!  I'm ordering RWA now!

 

This could definitely be one option.

 

You might also consider adding in something like Patty Paper Geometry as a pre-geometry course if your budget will stand for it -- it's about $50. 

I'm not familiar with this, but I'm going to take a look at it.

 

By any chance is he a perfectionist?

 

Let me be clear that I am not saying to switch programs, more that I am just sharing our experience with a different program.  I do not know if I would have recognized my son's issues if we had not been homeschooling.  So perhaps this was latent and it was never realized at school.

Until AoPS PreA, my son had just been rocking along with all his subjects.  He had never had real struggle.  He had had some moments when he had to think a bit, but not struggle. When AoPS came along he had to really struggle.  We had already done a traditional program, so I know that the material was not new.  Some was obviously fuzzier than others as it is with any program, but it wasn't new. 

 

You would think there was a serial killer loose in our house come math time.  Simple little bits would cause total brain lock and freak outs.  Me saying "Sit down and lets just look at this" would elicit meltdowns.  My goodness it was ridiculous.

 

The problem was not the curriculum, but that my son needed to learn how to learn.  He needed to learn how to not panic and calm himself down and put the tiny pieces together in multiple little leaps of faith.  That was a skill I had under estimated.  In many ways it was a skill I had completely overlooked.  If your son has become used to information easily coming to him and for some reason this moment it is not, then he might be dealing with an emotional issue and not a math issue.

I do think you're spot on here.  My son was grade advanced over 1st grade; then last year (4th) they moved him to 5th grade math because he already knew the 4th grade math topics.  While 5th grade math was a little more challenging, I don't think he really ran up against much that he couldn't quickly figure out.  BUT pre-A has really thrown him.  I could have written that exact same thing--Just this morning, I said, "Let's look at this again" and you would've thought I attacked him with a pitchfork.  Complete meltdown, crying, anger....hence my post!

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Ordinary.  Along with what texasmama said, I think you're right in that he needs to learn how to learn--not panic, be willing to listen and to ask questions.  Now that you have helped diagnose him, do you have any suggestions for what to do to right this?

 

Thank you all so much.  I'm ordering Real World Algebra now; we're going to use Khan Academy and AoPS in the meantime while I figure out how to help him learn how to learn!

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:lol: Must be something in the air.  We were having that conversation today about 5*square root of 2 + 3*square root of 2.

 

It was a really big conceptual jump here too, the biggest in PreA I think - to take all the operations you've learned, and then suddenly add variables to them.  It seems obvious to us, but it can be a tricky thing to get your head around. 

 

This is what I liked so much about JA - Ch. 5 and Ch. 6 were really tough, because they required the student to put it all together.  Everything they have been learning up through 6th grade math, plus everything they have learned in the book so far, put it all together and . . . go! Do math!  It was awesome, but really quite difficult, whereas the first 4 chapters were pretty easy.

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I have spent a fair amount of time in setting expectations with my boys for math going forward (pre-A on) to be a thing with which they wrestle.  One of my sons is pretty tolerant to this, and the other one is not.  It's a personality difference.  I have repeated this message over and over and over.  Elementary math came easily to them, but this middle school stuff is WORK, as well it should be.

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By any chance is he a perfectionist?

 

Let me be clear that I am not saying to switch programs, more that I am just sharing our experience with a different program.  I do not know if I would have recognized my son's issues if we had not been homeschooling.  So perhaps this was latent and it was never realized at school.

Until AoPS PreA, my son had just been rocking along with all his subjects.  He had never had real struggle.  He had had some moments when he had to think a bit, but not struggle. When AoPS came along he had to really struggle.  We had already done a traditional program, so I know that the material was not new.  Some was obviously fuzzier than others as it is with any program, but it wasn't new. 

 

You would think there was a serial killer loose in our house come math time.  Simple little bits would cause total brain lock and freak outs.  Me saying "Sit down and lets just look at this" would elicit meltdowns.  My goodness it was ridiculous.

 

The problem was not the curriculum, but that my son needed to learn how to learn.  He needed to learn how to not panic and calm himself down and put the tiny pieces together in multiple little leaps of faith.  That was a skill I had under estimated.  In many ways it was a skill I had completely overlooked.  If your son has become used to information easily coming to him and for some reason this moment it is not, then he might be dealing with an emotional issue and not a math issue.

Reading over your signature, is the AoPS Counting & Probability what you're currently doing?  I had entertained doing one of those before doing AoPS Algebra.  Do you have thoughts on that?  

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Counting and Probability was what originally caused the break through with my son in PreA.  He is a very visual person - totally geometry and not algebra.  The Counting and Prob book was covering very visual topics.  Gag me with a spoon - I very much dislike them!  He loved it.  When AoPS was now talking about permutations and combinitorics he was SO excited.  They were finally speaking his language.  Once he was rolling with things being difficult, but not mind melting, it was as though he was willing to go back to PreA.  It worked with his intuitive math sense and made him see he wasn't stupid (as he was telling himself) but that he wasn't translating the words into something he could go with.

 

Last year we did one chapter PreA, one chapter C&P.  This left us finishing up the PreA book, but with a few chapters left in C&P.  So this year we are finishing C&P and doing Geometry.  We completely skipped Algebra because my son's foundation is pretty strong and just does not think in numbers.  He has been working with PreA and beginning algebra since he was around 7 to 8. He loves pictures.  He can relate to those concepts so much more.  Algebra is waiting in the wings in case we need it, and I used to be math teacher before homeschooling so I can fill in if there is a bit of a hole, but he is just trucking along and hasn't had problems.  In most all instances, geometry and algebra are saying the same thing only just using a different language.  We work on him being able to translate back and forth.

 

There is no reason why a kid could not pick up C&P and go with it.  For someone who thinks visually or is whole to parts, it is a wonderful area of math.   Lots of art.  Lots of pictures.  Unfortunately, it is a spendy option if money is tight.  We found it on Amazon a few years ago before anyone knew about AoPS.  It was only like 13 dollars or I never would have purchased it.  It is only about a semester of high school/middle schoolish work.  But, if you are really exploring the topics you can stretch it.  We did big colorful pictures of the concepts like fractals, factorials, probability dynamics, and such.  We worked in polyherda and chemical compositions as visuals of various fractal patterns in 3 dimensions. 

The perfectionism thing we have handled by making sure my son knew that the math was not going away.  We could put it away for even a month at a time, but it was not disappearing.  I then compared it to asking him to translate something in Russian.  He laughed at me because it was so perposterous to think that he knew Russian.  I asked him to build a functioning Nuclear Submarine and it ellicited the same laughter. When I then compared that to why he thought he should be able to do the math he did not know, he got very serious and said it was totally different.  Now (a year or so later) he uses this to calm himself down, but no dice then.  I often related to him how I am a panicker as well.  I personally have struggled with anxiety.  I build stuff up and get overwhelmed.  He is great at talking me down and thinks many of the things I panic about are a bit silly.  That helped a lot.  When their was someone else exhibiting the behavior, only with something he found small, it helped him see that maybe it was not the end of the world when he panicked.  It became a funny joke for me to say, "Are we panicking right now?....I think you might be panicking....Maybe I am wrong...."  As he totally became a whirling dervish of emotions.  The "NO!" was often followed by my calm "Oh, just checking because you are chewing on your shirt, screaming, and on the brink of tears....I just thought that was panicking."  This would turn into him laughing a bit and smooth things down. 

 

Relaying him to Sheldon Cooper on The Big Bang Theory really has helped now that he gets to watch that show.  Sheldon frequently gets a bit neurotic over simple things in funny ways because he is smart and thinks about the world differently.

Um...I can't think of too many others...but I will sit down and try to go through the process of what has worked and what hasn't.  It has been about 2 years of active working.  The first year (8-9) was um...not incredibly productive...when it came to math, but great emotionally.  Nine to ten was much better.  Now we can talk about it.

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I have spent a fair amount of time in setting expectations with my boys for math going forward (pre-A on) to be a thing with which they wrestle.  One of my sons is pretty tolerant to this, and the other one is not.  It's a personality difference.  I have repeated this message over and over and over.  Elementary math came easily to them, but this middle school stuff is WORK, as well it should be.

 

This is exactly our experience with preA this year as well.   DS has flown through math (with the exception of some episodes of puberty hormone-induced "brain damage" that hit around 6th grade) and it has been a real adjustment for him to wrestle with math.   I might let him read through this thread in the morning to help him realize that he's not alone. :)

 

To the OP - I know your DS is young, but is there any chance that puberty is kicking in?    I was surprised that it hit so hard when my DS was 11, but even more surprised at how much it affected his ability to *think,* especially math-related functions.   If that is a possibility, I concur with others that it might be best just to back off a bit and do more review of the topics he's struggling with.    Vigorous exercise helps too.    If he's too young for this to be going on right now, be watching for it to hit in the next couple of years.

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Well, dd (ninth grade) just hit a block in AoPS Precalc, the first since geometry two years ago. I read through the book, decided that the next chapter did not depend on the painful chapter, and declared that she will temporarily skip that block. There was much relief :)

 

Even after four years of AoPS books, she still struggles when she doesn't immediately understand the concepts. I just have to say "tyranny of the 100%" for her to calm down.

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This is exactly our experience with preA this year as well.   DS has flown through math (with the exception of some episodes of puberty hormone-induced "brain damage" that hit around 6th grade) and it has been a real adjustment for him to wrestle with math.   I might let him read through this thread in the morning to help him realize that he's not alone. :)

 

To the OP - I know your DS is young, but is there any chance that puberty is kicking in?    I was surprised that it hit so hard when my DS was 11, but even more surprised at how much it affected his ability to *think,* especially math-related functions.   If that is a possibility, I concur with others that it might be best just to back off a bit and do more review of the topics he's struggling with.    Vigorous exercise helps too.    If he's too young for this to be going on right now, be watching for it to hit in the next couple of years.

He just turned 10 on Sunday, so I think it may be a little young for puberty yet.  I'll keep this in mind for the next year though... not ready for that yet!!

 

Counting and Probability was what originally caused the break through with my son in PreA.  He is a very visual person - totally geometry and not algebra.  The Counting and Prob book was covering very visual topics.  Gag me with a spoon - I very much dislike them!  He loved it.  When AoPS was now talking about permutations and combinitorics he was SO excited.  They were finally speaking his language.  Once he was rolling with things being difficult, but not mind melting, it was as though he was willing to go back to PreA.  It worked with his intuitive math sense and made him see he wasn't stupid (as he was telling himself) but that he wasn't translating the words into something he could go with.

 

Last year we did one chapter PreA, one chapter C&P.  This left us finishing up the PreA book, but with a few chapters left in C&P.  So this year we are finishing C&P and doing Geometry.  We completely skipped Algebra because my son's foundation is pretty strong and just does not think in numbers.  He has been working with PreA and beginning algebra since he was around 7 to 8. He loves pictures.  He can relate to those concepts so much more.  Algebra is waiting in the wings in case we need it, and I used to be math teacher before homeschooling so I can fill in if there is a bit of a hole, but he is just trucking along and hasn't had problems.  In most all instances, geometry and algebra are saying the same thing only just using a different language.  We work on him being able to translate back and forth.

 

There is no reason why a kid could not pick up C&P and go with it.  For someone who thinks visually or is whole to parts, it is a wonderful area of math.   Lots of art.  Lots of pictures.  Unfortunately, it is a spendy option if money is tight.  We found it on Amazon a few years ago before anyone knew about AoPS.  It was only like 13 dollars or I never would have purchased it.  It is only about a semester of high school/middle schoolish work.  But, if you are really exploring the topics you can stretch it.  We did big colorful pictures of the concepts like fractals, factorials, probability dynamics, and such.  We worked in polyherda and chemical compositions as visuals of various fractal patterns in 3 dimensions. 

 

The perfectionism thing we have handled by making sure my son knew that the math was not going away.  We could put it away for even a month at a time, but it was not disappearing.  I then compared it to asking him to translate something in Russian.  He laughed at me because it was so perposterous to think that he knew Russian.  I asked him to build a functioning Nuclear Submarine and it ellicited the same laughter. When I then compared that to why he thought he should be able to do the math he did not know, he got very serious and said it was totally different.  Now (a year or so later) he uses this to calm himself down, but no dice then.  I often related to him how I am a panicker as well.  I personally have struggled with anxiety.  I build stuff up and get overwhelmed.  He is great at talking me down and thinks many of the things I panic about are a bit silly.  That helped a lot.  When their was someone else exhibiting the behavior, only with something he found small, it helped him see that maybe it was not the end of the world when he panicked.  It became a funny joke for me to say, "Are we panicking right now?....I think you might be panicking....Maybe I am wrong...."  As he totally became a whirling dervish of emotions.  The "NO!" was often followed by my calm "Oh, just checking because you are chewing on your shirt, screaming, and on the brink of tears....I just thought that was panicking."  This would turn into him laughing a bit and smooth things down. 

 

Relaying him to Sheldon Cooper on The Big Bang Theory really has helped now that he gets to watch that show.  Sheldon frequently gets a bit neurotic over simple things in funny ways because he is smart and thinks about the world differently.

 

Um...I can't think of too many others...but I will sit down and try to go through the process of what has worked and what hasn't.  It has been about 2 years of active working.  The first year (8-9) was um...not incredibly productive...when it came to math, but great emotionally.  Nine to ten was much better.  Now we can talk about it.

You are a wealth of information!  I'm sorry that you had similar experiences, but I'm so glad you were willing to share with me and let me learn from your experiences.  I, too, am a panicker.  I know this about myself, and I know that it's something I've passed on to my son as well (nature vs nurture?).  I like your approach and think that could help

 

In regards to C&P, do you think it could be done alternating with Algebra I?  Or possibly switching back and forth for some variation?  Or do you think it would be better to just do C&P first (like a break) and then carry on with Algebra I after that?  Like you, I do not do well with visual topics in math; geometry is still my least favorite math, but my son and my husband both operate well in that kind of math.  After reading what you're son was saying/doing in frustration with pre-A, that's exactly what I'm seeing--"I'm stupid.  I'm a jerk.  You think I'm stupid and don't get this." and that sort of thing.  I'm wondering if C&P could boost his confidence a little to be ready for Algebra after that.

 

I cannot thank you enough for your response.  If you think of anything else that might help, feel free to send me a message!  I've literally copied/pasted your comments into a document so I can review them!

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We did MM6 and JA during the same year - 6th grade - and the ability to dip back into MM6 for extra review of ratios, percents and proportions before doing the JA chapter that has them with variables was priceless.  We did the first few JA chapters consecutively, but after that we reviewed each concept using MM6 before doing it with variables in JA.

 

FWIW, my dd has needed several spaced repetitions of ratios, proportions, and percents before she really got them down.  When she did the topics in Alcumus (between JA and starting Alg w/ Jacobs) she needed to review them again.  MM is good for this, the Blue topic books if you don't have the whole curriculum.  We just reviewed some pages from the MM Blue Percents book just a week or two ago.

 

What she said.

 

I'm quoting it because many of us underestimate the need to hammer home ratios, proportions and percents when we are just.this.close to algebra.

 

We're also "braiding" (nice word!) MM 6/7, CTC Geometry, and Real World Algebra this year. I really don't see the need for JA in our mix, although I think dd would really like it.

 

We are even going back through all of the math facts with x-tra math. She knows her facts, but I didn't feel they were automatic. I don't want anything to stand in our way once we hit Algebra.

 

good luck!!

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We finished Singapore 5a and 5b last year, including CWP.  It was time to shake things up so we added in some Life of Fred (Fractions, Decimals and Percents, Physics, and Pre Algebra) at different points for my then 4th grader.  I don't love Fred but DS1 enjoys working on something different.  We are doing AOPS prealgebra right now, and I think the work in Fred was helpful to him.  It was just hard enough, kwim?  My perfectionist also seems to enjoy being able to self teach from Fred, and come to me when he needs more explanation.  Again, I wouldn't rely on it as a solo curric, but doing Fred for additional practice seems to be something he has enjoyed.   We've done Singapore for years, so doing something different helps his enthusiasm. I guess we "braided" it in.

 

We've never worked with JA, so I can't really help with that aspect of things.

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I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but I wanted to share my personal experience.  When I was a fifth grader I was put into a combined 5th/6th grade class.  Honestly, though, the teacher was a sixth grade teacher and that was what he focused on for math skills (I loved that school year).  When we moved (military brat) and I started 6th grade it was found that I had all the skills they were teaching that were new that year, but those first few weeks of review of 5th grade topics, not so much.  I made it through 5th grade without learning how to do long division with more than one divisor.  Granted it took all of showing me what to do once to catch on, but still there was a huge topic I had missed by skipping. 

 

All this to say, make sure your son does not have any gaps you might not have realized before.  If he is trying to add and subtract the denominators while working with fractions, he does not have a firm understanding of fractions.  Yes, he can probably work with them if that is all he is doing, but mixing it up on him confused him which means they are not solid.  I agree that maybe working a standard 6th grade math program along side his pre-algebra might be the way to go.

 

I have one that is academically ready to do pre-algebra as a 5th grader.  He knows all the concepts and has never had any problems understanding math.  Even though he is academically ready, he is not ready maturity wise.  Anything he cannot do in his head can go downhill into a temper tantrum quickly.  Not because he doesn't know how to do it, but he hates showing work.  This alone will keep him out of the pre-algebra books for at least this school year.  Writing down and working problems step by step is 100% essential for any advanced math concepts.  Could this be the stem of your DS's frustration?

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I know this thread is a couple of weeks old, but I wanted to share my personal experience.  When I was a fifth grader I was put into a combined 5th/6th grade class.  Honestly, though, the teacher was a sixth grade teacher and that was what he focused on for math skills (I loved that school year).  When we moved (military brat) and I started 6th grade it was found that I had all the skills they were teaching that were new that year, but those first few weeks of review of 5th grade topics, not so much.  I made it through 5th grade without learning how to do long division with more than one divisor.  Granted it took all of showing me what to do once to catch on, but still there was a huge topic I had missed by skipping. 

 

All this to say, make sure your son does not have any gaps you might not have realized before.  If he is trying to add and subtract the denominators while working with fractions, he does not have a firm understanding of fractions.  Yes, he can probably work with them if that is all he is doing, but mixing it up on him confused him which means they are not solid.  I agree that maybe working a standard 6th grade math program along side his pre-algebra might be the way to go.

 

I have one that is academically ready to do pre-algebra as a 5th grader.  He knows all the concepts and has never had any problems understanding math.  Even though he is academically ready, he is not ready maturity wise.  Anything he cannot do in his head can go downhill into a temper tantrum quickly.  Not because he doesn't know how to do it, but he hates showing work.  This alone will keep him out of the pre-algebra books for at least this school year.  Writing down and working problems step by step is 100% essential for any advanced math concepts.  Could this be the stem of your DS's frustration?

 

Thanks for your thoughts, jenn.  He really does have the concepts down for things like adding fractions.  It was just that adding in the variables totally threw that out of the window!  It seems like adding in extra things just threw him for a loop!

 

However, I can totally relate to the temper tantrum.  We had some of the same issues but once he got over the fact that he NEEDED to show his work, it's going better.  :)  When he hurries and starts skipping steps...and then getting the wrong answers...that's when we do the talk again on why he needs to show his work.

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