Seriously considering quitting homeschooling

[MaeFlowers]

Please forgive me, this is longggg...

I posted a while back with questions about evals. Ds was evaluated by a regular psychologist. I think it was a complete waste of time. Ds was basically given an ADHD screener, the short IQ test and a ton of tests for autism. Well, I should say, it was mostly us filling out screeners. Austism was ruled out (the dr. suspected it although I was pretty darn certain he was not autistic) and he was diagnosed with ADHD, combined type. Dh and I completely disagree with the H part of that. I am also concerned that it may not acutally be ADD because the symptoms did not start until late 1st grade, early second. My understanding is that by the DSM, the symptoms really should have started earlier. Through everyone suggestions, I read through Smart but Scattered, The Mislabled Child, and a host of ADHD books. I had his hearing checked (perfect) and he met with a speech specialist who said not only was he fine but he was beyond. I became so overwhelmed, that I just backed off and have been taking a break from thinking about it. It has been keeping me up nights. I can't put my finger on what is going on and I can't afford a neuropsych right now.

I have been thinking about quitting homeschool and putting ds back in school because I simply just don't know what to do. I dread school each day because I am not sure I am helping him. The thing is, I think some of these things were going on in school and they didn't notice because everything seems okay with him. His teachers even talked about him being gifted and thought he would do well in the gifted program. Problem was, the gifted program here is based on achievement tests and he BOMBED those the year they checked him for eligibilty. He had perfect grades, all 4s (rubic system) but his test scores were dismal. His teacher said, "I don't know what happened, because that is not him."

Here are some of the issues we are having by major subjects:

 

Math: Ds started out doing really well in math. We have hit a wall with division. He can do it in his head most of the time, but long division on paper has been difficult. I think the problem lies in the fact that his math facts are not automatic. Not even addition. He still computes math problems like 6+3 by counting 7, 8, 9. Multiplication is the same. He adds to multiply, 4x4 is 4+4+4+4. I used to think he had working memory problems until the other day when he mulitplied 35x5 but adding up 5, 35 times in his head. I'm dead serious. I don't think I could do that without losing track. He has always understood the problems and been able to get the answers right but because of the way he goes about it, I think moving forward is getting too difficult. There are too many steps now. I don't understand how he can do something more abstract like Beast Academy without any difficulty but can't remember 7+5=12. We have drilled math facts over and over. Used things like Xtramath (which he passes) and still, no dice.

 

Writing: I chose Classical Comp. from MP this year. Last year we used WWE and he improved vastly in organizing information (he used to start telling a story from the middle) and narration. I didn't want to use it anymore because we were tired of it and he needed something different. We both hate CC. He understands the concepts but it just doesn't translate to his writing. He hates the repetitiveness of it as well. He writes as little as possible. Creative writing is not up his alley. Journal writing, forget it. ("I ate dinner.")

He needs something that holds his hand and gives specific requirements but when he has that, he won't do anything beyond what is required. Puncutation, capitalization, etc. are lost on him. He will write an entire page that looks like one very long sentence because he leaves those things out. His print looks like chicken scratch.His cursivee is beautiful but painstakingly slow. With either one, he can't control the size of his letters or stay within margins. He is very symptomatic of dysgraphia.

 

Reading: Another huge glitch. In school they said he read at 6th grade level in 1st grade. He read fast. I gave him a reading test at the beginning of the year. His decoding abilities are 12th grade plus. His comprehension was 7th grade plus. Or so it said. He seems like he never really understands what he is reading. He never follows directions because he says he does not understand. He seems to struggle with his reading assignments. I don't know if it is an input issue or an output issue. Iv'e tried reading comprehension programs and he does fine with basic ideas and facts but not the more abstact ideas of why or how. He can't infer anything from what he has read. I just don't understand.

 

If you made it this far, thank you. I am just so lost. I feel like it is pointless to try and move forward. He doesn't seem to understand what he is reading. We are just stuck in math. It feels like we are spinning our wheels and he is not learning anything. I don't know if I should remediate him and if I do, how or to what point. All this combined with his non-school issues (sleep problems and ADD) is just so overwhelming and confusing. Reading through the books like MIslabled Child just gets me frustrated because nothing really fits. Smart but Scattered didn't help one bit. Making lists only changes the argument from "Go brush your teeth." twenty times every morning to "Go check your list." 100 times every morning. I know an evaluation with a neuropsych would be the only way to get answers but because it is not financially feasible, I feel like I am up a creek without a paddle.

 

Does anybody have any ideas of what I can do? Where would you start? Even the simplest of things that might help? Does any of this sound familiar to you?

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs!  Big hugs!  I agree, I think a neuropsych eval would probably help (although I would be seeking someone trained in 2e kids) but since that is out right now and you already have some evaluations, I am editing my original post to say accept the info you have for now, as OhE says.  I have some suggestions but definitely read OhElizabeth's responses further down.  I think she can be a real help to you.  

 

Other than that,  this is what I suggest (but my situation is a bit different from yours so take this with a grain of salt).

 

1.  Step back in math.  Read Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers by Ronit Bird.  Start working with him on basic subitization skills.  And recognize that math facts take different processes than "thinking math" like Beast Academy.  You might want to read How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.  There are many children who struggle to remember math facts but do really well with conceptual math.  Again, two different processes.

 

2.  Maybe give him the placement tests for something with a tight spiral that strongly reviews math facts in targeted ways and look at possibly switching him to that program.  DD switched to CLE, which does those things, but she took the free on-line placement tests going all the way back to 1st grade before I ordered anything so I could see where there were gaps.  CLE has a tight spiral and an interesting way to target learning math facts to automaticity.  She is finally learning her math facts as well as increasing her conceptual understanding (but she did Ronit Bird first).  He may need to unlearn relying on counting though, and that will be harder.

 

3.  With reading and comprehension, does he do any better if he is listening to an audio book vs. reading it on his own?  If you read to him and have discussions does it help his retention at all?

 

4.  For writing, you might consider something incredibly systematic like IEW with Fix-It Grammar.  IEW was originally created because the author had a son who struggled for various reasons.  It can be sort of a straight jacketing approach for a natural writer but can really unlock doors for those that find writing to be a real challenge.

 

5.  Have him dictate his writing to you for a while.  Then both of you edit together.  Don't let his handwriting issues bog him down.

 

6.  You might look at software like Inspiration or Kidspiration along with Dragon Naturally Speaking and Ginger.  They might help with output while you seek further answers (professionally or otherwise :) ).

 

7.  Perhaps back off from structured school work for a bit to give you both a rest.  Do a lot of read alouds/audio books, field trips, documentaries, science and history projects.  Maybe have him pick a topic he has real interest in and the two of you find fun resources for studying that for a while.  There are many ways to learn.  Kids learn all the time without a systematic, structured approach.  

 

8.  I have found that when I get overwhelmed I get tunnel vision and I get depressed and I stop thinking clearly.  I lose all joy.  That is not a healthy or productive place to be.  When I am in that situation I usually have to just step back and do something different, more relaxed, more joy led, for a bit so I can remember why I am trying to teach my children in the first place.  It usually helps us all to find a better path when I can do that.

 

Hugs.  I am sorry you are struggling.  I fully understand.  I have to run but hopefully others will respond with suggestions that might be helpful to you.  Best wishes.

[PeterPan]

Oh Mae,  :grouphug: ...

 

First, have you considered meds and counseling?  You *know* I mean this really to be helpful, right?  You don't need a neuropsych.  What you need is help to apply what you already learned through the testing.  Honestly, EVERYTHING you just described is part of the package of ADHD.  It's pointless quibbling over whether the H is there or not, because *all* of it is now ADHD, whether they label it inattentive (what used to be ADD) or combined like they did.  Stop quibbling over it, accept, and let yourself have some peace.  You paid for the evals, the psych did it, the jury has spoken.  

 

It took me years to accept my psych was right about dd.  I fought it, said but he missed this and that.  He didn't.  He was just seeing more objectively than I could at the time.  Same deal with ds.  We just got our results this week, and while they weren't shocking there's still that element of people saying BUT, but, but... And it doesn't matter, because the way the DSM is ALL those things ARE included in the ADHD label.  And I'm promising you, being a bit further down the road, almost everything you listed is because of that ADHD label.

 

The one thing I'm seeing that I think warrants some further investigation if you want is the inferences. I was just going to say go get a speech eval, then I reread and caught you already have!   :hurray:  Well good job!  You've eliminated the other causes, so we're back to ADHD.  I KNOW that's a sucky pill to take and unfathomable.  

 

If I could sit with you for an afternoon, we'd just commiserate, and you'd share your "but he does THIS!" and I'd say "Yup, here too!"  Seriously.  

 

When we got my dd eval'd, the ladies told me to accept whatever the psych said, even if I disagreed, and just start asking how to apply it.  This turned out to be really GOOD advice, so I give it to you.  ACCEPT what the psych said for right now, even though you disagree.  Just accept and start applying.

 

So how to apply?  Well I don't know, are there any kick butt books as good as what SandyKC has done for dyslexia?  The Get Your Kid off the Frig book has some good points, but she's way too cheerleader for me.  

 

I think you have to start talking yourself down from your own tree.  You have to say things to yourself that are TRUE.  It's true that he has ADHD.  It's true that if you put him in school he *might* benefit from the structure or he *might* fall through the cracks.  If he's testing that well with the SLP, it's probably ALSO true that you've been doing a good job, even though it doesn't feel like it.  How were those achievement test scores?  

 

It's also true that when a dc gets an ADHD label usually *at least* one other parent has it.   :)  It's common for anxiety to go with that.  

 

He needs STRUCTURE.  That means clear expectations, routines, consistency.  

He needs physical outlets.  

He needs academic work that fits his best learning style. Depending on how bright he is, you may need to make some serious changes to get the peace you desire.

He needs techniques appropriate to ADHD (software for writing, technology to help him keep track of tasks, etc.).

He needs a mom who models mental health. The more you take care of YOURSELF the better you're going to be able to help him.

He may need meds.  If not meds, definitely some cognitive therapies.

 

You're concerned about not seeing symptoms before 1st grade.  Honestly, the behaviors may be so NORMAL in your family that you didn't see them.  Or it could be that indeed he had some event that brought it out or aggravated it.  Really though, the school work steps up in 1st grade.  He's probably been this way all along.  Even our SLP was blown away when I wrote her the labels.  There's just this tendency to assume things are "normal" because you're so used to them.

 

If you didn't like your psych, see if you can find someone well-respected for counseling for ADHD.  Given his age, you could look into CogMed or Neurofeedback.  You could consider meds ALONG WITH the counseling.  

 

Keep talking.  We'll help talk you through it.   :)

 

Adding: If you want to put him in school, he's probably going to need meds and a school with a teacher experienced with ADHD.  If he has ANY academic issues, you're probably better keeping him home.  Our psych was really straight with us that small group learning situations were ESSENTIAL for dd to succeed.  These kids fall through the cracks otherwise.  With ds, the psych asked if school was on the table and dropped it after that, meaning he didn't consider it an essential change.  Tutoring for the dyslexia, essential change.  But school, that's your option.  I agree your mental health is important.  I just think you CAN get through this and come to the other side with counseling, some meds or cognitive therapies.  But it's really your call.  I don't see how you put him in school without the meds though.  

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm going to try to go through your academic questions, but I'll probably ask more questions than I answer.  :D

 

-gifted--If his teachers were saying he is, he is.  What was his IQ?  Was the verbal at least in the very bright?  You said they did the short form?  I agree that's frustrating and doesn't give you much to work with.  What's done is done.  Time to STOP WORRYING and START APPLYING.  Seriously.  When there's no $$ for further tests, APPLY WHAT YOU HAVE.  What was the verbal score?  I'm guessing that's what the teachers were sensing.  

 

Somebody doesn't have to be profoundly gifted for there to be a significant difference in how you teach them.  â€Žassess.nelson.com/pdf/sb5-asb3.pdf  Scroll down through this and there will be a chart showing how IQ connects to teaching methods.  Jist is, the higher the IQ, the MORE they're going to push, want things their own way, have opinions, need input, despise busywork, etc.   Now personality can affect that too, but I'm guessing what you're running into with the writing is his IQ.  Seriously.

 

-math--Ok, OneStep is totally on here.  I SUFFERED for years with my dd with this, trying lots of methods (drill, visualization, stories, you name it).  Ronit Bird is the BEES KNEES.  I'm CRAZY for it, uber love.  Don't know for certain?  Get her one of her $10 ebooks and go through it with him.  He's older, so he'll go quickly.  I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE what RB does for my ds' thought process.

 

Now even visualization isn't going to change processing speed.  Did that short form IQ give you a processing speed?  Let's just assume it sucks.  Let's also assume that he fits the pattern Dyslexic Advantage describes, where the widely-spaced mini-columns in the brain (as seen with MRIs) require the brain to have MORE exposures MORE circuitous ways of getting there.  I highly recommend reading DA btw.  ADHD and dyslexia *used* to be lumped together diagnostically, and you're going to find things there to inspire you.  It was the book that helped me ACCEPT how my dd thinks.  I keep saying that word accept and I mean it.  Most things are harping on defects, but DA is positive.  Read it.  I think you'll get a ton of inspiration on how he thinks that you can apply to how you teach.

 

Btw, have you read Freed's book RightBrained Children in a LeftBrained World yet?  If you haven't, well it's time to solve that!!  :D  Seriously, that ONE BOOK could answer a lot of your questions.  It's probably going to be the closest thing to accurate or prescient you'll find about your dc, so get it.  

 

If you want to go in a radically different direction, get Right Side of Normal by Gaddis.  I'm not saying that's the way you should go, but I'm just saying balance is good and that sometimes it really resonates with people. 

 

The commonalities with the Eides, Freed, and Gaddis are saying it's ok to think in terms of positives, of what they CAN do rather than what they can't, on what they DO enjoy rather than what they don't, on what they ARE ready for rather than what they aren't.  And since ADHD is, by definition, something that responds to ENGAGEMENT, it's not shocking at all that becoming flexible in your thinking, shifting from what the system tells you "must be" to what the child WISHES IT COULD BE can make a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference.  Did I say that huge enough?  

 

The more you let go and look at the child, the more peace you will have.  Peace you will have.  It can come.  (Hear my Yoda voice.)  :)

 

-writing--Sigh, this is a long one.  Methinks me needs a new brain or to take up coffee or something.  You've got a lot there we could discuss!  :D  Seriously, I'm going to go refuel, and I'll come back.  Go back to my Yoda thought: Peace you can have.  It will come.  

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

What OhE said...  :laugh:

 

And big hugs.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Heathermomster]

Hugs. When I read your posting OP, your DS sounds awesome. How old is he and what does he enjoy doing?

 

When I started working with DS, I had this idea that a straight up Classical Ed WTM style would be awesome. Problems entered because the writing requirements and the materials don't suit my DS. You are going to need to accommodate your child and that's fine. You are home and can see where course corrections can be made. Does he have a learning style preference? Hands-on, visual, or auditory? Knowing his learning style preference will help direct you.

 

Teach your DS to type, spending 20 minutes per day and 5 days per week. Start practice first thing after breakfast and make it a priority. I am going to sound like a Nike commercial this morning and say, " Just do it."

 

Your DS can write beautiful cursive, but it is slow and inefficient. The typing will counter the slow handwriting with the added bonus of providing edits within the word processing software. Handwriting is probably killing his paragraph writing too. The typing will help that but not solve everything. As OneStep suggested, maybe look at IEW and scribe and co-write with him. 8Filltheheart recently published a writing curriculum. I would be tempted to use 8's program because it is how she taught her kids.

 

Definitely read the book by Ronit Bird titled Overcoming Difficulties with Number. That book contains a list of pre-skills that a student requires prior to moving to multiplication. The math issues you are describing sound like they could be rectified by using Cuisenaire rods and teaching the distributive property of multiplication. A regular poster on WTM put out videos called Education Unboxed. Ronit Bird has published an e-book that works with the IPad and uses c-rods as well. The fact that your DS added 35 together 5 times correctly encourages me.

 

For the ASD-ish reading comprehension issues, the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension series teaches inferences with reading. As I understand it, the program is expensive but highly effective. Maybe, have your DS draw picture notes as he reads. Allow him to look at the notes as he answers comprehension questions.

 

Have a blessed weekend!

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs. When I read your posting OP, your DS sounds awesome. How old is he and what does he enjoy doing?

 

When I started working with DS, I had this idea that a straight up Classical Ed WTM style would be awesome. Problems entered because the writing requirements and the materials don't suit my DS. You are going to need to accommodate your child and that's fine. You are home and can see where course corrections can be made. Does he have a learning style preference? Hands-on, visual, or auditory? Knowing his learning style preference will help direct you.

 

Teach your DS to type, spending 20 minutes per day and 5 days per week. Start practice first thing after breakfast and make it a priority. I am going to sound like a Nike commercial this morning and say, " Just do it."

 

Your DS can write beautiful cursive, but it is slow and inefficient. The typing will counter the slow handwriting with the added bonus of providing edits within the word processing software. Handwriting is probably killing his paragraph writing too. The typing will help that but not solve everything. As OneStep suggested, maybe look at IEW and scribe and co-write with him. 8Filltheheart recently published a writing curriculum. I would be tempted to use 8's program because it is how she taught her kids.

 

Definitely read the book by Ronit Bird titled Overcoming Difficulties with Number. That book contains a list of pre-skills that a student requires prior to moving to multiplication. The math issues you are describing sound like they could be rectified by using Cuisenaire rods and teaching the distributive property of multiplication. A regular poster on WTM put out videos called Education Unboxed. Ronit Bird has published an e-book that works with the IPad and uses c-rods as well. The fact that your DS added 35 together 5 times correctly encourages me.

 

For the ASD-ish reading comprehension issues, the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension series teaches inferences with reading. As I understand it, the program is expensive but highly effective. Maybe, have your DS draw picture notes as he reads. Allow him to look at the notes as he answers comprehension questions.

 

Have a blessed weekend!

:iagree:

 

I amend all previous statements to say listen to OhE and Heathermomster.  :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm back!  

 

-writing--This is hard, because we could go a couple different directions here.  I'll start with the obvious thing.  Your psych should have looked for dysgraphia, and if he didn't diagnose it it *might* not be there.  There are an astonishing amount of problems you can have without getting a dysgraphia label.  There are also disagreements on how to diagnose.  The Eides have said they will diagnose dysgraphia if the motor control for the handwriting is not automatic.  By that standard, my dd gets the label.  However she didn't, and that was from a good neuropsych.  I go back to accept, don't quibble.  That means to me there's a RANGE in what they're looking for and that she's not at the point where it gets her that label.  It DOESN'T mean we don't have a problem, just means it didn't get that label.  Doesn't mean I don't do something about it.

 

So here's where it gets complicated.  You could look at what you listed (chicken scratch, carryover, punctuation, margins) and have multiple explanations.  Does he have any indications there is a physical problem requiring an OT eval?  Does he slouch, have a weak core, complain of hand pain, have issues with vestibular or dizziness, sensory issues, or other body complaints?  Certainly OT issues are VERY common in this alphabet soup of kids.  Retained primitive reflexes can cause issues with sitting and sensory is, as our OT put it, the four alarm fire going off while they're trying to focus.  So yes, think through your situation and consider physical problems.

 

You also need to consider vision problems.  They're also very common in these kids.  You go to a COVD doc to get them checked.  I usually suggest starting with just the inexpensive annual visit (around here, about $60) but doing it WITH THE COVD DOC.  Tell him you're having oddities with reading and writing and ask him to SCREEN for the convergence, tracking, etc.  That way you're not doing a full eval (more $$) if there's no need.  

 

You don't want to spend tons of time and emotion assuming something is an academic problem if it's a vision problem.  That's why I always recommend getting it checked.  Teeth to the dentist, eyes to the developmental optometrist, every year.

 

Once you have those issues sorted out, then we can start into this longer discussion of how to approach writing.  But without that foundation, you don't have anything to build on.  

 

I agree with you about the classical composition programs btw.  They get these good ideas and intentions, but with some kids you're really going to have to flex it and apply to new material, do it a different way, condense, telescope, something.  When dd was younger CW was all the rage.  Now it's CC and some of the newer stuff.  Fine.  We were able to flex it and make it better, but honestly for us it was better to give up.  Extreme incrementalism in curriculum can be really frustrating.  Actually, the CW was frustrating because it tried to be EVERYTHING. With SWB's WWS, it's still super incremental, but the components are segmented into lessons, meaning you can skip the ones the dc doesn't need.  Also, my dd seems to have developed more ability to handle incrementalism and assigned tasks with age.  AGE might make a HUGE difference on this with your ds.  You're going to find that's a repeating theme with what I'm about to say.  :)

 

Ok, people debate how to teach writing and there are schools of thought on this.  I'm not up on them, but just realizing there *are* schools of thought can make you sort of flex your mind and give yourself permission to try a different one if the current one isn't working.  I'm not saying what I'm about to say is a school of thought, because a friend of mine with a phd in it thinks I'm very hack.  I say I'm pragmatic.  :D

 

-ability to get it down on paper

-ability to organize

-content

 

Each one has to be addressed, and each one comes in it's own way and time, depending on the dc.  I do NOT think one person/method/school of thought on this has it all locked up.  If you think being a SWB groupie and doing whatever she says will solve your problems, it won't.  Might be *part* of the solution, or it might steer you totally the wrong way.  Ditto for IEW.  Some people find IEW to be a two-edged sword, helping some things and making other things worse.  So look at your dc, find where the glitches are.  Then take a big pill of DEVELOPMENTAL READINESS.

 

Our culture has gotten on this big kick where they push certain types of writing younger and younger, and they're willing to do it at the expense of everything.  Write that paragraph, even with no good spelling.  Write using this form/outline, even if the content is disinteresting or doesn't reflect your thought process.  Write NOW, even if the same task, 3-4 years from now, would come more readily and another writing task right now be more developmentally appropriate.  

 

-ability to get it down on paper/screen--If you don't have this, where are you?  Yes, my dd did the hyper-condensing if she was BORED.  You said they're saying your ds is very bright or gifted.  He's probably bored.  I wouldn't do writing prompts unless they engaged him.  What engages a child varies, so I have no pat answers.  I know you're at a good age to teach typing, and I highly recommend it.  With my dd, typing was really a struggle.  I finally gave her an email account and a user account on the computer totally locked down to Dvorak (an alternate keyboard layout) so she couldn't peck.  She had friends she wanted to write, so she was very motivated.  Well that and I paid her heavily for progress.  :D  But it resulted in ABILITY TO GET IT ON PAPER/screen.  

 

-ability to organize--This is an EF skill and EF is typically delayed up to 30% in these kids.  Inspiration software is helpful.  I think at his age you could continue with narratives another year or two and not worry about structured writing at all.  Does he enjoy narrating orally his science or history or about books he reads?  He may need help (graphic organizers, inspiration/kidspiration, etc.) to organize his thoughts.  You might enjoy Bravewriter.  I got Jot It Down to use with my ds.  My dd enjoyed Writing Tales and also Wordsmith Apprentice at that age.  

 

If you read Freed, you'll find his method of modeling for writing instruction.  You might consider reading Freed before you buy anything first.  It might give you ideas on how to change how you use what you already have.  Sometimes it's not about the perfect curriculum but about changing how you use what you've got.  You could probably make CC work if you flexed it a lot.  I haven't seen it personally, so I'm just assuming it involves models and rewrites with particular skill goals, right?  One thing we enjoyed for modifying CW was to get more versions of the models and COMPARE them.  What approach did each writer use?  How well did that work?  Which one would we like to use?  And then allow/encourage creative additions.  WT has them but CW never had them at all, sigh.  Bright kids LOVE creative additions!  Change the setting, the time, the characters, the ending.  Shake it up!  Try to stick to only *one* variable.  My dd would get so many ideas, it would be too hard even to finish, lol.  

 

For structure, you can try to help them see the structure visually.  Bring the story into your word processor and separate the lines.  Then print and cut into strips that he can rearrange and work with.  

 

I'm out of time.  I'll come back later.  That's a start.  Oh, the quickie!  My dd's writing didn't really blossom until 8th grade.  At the time we were doing a lot of metronome work and digit spans.  I've seen other people saying age 16 for their boys.  LOTS of people find these kids blossom later for writing, more like 9th, 10th, 11th.  You can really give yourself a lot of heartbreak by expecting them to do what other kids do at this age rather than embracing what they CAN do and helping them do it WELL.  You might find their expression improves when they care about the content.  

 

Later!  :)

 

 

[PeterPan]

Yes to Heather's comments!!!  She's so much more concise.  :D

 

 

[MaeFlowers]

This wasn't a drive-by posting! I have a house full of boys 9-11 that slept over for ds' birthday.  I have read through your responses and I need to process a minute. I want to respond to everyone but it might take a bit.

[PeterPan]

I'm back for a few, but I'm gonna have less answers or ideas for you on this one.  :)  

 

-reading--Sigh...What turned up with the psych's achievement testing?  And did the SLP find *any* actual language processing issues when she did her testing?  I'm asking here, because it's easy for us to mis-identify what is going on.  The testing helps us pin that down and be precise, and precise words let us solve problems.  If the psych did achievement testing with no flags AND the SLP didn't find any red flags or incongruities or discrepancies, then you're back to ADHD, which means ENGAGEMENT.

 

I'm sorry, but the dirtiest word in all this is engagement.  No engagement, no attending.  No attending, no thinking.  No thinking, no comprehension, application, inferences, remembering, ANYTHING.

 

And we can say all day long the kid is being bad, the kid ought to revel in the virtues of Miller/Levine or Houghton/Mifflin or whatever it is we're foisting on them, but it is what it is.

 

Can we *change* inattention and thus improve the comprehension, synthesis, application, inferencing, etc.? Yes.

 

-add meds

-change materials

-change how you USE the materials--warm-up activities to build interest, 4SQR (I always forget and get that acronym wrong), etc.

 

To me it's like a toolbox, a set of options.  I walk up to the task and ask WHICH TOOL is the right one at this time.  If we ALWAYS use one tool, we're failing to recognize that another tool might have been the better one for that job.  If we ONLY use one tool, we fail to develop the facility to use the others.  

 

Toolbox.  And that's not a comprehensive list.  There are whole books on this if you search EF and reading on amazon.  I've probably got stuff.  I think I have some gibberish books the psych said to get on how to improve EF in the classroom.  Whatever.  That's how I handle it.

 

When your ds is testing at gr 12+ on a bunch of things, it's PROBABLY largely inattention (no brain engagement) that is the problem. IF those evals turned up some holes, by all means work on those holes.  But in my small experience, not attending, not turning on their brains, not engaging, is going to account for a LOT of it.  And we can say it shouldn't be that way, but to me moralizing and calling the child bad doesn't really solve the problem, kwim?  I'm about problem solving.  What are my tools and which tool is the timely one for this situation with this child?

 

My personal answer has been to move to more engaging materials a LOT of the time and bring in the less engaging materials *sporadically* to build that skill.  You can find your balance on that, certainly.  I think the balance is different with a 9 yo than a 15 yo.

 

The more we foist things on them and turn their school time into must, must, must, using methods that constantly grate against their natural proclivities, the more we turn off and SQUASH what they could have brought to the table.  I think it's fair to ponder how much you want to squash that vs. how much you're willing to compromise.  There are a lot of things I thought were good over the years that we DIDN'T do, because my dd just wasn't clicking with them.  And I suppose I could have delayed a year, said she must, whatever.  But you know, we didn't.  And now, she has her own internal drive and is WILLING to do her school work and doesn't buck me.

 

You mentioned how much he's driving you crazy when you try to implement routines and structure and checklists.  I hear you.  The first, um, 12-13 years of her life, my dd started every day saying "What are we doing today?" with this gleeful hope in her eye that it was going to be the park, a field trip, something exciting, something novel.  Then, around 7/8th the child would wake up each day accepting that we REALLY WERE going to do school that day and then ask "Do I have to?"  It's ONLY this year, 10th, that my dd wakes up every day with the program and with it in her head that she's going to do her work!!!  And even then she still has Mary Poppins days.   :lol:   We call it a Mary Poppins day when the wind blows and she just CAN'T FOCUS, no matter what.

 

I'm perfectly aware we could medicate her.  We've talked about it.  I also know that medication makes it *easier* to work on the EF skills but doesn't eliminate the need to work on them, teach them, develop them.  Me, sure, I'm all for some magic cure that makes everything easy.  Sign us up.  She's not on meds now, and we work with it.  I have no opinion on what you should do.  I'm saying either way, you STILL have challenges.  The fact that he's hard to work with for structure does NOT mean you're doing something wrong.  Now it might be meds would help get signals to connect.  It might be you could find some currency to motivate him.  I just had a thread here on LC about motivation.  I'm working on increasing the structure for ds so we can do some dyslexia remediation, and he's a serious challenge to work with.  

 

Ok, I just said ds is a serious challenge.  Sigh.  I've talked about this on here.  He wakes up very strongly internally driven.  In fact, we've, ahem, had some other labels on the table of discussion because he's pretty wow sometimes to work with.  The psych said because of his IQ I'm going to have to be really flexible.  With dd, my only flexibility has needed to be changing material or letting her have Mary Poppins days.  With ds the psych was encouraging us to go toward a guy thing of earned time, work responsibilities.  I'm spending these days getting the ideas and the new terms of our arrangements into his mind, because if they're not in there you can't get much done.   :lol: 

 

I'm just saying all that to say I sympathize and agree that not every case is as pretty as hand them the checklist and all your problems go away.  That's why I STRONGLY encourage you to get some counseling.  That way someone who has a lot of experience with this could look at the personality and interests of your dc and help you with some tools and methodologies that would fit him.  That can be a clinical psych, an EF coach, whatever.  Yes, there are certified EF coaches!  

 

Ok, I don't want to be trite, honest, but I'm going to be.  If you're saying it 100 times, it's time to stop.  Say it once and mean it.  Have everything clear.  Look at that post on reward structures and think how you can change the dynamic to get HIM motivated to implement some of the goals.  If some of the things are obedience, you may need to step it up.  

 

Even think about basic things like where you can bring in some scripture memory or reading stories about character or whatever fits your values/beliefs to give you something you can harness as you work with the child.  

 

Routine at this age is still something you make happen by YOUR energy.  That's not pretty, but it's true.  Like put on your shoes, drink your coffee, have your list.

 

For us, some of the conflicts at that age were because I didn't understand dd's sensory issues and ebb and flow.  We've cut a lot of deals over the years.  She's allowed to sleep in ridiculously late (like 10 am) because she needs a lot of sleep, and we have an agreement to STAY APART until she's fully awake.  For her that can be quite a while, 1-2 hours!  She takes some of her school reading into her room and reads that for a while before she comes out.  It's eliminating conflicts, living in peace, developing routines.

 

You can do it.  Make a list of what bugs the tar out of you (not academics but the child, how your day goes, etc.) and be precise, then PROBLEM SOLVE.  If you can't solve the problems yourself, ask here or get counseling.  Think about what work(ed) well for him in other situations and see if there are principles you could carry over to your time at home.  If he's better in gym/sports or Sunday School or ps or whatever, ask why and what things that leader is doing that you can implement.  It might be their schedule or how they talk with him or whatever.  

 

:)

[PeterPan]

This wasn't a drive-by posting! I have a house full of boys 9-11 that slept over for ds' birthday.  I have read through your responses and I need to process a minute. I want to respond to everyone but it might take a bit.

What a hoot!!  I can't imagine!!  One 6 yo boy in the house is enough for me, lol.  

 

Adding: By all means others should come into this thread and say totally contradictory things to what I said and give their experiences and whatnot. :)  I'm just being overly verbose, as usual.  There's a range of experiences, and just because that's the way *I* am handling stuff doesn't mean it's the way *you* have to.  

[OneStepAtATime]

This wasn't a drive-by posting! I have a house full of boys 9-11 that slept over for ds' birthday.  I have read through your responses and I need to process a minute. I want to respond to everyone but it might take a bit.

:lol:

[MaeFlowers]

Hugs!  Big hugs!  I agree, I think a neuropsych eval would probably help (although I would be seeking someone trained in 2e kids) but since that is out right now and you already have some evaluations, I am editing my original post to say accept the info you have for now, as OhE says.  I have some suggestions but definitely read OhElizabeth's responses further down.  I think she can be a real help to you.  

 

Other than that,  this is what I suggest (but my situation is a bit different from yours so take this with a grain of salt).

 

1.  Step back in math.  Read Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers by Ronit Bird.  Start working with him on basic subitization skills.  And recognize that math facts take different processes than "thinking math" like Beast Academy.  You might want to read How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.  There are many children who struggle to remember math facts but do really well with conceptual math.  Again, two different processes.

 

2.  Maybe give him the placement tests for something with a tight spiral that strongly reviews math facts in targeted ways and look at possibly switching him to that program.  DD switched to CLE, which does those things, but she took the free on-line placement tests going all the way back to 1st grade before I ordered anything so I could see where there were gaps.  CLE has a tight spiral and an interesting way to target learning math facts to automaticity.  She is finally learning her math facts as well as increasing her conceptual understanding (but she did Ronit Bird first).  He may need to unlearn relying on counting though, and that will be harder.

 

We started last year with MM. He finished the year in about 2 months and whined all the way through it. He got it, but he didn't. It just didn't stick. This year we switched to Saxon. The spiral method is awesome for him and he has no complaints. But, because of the way he computes, the process is harder than it needs to be. Does that make sense? The conceptual process is being hindered by his lack of math facts. Your right, he has to unlearn the counting method. Dh's aunt (elementary teacher) told me this a long time ago and said it would be very hard to do. I thought with time it would work itself out but I was wrong.

 

3.  With reading and comprehension, does he do any better if he is listening to an audio book vs. reading it on his own?  If you read to him and have discussions does it help his retention at all?

 

I have not tried audio books with him. I just have a feeling it would not work. I honestly have not found much of a difference between him reading on his own vs. my reading to him. It almost seems to depend on the day. We have been working through How to Teach Your Children Shakespeare. He memorizes the excerpts faster than I can. I asked him how he remembers them and he said he can see the words on the page in his head.  I have, and maybe I shouldn't have, assumed that reading on his own would be better. I thought maybe he had a better visual memory.

 

4.  For writing, you might consider something incredibly systematic like IEW with Fix-It Grammar.  IEW was originally created because the author had a son who struggled for various reasons.  It can be sort of a straight jacketing approach for a natural writer but can really unlock doors for those that find writing to be a real challenge.

 

I have looked at IEW many times and thought it might be a good fit for him. I will look at it again.

 

5.  Have him dictate his writing to you for a while.  Then both of you edit together.  Don't let his handwriting issues bog him down.

 

 

6.  You might look at software like Inspiration or Kidspiration along with Dragon Naturally Speaking and Ginger.  They might help with output while you seek further answers.

 

I started doing his writing for him this year. It makes a huge difference. I do try and make him do some writing on his own. I am honestly just not sure how much.

 

7.  Perhaps back off from structured school work for a bit to give you both a rest.  Do a lot of read alouds/audio books, field trips, documentaries, science and history projects.  Maybe have him pick a topic he has real interest in and the two of you find fun resources for studying that for a while.  There are many ways to learn.  Kids learn all the time without a systematic, structured approach.  

 

8.  I have found that when I get overwhelmed I get tunnel vision and I get depressed and I stop thinking clearly.  I lose all joy.  That is not a healthy or productive place to be.  When I am in that situation I usually have to just step back and do something different, more relaxed, more joy led, for a bit so I can remember why I am trying to teach my children in the first place.  It usually helps us all to find a better path when I can do that.

 

I think we need to do this. Just back off a bit. It's so hard for me, though! Thanks for reminding me.

 

Hugs.  I am sorry you are struggling.  I fully understand.  I have to run but hopefully others will respond with suggestions that might be helpful to you.  Best wishes.

 

 

 

[MaeFlowers]

When my now-16yo son turned 10yo, we said he could have a sleepover. Going with the rule of thumb that says you should invite twice as many as you expect to come, we invited about twenty boys. Every. Single. One. came to the sleepover.

 

It was one of the worst nights of my life. (LOL)

 

Edited to add: We never did that again. (LOL)

 

Oh, we didn't invite that many! Ds doesn't even have that many friends. I can't imagine though.

 

Overall, the boys have been good. We gave him a baskbetball hoop for his birthday and planned mostly outdoor activities including a bonfire so I could keep them outside most of the time. We live in GA and the weather is usually so nice this time of year for outdoor parties.

 

It also makes it better for opening up his windows and airing out his bedroom. Groups of boys = stinky for some reason.

 

[MaeFlowers]

Oh Mae,  :grouphug: ...

 

First, have you considered meds and counseling?  You *know* I mean this really to be helpful, right?  You don't need a neuropsych.  What you need is help to apply what you already learned through the testing.  Honestly, EVERYTHING you just described is part of the package of ADHD.  It's pointless quibbling over whether the H is there or not, because *all* of it is now ADHD, whether they label it inattentive (what used to be ADD) or combined like they did.  Stop quibbling over it, accept, and let yourself have some peace.  You paid for the evals, the psych did it, the jury has spoken.  

 

It took me years to accept my psych was right about dd.  I fought it, said but he missed this and that.  He didn't.  He was just seeing more objectively than I could at the time.  Same deal with ds.  We just got our results this week, and while they weren't shocking there's still that element of people saying BUT, but, but... And it doesn't matter, because the way the DSM is ALL those things ARE included in the ADHD label.  And I'm promising you, being a bit further down the road, almost everything you listed is because of that ADHD label.

 

I know. I really do. It's ADHD. I keep trying to talk myself out of it because I don't know how to deal with it. I don't understand it. I want to understand it. And I'm struggling. I read the books and they describe him, sort of. Because he really isn't the hyperactive part. And many of the books I read mainly address this part.

 

The one thing I'm seeing that I think warrants some further investigation if you want is the inferences. I was just going to say go get a speech eval, then I reread and caught you already have!   :hurray:  Well good job!  You've eliminated the other causes, so we're back to ADHD.  I KNOW that's a sucky pill to take and unfathomable.  

 

If I could sit with you for an afternoon, we'd just commiserate, and you'd share your "but he does THIS!" and I'd say "Yup, here too!"  Seriously.  

 

When we got my dd eval'd, the ladies told me to accept whatever the psych said, even if I disagreed, and just start asking how to apply it.  This turned out to be really GOOD advice, so I give it to you.  ACCEPT what the psych said for right now, even though you disagree.  Just accept and start applying.

 

So how to apply?  Well I don't know, are there any kick butt books as good as what SandyKC has done for dyslexia?  The Get Your Kid off the Frig book has some good points, but she's way too cheerleader for me.  

 

I think you have to start talking yourself down from your own tree.  You have to say things to yourself that are TRUE.  It's true that he has ADHD.  It's true that if you put him in school he *might* benefit from the structure or he *might* fall through the cracks.  If he's testing that well with the SLP, it's probably ALSO true that you've been doing a good job, even though it doesn't feel like it.  How were those achievement test scores?  

 

I pulled him out because I saw him falling through the cracks. He wasn't a squeaky wheel. I can't really use achievement tests scores. That is one of the issues. His test scores are all over the place, even in the same subjects. There is no consistency. Which adds to my frustration. I did figure out last year that he just picks the first answer that sounds good in multiple choice. So if option A sounds good, he doesn't even read the other options. He said that is what they taught him to do in ps. :glare:

 

It's also true that when a dc gets an ADHD label usually *at least* one other parent has it.   :)  It's common for anxiety to go with that.

 

That would be DH. He isn't diagnosed but ds is just a smaller version of dh. It is so exhausting. I have learned over the years to block out the things dh does to some degree but I can't do that with ds. The idea that dd might be ADHD just makes me want to cry...and the runaway.

 

He needs STRUCTURE.  That means clear expectations, routines, consistency.  

We are terrible at structure. Well, the routines and consistency part. I guess we are consistent in our lack of routine. Dh is self employed and hhis schedule varies daily. Plus, there are sleep issues galore in this house. I think it needs to go at the top of my plan of attack.

He needs physical outlets.  

I was so sad when the trampoline finally gave out. But, that is one of the reasons we bought the basketball hoop for his birthday. I am thinking about building some baggo boards, too. It isn't too physically strenuous but I think it would be good for other reasons. And I need to make him run around the house more. I mean that literally. He loves it.

He needs academic work that fits his best learning style. Depending on how bright he is, you may need to make some serious changes to get the peace you desire.

I think I am going to have to admit the WTM method is just not a good fit for him. I am just not sure exactly what his style is. :confused1:

He needs techniques appropriate to ADHD (software for writing, technology to help him keep track of tasks, etc.).

He needs a mom who models mental health. The more you take care of YOURSELF the better you're going to be able to help him.

He may need meds.  If not meds, definitely some cognitive therapies.

He's in big trouble then! I am terrible at taking care of myself. I put everyone else first. I have been trying to work on this. It is so counterintuitive so it is slow going. I don't know if he needs meds. Dh and I have talked about this. Dh hates the idea of meds so I agreed to try without meds for a bit (6 mnths). I just feel so overwhelmed and am not sure where to start. I don't even know what cognitive therapies you are referring to? Most of what I have seen has been behavioral.

 

You're concerned about not seeing symptoms before 1st grade.  Honestly, the behaviors may be so NORMAL in your family that you didn't see them.  Or it could be that indeed he had some event that brought it out or aggravated it.  Really though, the school work steps up in 1st grade.  He's probably been this way all along.  Even our SLP was blown away when I wrote her the labels.  There's just this tendency to assume things are "normal" because you're so used to them.

DD was born at the end of 1st grade. I have wondered if I started noticing then because ds had to start doing more for himself.

 

If you didn't like your psych, see if you can find someone well-respected for counseling for ADHD.  Given his age, you could look into CogMed or Neurofeedback.  You could consider meds ALONG WITH the counseling.  

 

Keep talking.  We'll help talk you through it.   :)

 

Adding: If you want to put him in school, he's probably going to need meds and a school with a teacher experienced with ADHD.  If he has ANY academic issues, you're probably better keeping him home.  Our psych was really straight with us that small group learning situations were ESSENTIAL for dd to succeed.  These kids fall through the cracks otherwise.  With ds, the psych asked if school was on the table and dropped it after that, meaning he didn't consider it an essential change.  Tutoring for the dyslexia, essential change.  But school, that's your option.  I agree your mental health is important.  I just think you CAN get through this and come to the other side with counseling, some meds or cognitive therapies.  But it's really your call.  I don't see how you put him in school without the meds though.  

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Yes to spiral math.  And yes, you're seeing low processing speed there, with how long it takes him to think through the math *and* the discrepancy between what he can think and what he can write.  That's why scribing helps him.  With my dd, I used a large whiteboard.  Sometimes we'd both work and sometimes I'd scribe for her.  Just shake things up.

 

What you're describing with him seeing the page in his head is VSL.  Freed talks about this.  (Remember the Freed book I said would solve all your problems?   :D  )  Freed encourages *visualization* for everything you can: visualization for math facts, spelling, vocabulary, writing structure, anything.  So when you go back and cover the math other ways (Ronit Bird, RightStart, whatever), what you're actually doing is trying to give him ways to visualize the math!  The trick is not to go too slowly.  

 

Yes, once he can read faster than the audiobooks, he won't want to listen to them so much.  He might enjoy them while he does other things, but you're right that he is moving on.

 

Sounds like you're very in-tune with him and making good choices!  You know more than you realize!!   :)

[kbutton]

OhElizabeth sort of brought this up, but I would add that it's easy to focus on outlying things and say, "but what about...," and those buts include things they CAN do well sometimes, not just the quirks that show some kind of problem area. You may be seeing certain things he does well on a good day, and while that may show his true capability, it may not reflect his current capacity. The bar may need to be lowered, not because he's not smart enough for x or y, but because no one wants to be expected to perform at their very tippy top best every day, except maybe Olympic athletes or world class surgeons. And for 2e kids, being asked to work at the limit of their capabilities every day is exhausting. Lowering the bar can look as different from one child to the next as acceleration looks from one child to the next. We've had to do this, and I think it's appropriate to call it going slower to go faster (I am pretty sure I've heard that on this board). You might slow down one thing to make room for something lagging behind. You might take more time to solidify a skill because automaticity is important. Our OT noticed that our younger son has some significant issues with automaticity, sequencing (not making patterns, but keeping track of sequences), processing speed, etc. However, in areas where he is very motivated, he has splinter skills that are unusual--in other words, he has things he can do that should be difficult for him. His cursive writing is very good, and most 6 y.o. boys don't work on cursive, particularly ones with trouble making skills automatic. He wanted to learn, and he was struggling but having fun. I slowed things way down (beyond what the book required), and we did a lot of large muscle writing on the white board, etc. It paid off. He's still a very slow writer, but it's all becoming automatic, and that's the only way to make anything go faster. 

 

Some things I'm hearing that I think warrant another look--adding by 5, 35 times may be his preference because it's more familiar and therefore more automatic. I would also point out that good working memory can vary by content. My son has excellent working memory for verbal material but not numbers. You might be able to make multiplication more appealing by throwing in some scaffolding. (Bear with me, Ronit Bird may be what you need; I don't know, but assume for a moment that it's just a fact retention problem and nothing else). Using a math fact chart and a list of steps to complete a multi-digit multiplication or division problem may free up enough throughput to gain some automaticity with algorithms. The math fact chart may actually help retain facts--what's the difference in reviewing a fact through flash cards or repeated reference to a list? Or, you might even allow him to drill his facts by punching numbers into a calculator, and he can "see" the calculator keys in his head later (two people in my home remember phone numbers by dialing a pretend phone in their head). Automaticity is HUGE. My younger kiddo can't do anything automatically except breathing. His processing speed is abysmal. I would find out what you can do to help with processing, and that will mean lightening the load and scaling back in order to lay some groundwork. Even if it doesn't help with math, it will help with anything that involved procedural thinking, sequencing, etc.

 

I would be working on the inferencing--it's odd to have such a huge discrepancy between reading ability and comprehension. I would consider using something like Inference Jones for inferencing (don't be afraid of grade levels--the 3/4 and 5/6 have similar inferencing requirements, it's just the length of passage and reading level of the material that changes, and if he can't inference, it won't hurt to do 3rd/4th grade inferencing). I would get the book, not the software and then DO IT TOGETHER for a while. I would also consider looking at the The Reader's Handbook or another guide that will teach your son what to look for while reading. I can literally read a whole chapter of a book out loud and not really think because reading is so automatic. The Reader's Handbook gives strategies for how to glean information from a text, and it shows how to do this with lots of different kinds of text. 

 

It sounds like your son has trouble generalizing familiar skills to new areas of study. This is a big problem for my DS 10 on the spectrum (he also has ADHD). It means building in processes for doing things--if he's learning grammar, it means that he has to be told, "Hey, that capitalization rule you learned last week applies and so does the new one. Apply the new rule first so that you don't forget, and then go back through your other rules and see if you need to use them too." My son can know something backwards and forwards, but change the context or format, and he "loses" it. So, exposing your son to the same concept in many different places may be necessary. 

 

The book Different Minds by Dierdre Lovecky has some good information comparing gifted kids with ADHD, ASD, etc. almost side by side. One chapter goes through school skills/problems and shows the nuances in how these 2e perform and what can be done to help them. I am finding it really helpful.

[OneStepAtATime]

Audio books were a huge, huge leap for DS10.  Suddenly books made sense.  It inspired a stronger desire to read, too.  Comprehension is strong for DS with audio books!  He isn't bogged down with the decoding/fluency process, just listening to the words.  He does o.k. when I read.  He does better with an audio book because he can listen to it as many times as he likes, he can pick it up and just run with it instead of waiting for me, and it isn't as taxing when he has had a long day as trying to read on his own. Also, he can listen to a book that is above his reading level and be exposed to the more advanced concepts/grammar/vocabulary that he needs and wants.  In fact, it is relaxing for him and gives him a sense of independence.  Retention goes up when he listens multiple times, but even just once through things usually stick pretty well.  He needs to be doing something while he listens, though.  He is working on a project or even other academics or bouncing on a trampoline....he does not do as well just sitting and listening.

 

DD, and audio books don't work nearly as well, but she is another kettle of fish altogether.  

 

You could at least try.  Start with a book that he wants to read.  Something of interest to him.  A book in a series might help because as he listens to the stories the overall setting and characters become familiar.  He doesn't have to reinvent the wheel with each book as he tries to understand and retain what is happening.  Have him listen at least a bit every day, but when he is done with the whole series, see if he would be willing to listen again.  I know some kids won't because they think they remember everything.  If they listen again, though, and the story is engaging and well-written, they will find things they missed the first time.  This is when the depth of a well-written story really starts to be internalized, IMHO.

[PeterPan]

PS. You know you're in grad school for this now, right?  You've already got your BS in education the hard way the last 4 years, now you're earning your Masters!  :)

 

It really is ok to feel like this is hard stuff.  It doesn't mean you can't do it.  Just means it's out of the norm and extra.  :)

[kbutton]

I can't get the quote feature to work, but what you said about his teachers telling him to guess at the first option that sounds good--that's called over-generalizing. He probably took a skill the teacher tried to to teach and "rounded up" with the facts. Failing to generalize and over-generalizing go together like peas and carrots. These kids can be getting stellar information, but they do kind of wild stuff with it. And since they are getting part of the information, they look like their learning is unreliable rather than that they are lost (and they are actually more lost than unreliable).

 

Honestly, a lot of what you're saying screams spectrum to me, but I know you have ruled it out. However, I would keep an open mind about it--we were in the position of having noticed differences in our PDD-NOS son since birth, but the early autism screenings weren't really indicating a problem. Sometimes those surveys need to be accompanied by a healthy dose of "what exactly is a repetitive behavior?" We thought our son didn't fit the profile because of things we initially misunderstood about the questions, basically because we knew kids on the spectrum that had more classic presentations. Some of these kids have very subtle presentations of spectrum symptoms. At any rate, several of the skills you are saying that your son is struggling with are things our ASD kiddo has trouble with, so you might expand your reading materials to include stuff that covers 2e kids with ASD. One book that might give some useful information is called School Success for Kids with Autism Spectrum Disorders. It drills down to some of these underlying skills and talks about how to gird up those areas. And again, the Lovecky book is excellent.

[MaeFlowers]

Ok, I'm going to try to go through your academic questions, but I'll probably ask more questions than I answer.   :D

 

-gifted--If his teachers were saying he is, he is.  What was his IQ?  Was the verbal at least in the very bright?  You said they did the short form?  I agree that's frustrating and doesn't give you much to work with.  What's done is done.  Time to STOP WORRYING and START APPLYING.  Seriously.  When there's no $$ for further tests, APPLY WHAT YOU HAVE.  What was the verbal score?  I'm guessing that's what the teachers were sensing.

 

His IQ scores were average. I mean flat out 50% across the board. There was 1 point difference between the verbal and performance IQ measures. He was given the WASI-II. So, no processing speed tests. The tests don't measure up to people's perceptions of him. His teachers always thought that he was one of the brightest kids in the class but it's so hard to tell. Sometimes he is slow on the uptake (as in slow to catch on) and I wonder if this is the ADHD? I say this because he doesn't often answer the question you are asking because he is thinking about something else. He doesn't hear the question because he isn't listening. He jumps to conclusions...does that make sense? This is where I really wish I could afford a neuropysch...not because I care so much about the number because they would watch HOW he processes the info and could give me better insight.

 

Somebody doesn't have to be profoundly gifted for there to be a significant difference in how you teach them.  â€Žassess.nelson.com/pdf/sb5-asb3.pdf  Scroll down through this and there will be a chart showing how IQ connects to teaching methods.  Jist is, the higher the IQ, the MORE they're going to push, want things their own way, have opinions, need input, despise busywork, etc.   Now personality can affect that too, but I'm guessing what you're running into with the writing is his IQ.  Seriously.

 

-math--Ok, OneStep is totally on here.  I SUFFERED for years with my dd with this, trying lots of methods (drill, visualization, stories, you name it).  Ronit Bird is the BEES KNEES.  I'm CRAZY for it, uber love.  Don't know for certain?  Get her one of her $10 ebooks and go through it with him.  He's older, so he'll go quickly.  I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE what RB does for my ds' thought process.

 

Now even visualization isn't going to change processing speed.  Did that short form IQ give you a processing speed?  Let's just assume it sucks.  Let's also assume that he fits the pattern Dyslexic Advantage describes, where the widely-spaced mini-columns in the brain (as seen with MRIs) require the brain to have MORE exposures MORE circuitous ways of getting there.  I highly recommend reading DA btw.  ADHD and dyslexia *used* to be lumped together diagnostically, and you're going to find things there to inspire you.  It was the book that helped me ACCEPT how my dd thinks.  I keep saying that word accept and I mean it.  Most things are harping on defects, but DA is positive.  Read it.  I think you'll get a ton of inspiration on how he thinks that you can apply to how you teach.

 

Btw, have you read Freed's book RightBrained Children in a LeftBrained World yet?  If you haven't, well it's time to solve that!!   :D  Seriously, that ONE BOOK could answer a lot of your questions.  It's probably going to be the closest thing to accurate or prescient you'll find about your dc, so get it.  

 

If you want to go in a radically different direction, get Right Side of Normal by Gaddis.  I'm not saying that's the way you should go, but I'm just saying balance is good and that sometimes it really resonates with people. 

 

The commonalities with the Eides, Freed, and Gaddis are saying it's ok to think in terms of positives, of what they CAN do rather than what they can't, on what they DO enjoy rather than what they don't, on what they ARE ready for rather than what they aren't.  And since ADHD is, by definition, something that responds to ENGAGEMENT, it's not shocking at all that becoming flexible in your thinking, shifting from what the system tells you "must be" to what the child WISHES IT COULD BE can make a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference.  Did I say that huge enough?  

 

I am trying to be more flexible in my thinking. I just haven't made it there yet. Obviously. I think I have a lot of reading to do.

 

The more you let go and look at the child, the more peace you will have.  Peace you will have.  It can come.  (Hear my Yoda voice.)   :)

 

-writing--Sigh, this is a long one.  Methinks me needs a new brain or to take up coffee or something.  You've got a lot there we could discuss!   :D  Seriously, I'm going to go refuel, and I'll come back.  Go back to my Yoda thought: Peace you can have.  It will come.  

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

I'm replying to more of what you wrote in the quotes.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/NCBDDD/adhd/diagnosis.html  Here's the CDC page.  You might be getting caught up in the H and missing the impulsivity.  There must have been SOMETHING that psych saw.  

 

You mentioned your new basketball goal.  That's awesome!  Have you thought about putting him into basketball at the Y or Upwards or something and getting him out, doing sports like that, several hours a day, most days a week?  Some serious physical activity might make a big difference. 

 

Definitely that's a challenge when the father is at home.  Maybe Dad needs to have an office or *you two* need an office space with a door that SHUTS.  Identify the problem in concrete words and work on solving it.  

 

And yes, I'm like you, this great lover of all things floozy.  Actually I forget to eat and do all kinds of basic things without structure.  For *me* what really helps is pin points.  I shoot for *routine* not schedule.  Routine means this is followed by that.  Pinpoints, anchor points, for me are things like breakfast, lunch, etc.  In order to get to eat, you need to do THIS on your list.  After we eat breakfast we always...  See?  Anchor points, routine, pattern, structure.  Not 8 am this, 9 am that, cuz I'm not better at requiring that than you.  ;)

 

I am apparently incapable of creating or enforcing bedtime routines.  Dh takes care of it.  If you think you have an endocrine issue (melatonin levels, etc.), I suggest a new thread.  I will say if you have a 9 yo boy at home all day and he's NOT going out and doing some SERIOUSLY PHYSICAL LABOR for 2 hours a day, it's not shocking that he's not winding down.  

 

That's great that Dad is opposed to meds, since he doesn't have to teach him.   :lol:   I *get* it, because we're having that talk here.  I will tell you it's bunk and you should push it harder.  The ONLY cognitive therapies that seem to make a hill of beans difference in some populations (not all) according to the research are Cogmed and Neurofeedback.  Neurofeedback is great when it works and does nothing in the situations where it doesn't work.  I think it's so new that I think the variable is the software and system, not whether it *can* work.  I would LOVE to do nf with both my kids.  Show me the money and I'm there!  Cogmed has tons of research behind it, and again it works for some populations and does nothing for others (like the 5-7 yos in their most recent study on their site).  Cogmed does *not* technically affect attention, but it improves other things cognitively that allow them to function better, which improves how it feels to work with them.

 

So I'm all for miracle cures, but that's it, the whole list.  Sure diet and omega 3 and more exercise and...  But yeah, with as frustrated as you are, I'd suggested strengthening up your inner resolve.  I mean, YOU are the teacher, YOU are the one overwhelmed, and 6 months is the end of the school year.  What good does that do???  I'd flip it, tell him you want the meds NOW and that you'll re-evaluate in a few months when you see the changes.  This is NOT a one-sided thing.  YOU are the one teaching and YOU are the one frustrated.  Your dh isn't the one dealing with it, so he CANNOT have the final vote.  Your vote has to count more.

 

Hmm, interesting correlation on your dd being born.  It was always there.  You don't have something dramatic like a brain injury, sickness leading to PANDAS, etc....  It was always there.  Maybe with just one (and that he was younger) it didn't drive you so crazy.  The older they get, the more they sprout and the more stuff comes out.  With an additional child, discipline is harder.  

 

 

[PeterPan]

I'm with Kbutton on the virtues of multiplication tables, etc.  I would say though that the ability to visualize the math so you UNDERSTAND the table can be good.  It's really two different ways of harnessing his visual, not mutually exclusive.  So something like RB or RS (just the Transitions book) would let him build his visualization, then you use the tables to build visual memory, let them explore patterns, etc.

[MaeFlowers]

Can you tell how much of a linear thinker I am? I have to respond to the posts in order or I get discombobulated.

Hugs. When I read your posting OP, your DS sounds awesome. How old is he and what does he enjoy doing?

He IS awesome. Thank you! He is turning 10 next week. He loves playing with his friends, video games, working in the yard, and science. All kinds of science.
When I started working with DS, I had this idea that a straight up Classical Ed WTM style would be awesome. Problems entered because the writing requirements and the materials don't suit my DS. You are going to need to accommodate your child and that's fine. You are home and can see where course corrections can be made. Does he have a learning style preference? Hands-on, visual, or auditory? Knowing his learning style preference will help direct you.
I have realized the WTM method is not the best fit for him. All the reading and writing is just not a good fit for him. I'm starting to realize that videos are his best input method. He seems to glean far more from them than reading or hands-on work. And spiral type repitition.
Teach your DS to type, spending 20 minutes per day and 5 days per week. Start practice first thing after breakfast and make it a priority. I am going to sound like a Nike commercial this morning and say, " Just do it."
He has been working on typing for about 6 months (save for summer break). It has been slow, slow, slow. I don't know if it is the best method, either. Is it normally a very slow process.
Your DS can write beautiful cursive, but it is slow and inefficient. The typing will counter the slow handwriting with the added bonus of providing edits within the word processing software. Handwriting is probably killing his paragraph writing too. The typing will help that but not solve everything. As OneStep suggested, maybe look at IEW and scribe and co-write with him. 8Filltheheart recently published a writing curriculum. I would be tempted to use 8's program because it is how she taught her kids.
I was looking at 8's program to finish out the year and then maybe moving into IEW next year. Her program looks wonderful!
Definitely read the book by Ronit Bird titled Overcoming Difficulties with Number. That book contains a list of pre-skills that a student requires prior to moving to multiplication. The math issues you are describing sound like they could be rectified by using Cuisenaire rods and teaching the distributive property of multiplication. A regular poster on WTM put out videos called Education Unboxed. Ronit Bird has published an e-book that works with the IPad and uses c-rods as well. The fact that your DS added 35 together 5 times correctly encourages me.

For the ASD-ish reading comprehension issues, the SRA Corrective Reading Comprehension series teaches inferences with reading. As I understand it, the program is expensive but highly effective. Maybe, have your DS draw picture notes as he reads. Allow him to look at the notes as he answers comprehension questions.

I will look into this. Price is definitely a deterent for us right now.

Have a blessed weekend!

 

[PeterPan]

Just to expand on what OneStep is saying, if you wish to try audiobooks with him you'll need to know *why* you're doing them.  With his high reading level and reading speed, he may enjoy them for things he's not ready to read on his own.  You could try classics from the junior high and high school reading lists from WTM/MFW/SL. Or go a different direction entirely and try podcasts from the BBC, old time radio shows, something totally different.

 

Oh, you mentioned you think WTM might not work for him.  Um, yeah.   :D  Wanna get ugly?  SWB has admitted on video it sucked for her middle kid. Connect the dots.  One year she's doing her "homeschooling the real child" talk and telling people to get evals, then she comes out with her video saying she should have thrown in the towel, and now she's out entirely.  Ever wonder why there's decreasing traffic on the boards?   ;)  The gig is up.  WTM does NOT fit all kids.

 

SWB has been very gracious to me and I've found WTM useful over the years and inspiring.  But to take WTM's claims at face value when it says it works for all people and that learning can be reduced to this inane sequential list of tasks and steps that all people must go through and a quantity of material that well-educated people know, that's HOGWASH and crap.  I know plenty of PhD's who disagree with her.  And lots of homeschoolers do.

 

Use WTM for inspiration, yes, but don't let it use you!

 

Over the years I've found it very wise to look at life-long learners who are themselves clearly ADHD or what have you.  What I found was they don't learn AT ALL like WTM says.  They're MUCH more like what Freed's book described and Dyslexic Advantage.  These kids are connected learners, who are always thinking about how things CONNECT.  It's almost like you should be buying WEM, not WTM.  Seriously!  

 

FREE yourself from what isn't working.  There are SO many GREAT ways to work together.  There's NO NEED to continue in things that aren't working.

 

You know what I've always done with my dd is have periodic checks (mid-semester, end of semester, etc.) and go through everything, asking for her feedback.  You can fault that, but I need the help, lol.  You might find, with some kind of feedback process like that, that your ds knows exactly where the problem points are.  And when you can identify the problems, you can fix them!  

 

Blow your mind.  Ask him what his ideal school day would be.   :)

[PeterPan]

I'm reading what you're saying about his IQ testing.  I understand your frustration, but don't make the neuropsych process out to be more than it is, lol.  Our psych with ds FARMED OUT the entire 2nd day!  Oh yeah babes, totally had some other chick do it.  Yes you'd get a few more breakdowns.  You already know his processing speed is low.  It would just be curiousity asking what it is.  That might not be worth another $2K, ouch.  

 

You know what would actually help you is maybe the inexpensive learning styles inventories you can do online...  HSBC sometimes gets the $50 one for $5!  That would be helpful to you.  

 

That's very important that you know there was no discrepancy between verbal and performance.  It means you don't have to keep looking for other problems like APD.  

 

I'm not sure there ever is a win in the IQ/expectation debate.  So you go you know, THIS is what hard-working 50th percentile IQ looks like, kwim?  Not so much saying the numbers are wrong as saying this is just what good character, good training, good diligence, plus 50th percentile looks like.  There are actually some charts on this.  I think they were maybe in that book Different Minds that Kbutton suggested?  Wow THAT was a thick bunch of book, lol!  Basic idea of whatever it was I saw was that social perception does *not* improve the way you think it does with IQ.  A moderately bright IQ attracts glam from the people around, but as it goes up so does the weird factor, till you get more social isolation and whatnot.  

 

So ACCEPT the numbers and move on.  That's what bright, diligent, hard working, basketball playing 50th percentile looks like.  If it makes you feel better, add 10-20 points and say that's how much it would have gone up if you had had him tested younger and done a full WISC with a GAI (adjusted for his weaknesses).  Does that make you feel better?  Does adding 10-20 make it fit more closely how you think of him and how his teachers think of him?

 

Are there any *consequences* to those numbers?  Is it *important* to get them more accurate?  For me, you can snore and say I'm oblivious, but for me the numbers helped me be REALISTIC about my child.  Sure, add 10 if that makes you feel better.  But at say 110, your expectations are still hard work plus the achievements that come with hard work.  It's not the same as saying he's 150 and ought to be performing totally differently and that you need to stress.

 

You'll have people who got totally different numbers the next time.  When you retest in 4 years, yes get the full IQ.  But for now, you could accept.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Maeflowers, you crack me up.  I do the same thing with posts.  That's why I have two windows open right now, lol.  And yeah, it cracks me up when my friend says how LINEAR I am, even though in theory I'm probably very VSL.  I have no clue.  Actually, our psych used the phrase "bright and tight" and that cracked me up.  Bright and tight?  Yeah...

 

Yes, videos because he's VSL!!  He's a visual learner!!!  Read up on VSL.  :)

 

Uh yeah, typing was horrible here.  We worked and worked and worked and worked...  And finally in 7th (? I forget due to post-typing stress disorder), we got a turn around.  I switched her to Dvorak, which is an alternate keyboard layout with less midline crossing and movement, and I gave her an email account and locked down to Dvorak.  So basically, she got what she wanted (access) but could only use what I wanted (Dvorak).  Since the keyboard was QWERTY, she could no longer hunt/peck!  I gave her Mavis Beacon and paid her $1/wpm for any month where she increased by at least 5 wpm.  She got functional real fast!  :D

 

Maybe when you have that conversation about what *he* would change you also discuss priorities? I don't think it's realistic to work on everything at once.  Pick things to focus on and put some things on a "next semester" list.

[PeterPan]

Board Dudes 17" x 23" Plastic Frame Magnetic Dry Erase Board with Marker and Magnet (50030BDUA-4)

 

You didn't ask, but this is the whiteboard I love.   :001_wub:   I stock up in the fall when Target has them for back to school.  I bought three more this year, or was it 4?  Crazy love.  It's the size that makes it work, because they're just big enough to do big math on, even with two people side by side, but small enough to fit on the table in front of you.  And magnetic, so you can make manipulatives or cards to move.  Like take your grammar and make labels with a bit of magnet tape on the back, then write the sentence on the board and label without him having to write anything...  

 

I also really like the Board Dudes dry erase markers.  They're thick and last well and don't smell.  The Quarto ones from Walmart are cheaper, don't smell, and also work even if they're not as beautiful.  Take your pick.  Beautiful markers are so motivating.  :)

[MaeFlowers]

I can't get the quote feature to work, but what you said about his teachers telling him to guess at the first option that sounds good--that's called over-generalizing. He probably took a skill the teacher tried to to teach and "rounded up" with the facts. Failing to generalize and over-generalizing go together like peas and carrots. These kids can be getting stellar information, but they do kind of wild stuff with it. And since they are getting part of the information, they look like their learning is unreliable rather than that they are lost (and they are actually more lost than unreliable).

I think this is what he is doing. I don't think the teacher actually told him to pick the first answer that sounds good. I am betting he wasn't even listening to the teacher. He was probably off in his own little world and this is what he took from what part he did hear.

Honestly, a lot of what you're saying screams spectrum to me, but I know you have ruled it out. However, I would keep an open mind about it--we were in the position of having noticed differences in our PDD-NOS son since birth, but the early autism screenings weren't really indicating a problem. Sometimes those surveys need to be accompanied by a healthy dose of "what exactly is a repetitive behavior?" We thought our son didn't fit the profile because of things we initially misunderstood about the questions, basically because we knew kids on the spectrum that had more classic presentations. Some of these kids have very subtle presentations of spectrum symptoms. At any rate, several of the skills you are saying that your son is struggling with are things our ASD kiddo has trouble with, so you might expand your reading materials to include stuff that covers 2e kids with ASD. One book that might give some useful information is called School Success for Kids with Autism Spectrum Disorders. It drills down to some of these underlying skills and talks about how to gird up those areas. And again, the Lovecky book is excellent.

Okay. Maybe I should say this. The psychologist suspected autism based on behavior. His physician when he was small suspected autism because of his speech delay. (He knew 10-20 words when he turned 2 and tend to lose words). She decided based on other questions that he was fine. The psychologist said that he was only 2 points below the cut-off for autism and that if she had the best autism test (their practice could not afford it), that he might  be on the scale. I keep seeing this come up. Are these traits specific to autism or do they overlap with ADHD?

 

[MaeFlowers]

I have read everyone's replies and I appreciate all the feedback. Right now, I am seriously overwhelmed and having trouble getting my brain wrapped around everything. I can't seem to see the forest for the trees. And it's making me ineffective. I think I need to print this all out and sit down for a great brainstorming session with mindmaps and notes and whatnot. Let it all percolate. Read some of the books you suggested. Let it percolate some more.

 

Y'all probably won't believe me but I graduated from one of the top universities in the country, as a honors student, with a degree in...get this...psychology. Child psychology and development was not my specialty (obviously) and I never finished grad school but I feel like I should be able to figure all this out. I guess it is kind of like the mechanic with the car on blocks in his front yard. I'm too close to it. It's MY ds.

 

 

[kbutton]

The overlap with ADHD and ASD falls into the million dollar question area--as in, if you can answer that, you'd be a millionaire! It's possible to downplay things that could be one or the other and give too much credence to the idea that it's one thing and not the other. That's why it can be a hard diagnosis. If he's that "close," I think broadening your reading material to include ASD literature might help. 

 

I would read up more on what higher IQ kids on the spectrum act like even though your son is testing average and technically shy of spectrum. My son's PDD-NOS diagnosis was at least partly based on quirky things we noticed, not just the tests. Just see what you can glean. You don't need all the answers, but I think if you can come up with some core things to work on (such as inferencing, under- and over-generalizing, etc. if that's what's really going on) and really watch closely to see if those things are possibly happening, then you might find some good strategies to focus your remediation. I recently obtained an IEP for my son so that we can apply to a scholarship program in our state. The school psychologist had some stereotypically inaccurate assumptions about ASD, and as a result, he was being a total roadblock (but proclaiming he was on our side). I was having a lot of trouble putting my concerns into words, but his resistance and getting confirmation that he really was being a roadblock galvanized my thinking, and I finally found words for what I was seeing. Then I found the Lovecky book (which I'd heard about but hadn't seen yet), and I turned out to be right on. It was a huge confirmation to see IN PRINT that some kids aren't linear OR big picture--they need both. They literally have to work new information from both a big picture perspective first and then with step-by-step details was a huge boost to my confidence. It made it OK that things take twice as long and explained why he can make intuitive leaps but be freaked out by them. Seeing in print that these kids need to try new skills in lots of different contexts helped me realize it's okay that he can understand wht a gerund is in one context and not know how to identify the subject of the sentence in a different context. Having to put all of that on paper helped me sort out where to focus my efforts. The problem with generalizing is subtle for my son (it looks a lot like distraction or not trying), but now that I have identified it, I can see it affecting all kinds of things that I wasn't seeing before. It was very eye-opening. Hopefully all of the ideas in this thread will yield an aha moment for you or put you in line to see the problem down the road. There are so many layers to these kids, and sometimes we have to hit a certain layer before what to do and how to do it starts to become more clear.

 

I will also put in a plug for meds. My son is doing SO MUCH BETTER on meds. Things that "should" have worked long ago but didn't are now suddenly feasible. He's so much more available for learning. I had a hard time seeing certain aspects of ADHD (partly because he has STRONG sensory processing issues), but OhElizabeth helped me see his impulsivitiy (sky high!). That's one reason we decided to give meds a go. He's so happy to be taking meds.

[PeterPan]

Maeflowers, that losing speech is called apraxia, and that's a very distinctive symptom.  And not to muddy things, but if that just shy of autism screening was a few years ago, things have changed.  With DSM5, only 60% of kids who got a PDD-NOS label will get an autism label.  The other 40% I assume are then drifting down into SCD, ADHD, etc, etc....

 

I'm just saying even if you got a full neuropsych eval, you STILL might not change his label.  I'd go back and ask the psych who did your eval WHY she didn't do an autism screening of some kind...  

 

Apraxia, childhood apraxia of speech, verbal apraxia.  Read more about it.  He may have had a mild version of it and you're seeing the effects of it in his writing, etc.  You said he had that speech eval and only one thing on his pragmatics showed up.  That's fabulous and a good sign.  This is not an authoritative thing, but when our SLP did that test and saw ds only had a couple areas low and all the rest good, to her it pretty much eliminated the question of ASD.  I didn't bug her about it, but I took it to mean that there would have been more areas showing low than what did if it were ASD.  That's why places like the Nisonger in Columbus do OT, SLP, AND psych evals and observation, not just behavioral forms, to make a diagnosis.  

 

I'm saying you can have a lot of the flags and things that raise a mom's eyebrow and STILL not get an ASD label.  His label STILL might not change, even if you were to plunk out.  But if he had unidentified CAS (childhood apraxia of speech, verbal apraxia), that's really interesting and significant.  There are patterns of behavior, word retrieval, etc. etc. that go with it such that one researcher I read put it "OF COURSE he has those symptoms."  

 

The easiest thing would be to go back and ask your current psych why/whether she screened for the ASD.  Even a ped can run the screening tool. If it really concerns you, sure take your results to a good np who specializes in ASD+ADHD and see what they find.  Our np does that service and lists it under his fees, so your situation is not uncommon.  But if the question is do you HAVE to, well... Obviously you don't want to miss anything.  I think it's really good to go back and ask the psych you've already paid what she did and why.  But I'm just telling you flat up, for functional purposes ADHD can miss as many social cues as ASD, have a 30% social delay, etc. etc.  You might not see the label change.

[kbutton]

I have read everyone's replies and I appreciate all the feedback. Right now, I am seriously overwhelmed and having trouble getting my brain wrapped around everything. I can't seem to see the forest for the trees. And it's making me ineffective. I think I need to print this all out and sit down for a great brainstorming session with mindmaps and notes and whatnot. Let it all percolate. Read some of the books you suggested. Let it percolate some more.

 

Y'all probably won't believe me but I graduated from one of the top universities in the country, as a honors student, with a degree in...get this...psychology. Child psychology and development was not my specialty (obviously) and I never finished grad school but I feel like I should be able to figure all this out. I guess it is kind of like the mechanic with the car on blocks in his front yard. I'm too close to it. It's MY ds.

 

Lol! My DH works in the medical field, and outside of helping with medical lingo/test results for others or black and white stuff like, "yes, you have an ear infection," he just won't do medical stuff with family. It's different with loved ones.

 

We've all heard things over and over before being able to assimilate. Par for the course on this section of the board! Truly. 

[PeterPan]

I have read everyone's replies and I appreciate all the feedback. Right now, I am seriously overwhelmed and having trouble getting my brain wrapped around everything. I can't seem to see the forest for the trees. And it's making me ineffective. I think I need to print this all out and sit down for a great brainstorming session with mindmaps and notes and whatnot. Let it all percolate. Read some of the books you suggested. Let it percolate some more.

 

Y'all probably won't believe me but I graduated from one of the top universities in the country, as a honors student, with a degree in...get this...psychology. Child psychology and development was not my specialty (obviously) and I never finished grad school but I feel like I should be able to figure all this out. I guess it is kind of like the mechanic with the car on blocks in his front yard. I'm too close to it. It's MY ds.

:grouphug:     That's normal!  And you know, I think the worst thing is KNOWING all those potential scenarios and labels and then wanting them but not wanting them at the same time, kwim?   :thumbdown:  And we've been a little more talkative with you than normal around here.  You just brought up so many good topics.   :)

 

So yes, take your time!  You know the advice someone gave me?  She said "What do you want to change?"  As in, if you get this eval, if you pursue this therapy, what are you wanting to CHANGE?  What is most pressing about your lives and work dynamic that you really need to change?  Maybe that will help you pinpoint what you need to do next.

[PeterPan]

Also, I'm no expert on this, just saying what our psych did, but he didn't harp on ANY of the things people talk about.  Obsessions, repetitive behaviors, blah blah.  Sure they're on the list.  First and foremost he was looking for social dysfunction: will he walk into a room and talk to you.  If that's socially typical, everything else doesn't matter and just gets shoved down to ADHD, end of discussion.  

[PeterPan]

It was a huge confirmation to see IN PRINT that some kids aren't linear OR big picture--they need both. They literally have to work new information from both a big picture perspective first and then with step-by-step details was a huge boost to my confidence. It made it OK that things take twice as long and explained why he can make intuitive leaps but be freaked out by them. 

 

... OhElizabeth helped me see his impulsivitiy (sky high!). That's one reason we decided to give meds a go. He's so happy to be taking meds.   :thumbup:

Kbutton, what a gem of a find!  So that finally explains what's up with me!!  I could never figure out why, according to theory (and observation) I have VSL tendencies when I *also* come across so annoyingly sequential, haha... I didn't realize you could be BOTH!  

 

Cool.  Now I have an excuse for why some things take so long to sink in...   :smilielol5: 

[Heathermomster]

Can you tell how much of a linear thinker I am? I have to respond to the posts in order or I get discombobulated.

Linear thinking is great!  I prefer the terms methodical, thorough, and precise.. :D   I don't know what kind of thinker I am.. :blink: 

 

About the handwriting...Typing has always been stressed to me due to my son's dysgraphia.  Son learned to type in 5th grade.  We tried for two years prior to that, and it just didn't work out.  DS was in a classroom at the time, and typing instruction was just one more item to add to the ever growing to-do pile.

 

I don't know of any research to support when to push typing; however, your DS is still young.  If typing isn't working out for him now, don't push.  He may not be developmentally ready.  There may be a motor issue involved.  Definitely try some speech to text alternatives.

[kbutton]

Kbutton, what a gem of a find!  So that finally explains what's up with me!!  I could never figure out why, according to theory (and observation) I have VSL tendencies when I *also* come across so annoyingly sequential, haha... I didn't realize you could be BOTH!  

 

Cool.  Now I have an excuse for why some things take so long to sink in...   :smilielol5: 

 

That Lovecky book is awesome. I have only begun to plumb the depths. 

 

I think DS 10 needs both for everything, but I think some people pull out one or the other as needed for various tasks. I know I am this way, and to some extent, I need both, but at different times. In those Cathy what's-her-name learning styles stuff, I use nearly all of the learning styles at some point, but one or two are my natural, go-to styles. The maddening part is that it makes me a jack of all trades, master of none.

[Storygirl]

I am only halfway through reading this thread (too late to continue tonight), and can I just say that the advice here is priceless! I can't believe how much good stuff you guys have to offer! I just really need to clear my schedule and dig into all of these awesome resources. I'm going to print a copy of this thread and put it with the recommendations that we got from the NP, because it is that valuable.

 

I often feel inadequate. I know both my understanding and my ability to teach my kids are inadequate, actually. I often think they would be better served if I put them in school. And then I read posts like the ones in this thread,  and I see that there is so much more knowledge that I can tap into, and I see that other moms are right there in the trenches figuring this stuff out and sharing what they've learned and helping those who are coming along behind, and feeling the same emotions that I feel....and I am just so grateful.  Thank you.

 

:001_wub:  :001_wub:  :001_wub:

 

[Storygirl]

So I read through the entire thread just now and then returned to reread the OP. Mae, I totally understand seeing that there are issues at play but not knowing exactly what they are and feeling overwhelmed by the magnitude of sorting things out. I understand the desire to just step away and enroll in school. I understand how exhausting it is to parent a child with ADHD and how discouraging it is to work so hard at teaching them but not seeing the actual learning click in. And I understand being overwhelmed by information and ideas and possibilities and needing to let things sink in.

 

So I think I really just want to add a couple of things to what has been said here already.

 

1) I agree with considering medicating the ADHD. We were resistant to do it, but it has made a huge difference in my son's ability with both schoolwork and behavior. You really can just try the meds and then change to a different one or drop them altogether if they don't work out. You can really give it a very short trial period to see if it will have a positive or negative affect.

 

2) If you decide to try enrolling in school, it may be a perfectly fine choice for him and for you. I might suggest having him evaluated by the school for an IEP before you enroll, so that he can have accommodations from day one instead of being in school for months without accommodations while they assess whether he needs them or not.

 

3) Have you heard about non-verbal learning disorder? I'm asking because I never had heard of it before reading one post about it on these boards back in the spring. I googled it to see what it was. And then the next day our NP diagnosed DS10 with NVLD. It's not on the autism spectrum, but many of the same issues are seen in both NVLD and ASD. We never felt DS was autistic, and yet he had so many quirky things that made us wonder about it anyway. I would read all about aspergers and autism, and some things would sound just like DS, but other things would just not fit. Now that he has the NVLD diagnosis, what we had been seeing all along made sense finally. I'm not saying that your post rings a bell in my mind saying your son has NVLD. I'm just saying that for a child that seems kind of spectrumy but kind of not, it might be worth it for you to do a bit of reading just to see. (My son was diagnosed with an LD in reading comprehension and is unable to understand inference or things that are not written in a straightforward, literal way.)

 

4) Not being able to memorize math facts may be the ADHD. In my DD9's case, she cannot memorize math facts and still counts on her fingers, uses math charts, etc., but in her case it is not ADHD but probably dyslexia. I'm no expert and am still learning, but I've seen others on the boards say that the brains of those with dyslexia and ADHD can be similar. I'm going to recommend that if you think he needs a different math program that you look at CLE (Christian Light Education). We went through four or five math programs before we found CLE, and I wish we had found it so much sooner. You can see samples on their website and take a placement test. It is a tight spiral program. I'm not suggesting it in place of Ronit Bird (which we haven't tried but maybe should) -- maybe you would even want to do both, because they work on different things?? But CLE is working for all four of my kids, each of whom has different strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't say that it is remediating DD9's inability to memorize her facts. We need to tackle that in a different way. But she is able to move forward in the lessons using some accommodations.

 

I will also mention that before meds, DS10 was unable to complete his math. He would look at the page and just feel overwhelmed that it was too much and too hard. On meds, he goes to the schoolroom first thing and knocks out his entire math lesson before I even get to the room. Honestly, for him it's like a magic math pill. I'm not saying that it would be the same for your son, but I've heard others say that the meds specifically help math.

 

5) A bunch of :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: .

[bluedarling]

:bigear: OP, your child sounds a LOT like my 15yo....also borderline ASD, but got the ADD dx because the pysch felt many of his ASD symptoms were due to giftedness.  Unlike his brother who did get a ASD dx, this child did eventually get his math facts (they were slow coming, but he did get them.)  He wants to be a physicist, and loves math, now, but early on it was a struggle (especially Saxon).  MUS was a good fit with the easy layout and video instruction, though CLE might have provided more challenge.  Writing was also delayed...and he wrote without punctuation of any kind until 8th/9th grade.  Actually, I first took him in for testing for a writing disability.   I don't have great advice to add, but am gleaning from your post.  I just offer a little encouragement from someone a little further down the road from you...it does get better....never easy, but better.  I have been told by multiple professionals over the years NOT to put this child in school.  He just wouldn't fit.  We tried with his brother who has better EF skills, and he didn't fit, either.  Too smart for special ed, too difficult to teach for regular education....they just didn't have an appropriate placement.  And, because he didn't finish all his work in class, it was all sent home for him to do.  My child was emotionally drained by evening, and we couldn't accomplish ANYTHING.  We finally determined it was easier to have him at home.  (I really didn't want to, but in the end it was the best decision.)  With my now 15yo, it would have been even worse, I suspect.  I wish I had the abundance of advise you've gotten to work with back then!!   EF skills is the one thing that is still an huge issue....this child starts DE next year, and still can't seem to manage his name of his paper!!  But we are making small improvements....and I remember his brother making a huge leap in maturity around 16yo!  (Fingers are crossed!)  Hope you manage some changes that will allow you to continue!

[MaeFlowers]

I am only halfway through reading this thread (too late to continue tonight), and can I just say that the advice here is priceless! I can't believe how much good stuff you guys have to offer! I just really need to clear my schedule and dig into all of these awesome resources. I'm going to print a copy of this thread and put it with the recommendations that we got from the NP, because it is that valuable.

 

I often feel inadequate. I know both my understanding and my ability to teach my kids are inadequate, actually. I often think they would be better served if I put them in school. And then I read posts like the ones in this thread,  and I see that there is so much more knowledge that I can tap into, and I see that other moms are right there in the trenches figuring this stuff out and sharing what they've learned and helping those who are coming along behind, and feeling the same emotions that I feel....and I am just so grateful.  Thank you.

 

:001_wub:  :001_wub:  :001_wub:

 

I agree 100%. Everyone here makes me feel so  much better and makes me feel like I can do this on those days (sometimes longer) when I feel so bogged down and overwhelmed. I am so grateful for the support and advice everyone has given. IRL, no one really seems to understand.

[MaeFlowers]

So I read through the entire thread just now and then returned to reread the OP. Mae, I totally understand seeing that there are issues at play but not knowing exactly what they are and feeling overwhelmed by the magnitude of sorting things out. I understand the desire to just step away and enroll in school. I understand how exhausting it is to parent a child with ADHD and how discouraging it is to work so hard at teaching them but not seeing the actual learning click in. And I understand being overwhelmed by information and ideas and possibilities and needing to let things sink in.

 

So I think I really just want to add a couple of things to what has been said here already.

 

1) I agree with considering medicating the ADHD. We were resistant to do it, but it has made a huge difference in my son's ability with both schoolwork and behavior. You really can just try the meds and then change to a different one or drop them altogether if they don't work out. You can really give it a very short trial period to see if it will have a positive or negative affect.

 

2) If you decide to try enrolling in school, it may be a perfectly fine choice for him and for you. I might suggest having him evaluated by the school for an IEP before you enroll, so that he can have accommodations from day one instead of being in school for months without accommodations while they assess whether he needs them or not.

 

3) Have you heard about non-verbal learning disorder? I'm asking because I never had heard of it before reading one post about it on these boards back in the spring. I googled it to see what it was. And then the next day our NP diagnosed DS10 with NVLD. It's not on the autism spectrum, but many of the same issues are seen in both NVLD and ASD. We never felt DS was autistic, and yet he had so many quirky things that made us wonder about it anyway. I would read all about aspergers and autism, and some things would sound just like DS, but other things would just not fit. Now that he has the NVLD diagnosis, what we had been seeing all along made sense finally. I'm not saying that your post rings a bell in my mind saying your son has NVLD. I'm just saying that for a child that seems kind of spectrumy but kind of not, it might be worth it for you to do a bit of reading just to see. (My son was diagnosed with an LD in reading comprehension and is unable to understand inference or things that are not written in a straightforward, literal way.)

 

4) Not being able to memorize math facts may be the ADHD. In my DD9's case, she cannot memorize math facts and still counts on her fingers, uses math charts, etc., but in her case it is not ADHD but probably dyslexia. I'm no expert and am still learning, but I've seen others on the boards say that the brains of those with dyslexia and ADHD can be similar. I'm going to recommend that if you think he needs a different math program that you look at CLE (Christian Light Education). We went through four or five math programs before we found CLE, and I wish we had found it so much sooner. You can see samples on their website and take a placement test. It is a tight spiral program. I'm not suggesting it in place of Ronit Bird (which we haven't tried but maybe should) -- maybe you would even want to do both, because they work on different things?? But CLE is working for all four of my kids, each of whom has different strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't say that it is remediating DD9's inability to memorize her facts. We need to tackle that in a different way. But she is able to move forward in the lessons using some accommodations.

 

I will also mention that before meds, DS10 was unable to complete his math. He would look at the page and just feel overwhelmed that it was too much and too hard. On meds, he goes to the schoolroom first thing and knocks out his entire math lesson before I even get to the room. Honestly, for him it's like a magic math pill. I'm not saying that it would be the same for your son, but I've heard others say that the meds specifically help math.

 

5) A bunch of :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: .

 

 

 

The bold above is ds. Always has been so, so literal. Even as a toddler, toys had to be put together exactly like the picture on the box. I'm curious what you are doing to work with him on this?

 

 

I am overwhelmed. It isn't simply one area to work on but so many. What do I focus on first? Or how do I work on everything at once? And how do I make time to read up on everything? Just everything that goes with it. The responses here are helping me think about how I want to step back and handle all these different issues. I am still thinking...working on a plan. I think I might post it here in a few days or so and see what everyone thinks! 

 

[MaeFlowers]

:bigear: OP, your child sounds a LOT like my 15yo....also borderline ASD, but got the ADD dx because the pysch felt many of his ASD symptoms were due to giftedness.  Unlike his brother who did get a ASD dx, this child did eventually get his math facts (they were slow coming, but he did get them.)  He wants to be a physicist, and loves math, now, but early on it was a struggle (especially Saxon).  MUS was a good fit with the easy layout and video instruction, though CLE might have provided more challenge.  Writing was also delayed...and he wrote without punctuation of any kind until 8th/9th grade.  Actually, I first took him in for testing for a writing disability.   I don't have great advice to add, but am gleaning from your post.  I just offer a little encouragement from someone a little further down the road from you...it does get better....never easy, but better.  I have been told by multiple professionals over the years NOT to put this child in school.  He just wouldn't fit.  We tried with his brother who has better EF skills, and he didn't fit, either.  Too smart for special ed, too difficult to teach for regular education....they just didn't have an appropriate placement.  And, because he didn't finish all his work in class, it was all sent home for him to do.  My child was emotionally drained by evening, and we couldn't accomplish ANYTHING.  We finally determined it was easier to have him at home.  (I really didn't want to, but in the end it was the best decision.)  With my now 15yo, it would have been even worse, I suspect.  I wish I had the abundance of advise you've gotten to work with back then!!   EF skills is the one thing that is still an huge issue....this child starts DE next year, and still can't seem to manage his name of his paper!!  But we are making small improvements....and I remember his brother making a huge leap in maturity around 16yo!  (Fingers are crossed!)  Hope you manage some changes that will allow you to continue!

 

Thank you. It helps to hear from others who are a little further down the road. I know maturity won't fix everything but I always hope that it will help some things.

 

I think I have calmed down a bit and we are going to keep ds home. I think it really is the best place for him and that ps would probably cause more difficulties. I just need to sit down and try to understand what I should realistically expect from ds and then set some goals.

[PeterPan]

The bold above is ds. Always has been so, so literal. Even as a toddler, toys had to be put together exactly like the picture on the box. I'm curious what you are doing to work with him on this?

 

 

I am overwhelmed. It isn't simply one area to work on but so many. What do I focus on first? Or how do I work on everything at once? And how do I make time to read up on everything? Just everything that goes with it. The responses here are helping me think about how I want to step back and handle all these different issues. I am still thinking...working on a plan. I think I might post it here in a few days or so and see what everyone thinks! 

 

A psych can help you answer this.  If you decide to take your results to a neuropsych (sort of moving up the ladder), then that would be a good question.  

 

In general, start with the most foundational things (motor control, etc.).  Some of the things that are concerning you are things that take time, things where small amounts of effort add up.  So it won't be one magic program done one time but more awareness and conversation and weaving it in.  

[Storygirl]

The bold above is ds. Always has been so, so literal. Even as a toddler, toys had to be put together exactly like the picture on the box. I'm curious what you are doing to work with him on this?

 

 

 

Good question. DS10 has so many needs (and my daughter needs remediation as well), plus I have two other children to educate. So there are a lot of things that he NEEDS that I haven't been able to tackle head on yet. It's part of what leads me to feel overwhelmed and inadequate. Sometimes I have to remind myself that the public school would not be meeting all of his needs, either, and possibly fewer of them than we manage to address at home.

 

Anyway, I am a huge bookworm with more than one degree in literature, so I have always done a ton of readalouds. DS10 actually caught onto phonics and reading quickly when I started teaching him, but he has never been interested in reading unless I require it. Previously I was in the camp of people who do not use a purchased reading program but just encouraged independent reading of real books and enjoying our readaloud time. But DS10 would not read a book straight through, would argue about what to read next, and would choose to read books way below his level and just look at the pictures (not a bad thing to do for fun, but it wasn't advancing his reading skills). I thought his ADHD explained all this, and I was actually surprised that he received the reading comprehension LD. It made me step back and rethink.

 

I decided I did need a systematic reading curriculum after all, and I decided on CLE Reading (third grade level -- a level below, but we do it as a group with his younger siblings, and it is actually the correct difficulty for him). I like that each story is read twice -- once silently, and the next day out loud as a class (well, we actually have a "class" of three, but you could do it one-on-one). There is a workbook as well, so I have a way to track how he is doing. Inference and figures of speech are taught gently, along with general comprehension. It's not what I would call intensive remediation, but we are slowly working on some good skills.

 

I do see Inference Jones suggested periodically on the boards, and I plan to get it to use with more than one of my children when I magically have time to add something else to our schedule (ha ha -- gonna have to make the time somehow). I'm sure there are other good things out there that I haven't uncovered yet.

 

I also carefully steer him toward things that he can understand for his free reading. Anything that has flashbacks, a lot of figures of speech or clever wordplay, etc. is incomprehensible to him. Even if he can read all the words, he just can't understand what is going on. So for now I help him pick things that have a straightforward plot and a more literal writing style. Hopefully his skills will improve over time, but with the NVLD, I just don't know. We'll keep at it.

 

ETA: What I find interesting, is that DS10 is actually very verbal and witty and able to create jokes that are fairly sophisticated. Which contributed to my missing his trouble with recognizing these very things when he reads them. He can have a cutting (sometimes mean toward his siblings) wit himself, but he doesn't understand things like sarcasm in others. His gymnastics coach once told him, "If you are going to do that, you might as well go home, " so DS went to the lobby and told his dad that he was supposed to leave. He doesn't get the subtlety of that kind of thing. That's the NVLD.

[PeterPan]

Thank you. It helps to hear from others who are a little further down the road. I know maturity won't fix everything but I always hope that it will help some things.

 

I think I have calmed down a bit and we are going to keep ds home. I think it really is the best place for him and that ps would probably cause more difficulties. I just need to sit down and try to understand what I should realistically expect from ds and then set some goals.

You can turn that a bit and ask what you can *realistically help him accomplish*...  

 

When things are hard, a lot of it is the drip, drip approach...  Little conversations, little habits, little efforts that slowly add up...