Navigating NCAA and planning high school - help, please!

[Annabel Lee]

My sons have always dreamed of playing sports in college, so I want to leave that door open for them with NCAA eligibility.  I'm currently trying to plan for my older son who will be in 9th grade next year.

I want to get busy preparing & planning for next year but I don't know where to find a list of approved or unapproved curriculum.   I've searched & read a few threads here and some of the NCAA Eligibility site.  When I look at the Homeschool section under Resources on the NCAA eligibility website, then click on what I think will give me a list of approved courses, it wants me to enter a specific school.  I'm able to enter the names of local public schools and see generic course titles, but not which books or materials they use.  How am I to determine if curriculum materials I am considering will be approved or not?  When I'm looking at various private and free online courses, or comparing math texts and possibly DVD or online supplements, etc., how am I to know which are approved?

 

In other threads, I read about homeschoolers listing the parent as the teacher with an online or other outside course as just a part of the parent-designed course.  This sounds like a PITB, forcing a lot of supplemental work for the student & oversight by the parent.  Would you need to retain the child's completed supplemental work as proof?  I also read about submitting 2 separate transcripts: one for NCAA and one for college admissions.  Can you tell me more about how to navigate this?  Does either entity ever see the other transcript, and if so, would that cause problems?

TIA. :)

[Sunshine State Sue]

If you are willing to share, what sport is your oldest ds interested in?  IMO, the NCAA probaby looks a little closer at football and basketball athletes.

 

If you want to PM me with your email address, I would be happy to send you my transcript and core course worksheets.  I used the same transcript for NCAA and colleges even though NCAA homeschool guidelines have very generic course titles.  I did not rename classes to meet their standards.

 

I encourage you to call the NCAA homeschool department and ask about approved courses.  I called them many times and it helped to put my mind at ease.

 

That said, ds took many classes at CC, and I was fairly certain that with that history plus a high ACT score, he would be waved through the NCAA.  We had no problems.

 

But, I called many times in order to understand their requirements.  At the time, they really wanted to see a high school level textbook (their preferences change annually though).  As long as there was a high school level textbook, they were happy.  If I remember correctly, they were familiar with some of the more common homeschool curriculum providers:  BJU, Abeka, but I wasn't really interested in them.

 

We used Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings (not a textbook) for 9th grade English.  We used Discovering Geometry by Michael Serra.  We used Derek Owens (no textbook) for Physics.  We used History at our House (no textbook).  We used Laurel Tree Tutorials for 10th grade English.  We used Landry Academy for a Sports Medicine class.   I did not hide the fact that there were was an outside teacher.  I kept syllabi and provided them with the core course worksheets.  I called in 8th grade and had very long discussions about the history class with no textbook.  I even sent samples of syllabus, class notes, test, test key, essay in order to get some reassurance that it would be acceptable.  Most of these had terrific syllabi that, imo, the NCAA likes to see.  I am not so creative, so I copied down Geometry chapter names for that one.

 

HTH!

[clementine]

We are currently going through the process now with my senior.  All we have left is to submit a final transcript in May/June, so we have everything else accepted & approved.  

 

Some of our curriculum was Lightning Literature, Apologia sciences, Bob Jones math, various history (Glencoe, American Vision, Macgruders).  Courses were also taken at our local college for dual credit.  

 

For outsourced classes, I listed myself as the teacher and the class teacher as the tutor because ultimately, as homeschoolers, we give the grades (except for the college courses).  I would only do one transcript.  Also, if you google 'NCAA American History' or 'NCAA Spanish III', you can sometimes get specific school information - class descriptions and possibly curriculum.  

 

You are starting early, so you should feel good that you're on the ball!  

[Annabel Lee]

Thank you for the reassurance & offer, Sue.  That is very generous!  I'll PM you my email shortly.

My oldest son plays football.  He likes both (ETA: football and baseball) but currently wants to play football next summer for high school and then continue on into college.  My youngest (only 2 yrs. younger, 7th gr. next year) plays baseball.  Hopefully I'll learn enough the first time through that it won't be so hard again later.

I'm really hoping the new changes for 2016 & later don't disqualify the non-mainstream type materials you listed, because those are the types of things I'm interested in doing, too.  Do you know if the "2016 & later" refers to the high school start date or graduation date?  Don't search for it if you don't know off the top of your head; I can do that.

Thanks again!

[clementine]

The changes are for the graduating class of 2016, I believe.  So, those currently in 8th grade or below will have those new standards.

[Annabel Lee]

We are currently going through the process now with my senior.  All we have left is to submit a final transcript in May/June, so we have everything else accepted & approved.  

 

Some of our curriculum was Lightning Literature, Apologia sciences, Bob Jones math, various history (Glencoe, American Vision, Macgruders).  Courses were also taken at our local college for dual credit.  

 

For outsourced classes, I listed myself as the teacher and the class teacher as the tutor because ultimately, as homeschoolers, we give the grades (except for the college courses).  I would only do one transcript.  Also, if you google 'NCAA American History' or 'NCAA Spanish III', you can sometimes get specific school information - class descriptions and possibly curriculum.  

 

You are starting early, so you should feel good that you're on the ball!  

 

Yay!  That's good news for me as well!

 

As for "early" and "on the ball"... I wish I could internalize that; it feels so urgent!  I will have to be operating under these guidelines in August of next year, so I only have until then to learn how, apply that knowledge to my curriculum choices, get everything ordered (preferably by May-June at the latest), planned, and prepared.

[clementine]

Just know that I had no idea that my athlete had to 'qualify' with the NCAA until last spring.  Talk about panic!!  I knew we had homeschooled well, but I wouldn't have lost sleep about the whole process had I known much sooner.  Sue was a big help to me too, thank goodness!!!  

[ZooRho]

I did the NCAA for my swimmer boy.  I do know the rules are changing so pay attention to that.  I wouldn't pay anything until his junior year though.

we used Sonlight curriculum, Apologia for Science, Abeka for LA and a few things of Thinkwell.  

I do think you need to be the grading teacher unless it is a Community College class, that makes it easier. 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Oh good grief. There are more changes? Now what do they want to see?

[clementine]

Oh good grief. There are more changes? Now what do they want to see?

Lol! I think it's just a raised GPA, higher SAT/ACT composites & 10 of the Core Courses need to be taken before senior year. Not sure if there is more than that off the top of my head. So, not too bad!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Lol! I think it's just a raised GPA, higher SAT/ACT composites & 10 of the Core Courses need to be taken before senior year. Not sure if there is more than that off the top of my head. So, not too bad!

Ok I think I'd known about those. It doesn't look like this will be an issue for us. And I've pretty much decided that I had to make best education choices first and let the NCAA chips fall where they will.

[Annabel Lee]

I have some more questions on this topic so I'm posting it in this thread to keep the information together.

 

First, thank you Sue, for so generously sharing advice, help, and more.

 

I've called NCAA a couple times now, trying to get a feel for how to plan for high school.  They do not seem to have any sort of "approved" or "disapproved" list of curriculum, resources, materials, or vendors at all, except that they won't approve Rosetta Stone and they won't approve a religious studies course focused on a single religion.  Their examples of religious course that would be approved were World Religions or Comparative Religious Studies (done neutrally or with secular texts).  They were not able to tell me whether anything from a list of curriculum I had prepared would or would not be approved.  She said one homeschooler could be using a course differently from the next person, so they review things on an individual basis.  She also kept repeating that as long as I do these 3 things it should be OK: fill out the Core Course Worksheets thoroughly, use high school level texts, and make sure those texts are "college prep".

Now I have more questions.  What about texts or materials that cross multiple grade-levels, not just "high school"?  It seems the safest thing would be to use things that are clearly marked only for high school.  But, that eliminates a number of other resources, and I don't want to stuff my sons or my homeschooling into a box.  Is there a way to walk this fine line and be approved?  How do I determine if something is "college prep", and by whose standards?  What bar do I use to measure that?

 

Do you know if the following would be NCAA approved (or denied)?
-Teaching Textbooks, VideoText (or any others where instruction comes primarily from the video lecture)
-Usage of free online college level courses (opencourseware, Coursera, etc.) for high school credit only (possibly a CLEP test, but maybe not)

-Paid online courses such as WTM Academy, Landry Academy, The Potter's School, Derek Owens, Math classes with Jann in TX, Lukeion, Memoria Press, IEW, Center for Lit, etc.
-MFW, HOD, SL, WP, & others similar
-TOG; I wonder about approval because their publications are multi-level and not just for high school
-MOH; I think it states it is for 5th - 8th grade but lists add-ons to make it appropriate for high school (I haven't looked closely, but wonder if the "5th - 8th" might garner disapproval, esp. if they don't read any further after seeing that
-A 4-year world history rotation, ancient times through modern times, instead of the traditional U.S. high school social studies line-up, assuming I cover all my state requires as well (U.S. History, Econ., Gov., state studies...)

-Courses taken outside the home but not at a local p.s. or college; paid group science classes that meet 2x/wk. or so, or private foreign language or music lessons, etc.
-And finally, Bible; inductive study, New Testament studies, etc.  If they don't accept it, what do I do with it?  Not give credit?  Not list it on the transcript?  That seems silly.

 

 

[Lolly]

I can only tell you what we did, and that was after the first wave of changes, but before the second. I did chose texts and classes based on what would be easily and unquestionably accepted. I went with strictly high school level texts or higher. If we used something questionable, I simply did not include it. TT was accepted. I would not attempt to put less than high school item like MOH on the list. If I used outside the house resources, I would list the textbook used and myself as the instructor. (I am the final instructor afterall. I handle all the final grades.) Too many people have gotten into difficulties listing outside class sources. I wouldn't chance it. To determine if it is college prep, just make sure you use high school level texts that are not meant to be remedial. 

 

I think I will send you a pm...

[Sunshine State Sue]

They do not seem to have any sort of "approved" or "disapproved" list of curriculum, resources, materials, or vendors at all

 

She also kept repeating that as long as I do these 3 things it should be OK: fill out the Core Course Worksheets thoroughly, use high school level texts, and make sure those texts are "college prep".

Right.  I was never able to get a list out of them, although they told me that they were familiar with the more common HS materials:  BJU, Abeka, etc.

 

HIgh school level texts are important to them, but not 100% necessary as we had at least one course approved without a text.

 

We used LLfLOTR which is for junior high and high school.  You probably have my CCW.  It was accepted.  With multi-level curriculum, perhaps being more specific in your "assessment" section would be helpful.  Assessment done via discussion only could be regarded as not quite rigorous enough as assessment via eight 500 word essays, 8 chapter tests, 1 final exam, etc or a syllabus that shows this kind assignments/assessments.

 

We used History at our House for 9th grade history and it was a class for 7th-9th grade.  It was accepted.  The syllabus shows clearly what is covered and how many tests there were.  The only assessements were homework and tests.  There was no textbook for this course.

 

We used Derek Owens for 9th grade Physics and it was accepted.  Instruction comes primarily from video here.  He does not use a textbook, but I wrote that the course is based on Giancoli's Physics text.  He has credentials out the wazoo.  With 20/20 hindsight, I might have included outside teachers credentials and websites.

 

We used (semester long) Landry Academy for Exercise Physiology and Sports Medicine.  Ds had 4.5yrs of science, so this one was not listed on his accepted courses.

 

I would think Potter's School would be approved.  Ds took Java through them.  But, it is not a core course, so we never submitted CCW for it.  I regard there HS level courses as college prep.  I would expect all the paid online schools you mention to be fine.

 

I don't know about Teaching Textbooks and VideoText.  I have a degree in math and a unfavorable impressesion of them.

 

As to courses outside the home:  What are the qualifications of the teacher?  How rigorous is the course?  How serious are the students?  These make me more nervous because of the quality of our local co-ops.  That's not to say that you may not have terrific options.

 

Coursera and its like make me nervous because my experience with them has been short term and only half way involved.

 

I would think that religious studies would not be part of the core courses.  I would think that ancient, medieval, early modern, and modern history would be fine with or without state and American history.

 

My transcript included all his HS courses whether or not they were included in the NCAA's core courses.  I did not create a separate transcript solely for the NCAA.

 

HTH!

  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have some more questions on this topic so I'm posting it in this thread to keep the information together.

 

First, thank you Sue, for so generously sharing advice, help, and more.

 

I've called NCAA a couple times now, trying to get a feel for how to plan for high school.  They do not seem to have any sort of "approved" or "disapproved" list of curriculum, resources, materials, or vendors at all, except that they won't approve Rosetta Stone and they won't approve a religious studies course focused on a single religion.  Their examples of religious course that would be approved were World Religions or Comparative Religious Studies (done neutrally or with secular texts).  They were not able to tell me whether anything from a list of curriculum I had prepared would or would not be approved.  She said one homeschooler could be using a course differently from the next person, so they review things on an individual basis.  She also kept repeating that as long as I do these 3 things it should be OK: fill out the Core Course Worksheets thoroughly, use high school level texts, and make sure those texts are "college prep".

 

Now I have more questions.  What about texts or materials that cross multiple grade-levels, not just "high school"?  It seems the safest thing would be to use things that are clearly marked only for high school.  But, that eliminates a number of other resources, and I don't want to stuff my sons or my homeschooling into a box.  Is there a way to walk this fine line and be approved?  How do I determine if something is "college prep", and by whose standards?  What bar do I use to measure that?

 

Do you know if the following would be NCAA approved (or denied)?

-Teaching Textbooks, VideoText (or any others where instruction comes primarily from the video lecture)

-Usage of free online college level courses (opencourseware, Coursera, etc.) for high school credit only (possibly a CLEP test, but maybe not)

-Paid online courses such as WTM Academy, Landry Academy, The Potter's School, Derek Owens, Math classes with Jann in TX, Lukeion, Memoria Press, IEW, Center for Lit, etc.

-MFW, HOD, SL, WP, & others similar

-TOG; I wonder about approval because their publications are multi-level and not just for high school

-MOH; I think it states it is for 5th - 8th grade but lists add-ons to make it appropriate for high school (I haven't looked closely, but wonder if the "5th - 8th" might garner disapproval, esp. if they don't read any further after seeing that

-A 4-year world history rotation, ancient times through modern times, instead of the traditional U.S. high school social studies line-up, assuming I cover all my state requires as well (U.S. History, Econ., Gov., state studies...)

-Courses taken outside the home but not at a local p.s. or college; paid group science classes that meet 2x/wk. or so, or private foreign language or music lessons, etc.

-And finally, Bible; inductive study, New Testament studies, etc.  If they don't accept it, what do I do with it?  Not give credit?  Not list it on the transcript?  That seems silly.

 

 

 

I have not hit the point of needing to fill out worksheets and actually request approval.  I have been following the NCAA developments affecting homeschoolers, especially with online classes for the last couple of years.

 

With regard to curriculum like Sonlight, TOG, MOH, MFW, etc, I would tend to fill out the worksheets with minimal reference to the umbrella curriculum.  I've used Sonlight and to a small extent TOG.  But I know that how I use them is radically different from how other people use them.  [For that matter, there can be some pretty significant differences in how people use even something like Saxon or a biology textbook.]  I would probably list the actual works read, most of which are clearly on the high school level (or beyond).  When you get to the parts of the worksheet about assessments, you can say something like, "individual assignments and assessments based on the high school level track of a classical homeschool outline.

 

On the topic of what to do with religion classes, you have to remember that NCAA is only interested in assessing 16 core classes.  A comparative religion course is a common social studies class.  A religion class focused on one religion is not.  That doesn't mean you ought not do it if it's important to you.  It just means that it falls outside the 16 core classes NCAA wants to see.  But so does PE, music and art (other than maybe one fine arts credit), drivers ed, etc.  I think I have my kids set up for 24-30 credits, depending on the exact combination of courses and if they take stuff over the summer.  That is plenty of room for courses that are outside the scrutiny of NCAA.

 

ETA:  I agree with Sue that I would make one transcript, with worksheets for the specific courses being reviewed.  There was one document I saw where NCAA wanted to just see course titles like English 9, English 10, etc.  I might refer to classes that way on the worksheets, but I don't think I will restrict myself to that on the transcript.

[Corraleno]

 

-And finally, Bible; inductive study, New Testament studies, etc.  If they don't accept it, what do I do with it?  Not give credit?  Not list it on the transcript?  That seems silly.

 

 

 

You can certainly give credit — the issue of NCAA "approval" only relates to whether it can count as one of the required "core" classes. You can put anything else you want on the transcript, as long as the required "core" courses are on there. Those are the only ones NCAA cares about, and the only ones you have to submit worksheets for.

 

Regarding the paid online classes, it's best to list yourself as the teacher of record, and the online teacher as a tutor or other resource. They have gotten quite picky about online classes, due to fraud where students were given credit for classes that they did not take.

[Sunshine State Sue]

ETA:  I agree with Sue that I would make one transcript, with worksheets for the specific courses being reviewed.  There was one document I saw where NCAA wanted to just see course titles like English 9, English 10, etc.  I might refer to classes that way on the worksheets, but I don't think I will restrict myself to that on the transcript.

I did not restrict myself to the NCAA course titles like English 9, English 10, etc.

[ZooRho]

I did Use Sonlight. I'd have to look back and see exactly how I did word it But I do think I listed it as Sonlight Core 100, and also put the Instructor's Guide as part of the materials.   I did list the books, honestly I didn't list them all, I listed main ones. As other's have said they are looking for the main part, did you do a high school level quality course.  

We did do a coop class, I didn't list where the class took place just that this was the course, the text book, and that I was the teacher giving the grade.   Except for the CC classes it wouldn't be worth the hoop jumping you would have to do for it. 

We also used Thinkwell for precal and it was accepted.  

I did list over the number of classes that they wanted, I didn't want to have to go back and add in more.  I think I did 18 or so. 

I do think I made 2 transcripts I can't remember now.  

[Guest rachelmdavis]

Thank you all for sharing your experiences.  My oldest son is currently a sophomore and is hoping to play baseball in college.  I am still learning about the NCAA requirements and gathering the info needed to complete the core course worksheets.  Have any of you submitted courses that were not approved?  If so, did they indicate why they weren't?  So far, I think the classes my son has taken should be fine, but it makes me nervous to think we could get to the end of his junior year and find out some of his courses aren't approved by the NCAA.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Sunshine State Sue]

Have any of you submitted courses that were not approved?  If so, did they indicate why they weren't? 

 

I haven't but Blue Hen had to provide more information for 2 her her courses.  She wrote about it in this thread.

 

HTH!

[JanetC]

diycollegerankings is another good source for athletes and colleges

 

http://diycollegerankings.com/category/athletics/

[Jlq4]

I have posted before and have a couple more questions. Does anyone know if the NCAA accepts WTM history texts? My son has read primarily primary sources but we do refer to textbooks and we have used WTM Ancient History. I plan to list his social studies/history as Ancient History I & Ancient History II; in addition, his literature courses will be listed as Ancient Greek Literature , Ancient Roman Literature, Medieval Literature, and Modern Literature. Do you think these titles will be accepted by them?

 

I was told that he should not have more than 12 college credits during his HS years as that will be seen as a negative by the colleges and will ruin his eligibility, is this true?

 

Thanks,

Joy

[Sunshine State Sue]

Does anyone know if the NCAA accepts WTM history texts?

When I talked with the NCAA several years ago, they only wanted to see that the texts used were at least high school level.  I think TWTM history text is above high school level myself.  I recommend calling the NCAA homeschool dept and chatting with them.

 

I plan to list his social studies/history as Ancient History I & Ancient History II; in addition, his literature courses will be listed as Ancient Greek Literature , Ancient Roman Literature, Medieval Literature, and Modern Literature. Do you think these titles will be accepted by them?

If I remember correctly, they only want to see very generic names like English 1, American History, etc.  FWIW, I didn't bother using generic names because ds took a variety of classes at CC, PS, and online that didn't fall into their narrow naming conventions.  I had no problems with those names.

 

I was told that he should not have more than 12 college credits during his HS years as that will be seen as a negative by the colleges and will ruin his eligibility, is this true?

Ds had 69 CC credits when he graduated high school.  If anything, it demonstrated his academic ability to the schools and coaches and NCAA.  I have read that coaches like bright athletes because they can be given academic scholarships and thus their athletic scholarships can be spread further.

 

Makes me curious as to who told you the limit of 12...

 

HTH!

[Guest Leslie in DR]

My dd is wanting to walk on to a sport at her D1 university (never having participated in it, mind you - but the coaches are enthusiastic), and I am lost in the NCAA Eligibility forms. The NCAA has been very helpful, but I am fearful about how I present some of our classes. Does anyone have experience with TPS and NCAA Eligibility. My phone call to the NCAA made me nervous that they might not accept TPS classes at all, which we probably need to get the 16.

I feel like we might lose the classes if I start the nontraditional course evaluation... 

Ironically, my homeschool transcript, her SAT's and APs were fine to be accepted to college on academic merit, and now I have to jump through incredible hoops so she can participate in a sport for fun!

Thank you!

Leslie

[klmama]

Look at the thread Sue in St Pete linked.  In there Blue Hen mentions using TPS for a class and it being approved. 

[Corraleno]

When you fill out the Core Course Worksheet, you need to list yourself as the Teacher of Record, and the TPS instructor as a secondary teacher. Ultimately, you are assigning the grade and giving the credit, so you are the teacher of record.

[Twinzen]

 If they don’’t approve these,  he would not meet all of the requirements.  Everything else, I don’t think it will come into question. I plan to use Saxon or Foersters for Algebra,  BJU/Dive for Science,  BJU for Literature.

 

Here are the 2 course descriptions that I am unsure if will be considered High School level.   I’d love opinions! I am open using something else, we’ve loved using HOD!  I’ve been looking at Veritas Press Omnibus 1, primary and secondary & it all looks so rigorous.

 

These are two courses I am questioning:

 

World Geography- click to see books.  Website says High School guide, but for  ages 13-15

This World Geography course provides students with a chronological overview of geography based upon the history of exploration, discovery, and mapmaking, starting with ancient cultures and ending with the exploration of the polar regions. As part of this course, students examine archaeological reconstructions and maps of places from the past; study the routes and discoveries of famous explorers; become familiar with various people, places, environments, and cultures; learn about methods and tools geographers use in research; and locate ancient, archaeological, architectural, natural, and technological wonders. Students also create a map of the world from memory to gain geographic knowledge as they retell the history of mapmaking, starting with the cartography of Greece and ending with the mapping of Antarctica. Students earn one full credit in World Geography upon completion of this course. 

 

 

World Religion & Cultures Course Description: - 

This World Religion & Culture’s course provides students with an overview of 8 of the world’s major religions, including Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, Shinto, Islam, and Christianity. Students learn about the important beliefs, practices, and rituals in each religion and become acquainted with the basic answers each religion gives to life’s fundamental questions. As students compare the religions of the world and wrestle with the question, “But Don’t All Religions Lead to God?†they learn to engage people of other faiths, while better understanding their own Christian faith. An understanding of the ways in which values, traditions, and religious beliefs are reflected in various cultures, helps students gain a better understanding of their own culture. Students earn 1â„2 credit in World Religion & Cultures upon completion of this course.