Help? What is the job of "e" in these words?

[Doodlebug]

money

 

honey

 

I'm trying to distinguish them from words like army and candy.  

 

Does it have something to do with the open vs closed first syllables?

 

Thanks!

 

Stella

 

 

[boscopup]

They're just using a different phonogram - 'ey' vs 'y'.

[maize]

I don't know rules but it seems to me that similar words without an e have a long "o" sound--pony, cony, bony, fogy, Sony, phony (though I think British spelling is phoney)...

(x words seem to be an exception: foxy, boxy). Don't know how universal that is. 

[Chanley]

I am going to take a stab at this...

 

In one syllable words that end in y, the y makes a long /i/ sound. So you have to use an ey at the end of those words to get the /ee/ sound. 

 

 

Two syllable words that end in y make the /ee/ sound naturally. 

 

Edited to add, I cannot count this morning. Holy cow!!! Hehe! Good thing humility is a familiar flavor for me. 

 

[Tanaqui]

I am going to take a stab at this...

 

In one syllable words that end in y, the y makes a long /i/ sound. So you have to use an ey at the end of those words to get the /ee/ sound. 

 

 

Two syllable words that end in y make the /ee/ sound naturally. 

 

Money and honey (and coney, which used to rhyme but now doesn't) are all two syllable words already.

 

[maize]

Money and honey (and coney, which used to rhyme but now doesn't) are all two syllable words already.

 

That is interesting that coney used to rhyme; cony is also a common spelling, which would match up with other long "o" words above. 

[Doodlebug]

Okay, so I just filled my coffee cup again and realized my initial attempt at syllable division was incorrect... Big surprise.  ;) The words are properly divided as mon/ey, hon/ey.  So, army, candy, money, and honey all begin with closed syllables.  That rules that out.  

 

And that led me to look at the suffix instead. 

 

They're just using a different phonogram - 'ey' vs 'y'.

 

I think this is it... I'm just at a loss for how to explain when we use one vs the other.  Is there a rule for when to apply an -ey and opposed to a -y?

 

I don't know rules but it seems to me that similar words without an e have a long "o" sound--pony, cony, bony, fogy, Sony, phony (though I think British spelling is phoney)...

(x words seem to be an exception: foxy, boxy). Don't know how universal that is. 

 

 

That makes sense!  But DS will likely turn to me and say, "So we add an e to make the first vowel SHORT?"  

 

I may stick with the silly sentence we made up... it takes mo-ney to buy ho-ney.  

 

And thanks, Chanley for taking a stab at it!

 

Stella 

[Tanaqui]

That is interesting that coney used to rhyme; cony is also a common spelling, which would match up with other long "o" words above.

 

Oh, yes. The entry at the online etymological dictionary is pretty interesting.

 

 

[maize]

Oh, yes. The entry at the online etymological dictionary is pretty interesting.

 

 

That is interesting! I find etymology fascinating, English words have such divers backgrounds and history.

[Ellie]

money

 

honey

 

I'm trying to distinguish them from words like army and candy.  

 

Does it have something to do with the open vs closed first syllables?

 

Thanks!

 

Stella

 

Don't make this more complicated than it is. :-)

 

There is no real job. It is just a different ending. Possibly it goes back to root words or something, but honestly, there is no "rule" or protocol.

[Laura Corin]

It's just different derivations: 'Money' comes from 'Juno Moneta', at whose temple the mint was located.  'Pony' is from 'Powny' which is Scots.  Or so the internet tells me.

 

L

[Doodlebug]

Don't make this more complicated than it is. :-)

 

There is no real job. It is just a different ending. Possibly it goes back to root words or something, but honestly, there is no "rule" or protocol.

 

Well, a rule would make it a lot less complicated in my world, LOL!  ;)

 

Thanks for spelling it out for me.  (Pun intended).  :)

 

Stella

[sweetpea3829]

Ok...let me take a stab.

 

I believe this has to do with syllable division rules.  And probably something to do with how y as a suffix likes to take a consonant with it. 

 

So honey...if spelled hony, it would divide like this: ho * ny.  That would make the o long.  The e in honey makes the second syllable a vowel team syllable, and causes us to divide it like this hon * ey.  (BTW, hony would divide ho*ny because of syllable division rule number 3 which states a single consonant between two vowels USUALLY goes with the second syllable...this DOESN'T apply to hon*ey because the second syllable is actually a vowel team).  

 

So why doesn't boxy, foxy and loxy follow this rule?  Because x makes TWO sounds and effectively acts like two consonants.  vowel suffixes don't like to steal x for that reason.  

 

So...the job of e in words like honey and money would be to make a vowel team syllable at the end of a word that requires the first vowel to be short.  

 

That's my guess!

 

Where's Merry?  She's good at this kind of stuff!  

 

 

[sweetpea3829]

Here's the thing about the English language and spelling.  Every single rule has rule breakers, lol!  

 

I do like rule-based spelling and find that it helps a lot.  But not when I come across words that don't fit.  

[Ellie]

Here's the thing about the English language and spelling.  Every single rule has rule breakers, lol!  

 

I do like rule-based spelling and find that it helps a lot.  But not when I come across words that don't fit.  

 

And that's why Spalding is so great: a "rule" explains an exception, not the ordinary or common use of a phonogram. Some words end with -y and some end with -ey, and it is the way it is. :-) Spalding doesn't give long explanations if it isn't really necessary, and doesn't make a rule unless it is necessary. Spalding would just teach those words and move on without making a big deal out of it.

[RootAnn]

And that's why Spalding is so great: a "rule" explains an exception, not the ordinary or common use of a phonogram. Some words end with -y and some end with -ey, and it is the way it is. :-) Spalding doesn't give long explanations if it isn't really necessary, and doesn't make a rule unless it is necessary. Spalding would just teach those words and move on without making a big deal out of it.

 

Ditto. There just aren't rules for a lot of things in terms of spelling - you just have to memorize which phonogram to use. 

 

I can't think of examples right now - but we run into this all the time - when to use f (faze) vs. ph  (phase) or aw (awful) vs au (auction) vs o (object) vs. a (all). 

[MerryAtHope]

I agree, there is no rule for this one. EY is a phonogram in these words, and it isn't very common overall (a simple Y is used MUCH more often at the ends of words). Just memorize which words use the EY ending in words like honey, money, valley, etc... and move on. When there's a rule, it's worth learning. When not, use other methods like visual, phonetic, or morphemic. In this case, I'd just memorize these words visually, make a common list for your dd to read and associate the words together. Ask how the EE sound is spelled in each of the words. Have her note it, perhaps circle or highlight it if you write the words on a paper or white board. Practice them until they are mastered, done. :-)