When second child is not "acing" school like first child

[marbel]

One more potential advantage of testing I'm not sure was mentioned above:  under certain circumstances, accommodations on the SAT and/or ACT might be available.  For kids in those circumstances, the accommodations can bring significant improvement in scores.  (FWIW, I know someone who had this happen.  The person ended up with a masters in mechanical engineering from Mines.)  College admissions can be a real hurdle in the journey to meeting potential, and obviously higher test scores can help.

 

We are in the process of requesting time-and-a-half for future SAT/ACT.   My kid's slow processing speed and impaired working memory mean he simply can't process things as fast as others, though when he has more time, he can do well.  

 

But I suppose I could just let him do poorly on the tests.   After all, he's not going to get time-and-a-half for everything, all his life.  So why give him help now? 

[Guest]

An evaluation is just information.

 

Most importantly, an evaluation can give you some idea whether accommodations for your son would be akin to training wheels, unnecessary and possibly limiting independence; or to eyeglasses, necessary in order to "see" successfully; or (to stretch the eyeglasses analogy a bit) to vision therapy, a short-term intervention with the goal of training the eyes to function properly and independently.

 

The eyeglasses thing keeps sticking with me. Can you imagine being deprived of your glasses out of concern that you might become dependent on them? Of course you're dependent on them. You need them to see! Well, I do, anyway. I would be unable to function without mine. Really and truly, my life would be incredibly limited, as I would be functionally blind.

Cat

 

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

[Guest]

I don't know if you're saying he's ALSO having an organizational problem, but to focus solely on that seems to miss the point. From your description it seems there is more going on here. If an evaluation gets him the tools he needs to become a more successful student (and you can't know that unless you at least attempt it), then it would seem to be worth it.

 

Why wait until college is at risk? There's a lot more in your control now, and there won't be the added distractions that college brings.

 

I'm not seeing any negative in an evaluation!

No, I am clear that he has difficulties beyond organizational. I have never doubted that he is dyslexic at minimum. It is strongly represented in dh's family. My only uncertainty is what, if anything, should I do about it.

[abacus2]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

 

Plenty of people who benefit from eyeglasses have problems less severe than reading is impossible for them, but they benefit from the support. "Impossibility" is not the line at which support is beneficial.

[Katy]

No, I am clear that he has difficulties beyond organizational. I have never doubted that he is dyslexic at minimum. It is strongly represented in dh's family. My only uncertainty is what, if anything, should I do about it.

 

I'm presuming (due to theology classes) that he's in a private school.  So what you do is call the local school district and ask about the evaluation process for learning disabilities. You have an evaluation, you get the recommendations, and then you decide what to do.  You don't even have to tell the private school anything about it if you don't want, and it will never be part of any tracking or records if you don't want.  Then you research what's going on with him, you research occupational therapy, you go with him to the occupational therapy appointments so you understand what he needs too.  You don't have to blindly follow their advice, you just evaluate it and use what works.  You use the resources that empower him instead of the ones that tell him to just give up.  You're more familiar than most about how to evaluate what works for your family and discard what doesn't. 

 

This isn't a problem, it's a solution.

[zoobie]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

For some people, that is absolutely true. It may not be for your son, but it is for others. There's a continuum. For my DD, it's hard to write legibly and correctly. She has to expend a ton of energy and focus to do that. If she's expending all of her energy writing neatly, there's nothing left to fuel what she's writing. (Dysgraphia is more than simply writing messily... It affects the actual encoding of thoughts into graphic representations.) She also has dyslexia. She will never be a good speller. Ever. No matter how hard she works. If she's going to write something, typing it allows her to focus on the content, not the mechanics. If your son has dysgraphia, would you rather him spend all of his energy on the mechanics or the content?

 

If he's working hard and getting 40s and 50s, that's got to be incredibly demoralizing and depressing! It's also indicative of a learning disorder. The Mislabeled Child is a great recommendation. Please read it and see if anything hits.

 

If everything reading and writing comes easily to you (as it does me), you have to change your way of thinking. Reading and writing are effortless to me. I can use all of my mental energy on the content and don't expend any energy on the mechanics. People with dysgraphia and dyslexia have to work at the mechanics AND the content. It's harder and takes more time. It's not something that goes away either. They will ALWAYS have to work hard at the mechanics. As the content gets harder in high school and college, it gets harder for them to cope unless they have specialized assistance. Testing will tell you what assistance would be most beneficial to him. Work smarter, not harder, kwim? If you're digging a hole in quicksand, it doesn't matter how hard you work. You're never going to get anywhere. Or Sisyphus and the rock. Or...

[Storygirl]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

 

I get what you are saying. My son has dysgraphia, and I have not given up on helping him improve his writing.

 

However....someone with dysgraphia must put a far greater effort into writing well than someone who does not have dysgraphia. So when they are focusing on having good writing, their brain is consumed by that effort, which lowers their brain's ability to do other higher level thinking. So yes, their handwriting might be perfect in that paragraph, but the content of the paragraph may be worse. When the physical writing improves, the quality of the output may decrease. For some people, allowing typing levels that playing field. When their brain is not working so hard on the handwriting, it can work harder at writing good content.

 

This is the same reason that people with dyslexia who can read at grade level still benefit from listening to books on tape or having their texts read aloud to them. When their brain power is not being used for deciphering the words, it can actually be used for understanding the concepts the words are conveying.

 

The same thing underlies all accommodations. They are not a crutch but a removal of obstacles.

 

People with LDs generally must work much harder to achieve the SAME success as their peers. When you remove some of their barriers, it allows them the chance to FLY instead of WALK.  I want to give my kids every chance to soar. My goal is to help them work on remediating their weaknesses while also finding ways to accommodate so that they can maximize their strengths.

[wapiti]

If you think his struggles really might be due to dyslexia,"at a minimum," it's hard to know for sure without a professional to help sort it out.  Aside from the cost, I can't come up with any reasons not to try to sort it out.

 

Also realize that there are a number of bright kids with learning issues.  You might google "twice-exceptional" (2e).  Having a learning issue does not reflect on a person's intelligence.  (I say "learning issue" because there are a number of issues that may not rise to an official diagnosis under the DSM that nonetheless create problems with input and output and can be helped.  One example:  my ds11 has handwriting issues but no dysgraphia diagnosis.  His middle school next year will allow him to have a device, such as an ipad or laptop, though it is technically optional.  Knowing how slow his motor processing speed is, as measured during evals, IMO for him having a device for typing at school really isn't optional, and I am more motivated to make sure he gets what he needs.)

[Slartibartfast]

When my homeschooling overseer suggested having him evaluated last year, she likened accommodations to eyeglasses, saying, "If your child had subpar vision, you would have no objections to getting him glasses." I don't think this is analogous. I have corrected vision. I cannot see better no matter how things are presented. I cannot see better by applying myself more or learning better management skills. This is what did not sit well with me. The specific issue she was focused on at the time was his extremely poor writing skill. She felt that a dx of dysgraphia would serve him, because then he could have accommodations, like keyboarding rather than handwriting. To me, this is like catering to his weakness, rather than requiring him to improve his skills. (This particular issue is practically moot anyway, as handwriting plays a very insignificant role in their schoolwork and he is allowed to use an iPad for notes - all the kids are.) 

 

Anyway, I have an additional difficulty now, because dh also does not want to pursue evaluation. I was considering it, but his reluctance makes me less inclined to seek evaluation. 

 

If someone has dysgraphia here are special pencils and different things one can get to help. Dysgraphia is usually physical, it isn't because one doesn't work on their writing or doesn't apply themselves. I know grammar rules but I still have issues with syntax. I tend to edit my posts a ton because I keep worrying over it. An ipad won't help with all types of dysgraphia.

 

This store has many different items for handwriting.

 

https://www.therapyshoppe.com/

 

http://www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/dysgraphia/what-is-dysgraphia

 

There is a guest post about the issue on the WTM website.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/guest-post-karen-hollis-on-working-with-the-dysgraphic-child/

 

A dyslexic child can also not see better by applying themselves more. There are no glasses for dyslexia. He needs to be able to have access to the tools to learn better management skills, this is why a diagnosis would be useful and particularly more useful before college. 

 

I do have dyslexia. I was also in gifted programs in school because I tested into them. I am luckier than your son because I don't have issues testing or with facts, facts were always the only thing that kept me afloat. He needs help getting through this testing issue and he needs help working through the best learning strategies for *him.* He is going to have a rough time in college like this. 

 

You might read through some of the Learning Challenges board. There are several threads there about similar issues.

[Plateau Mama]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

My son CAN hear without hearing aids. But he is much more successful when I give him the tools he needs, ie hearing aids, sitting near the teacher etc.

 

I can see without my glasses but It is much easier when I don't have headaches caused by not using them.

 

My son can write test answers, but his auditory processing makes it difficult for him to get his thoughts out when he has to hand write things. Every teacher I've ever talked to has said "Teach him to type". So should I not let him type because he might not always have a computer handy? Typing his papers are B's, handwritten they are D's and F's.

[hornblower]

Just ftr, the DSM dx is not called dysgraphia, it's called 'written output disorder' & for some students it has absolutely nothing to do with pens or handwriting. My dd has it & she has lovely, clear cursive & does lots of charting at work by hand. Her hand doesn't get tired & she's never really struggled with the mechanics of writing. She still prefers to handwrite rather than type the 1st draft of assignments, though she's gradually transitioning. It's not a mechanics issue for her, it's really getting thoughts organized & onto paper. She's also gifted in verbal expression. Imagine the disconnect. She can tell you amazing, elaborate explanations, pose long complicated arguments verbally, but when she starts to write, nothing comes out.

For students like this, speech recognition software can be an excellent tool.

[OneStepAtATime]

Quill, I get where you are coming from.  I was where you are.  I totally understand.  I am asking you, for the sake of your son, just please read The Mislabeled Child, by Brock and Fernette Eide.  Others agree.  We just want you to be more informed when making these decisions.  You are posting so obviously you have serious concerns and want to help your son.  Reading that book might at least get you more reliable information whether you ever go the eval path or not.  Please read that book.  What can it hurt to just read the book?  And if you really want some additional reading, especially since you strongly suspect your child has dyslexia, then I also urge you to read The Dyslexic Advantage also by Brock and Fernette Eide.  

 

Your son has potential that is being crushed by his weaknesses.  Only you don't even really know exactly what those weaknesses are.  If you did, and you also knew any strengths that are probably being masked by those weaknesses, you could find a more effective way to not just limp him along and give him crutches, but actually give him the tools/skills to succeed.  Getting those answers, IMHO, will require a professional.  But even if you don't want to go that route at all, wouldn't you want to at least read a resource that might help your son even without evaluations?

 

In the end, if you still decide that following the suggestion of anyone telling you to get evaluations is actually just going to cripple your son and never give him a chance to improve in his areas of weakness then, hey, no harm no foul.  You haven't spent much money and no one at his school will ever see a label.  All you did was read a book.  You can just walk away from this whole line of thinking.  But at least you did it with more reliable information from a source that is respected by a great many in the educational and scientific community.

 

Hugs and best wishes....

[myfunnybunch]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

 

I get what you're saying. As a parent of a child with a disability, I can guarantee you that I have been all over the map regarding labeling and enabling and evaluations and support and everything else that's tied up in figuring out how best to help. You know your son best, and I would certainly never presume to insist that an evaluation is the end-all and be-all.

 

However, the approach in your initial post makes it clear that for your son is struggling with two issues: Academic challenges, and feelings of failure because of those academic challenges. When a young person is at the point that he or she is trying as hard as possible, or nearly so, and still feels like a failure, it might be time to consider supports. The handwriting/keyboarding issue is a great example. If the physical act of writing is challenging to the point that the student is not able to express his or her ideas effectively, typing might be an answer that allows them more mental "space" for organizing thoughts and getting them out on paper. Typically, by high school, that's the goal, getting the thoughts on paper. If getting the thoughts on paper is the goal, how do you meet that goal most effectively?

 

This is where I do think the eyeglass analogy holds, at least for me. It isn't impossible for me to read a textbook without my glasses. Everything doesn't go black when I take them off. I have to hold the book 6 inches from my face and cover one eye and I can only see a few sentences at a time. I tried to read a magazine last summer while dh was fixing the screw in my glasses. UGH. But my goal isn't to decode all of the words and get to the end of the page. It's to be able to absorb the information in a meaningful way. Reading without glasses is so cumbersome that I cannot absorb what I read; reading with glasses is a joy. (Unless I am reading something boring for work.)

 

Again, I don't think I can in any way presume to know what's best for you and your son. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, or arguing a point. It's just that I really really believe that reasonable accommodations, used properly, do not create a lazy student; in fact, a "toolbox" for intervention should always include a plan for helping the student become as independent a learner as possible by teaching him or her how to use their strengths to shore up their challenging areas.

 

Cat

 

[LucyStoner]

For the love of all things, if he has ADD or dyslexia you are doing him a massive disservice to not address it head-on. Unaddressed ADD or dyslexia doesn't just to away and often leads otherwise capable students to drop out of college or massively undershoot their potential. Not wanting him to have a label is a really weak reason to shut the door on the help he may really need. Just because someone has a diagnosis doesn't mean this information needs to be shared, but it could be very empowering for him to know and there are real things that can be done to help him if he has either or both of those things.

 

My husband was diagnosed with ADD when he was 32. I can not tell you all that this late diagnosis and lost time of getting specific help cost him. He has been employed below his potential for most of his adult life, despite being extremely intelligent and capable. He is just now finishing his nth time in college, finally for something that really suits him and his talents. He just jumped from thing to thing academically, doing well and then losing interest. He's a very hard worker and exceptionally bright so he's managed a lot better than many adults with unaddressed ADD. Since his diagnosis, he's advanced at work and excelled academically. Knowing his diagnosis also helped improve our marriage. He can't help but wish he'd been diagnosed sooner.

[Guest]

Quill, I get where you are coming from. I was where you are. I totally understand. I am asking you, for the sake of your son, just please read The Mislabeled Child, by Brock and Fernette Eide. Others agree. We just want you to be more informed when making these decisions. You are posting so obviously you have serious concerns and want to help your son. Reading that book might at least get you more reliable information whether you ever go the eval path or not. Please read that book. What can it hurt to just read the book? And if you really want some additional reading, especially since you strongly suspect your child has dyslexia, then I also urge you to read The Dyslexic Advantage also by Brock and Fernette Eide.

 

Your son has potential that is being crushed by his weaknesses. Only you don't even really know exactly what those weaknesses are. If you did, and you also knew any strengths that are probably being masked by those weaknesses, you could find a more effective way to not just limp him along and give him crutches, but actually give him the tools/skills to succeed. Getting those answers, IMHO, will require a professional. But even if you don't want to go that route at all, wouldn't you want to at least read a resource that might help your son even without evaluations?

 

In the end, if you still decide that following the suggestion of anyone telling you to get evaluations is actually just going to cripple your son and never give him a chance to improve in his areas of weakness then, hey, no harm no foul. You haven't spent much money and no one at his school will ever see a label. All you did was read a book. You can just walk away from this whole line of thinking. But at least you did it with more reliable information from a source that is respected by a great many in the educational and scientific community.

 

Hugs and best wishes....

I may read the book. I could not get it on Kindle. I downloaded Dyslexic Advantage and Overcoming Dyslexia. I have limited time to spend reading, but I can tell

I will puffy-heart love Dyslexic Advantage, because I know this to be true. My husband and four of his five siblings are business owners/Entrepreneurs. All of the men have pilot's licenses. They all have *incredible* talent for building and constructing things. My DH has *incredible* spatial skills. But all of the siblings, to varying degrees, cannot spell. My DH attempted to write "Beef Broth" on the grocery list two days ago and what he wrote was "Beff Broth." I know this does not mean he has misspelled "Beef" for fifty years; it means when he writes the word beef, his brain goes something like, "There's a double letter in there somewhere and I know it begins with a 'b' and ends with an 'f'." Dh is also a lefty with mixed dominance, which is common in dyslexia.

 

I also have a notion that this will not be the last time I have to consider this question, because ds9 also displays some dyslexic tendencies, although he reads and writes better than ds15 did at the same age.

 

I will speak to this more later; I am outta time.

[Guest]

For the love of all things, if he has ADD or dyslexia you are doing him a massive disservice to not address it head-on. Unaddressed ADD or dyslexia doesn't just to away and often leads otherwise capable students to drop out of college or massively undershoot their potential. Not wanting him to have a label is a really weak reason to shut the door on the help he may really need. Just because someone has a diagnosis doesn't mean this information needs to be shared, but it could be very empowering for him to know and there are real things that can be done to help him if he has either or both of those things.

 

My husband was diagnosed with ADD when he was 32. I can not tell you all that this late diagnosis and lost time of getting specific help cost him. He has been employed below his potential for most of his adult life, despite being extremely intelligent and capable. He is just now finishing his nth time in college, finally for something that really suits him and his talents. He just jumped from thing to thing academically, doing well and then losing interest. He's a very hard worker and exceptionally bright so he's managed a lot better than many adults with unaddressed ADD. Since his diagnosis, he's advanced at work and excelled academically. Knowing his diagnosis also helped improve our marriage. He can't help but wish he'd been diagnosed sooner.

katie, I appreciate your thoughts and want to speak more to this, but my time is limited, so this will have to suffice for the moment: i do not see it this way, because of my observations of dh and his sibs. They all found ways to capitalize (literally and figuratively) on their strengths while getting arounds their weaknesses. They are in construction and entrepreneurial fields because their spatial skills are a huge asset, while there is limited need to communicate through handwriting, (especially now, with computers) and limited need to read well.

 

More later.

[katilac]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

 

I would bet dollars to donuts that it isn't impossible for you to read a book without glasses. 

 

 

No, I am clear that he has difficulties beyond organizational. I have never doubted that he is dyslexic at minimum. It is strongly represented in dh's family. My only uncertainty is what, if anything, should I do about it.

 

This boggles me. You don't doubt that he is dyslexic at minimum, but you don't want him evaluated? I honestly cannot understand that. 

 

Again, an evaluation is just that and nothing more. You state that you are more than willing to help him on a daily basis, so why not get the information that will enable this help to be targeted and effective? That will enable your goal of fhim gradually taking over for himself?

 

A dx doesn't mean he will automatically be eligible for a long list of testing and school accommodations. Even if he is eligible, it doesn't mean he has to use them.  A dx will steer you in the right direction to get the specific information needed to help him improve his skills. 

 

You think that your son will react badly to a dx. I will say again that, on some level, it doesn't matter what his reaction might be. My dd still reacts badly when she finds out she needs a shot, but it doesn't stop her from needing it. Your son already knows he is struggling in school. Presumably he knows that many in his family have dyslexia. Why would it surprise him to discover he has it as well? Why not just talk to him about it, honestly and openly? 

 

I think that you are "stuck" on the general idea that children are over labelled, and it is leading you to unintentionally minimize his very specific problems. Even in your thread title, you say that he is 'not acing' school when he is actually in danger of failing multiple classes. I am sure you have worked hard to support and teach him over the years, but he needs more.

 

And he needs it now, because there is no time. You said that one possibility, an appointment to USAFA, is already starting to slip away. Another possibility is graduate school, yet he is struggling mightily with simple reading passages just a few years before college. When will it be time for an evaluation?  

 

As many posters have stated, an evaluation does not commit you to a course of action. It is information to use as you see fit. 

 

Best of luck to your son. 

[CinV]

For the love of all things, if he has ADD or dyslexia you are doing him a massive disservice to not address it head-on. Unaddressed ADD or dyslexia doesn't just to away and often leads otherwise capable students to drop out of college or massively undershoot their potential. Not wanting him to have a label is a really weak reason to shut the door on the help he may really need. Just because someone has a diagnosis doesn't mean this information needs to be shared, but it could be very empowering for him to know and there are real things that can be done to help him if he has either or both of those things.

 

 

 

I agree with the bolded.  Maybe it would help to stop thinking about the eyeglass analogy and replace it with an infection.  Your son's immune system is there to fight off infections, but you wouldn't refuse to give him antibiotics to help his immune system.   No sane parent would.  If you've suspected something is wrong since he was 3 and refused to get him tested due to you bias against "labels", he has missed years of specialized help.  How much more does he have to struggle before he gets real help, not just hand-holding by you?

[Storygirl]

Quill, :grouphug:  :grouphug:  I know this is hard.

 

One suggestion -- you say one of the issues is that your husband is opposed to evaluations. That's a tough obstacle. May I suggest you have him read the responses in this thread? It may give him some things to think about that he has not yet considered.

[abacus2]

Does your son want to be limited to the careers his dad and uncles can manage with their dyslexia? Are you sure beyond any doubt that you son's struggles aren't more severe and that he will be able to overcome his struggles successfully if he follows the common family career paths?

 

ETA: Avoiding labels can be reasonable if problems are minor and the student in question is likely to put in less effort if they have a label as an excuse. However, when problems are serious and not resolved through extra effort and guidance from mom, avoiding labels is akin to knowing your child is sick, but refusing to find out what is wrong.

[OneStepAtATime]

You might also look at Barton Reading and Spelling.  Can be implemented by a parent, comes with training DVDs and a very clearly laid out TM and is Orton Gillingham based (recommended for dyslexics).  It can be used with any child from 5 or 6 up to 105.  This program is what finally unlocked a lot of my kids' reading/writing/spelling abilities and it doesn't just remediate, it takes a child through High School level material.

[wapiti]

They all found ways to capitalize (literally and figuratively) on their strengths while getting arounds their weaknesses.

Would you like to help your ds find ways to get around his weaknesses? Is it best to leave it to him to find a way around, which might not happen until his high school grades are shot? What about giving him a chance to improve the weakesses, which is different from mere accommodation? Can't do that if you don't know what they are, specifically.

 

If your dh is an obstacle to testing, that's difficult.

 

In our house, it would be about the money - is it worth it at this juncture. However, we have had multiple kids have multiple ed psych evals, some through school and some private. In your ds's situation, I don't think this is even a close call - it makes logical sense to rule out issues. (and while you're at it, I'd be inclined to rule out developmental vision issues to make sure there's nothing there adding to the problem.)

 

Eta, Quill you always seem to be a level-headed poster. I would suggest making a list of advantages and disadvantages of evals, adding to it as you do more reading. Once you have a better understanding of the advantages and disadvantages, I am sure you would be able to get gour dh to go along with a plan for evals if that is what you should want to do.

Edited October 23, 2014 by wapiti

[marbel]

Quill, :grouphug:  :grouphug:  I know this is hard.

 

One suggestion -- you say one of the issues is that your husband is opposed to evaluations. That's a tough obstacle. May I suggest you have him read the responses in this thread? It may give him some things to think about that he has not yet considered.

 

Or, possibly better yet (depending on the husband), present him with an executive summary of the research you've conducted.  It doesn't matter if all of it comes right from this thread. 

 

 

My husband would never read all these responses.  Or, I should say, asking him to read it all would be the perfect way to shut down the conversation. 

[LucyStoner]

katie, I appreciate your thoughts and want to speak more to this, but my time is limited, so this will have to suffice for the moment: i do not see it this way, because of my observations of dh and his sibs. They all found ways to capitalize (literally and figuratively) on their strengths while getting arounds their weaknesses. They are in construction and entrepreneurial fields because their spatial skills are a huge asset, while there is limited need to communicate through handwriting, (especially now, with computers) and limited need to read well.

 

If you won't listen to me (because I can keep going with anecdotes about people who didn't reach their full potential as soon as they might because they thought they were just crazy, lazy or stupid), please read up. Driven to Distraction is a good starting point.

 

If this were entirely the case and you weren't concerned at all, you really wouldn't be worrying about his grades. Yet you are posting, comparing his academic performance to your own and your daughters. You are worrying. Listen to that.

 

My husband did basically fine in the structure of high school. fine as in great grades, very high test scores and the type of college acceptance letters you'd match with that. College is the opposite of structured though and he wrote himself off as just plain crazy for a long time. He was missed the final for his physics class entirely. Was more than prepared to take it but totally and utterly forget WHERE it was.

 

He found plenty of ways to adapt and like I said, as a hard worker he did ok for himself. He just didn't do all he could have, would have liked to have done.

 

The relationship factor is important too. Truthfully what brought about his diagnosis was him seeking counseling because we were going crazy trying to work around elements of his ADD (which neither of us has the slightest idea he had.) The day I went with him to his counselor for his third or fourth visit we stood in the lobby for a long time with him struggling to remember which doctor it was he'd been seeing. Then he realized he'd walked into the entirely wrong building. Then we read a book about adults with ADD and someone else in that book basically did the same thing. It was like a decade of brain fog suddenly made sense.

 

If you have a broken leg, you set it. You don't worry about the label of having a cast. Maybe he doesn't have dyslexia or ADD, maybe he does. Knowing won't hurt and it could help.

[albeto.]

katie, I appreciate your thoughts and want to speak more to this, but my time is limited, so this will have to suffice for the moment: i do not see it this way, because of my observations of dh and his sibs. They all found ways to capitalize (literally and figuratively) on their strengths while getting arounds their weaknesses. They are in construction and entrepreneurial fields because their spatial skills are a huge asset, while there is limited need to communicate through handwriting, (especially now, with computers) and limited need to read well.

 

More later.

 

Gently, I would encourage you to consider that your observations, while vast, does not expose you to certain information that may explain the very things you're observing and trying to figure out. I don't mean to say you're an ignorant person, but there is a whole field of information that you simply have not tapped into. Dyslexia isn't just about reading and writing. It's a particular cognitive processing challenge that is not a weakness, and is not treated as one. Any label is a convenient way to shorten a lot of explanations, but you don't even have to apply a label ever. If you find tried and true strategies that help others with similar cognitive processing challenges, then you will be helping your son without giving him an unnecessary crutch. Experts in the field have the knowledge of these tried and true strategies. Ignoring this opportunity may invite unnecessary stress on your son. People deal with stress in all kinds of ways, and not always very efficiently. You might be able to help your child avoid some of that stress. You might consider looking to the experts in this field to find out how. 

[Trish]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

 

Now how would it sound if someone denied you glasses, and was annoyed at the term near-sightedness (for example), because it isn't *impossible* for near-sighted people to read books, they just have to hold them closer to their faces and read more slowly.

 

For pity's sake, a kid who has trouble writing legibly is not doing it on purpose. I can't imagine being annoyed at someone's disability, even if you consider it minor.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to go to bat for your son.

 

It's frustrating to be near-sighted (or far-sighted or astigmatic) and I'm sure it's frustrating to have dysgraphia or some learning disability. But probably even more frustrating if you're not getting any help for it!

 

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, assessment was what finally helped my DD to feel good about herself again.  She realized she isn't stupid after all. She just needs a different type of instruction at a different pace to learn.  It also gave me answers that were desperately needed on finding what WOULD work.  She was so happy when she found out there really was a reason for her struggles and that the issues were masking some amazing strengths that had yet to be tapped.  She was also relieved to know that we finally had some solid answers for ways to help her, instead of just randomly picking things and hoping they would work.

 

When she left school she had completed 5th grade reading at a 1st grade level.  She had already repeated a grade, too.  She needed me to reteach every single thing at home.  We had no idea why school was so hard when she was so bright.  Her self esteem was plummeting.  Evals gave us the answers we needed to turn it around.  In 7 years struggling in a brick and mortar school, getting more and more demoralized and thinking she was stupid, they were not able to help her.  All my assistance did was help her limp along.  And she was losing ground.  

 

Once I had solid answers and changed our approach, she went from reading at a 1st grade level after 7 years of instruction to reading Divergent in 5 days after a year of targeted instruction for HER NEEDS.  I didn't get the evals to get sanctioned crutches for my child.  And I didn't care about labels.  The labels were irrelevant.  It was the answers on how to teach her better that mattered.  And those answers were eye opening.  There were issues we had no idea existed.  And some amazing strengths we had no idea existed.  And answers on how to pull all of that together into a plan of action.

 

We did provide some accommodations, too, and those were invaluable, but the goal was to find the issues, get solid, detailed answers, and tackle the problems with proven options.  We had been shooting blindly in the dark for years.  It was time to change our game plan, admit we were out of our league, and get her the help she deserved.  And it worked.  Oh my goodness what a different child now.  She laughs and smiles.  She talks about careers and all the things she thinks she would be good at.  She knows where her issues are and how to address those.  She is on board with all the remediation we are doing BECAUSE IT IS WORKING.   She is finally thriving in math, reading, spelling, etc.  We still have really tough days, but those are a lot further apart than they once were.  I just wish we had gotten answers so much sooner than we did. 

 

Best wishes...

[LucyStoner]

Quill-

 

So now your skepticism expands to include dysgraphia as a term? Something isn't fake because you personally don't like the word.

 

My son can write legibly enough, which believe you me was hard earned. What he can't do however to transfer his complex thoughts and ideas to written words with a pen and paper. His writing is of a much higher quality now that he has a device to tap out his thoughts on. No amount of ignoring his problem with writing would have solved the problem as well as getting him the simple and relatively inexpensive tool he needed to reach his potential as a strong writer.

 

As far as I know you are not qualified to be skeptical of things like dysgraphia or what you write off as "labels". Your words come off as more committed to your belief set and ideology about special needs than to helping students reach their full potential regardless of their needs.

 

There are many tools for students with special needs which are no more invasive than glasses. Rejecting the tools my son needs to reach his high level of potential because of any beliefs or preference or outright biases that my husband or I have would be a real disservice to our child.

 

You might see it as catering to a weakness. From where I sit, it is removing barriers to him building on a strength.

[Guest]

Quill-

 

So now your skepticism expands to include dysgraphia as a term? Something isn't fake because you personally don't like the word.

 

My son can write legibly enough, which believe you me was hard earned. What he can't do however to transfer his complex thoughts and ideas to written words with a pen and paper. His writing is of a much higher quality now that he has a device to tap out his thoughts on. No amount of ignoring his problem with writing would have solved the problem as well as getting him the simple and relatively inexpensive tool he needed to reach his potential as a strong writer.

 

As far as I know you are not qualified to be skeptical of things like dysgraphia or what you write off as "labels". Your words come off as more committed to your belief set and ideology about special needs than to helping students reach their full potential regardless of their needs.

 

There are many tools for students with special needs which are no more invasive than glasses. Rejecting the tools my son needs to reach his high level of potential because of any beliefs or preference or outright biases that my husband or I have would be a real disservice to our child.

 

You might see it as catering to a weakness. From where I sit, it is removing barriers to him building on a strength.

Katie, You seem to be taking my discussion of my son personally, as if i presume to tell you or others how to manage your own children's learning. I am speaking only about my own thoughts and what I think or observe in my own child and extended family. Do we not, as a group, defend a mother's instincts about the needs of her own children? Do we not, as homeschoolers, generally believe mothers are experts on their own children?

 

I do have concerns about my son; obviously, or I would have posted nothing. My most significant worry, when I started this thread, was how to navigate the discrepancy of having one exceedingly well-performing child in school, with one struggler. I do not want to contribute to ds believing he is "bad at History" or "can't do tests," things he has expressed. Some posters earlier in this thread offered exactly the kind of support I needed; I can see how things like explicitly explaining to ds that a question that starts with, "Give the reason for...," requires a response of, "The reason for X was..." would help him immensely.

[LucyStoner]

Mother's instinct is one thing. You aren't discussing instinct though- bluntly you are discussing your extremely non-qualified hunches about the validity in general of any particular diagnosis. In fact, your instinct is that there is likely dyslexia and possibly more. You really might want to consider how your words read. You sound EXTREMELY biased against the idea that certain special needs are even legitimate, like you just don't want to accept that your son may be more than merely struggling. It may not be in your power to fully address the situation without knowing for sure what he is even facing.

 

I am not personally offended by your words. My son is getting all the help he needs. I am dumbstruck that you would write off anything that might be able to help your son without even securing the information. You're his mother and you obviously want the best for him. Wouldn't knowing one way or the other be superior to doubts and worries and wondering later if you covered all the bases?

 

You probably can't follow him to college and hold his hand through most every task and manage his assignments. He needs to be able to do that himself. At 14, a dream of the USAFA is already being snuffed out. A professional educator who has worked with you and your son has made a recommendation for evaluation, one that most posters here have seconded. What more do you need to merely arm yourself with evidence based information rather than your personal preferences? Until you educate yourself beyond the anti-label bias you are spouting, I just think you are speaking out of a lack of understanding of what the treatments and adaptive assistance even look like. It's that sort of bias that leads a lot of kids to hit adulthood without something that may have really helped them.

[Guest]

Mother's instinct is one thing. You aren't discussing instinct though- bluntly you are discussing your extremely non-qualified hunches about the validity in general of any particular diagnosis. In fact, your instinct is that there is likely dyslexia and possibly more. You really might want to consider how your words read. You sound EXTREMELY biased against the idea that certain special needs are even legitimate, like you just don't want to accept that your son may be more than merely struggling. It may not be in your power to fully address the situation without knowing for sure what he is even facing.

 

I am not personally offended by your words. My son is getting all the help he needs. I am dumbstruck that you would write off anything that might be able to help your son without even securing the information. You're his mother and you obviously want the best for him. Wouldn't knowing one way or the other be superior to doubts and worries and wondering later if you covered all the bases?

 

You probably can't follow him to college and hold his hand through most every task and manage his assignments. He needs to be able to do that himself. At 14, a dream of the USAFA is already being snuffed out. A professional educator who has worked with you and your son has made a recommendation for evaluation, one that most posters here have seconded. What more do you need to merely arm yourself with evidence based information rather than your personal preferences? Until you educate yourself beyond the anti-label bias you are spouting, I just think you are speaking out of a lack of understanding of what the treatments and adaptive assistance even look like. It's that sort of bias that leads a lot of kids to hit adulthood without something that may have really helped them.

It is not a preference of mine. I am looking at others in my family who did or did not obtain evaluations and dxes. I am basing my thoughts partially on what I see with that. I'm also basing my thoughts partially on what dh thinks about it; I assume he has a fair idea of the merits or drawbacks of dxes, since he has both his own experience (never dxed) and other sibs and nephews (dxed) to consider.

 

I do think semantics matter. What we tell our kids they can or cannot do matters. My own mother had low expectations for me in math. I accepted my own poor performance in math in high school, no doubt in part because my mother indicated that I had no innate strength in there, so oh well. You know what? It is true that I have no innate strength there, or, at least, it does not come easily as language-based subjects do. But I re-wrote that program in adulthood. Am I ever going to become a CPA? Probably not. But I don't fear math anymore; it is just a subject in which I have to put forth substantially more effort than in others. It is this "can't do it" thinking that I seek to not inflict on my son.

 

I have not ruled out having an evaluation. I always try to keep my options open. I am not closed to evaluations if time indicates that I he cannot overcome his weaknesses without professional help. But I am leaving it alone for the moment.

[albeto.]

I do think semantics matter. What we tell our kids they can or cannot do matters. My own mother had low expectations for me in math. I accepted my own poor performance in math in high school, no doubt in part because my mother indicated that I had no innate strength in there, so oh well. You know what? It is true that I have no innate strength there, or, at least, it does not come easily as language-based subjects do. But I re-wrote that program in adulthood. Am I ever going to become a CPA? Probably not. But I don't fear math anymore; it is just a subject in which I have to put forth substantially more effort than in others. It is this "can't do it" thinking that I seek to not inflict on my son.

 

If you don't mind my asking, in what way do you think an evaluation is likely to lead to your son thinking he can't do something? In my experience, evaluations lead to short cuts with regard to looking for and finding alternative skills for your desired purpose - learning how to solve the problem (whatever the problem is). Professional insight helps the child avoid reinventing the wheel, freeing up time to access information and move on to more. 

 

My parents used the approach you're talking about with my sister whose dyslexia is pretty significant. Like many presentations of dyslexia, hers doesn't affect her reading and writing as much as it affects

. She did fine in school, did fine in college, got helpful hints from friends and family, learned to work very hard. It wasn't until she was in her 40's that she realized how many wheels she had reinvented just to discover something the rest of us took for granted. Because her time was used in that way, she was unprepared for the things she would have really enjoyed, and there was no reason to prevent her from accessing the information that could have helped her. My parents didn't understand the value of treating dyslexia because they thought it was just a matter of working harder. It's really not, though. 

[Catwoman]

Quill, can you homeschool him for high school so you can give him the time and individual attention he needs, and also work with him to identify his strengths and weaknesses, and help him figure out how to manage them effectively?

 

If he is going to stay in a "regular" school, I don't think you should wait to have him evaluated and diagnosed. Otherwise, he may begin to believe that he isn't bright enough to do high school work, when that isn't the case. If he realizes what's really going on and is given the tools he needs to function more effectively in a school environment, I can't really see a down side to having him evaluated. It's not like he is still 5 years old and you think he might just be a bit immature; you know there are real issues here.

 

I hope you are able to help him. He always sounds like such a good kid when you talk about him.

[marbel]

<sip>

 

It is this "can't do it" thinking that I seek to not inflict on my son.

 

<snip>

 

A professional evaluation does not inflict "can't do it" thinking.  It gives answers and, if necessary, tools and interventions which enable "can do it" thinking. 

 

It seems like you are looking at your husband and his family and thinking "well, they turned out OK, so our son who is just like them will too."  But he is not necessarily just like them.  And maybe their lives could have been even better if they'd had some help early on. 

[mom2jjka]

My son has dyslexia (and executive function issues.) 

He is a freshman in a brick and mortar school this year after being homeschooled for grades 1-8.

It was VERY rough at first.  he was bombing tests and quizzes, and his self esteem was very low.

I had a meeting with his teachers and explained his limitations.  They gave me some pointers, and they all said that they were glad to know that he was struggling.

He has now brought his grades up to all A's and B's - but I have to work with him EVERY night.  There are times when I have to read passages from his textbook to him, (especially in history with foreign names of people/places.)

The thing that has probably helped the most is that we make notes together on 3x5 cards, and he uses them as flash cards and reviews them EVERY day.

In some respects I still feel like I am homeschooling him - but I know it is going to be a learning curve, and I am praying that in a little while he will be able to do his work more independently.

[kubiac]

There is a load of emotional hits one can take by thinking they are fundamentally *unable* to do X, Y, Z in the learning arena. 

 

But what if he already thinks that he's unable, and an evaluation would provide a concrete, evidence-based explanation as to why, as opposed whatever explanation he may have constructed for himself.  (Could he then build a workaround that he's not currently seeing is possible because he currently thinks he is not ever going to be able to this, no matter how hard he tries? I'm not trying to be saucy, I'm just suggesting that the "label" you fear may actually be empowering for some children and families.)

 

I can't find it right now (although I'm looking), but a couple years ago there was a great article from a young woman (now an editorial intern at a magazine) writing about how her parents sent her for an educational evaluation in middle school or so. She had been absolutely failing a constellation of classes, and no amount of sheer will seemed to be improving her outcomes. The battery of tests revealed certain cognitive weaknesses and gave them names, and suddenly she was able to feel like she wasn't just concrete-block dense, and she and her parents and her educational team were able to construct novel approaches to learning that fit her brain. 

 

Sometimes giving symptoms a name can yield a very specific cure. Sometimes you're just under the weather, but other times if you know it's malaria, you can give the patient quinine (or whatever they do in a world that's not a 19th century colonial novel).

[kubiac]

katie, I appreciate your thoughts and want to speak more to this, but my time is limited, so this will have to suffice for the moment: i do not see it this way, because of my observations of dh and his sibs. They all found ways to capitalize (literally and figuratively) on their strengths while getting arounds their weaknesses. They are in construction and entrepreneurial fields because their spatial skills are a huge asset, while there is limited need to communicate through handwriting, (especially now, with computers) and limited need to read well.

 

More later.

 

(1) There is no question that dyslexic people can succeed! No one is saying that there are not advantages to dyslexia, but there are ALSO disadvantages. Yes, creativity and resourcefulness are fostered in dyslexic people, but there may be a cost: Depression and feelings of low self-worth related to "I'm not smart, I'm not good at school, no matter how hard I try to please those who love me, I just can't do this thing that everyone else can do so well." Note: It is not the word dyslexia that causes these feelings, it is the day-to-day lived experience of failing tests, being unable to write notes without fear of being mocked or corrected for your misspellings, or having to pass on watching a subtitled TV show because you just can't read the words fast enough to understand the show.

 

My mother, two brothers, uncle, grandfather and great-grandmother all have/had dyslexia and learning disabilities. They are all awesome and successful in different ways, but the only one who didn't pay a visible cost in personal confidence because of their dyslexia was my youngest brother who was evaluated at age five or six and had early intervention and appropriate support from the beginning. (That brother ended up with a Berkeley Ph.D.)

 

(2) If I may say, I also think you are being a little unnecessarily hard on yourself. You don't have to figure this all out by yourself! There are people out there who have made a career out of working with LD kids and they may have great experience and insight that can truly help. Open yourself up to that and you might be surprised by the information and resources and support available to you and your son.

[Slartibartfast]

But that is exactly why the eyeglasses analogy does not hold for me. Having to, say, write test answers in handwriting is not "impossible" in the same way that it is "impossible" to read a textbook without needed glasses. It is possible. Even the term "dysgraphia" annoys me because it implies the child is incapable of writing legibly and correctly.

 

 

 The handwriting thing is a physical issue, it is often related to problems with the finger joints. One can get therapy pencils or writing tools to help.

 

It isn't pretend. 

 

[Trish]

A professional evaluation does not inflict "can't do it" thinking.  It gives answers and, if necessary, tools and interventions which enable "can do it" thinking. 

 

It seems like you are looking at your husband and his family and thinking "well, they turned out OK, so our son who is just like them will too."  But he is not necessarily just like them.  And maybe their lives could have been even better if they'd had some help early on. 

 

And the family is, after all, anecdotal evidence of one way of coping. And that may or may not be the best way for this child. Who should be able to get help without being hindered by family biases.

 

There is nothing to lose by getting an evaluation. There is everything to lose by not getting one.

[OneStepAtATime]

It is not a preference of mine. I am looking at others in my family who did or did not obtain evaluations and dxes. I am basing my thoughts partially on what I see with that. I'm also basing my thoughts partially on what dh thinks about it; I assume he has a fair idea of the merits or drawbacks of dxes, since he has both his own experience (never dxed) and other sibs and nephews (dxed) to consider.

 

I do think semantics matter. What we tell our kids they can or cannot do matters. My own mother had low expectations for me in math. I accepted my own poor performance in math in high school, no doubt in part because my mother indicated that I had no innate strength in there, so oh well. You know what? It is true that I have no innate strength there, or, at least, it does not come easily as language-based subjects do. But I re-wrote that program in adulthood. Am I ever going to become a CPA? Probably not. But I don't fear math anymore; it is just a subject in which I have to put forth substantially more effort than in others. It is this "can't do it" thinking that I seek to not inflict on my son.

 

I have not ruled out having an evaluation. I always try to keep my options open. I am not closed to evaluations if time indicates that I he cannot overcome his weaknesses without professional help. But I am leaving it alone for the moment.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

This makes me sad.  I guarantee evaluations for my children did not inflict a "can't do it" attitude. It was the opposite in fact. The day to day grind and constant struggle while others seemed to breeze through was what was creating a "can't do it" attitude in my children.  They were starting to believe they were so stupid that there was no point in trying.  They were working 10 times harder and gaining half as much.  

 

Evaluations gave me answers for how to target the weak areas with effective remediation, not just the poorly thought out and implemented tutoring/assistance they sometimes got in school.  And gave the kids answers for better ways, more effective and efficient ways, to actually learn, and learn well.  The hard work they were putting in was being put into ways of learning that were finally starting to actually HELP them, not hinder them.  My daughter announced to her whole 5th grade class, with PRIDE, that she was dyslexic.  Why?  Because her struggles finally made sense, and she could recite concrete examples of famous and successful dyslexics and she now had a concrete plan for a better way to learn.  She was THRILLED.

 

The evaluator explained having learning challenges like dyslexia to me this way and perhaps this will help.

 

A classroom full of kids all start out in 4k or kinder with very little base knowledge compared to where they need to end up.  Visualize it as training for a really long marathon of sorts.  All the kids start out on their run, but my kid is blocked from taking the same path.  My kid isn't allowed to take that path no matter how hard they try.  Everyone else follows a well paved road, with lots of people guiding them and cheering them on.  My kid can't.  So my kid, being bright and determined, heads out into the unknown, trying desperately to find the finish line.  They may run 10 times as far, and work 10 times harder than any other runner in their class but they are following a really poor path that leads them on a meandering journey.  They come in dead last and their tremendous efforts are not appreciated.  

 

The next day/month/year everyone starts again.  Again my kid cannot follow the path everyone else is on, no matter how badly they want to.  Again everyone else follows the easier path, with all the signs and support.  Only now it is more familiar and the run is easier for them.  My kid cannot follow that path.  They head out into the wild blue yonder yet again, trying to replicate what they already know to get to the finish line.  Only the path they were on before was inefficient and hard to follow.  They cannot find it, so they have to create a new path, and again it is inefficient and meandering.  They come in last again.  And the gap is just a tiny bit wider now.  And that gap between when the others finish and when my kid finishes just KEEPS gets wider.  

 

Eventually, my kid does find a way to get to the finish line in a more efficient way, after years and years of exhaustive effort, working harder and harder, but it is still a really lousy way to get there.  And all that constant effort for so little result starts to make them doubt themselves.  And start to doubt if they will ever be able to run like all the others.  It starts to seem like maybe putting in all that effort is a waste of time.  Why bother?

 

Along comes a special trainer.  They know why the normal path is blocked for my runner.  They assess how to get rid of those obstacles blocking my kids' path.  They send my kid to someone who can now go back and train them properly on how to get down that path.  It might not be exactly like the path everyone else is running on, but it is far more efficient than what my child was doing before.  The new trainer trains them on how to take that other path.  Now when they put in all that tremendous effort my child is netting results and getting to the finish line with their peers.  And they may even beat them there.  In fact, marathon running may be their great strength and now that they have proper training and a more efficient path, they can truly shine.  They can finally succeed.  They weren't given some motorized wheel chair with turbo boost so they could race to the finish line before everyone else.  They were given the proper tools and knowledge to get there on their own two feet.

 

Does that make sense?  It made so much sense to me.  And when we switched from the reading/writing/spelling programs the school was using to a program designed to remediate my kid's weaknesses while tapping her strengths and that switch netted almost immediate results I realized what the evaluator truly meant.  We needed a better training program for their life marathon.  Not quick fixes or easy outs.  Just a more efficient path and a better way to train.

 

It is like handing a child a screwdriver to tighten a screw instead of making them use a mallet.  A bright, determined child that is handed that mallet might eventually tighten that screw but a screwdriver sure would work WAAAY better.  And once that screw is tightened they have a ton of time left over to do other things, instead of spending all day trying to tighten a screw with a mallet.

 

Unfortunately, many times evaluations through the school system just give labels, frequently inaccurate, and then they give them a few accommodations and very little if any effective remediation.  Sometimes someone gets lucky and has a great school with a great evaluation team and great teachers that know how to help, which is GREAT.  

 

Personally, though, as far as I have seen, odds are not as good going that route.  Or even using the private sector if you get a neuropsychologist that only cares about doing the school evaluations.  What truly helps is finding someone who cares about helping the child long term to find their gifts and abilities, and to help the parent find the path to help remediate their weaknesses, not just to pass a few tests, but so that they can reach their full potential and thrive, not just in school but in life.

 

Best wishes....

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. There are many non-med things that families can do at home to help with ADHD, and there are also accommodations that the school can make that do not include medication. My son's list of recommended accommodations includes things such as

* OT for dysgraphia

* Sit near the front of the room and close to the teacher

* Additional time to complete tests and assignments

* Taking tests away from the rest of the class, without time constraints

* Be given written assignments well in advance of due dates

* Being tested orally instead of having a written test

 

That is only part of what they suggested for school. We also received extensive suggestions for things we can do at home to help with homework or homeschool work.

 

Training in calming techniques, biofeedback, help with executive function, perhaps occupational therapy....I could go on and on listing things that one can do to help ADHD that do not require meds.

 

I apologize for leaving out a key piece of information.  Instead of saying that the drugs are the *only* treatment for ADD/ADHD, I should have said that it is the *first* treatment, at least in our school district.  No accommodations are mandated for the teachers until the child has been diagnosed and is on medication.  

 

First, diagnosis.  Second, medication.  Only then will they write an IEP for accommodations.

 

I hope that other school districts are different.

[LucyStoner]

Suzanne, your school district CAN NOT require medication for an IEP. They can't even require that the parents disclose the child's medication records.

 

You are mistaken or they are violating the law.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

That is illegal if true (and you may have incorrect info).  Schools can not require that a child be medicated before writing an IEP. 

 

I was told this by the school's special ed coordinator, and she showed me the information in writing from the school district.  I guess she and the school district were misinformed (I think not).

 

Nevertheless, since medication is evidently the first line of treatment here, and since neither ds nor dh wanted to medicate, we didn't see the point of diagnosis.  There are many reasons to avoid diagnosis and psychotropic drugs (ie. Dh spent 21 years in the military, and is a private pilot, and has seen that an ADHD/ADD diagnosis with or without medication can keep you from both.  Furthermore, ds has a good friend who is medicated for ADHD, and she HATES the way the meds make her feel -- numb).  I figured that any teacher worth a grain of salt would be willing to grant the types of accommodations ds needed, without an IEP.  Mainly, he needed to sit close to the teacher and the board, and he needed to be reminded to turn his work in on his way out the door.  The teachers also needed to be more diligent about posting assignments online (as they were supposed to be doing anyway).  

 

He was able to do the work (no learning disabilities), and would get A's on the work he turned in.  It was all those 0's from missed assignments that were killing him.  He didn't test well, but extra time wouldn't help him.  He still rushes through tests (always has) -- just wants to be finished so he can go on to something else.  Besides, it's hard to do well on a test when you haven't done the assignments, especially when you haven't noticed that a test is even scheduled.  

 

Of course, it's hardly an issue anymore (11th grade).  Most of the problems ds had in 9th grade are gone.    I helped him a lot in 9th because he couldn't keep track of what he was supposed to be doing.  I'd communicate with the teachers and compile the lists of missing assignments he needed to turn in before each term ended.  We had weekend marathons at the end of every term, getting all the work done that he'd missed.  His school accepted late work as part of their "mastery model" of education, so he was able to pull pretty good grades this way.  It wasn't ideal, but he learned what he is capable of accomplishing, if he set his mind to it.

 

10th grade was better, but I still helped him some because he was in 4 honors/AP classes (Honors Geometry, Biology, and History and AP English), and 4 media based electives that took lots of time.  The 8 classes met on alternating days, so assignments were due anywhere from 2 to 4 days later.  Many assignments were project based, so due dates were spread out into the future like seeds in the wind.  He was simply overwhelmed.  He was placed in honors/AP classes because his teachers could tell he was bright, and thought he might just need more challenge and a different group of peers to pull him out of the clowning around and zoning-out that were his m.o. in 9th grade.  It worked!  Those courses kicked his butt, but he learned to come home and do his homework every day.  Second semester, he dropped the Honors History and AP English, but kept the Honors Geometry and Biology.  That was a good level of challenge for him, but he was weary of the place.  He wanted a change.

 

This year, 11th grade, he transferred to a school that only does four classes at a time, though the 1 credit classes (which usually take a year), are condensed into one semester.  He can still end up with 8 credits by the end of the year, but he only has to do four at a time.  They meet every day, and all homework is due the next day.  Projects are done in class.  He is thriving in the structure, and is doing quite well all on his own.  I've spoken to most of his teachers, and they are happy to let him sit in the front of the class. They don't accept late work (which was challenging for him at first, since his last school did), but he has developed much better work habits.  Though I do remind him everyday to do his homework, I don't help him with it. I don't even know what he's working on.  He gets help from his teachers after school when he needs it.  He has missed a couple of assignments, but he's seeing the consequence of that.  He's done quite well on some of his tests (though not all).  He's not getting the grades he would be if I were helping him more, but he's doing it all on his own, and he's proud of that.

 

That's the goal, isn't it?  To help our kids become independent and self motivated?   He's proud that he's doing it on his own, without meds, without Mom hovering.  He doesn't have ADD, and never did.  I know that, based on his behavior and performance, and with the "help" of his teachers and special ed. coordinator, I could have convinced a doctor that he was ADD.  But I followed my instinct (and the wishes of my dh and ds), and didn't pursue that course.  I'd seen him focus for hours at a time, so I knew he could do it.  He just had to mature a bit, and realize that his academics, though not as fun as writing a song or making a video, were vital to his success in the world.  He wasn't mature enough in 9th grade.  He is now.  Medicating him might have helped him in the classroom, but would have numbed his creativity and stifled his personality, and would have masked what was really happening.  He might have ended up being dependent on them, thinking he needed them to function, and would never have learned what he could do on his own.  

[albeto.]

I was told this by the school's special ed coordinator, and she showed me the information in writing from the school district.  I guess she and the school district were misinformed (I think not).

That's in direct violation of the law, and while school districts may have lawyers on retainer, no lawyer would defend in court an illegal and medically unethical action on part of the local government. 

 

That's the goal, isn't it?  To help our kids become independent and self motivated?   He's proud that he's doing it on his own, without meds, without Mom hovering.  He doesn't have ADD, and never did.  I know that, based on his behavior and performance, and with the "help" of his teachers and special ed. coordinator, I could have convinced a doctor that he was ADD.  But I followed my instinct (and the wishes of my dh and ds), and didn't pursue that course.  I'd seen him focus for hours at a time, so I knew he could do it.  He just had to mature a bit, and realize that his academics, though not as fun as writing a song or making a video, were vital to his success in the world.  He wasn't mature enough in 9th grade.  He is now.  Medicating him might have helped him in the classroom, but would have numbed his creativity and stifled his personality, and would have masked what was really happening.  He might have ended up being dependent on them, thinking he needed them to function, and would never have learned what he could do on his own.

I'm glad things worked out for you and your family. I'm concerned when comments like this are presented as some kind of proof for the value of ignoring professional advice and following instead one's own course of action based on nothing more than a personal desire to see success. The whole point of evaluations is to compile objective data, not instinct, not secret decoded messages in the clouds, not information revealed by reading tea-leaves, not analysis of dreams to determine if there really are specific issues. Not all evaluations are equal, not all are thorough, but they are, as a group, far more reliable than a mother's opinion based on observational behavior and anecdotal stories of people who just so happened to have had a child succeed despite not having access to outside help. "Instinct" can help inspire a mother to teach her child the organizational skills needed to become a good student, or it inspire the mother to neglect a child's needs, leaving them to find a solution that does solve the problems they learn to identify. When the problem is stress, and that solution is alcohol, drugs, or other risky behavior, the poor child gets punished and ruins important relationships on top of the neglect. For every positive, anecdotal story of "following instincts," there are more negative, anecdotal stories of neglect, self-medication for insufferable stress, and people who had to work hard just to keep out of jail or debt for too many years. But anecdotal stories are not evidence, and they are not informative. They serve to make someone feel better about the choice they've already made. They don't exist to help make an informed choice. It's irresponsible, in my opinion, to advise an educator in an education community to dismiss the opportunity to outsource to a professional a resource that could avoid suffering for a child in response to a problem that has been identified and is being ignored.

[hornblower]

Also, you can have a whole bunch of ld's without any add/adhd.

 

A dx of many ld's does not necessarily lead to any medication, but rather remediation/ot etc.

 

sometimes, it just leads to accommodation such as extra exam time, recorded lectures, using a laptop for note taking etc .

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I didn't offer advice, I only offered my experience as a different perspective.  There are other options to medication.  

 

Whether or not it is illegal for my school district to have this policy isn't relevant to my decision.  The policy was presented to me by a school administration, and I took it at face value.  I chose not to follow that course because my son didn't want to go there.  I trusted him, as I have his whole life, to find his way, and he did it.  It wasn't pure instinct or desire for things to work out.  He wanted to do it on his own, and I let him.  And he did it!  Woohoo!  Good for him!  But, why should this bring hostility on me?

 

Man, I can't figure out how this topic produces so much hostility.  It's as bad as the math wars of the early 2000's.  Yes, I know about learning disorders.  My son had several when he was younger, and we worked through them.  That's one of the main reasons we homeschooled.  But that's not the same thing as a bunch of moms automatically diagnosing a kid over the internet, and blasting his mom because she doesn't see medication as a workable solution for her son.   

 

I've got to go to a meeting, so I'll stop here for now.  I'm sure I've said something here that will spark further discussion.  I'll be back later if you want to chat some more.  

[Katy]

Medication for ADD  does not numb creativity or stifle personality.  

 

Ummmm.. while I'm totally on board with medication when warranted, it actually can make people feel less creative, and even numb. It can also cause all sorts of other side effects.

 

Of course, feeling less creative can also mean other people see you spinning in circles getting nothing done less, so it's all relative.

 

Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes extra exercise and caffeine does the trick. 

[LucyStoner]

Medication for ADD does not numb creativity or stifle personality.

While I agree, I'd add the proviso that people who actually have ADD can generally find a medication that works for them.

 

Taking some ADD meds if you don't have it or at the wrong dose can mess with your personality. But being medicated for ADD, I agree, certainly does not mean being numb, uncreative or without personality.

 

My husband's medication helps him use his creativity because he can stay focused on his idea, rather than wandering to 17 other things.

[LucyStoner]

I think this is largely a myth frankly. Or it's a lot like bipolar people who decide they don't neeeeeed their Meds and quit being compliant.

 

There are a lot of good options out there for treating ADD. Finding one with out side effects that are bothersome is distinctly possible.

ADD meds and meds for bipolar work in different ways. It is true that there are many meds for depression, manic depression and bipolar that can make people feel foggy, numb or not like themselves. ADD meds are mainly stimulants though. Totally different thing.

[hornblower]

Yes, I know about learning disorders.  My son had several when he was younger, and we worked through them.  That's one of the main reasons we homeschooled.  But that's not the same thing as a bunch of moms automatically diagnosing a kid over the internet, and blasting his mom because she doesn't see medication as a workable solution for her son.   

 

I've got to go to a meeting, so I'll stop here for now.  I'm sure I've said something here that will spark further discussion.  I'll be back later if you want to chat some more.  

 

See -  I don't understand what you said there. My dd's dx is that she has a permanent disability. That's what the psychologist had to write on the forms: It's permanent. It's disabling.

 

It's not something she can 'work through'. 

 

I would gently suggest that there is a range of learning challenges & while some children - like perhaps yours -  just need a bit of remediation/tutoring/change in curriculum & a tincture of time, others have real, permanent, differences in their brains. So perhaps you're misunderstanding the challenges other children face.

 

& I also don't understand why the second we say diagnosis, the topic of medication comes into it.  Medication is not the treatment of choice of written output disorder, or executive function, or working memory deficits for example.

 

& just because you take an assessment doesn't mean that they'll find something to label your kid with. They don't. Sometimes they say: "everything here looks fine. Maybe look at motivation or stress or peer groups if academics are an issue, because the rest is fine..... "

 

The reason it provokes emotion is that some of these posts make it sound like we took the easy way out by getting a dx &/or pursuing treatment &/or meds if that's what our kids needed. Like, if we'd just buckled down & worked harder & not put up with this labelling nonsense, these kids would be just fine.... That's how some of the posts are sounding to me....  It's different than saying: my kid had some struggles but it turned out with tutoring & some time he was fine. Honestly, that's a kid that didn't have a learning disability in the first place.