When second child is not "acing" school like first child

[Ginevra]

This is a bit of a predicament that hasn't been much of an issue in past years, but I'm not sure how to work this. It has always been clear to me in hsing that my DD is very academically capable. She's bright and good at the things valued by schools - quick learner, good memory, fact collector, strong reader and writer, good at applying logic. She is in her senior year (b&m school) and knocking it out of the park.

 

DS is having his first go at b&m school, 9th grade. He has never had good academic skills. There is a pretty strong tendency for dyslexia and ADD in the family (esp. boys). He has never been dxed with anything, but I know he has more of a struggle with language and fluid order than average. I did not want him pigeonholed as LD, but that might have been a mistake on my part; I honestly just don't know. With my nephew, I observed that he was able to improve greatly in school when his grade-school diagnoses were expunged and that stigma did not follow him to high school. So, I figured it was possibly better to not have a "disability" label hanging over his head.

 

Anyway, he is NOT acing high school so far. The first quarter ends next week. I am trying to help him pull two of his classes out of the "D" basement; one is Covenant Theology and the other is History. He has a "B" in Intermediate Algebra and Health/PE. C in the other classes. The main place he is getting "killed" in the D classes is quizzes and Tests. He is *bombing* them. So, I was helping him tonight with Covenant, because he has a test tomorrow, which is probably his last chance to pull that grade over the edge of D to C. (Not that a C makes me real pleased, but...)

 

I feel like my helping him makes him miserable. :( He knows I am an A student and he's following DD, who is an A student, too. i don't really know how to be helpful without him feeling like he "sucks" because it doesn't come easily to him. I also struggle to find the line where I need to help him stay on top of things vs. being a "hover mother" and following his classes on Edline, KWIM? Because I was looking at his on-line account, *I* saw that he has a test in Covenant tomorrow, and *I* pointed out that this is probably his last chance to swing a C; when I mentioned it, he said he thought the test was Thursday! :banghead.

 

I don't know what I need; just some BTDT, perhaps.

[myfunnybunch]

:grouphug:

 

It might help to separate the two issues you've got going on:

 

How do you address the academics? What kind of support does he need? A tutor (academic or organizational), a different class load, a study schedule or study group, a extra reminders from his teachers?

 

And, how do you support him emotionally as he struggles with something that's easy for the people around him, and help him (and everyone else) value him for his strengths?

 

Cat

 

ETA: I am not trying to be flip or obvious. I think the real issue that needs to be addressed is the academics, though the emotional/comparison issue is important. I tend to get my emotional stuff mixed in with the practical stuff, so often the first thing I'll do is tease out what separate issues I am facing. I wish I had some practical answers for you. :(

[Katy]

Well, I don't have experience with brick & mortar schools with kids, but DH had a ton of trouble at school, and a roommate of his at college got a DX and told him that he needed to get evaluated for ADHD and reading comprehension issues. Brilliant guy, just had some trouble in those areas.  Getting a good diagnosis stopped him from dropping out of college and becoming a truck driver.  Seriously, he even became a tutor in a few subjects after he figured out that he wasn't stupid or lazy.  So on that basis, diagnosis can help, although it doesn't always help in private schools.  DH's accommodations involved audiobook versions of textbooks, a private room for exams, and 50% longer for exams (although he found he didn't need longer in a distraction free environment).

 

Secondly, what is your financial situation and plans for him after high school?  Do you have cash saved for college or trade school, or do you need him to get perfect grades in order to get into a really prestigious college or into a presidential scholarship at a state university?  Does he understand the needs your family has in those areas?

 

What are his plans for later?  Can you ask him what he thinks the problem might be, or is he super sensitive about it?

 

ETA:  do you think it's just lack of study skills?  Can you show him how to cram memorization with flash cards?

[Storygirl]

If he is doing his very best and still getting D's, I'd suggest he needs to be evaluated for learning disabilities. It's not about avoiding a stigma; it's about getting him the help he needs to be successful. You can submit a request for the school to evaluate him. The process does take time, so I would also have a conference with his teachers to see if he can get extra help or accommodations in the meantime. I know you want to avoid having a label, but doing poorly for an unexplainable reason is likely to have an even greater impact on him.

[Annie G]

Our youngest two kids didn't go to school until they started at the local college. Took both of them a full semester to start getting their act together and figure out how to study for tests, organize their time, etc.     I tutor math and see the same thing with the kids I tutor- they head off to a school and struggle for a term until they figure out how it works.  Not necessarily in math, just everything.   Maybe your son needs some time to adjust to all of this and he can settle out into a B student, which would be fine since you know he's not the 'light the world on fire' academic your dd is. 

 

Also, our firstborn was a typical overachiever. The second kid knew she couldn't compete with her sister so she just didn't. She did the bare minimum to get by because that way there was no way she had to worry about comparisons.  It was awful. I felt bad that she felt so overshadowed, and she responded by making the dean's list ONCE just to show us she COULD do it.     

 

Terrible Twos are not the hardest part of parenting. 

[Jenny in Florida]

:grouphug:

 

It might help to separate the two issues you've got going on:

 

How do you address the academics? What kind of support does he need? A tutor (academic or organizational), a different class load, a study schedule or study group, a extra reminders from his teachers?

 

And, how do you support him emotionally as he struggles with something that's easy for the people around him, and help him (and everyone else) value him for his strengths?

 

Cat

 

I think Cat nailed it.

 

We have had some kind of similar issues here. I'm a life-long academic, a natural student. School came easily for me, and, although I didn't love public school, as an adult I'm endlessly fascinated by education. And, of course, my daughter is kind of famous in our small social circle for going to college super early and graduating at 16. 

 

My son, while he is at least as bright as his big sister, is not a natural academic and had no interest in following in her footsteps.

 

We started making a point as soon as we realized this could be a problem to matter-of-factly drop references into our conversations with both kids about what different people they are. I talked with my son about how funny it is that each one approaches school the same way they travel: My daughter likes to get where she's going as fast as possible, because the destination is the point of the trip. My son travels more like I do, enjoying multiple stops along the way to explore and talking about what he sees out the window and just generally making the journey part of the experience. We've talked a lot over the years about how both are perfectly valid choices; it's about each individual's personality and preferences. Both people eventually get where they are going.

 

Whenever he started making noises about feeling in any way inferior to his sister, we would remind him -- without making it a big deal -- that he is his own person, that he has strengths she does not, that he is simply taking the scenic route. 

 

So, sure, she went to college at 12, but she had no community service or work experience to speak of on her resume. He, on the other hand, had 300 hours of volunteering plus two years of assistant teaching at his dance studio to his credit.

 

She got a degree in theatre at 16, but she had far fewer productions on her performance resume than he did on his. 

 

Her degree included a minor in music/vocal performance, but she quit the local choir of which they were both members after less than three years. Meanwhile, he stayed in the choir for seven years, took on a leadership role, recorded three CDs with the group and toured with them to Washington, D.C., London and Oxford and Carnegie Hall.

 

Oh, and, of course, he is a multi-award-winning dancer, and she didn't dance at all until after graduation.

 

I hope I'm making it clear that we always tried to treat these exchanges as casually and openly as possible. The idea was to make it absolutely okay to acknowledge that different people have different strengths and different challenges and to deflect any developing feelings of inferiority by focusing on his personal strengths and accomplishments.

 

If I had any inkling that there was an actual learning issue, I would address that completely separately, as Cat suggested, getting my kid access to whatever resources I could to work on that part. 

[Plateau Mama]

My oldest is a straight A student (9th grade). Like she has 99-100+ in almost all her classes.learning is just easy for her. My middle one struggles (7th).

 

I've always told my daughter nothing less than an A is acceptable. I tell her this because she is capable. My middle I hope for A's and B's bracing for C's. So far this year he's got all A's and B's but he has worked very hard for those.

 

My middle entered school last December. I held his had while he adjusted. This year I told him my goal for him is to learn to manage his workload, which means turning things in on time, knowing when tests are and knowing when to ask for help. I told him I'm not too concerned with his grades. I told him I'd like A's and B's but as long as he was working on the other things I'm ok. The first month of school we sat down every day and went over his homework for the day and week. Now he manages it all himself. I sit with him on Monday and he tells me what he's got going on and I ask questions if he's missed something.

 

I can't expect straight A's from him. He is not my daughter. My college expectations for him are different than for her. (Like Ivy League vs state school.) They are different children with different abilities. I think he is just as smart as my daughter but it presents itself in different ways. (And before someone gets on me for expecting Ivy Leauge it's her goal, not mine. I'm trying to get her to go to a prestigious state school locally and that is her fall back if I get into nothing else school. Her dream is MIT.)

[Guest]

Secondly, what is your financial situation and plans for him after high school? Do you have cash saved for college or trade school, or do you need him to get perfect grades in order to get into a really prestigious college or into a presidential scholarship at a state university? Does he understand the needs your family has in those areas?

 

What are his plans for later? Can you ask him what he thinks the problem might be, or is he super sensitive about it?

 

ETA: do you think it's just lack of study skills? Can you show him how to cram memorization with flash cards?

No, he does not need perfect grades or scholarships; we have money for college or trade school. He was considering trying to get an appointment to USAFA, but this seems unlikely with his grades as they are. He wants to study business and wants to get a Master's. He is very entreprenurially-minded; I do think he could do well in business.

 

He does not organize information well, either on a page, or in his mind, is how it appears to me. We were talking about God's covenant with Abraham and it was like he couldn't see the big picture. He was trying to remember individual "answers" off the study sheet, but without grasping the bigger story. It's like he didn't see the motives of the people in the discussion and couldn't answer things like, "What did Abram do that indicated he doubted God's promises?"

 

If I work with him carefully, he can improve; I have seen evidence of this many times over the years. But if I leave him to his own devices, he seems unable to organize a plan of action and do things step-by-step.

[Guest]

Also, our firstborn was a typical overachiever. The second kid knew she couldn't compete with her sister so she just didn't. She did the bare minimum to get by because that way there was no way she had to worry about comparisons. It was awful. I felt bad that she felt so overshadowed, and she responded by making the dean's list ONCE just to show us she COULD do it.

I think this is definitely a factor, and probably often is between siblings. He does not attempt to "compete" on her turf; he shines in athletics and social interactions. I believe he pursues these things because she does not dominate them, whereas he doesn't try to draw or sing, because she is already well-known for being superb at those things.

[Guest]

If he is doing his very best and still getting D's, I'd suggest he needs to be evaluated for learning disabilities. It's not about avoiding a stigma; it's about getting him the help he needs to be successful. You can submit a request for the school to evaluate him. The process does take time, so I would also have a conference with his teachers to see if he can get extra help or accommodations in the meantime. I know you want to avoid having a label, but doing poorly for an unexplainable reason is likely to have an even greater impact on him.

I don't know; this has just never set well in my heart of hearts. I haven't ruled it out, but I would have to be convinced that he cannot do better no matter how I assist him. It's not that the label itself is so troubling, it's that I think labels are over-applied.

[Katy]

No, he does not need perfect grades or scholarships; we have money for college or trade school. He was considering trying to get an appointment to USAFA, but this seems unlikely with his grades as they are. He wants to study business and wants to get a Master's. He is very entreprenurially-minded; I do think he could do well in business.

 

He does not organize information well, either on a page, or in his mind, is how it appears to me. We were talking about God's covenant with Abraham and it was like he couldn't see the big picture. He was trying to remember individual "answers" off the study sheet, but without grasping the bigger story. It's like he didn't see the motives of the people in the discussion and couldn't answer things like, "What did Abram do that indicated he doubted God's promises?"

 

If I work with him carefully, he can improve; I have seen evidence of this many times over the years. But if I leave him to his own devices, he seems unable to organize a plan of action and do things step-by-step.

 

It sounds like some sort of executive function issue, possibly ADHD, or possibly some sort of social skill issue.  I'd probably ask him if he thought this is something he's having trouble grasping because he's just not used to the workload, or if he thought he had more trouble with it than most people, mention that organizing things is a skill, and would he like to be evaluated on ADHD, or would he rather just work with you individually?  If you think there's something different about the way he learns, you could mention it to him, and tell him why you hesitated to get him diagnosed before, but in a regular school a diagnosis might serve him better now.  If you think it's ADHD, a workout before school and some coffee with breakfast might go a long way towards helping him focus.

 

If it's wholly not understanding nuance and the big picture, it's possible this school is just super challenging and he's not used to that sort of analysis, which might mean he needs to talk through the things he's reading with someone else to make sure he gets all the nuance.  That could just be a matter of practice.

[Plateau Mama]

 

If I work with him carefully, he can improve; I have seen evidence of this many times over the years. But if I leave him to his own devices, he seems unable to organize a plan of action and do things step-by-step.

This is what you need to be doing. Consistently. But in addition you need to teach him how to do it. Have him look online (or planner etc) and make a plan. Then you go over the plan with him asking what about x? Y? After the list is made help him prioritize. And for us I have him add times so he can see that he can finish on time, or if he can't the most important stuff gets done first.

[mom2samlibby]

This is a bit of a predicament that hasn't been much of an issue in past years, but I'm not sure how to work this. It has always been clear to me in hsing that my DD is very academically capable. She's bright and good at the things valued by schools - quick learner, good memory, fact collector, strong reader and writer, good at applying logic. She is in her senior year (b&m school) and knocking it out of the park.

 

DS is having his first go at b&m school, 9th grade. He has never had good academic skills. There is a pretty strong tendency for dyslexia and ADD in the family (esp. boys). He has never been dxed with anything, but I know he has more of a struggle with language and fluid order than average. I did not want him pigeonholed as LD, but that might have been a mistake on my part; I honestly just don't know. With my nephew, I observed that he was able to improve greatly in school when his grade-school diagnoses were expunged and that stigma did not follow him to high school. So, I figured it was possibly better to not have a "disability" label hanging over his head.

 

Anyway, he is NOT acing high school so far. The first quarter ends next week. I am trying to help him pull two of his classes out of the "D" basement; one is Covenant Theology and the other is History. He has a "B" in Intermediate Algebra and Health/PE. C in the other classes. The main place he is getting "killed" in the D classes is quizzes and Tests. He is *bombing* them. So, I was helping him tonight with Covenant, because he has a test tomorrow, which is probably his last chance to pull that grade over the edge of D to C. (Not that a C makes me real pleased, but...)

 

I feel like my helping him makes him miserable. :( He knows I am an A student and he's following DD, who is an A student, too. i don't really know how to be helpful without him feeling like he "sucks" because it doesn't come easily to him. I also struggle to find the line where I need to help him stay on top of things vs. being a "hover mother" and following his classes on Edline, KWIM? Because I was looking at his on-line account, *I* saw that he has a test in Covenant tomorrow, and *I* pointed out that this is probably his last chance to swing a C; when I mentioned it, he said he thought the test was Thursday! :banghead.

 

I don't know what I need; just some BTDT, perhaps.

 

I *was* your daughter.  I was the straight A student.  School came easy to me, reading came easy to me.  However, I now have a dyslexic child.  For a long time, I didn't understand how school and reading could be difficult.  But, the more I have learned about dyslexia and the more I know about my son, the more he amazes me.  Reading is a struggle.  BUT, I am just amazed at the things that he knows, the things he has learned on his own, and the things he can do.  I feel stupid at times when I find out what he does know.   He's gotten involved with FIRST robotic league and I'm amazed at how he comes to life when he talks about building and programming his robot.  

 

I would encourage you to check out this site and see if your son fits some of these signs.  http://www.dys-add.com/  I attended a seminar with Susan Barton.  She spoke about the amazing things that dyslexics are known for.  The fact that their brains are 10% larger than most peoples and that most of them are known for an amazing trait just as much as their struggles (some are great athletes, others very sensitive, etc.)    Here is a list of some famous dyslexics:  http://www.thepowerofdyslexia.com/famous-dyslexics/

 

I would encourage you to reconsider testing him for dyslexia and to find out what you can do to help him succeed.  He may need extra time on tests or someone to read and dictate his tests to him.  

 

If he is doing his very best and still getting D's, I'd suggest he needs to be evaluated for learning disabilities. It's not about avoiding a stigma; it's about getting him the help he needs to be successful. You can submit a request for the school to evaluate him. The process does take time, so I would also have a conference with his teachers to see if he can get extra help or accommodations in the meantime. I know you want to avoid having a label, but doing poorly for an unexplainable reason is likely to have an even greater impact on him.

I agree with this.  

 

I don't know; this has just never set well in my heart of hearts. I haven't ruled it out, but I would have to be convinced that he cannot do better no matter how I assist him. It's not that the label itself is so troubling, it's that I think labels are over-applied.

 

I disagree.  I think you are doing him a huge disservice by not getting him tested, esp. if dyslexia runs in your family.  It is hereditary and they are saying 1 in 5 children have dyslexia.  I do agree that there are some labels that are over used, but not helping a dyslexic by not giving them the tools they need to learn, is setting them up for failure.  ADD and ADHD can run hand in hand with dyslexia.  http://www.dyslexia-add.org/issues.html   http://www.interdys.org/EWEBEDITPRO5/UPLOAD/ADHDANDDYSLEXIA.PDF

[Storygirl]

I don't know; this has just never set well in my heart of hearts. I haven't ruled it out, but I would have to be convinced that he cannot do better no matter how I assist him. It's not that the label itself is so troubling, it's that I think labels are over-applied.

 

Don't think of it as a label. Think of it as doing your best to get him the help that he needs. If he cannot succeed at his schoolwork without extensive assistance from you at this age, it's a big red flag that he may have an underlying issue.

 

Now, my brother practically flunked out of high school (less than a 2.0) but in his mid-twenties, when he had matured, he went on to get straight A's in college (he flunked out of college on his first attempt). His issue was NOT a LD but a total lack of interest in trying, compounded by a rebellious streak that refused to get good grades because he knew academics were important to his parents. In other words, he had to find a desire in himself to do well before the good grades happened. So I get it that someone can get poor grades but not have any learning disabilities.

 

Does your son want to do better? Do the poor grades bother him? Is he trying his best but floundering, or is he not giving his best effort, because it is not important to him?

 

If he is honestly giving forth his best effort and getting D's, there is likely a learning issue. If he is not trying hard and doesn't really care, there is an attitude issue. You probably know which it is. From your OP, it sounds like a learning issue to me.

 

Getting evaluations is an emotionally difficult decision. But if it helps a child succeed where they were struggling before, it is oh so worth it.

[Slartibartfast]

 I agree that it is doing him a disservice not to have those tools available. He needs to learn to manage while he is in high school, once he is in college it will be even more difficult. 

[Incognito]

Even if you hate labels, are you choosing to do the things that people with his struggles use to succeed?

 

People with a hard time reading do well with audio books, extra time, visuals/3d work (hands on)...  Does he struggle with writing?  How are his keyboarding skills and would a program that helps him find words help?  Audiobook Bible commentaries perhaps?

 

I personally think it would be really appropriate to look into what is making it so hard for your son - be it purely the adjustment to school, dyselxia, or something else.  If you are uncomfortable with it, you might still consider seeing if *he* would prefer to look into things before dropping the idea completely.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs.  I have been where you are.  Only my kids were a bit younger and they had not homeschooled at all at the time.  I waited to get my kids assessed even though I knew DD was struggling in school.  She made o.k. grades with tremendous help from me so I didn't pursue anything for a very long time.  There is a history of giftedness coupled with learning challenges on both sides of the family but EVERYONE was gun shy about labels and discussions about learning issues.  So we didn't do anything except try to help her along ourselves.  

 

As we headed into 5th grade I knew we would reach a point where there simply were not enough hours in the day for me to keep reteaching the material and she was completely dependent on me for help with when assignments were due, etc.  My mother, a public school teacher, did NOT want me to get assessments for the very reasons you have stated on this thread.  And she really regrets that now.  Getting assessments gave us answers, not labels, answers we badly needed.  Are labels used too much these days? Yes.  But what you need are not labels but solid answers as to where the disconnect is.  

 

Once I had real answers I was able to help both kids so much more efficiently.  It was a true godsend!  We had evals through the private sector so we didn't have to share with anyone if we chose not to.  If we had kept the kids in school, we wouldn't have had to tell the school if we chose not to.  It just gave us the answers we needed to actually help the kids thrive, not just limp along.  We still have ups and downs but so MANY things are better now and the evals made so much sense.  A bonus was that we found out they had a lot of strengths that were not being tapped, either, because the weaknesses were masking the strengths and vice a versa.  We were able to use those strengths to help remediate the weaknesses and knowing about those strengths gave us some great jumping off points for encouraging areas of interest that could potentially turn into great careers that fit the kids well.

 

If you know there are learning challenges in your family (many of which can be genetic) and your very bright child is struggling this much, please consider an evaluation through a neuropsychologist.  Do some research.  Find a really good one that will give you in depth answers, not a bunch of numbers or a label.  It might help you to truly help your child not just survive school but to thrive.

 

Hugs and best wishes....

[Guest]

This is what you need to be doing. Consistently. But in addition you need to teach him how to do it. Have him look online (or planner etc) and make a plan. Then you go over the plan with him asking what about x? Y? After the list is made help him prioritize. And for us I have him add times so he can see that he can finish on time, or if he can't the most important stuff gets done first.

This does make sense. This probably would help him.

 

  

Don't think of it as a label. Think of it as doing your best to get him the help that he needs. If he cannot succeed at his schoolwork without extensive assistance from you at this age, it's a big red flag that he may have an underlying issue.

 

Does your son want to do better? Do the poor grades bother him? Is he trying his best but floundering, or is he not giving his best effort, because it is not important to him?

 

If he is honestly giving forth his best effort and getting D's, there is likely a learning issue. If he is not trying hard and doesn't really care, there is an attitude issue. You probably know which it is. From your OP, it sounds like a learning issue to me.

 

Getting evaluations is an emotionally difficult decision. But if it helps a child succeed where they were struggling before, it is oh so worth it.

It definitely bothers him and it is not for lack of caring. It is consistent with what I have seen all his life while homeschooling, even before he had any awareness of "grades." He does his homework; he turns work in. His grade history is very stark - he gets 100s and 95s on those things he can control, such as homework or projects in which the grade is based on completion. He gets 40s and 60s on tests and quizzes, those things that require memorization of facts and/or analysis.

 

I was working on a vocab list with him, trying to help him remember the definitions mnemonically (because this makes it easy for me). So, for the word "arduous," is said, "Just remember it as harduous..." Or for "rectify'" I said, "That root 'rect' means 'right,' just like a rectangle has four right angles. He said, "This does not help me AT ALL." He said the way he learns the vocab best is to quickly look through the list a couple of times "super fast," memorizing a word in each definition that goes with the word. Then he demonstrated this to me and could give me the right definition to any word, in any order. So, I guess that is a strategy he can use for straight memorization, but this obviously does not work for analysis-based tests, such as the Covenant Theology.

 

* * *

 

To make this even more difficult, I talked to Dh about this, asking him if he thinks an evaluation would be helpful or not. I thought with dh having the better part of being able to relate to these struggles, his insight would be very useful. It isn't. :( He thinks "repetition" is the answer to assisting ds with his tests. He also sees the newness of adapting to b&m school as a significant factor, whereas I see it as a minor factor. I don't know...talking to dh about it made me feel more uncertain and

I'm not in a good frame of mind at the moment. :(

[OneStepAtATime]

This does make sense. This probably would help him.

 

  

It definitely bothers him and it is not for lack of caring. It is consistent with what I have seen all his life while homeschooling, even before he had any awareness of "grades." He does his homework; he turns work in. His grade history is very stark - he gets 100s and 95s on those things he can control, such as homework or projects in which the grade is based on completion. He gets 40s and 60s on tests and quizzes, those things that require memorization of facts and/or analysis.

 

I was working on a vocab list with him, trying to help him remember the definitions mnemonically (because this makes it easy for me). So, for the word "arduous," is said, "Just remember it as harduous..." Or for "rectify'" I said, "That root 'rect' means 'right,' just like a rectangle has four right angles. He said, "This does not help me AT ALL." He said the way he learns the vocab best is to quickly look through the list a couple of times "super fast," memorizing a word in each definition that goes with the word. Then he demonstrated this to me and could give me the right definition to any word, in any order. So, I guess that is a strategy he can use for straight memorization, but this obviously does not work for analysis-based tests, such as the Covenant Theology.

 

* * *

 

To make this even more difficult, I talked to Dh about this, asking him if he thinks an evaluation would be helpful or not. I thought with dh having the better part of being able to relate to these struggles, his insight would be very useful. It isn't. :( He thinks "repetition" is the answer to assisting ds with his tests. He also sees the newness of adapting to b&m school as a significant factor, whereas I see it as a minor factor. I don't know...talking to dh about it made me feel more uncertain and

I'm not in a good frame of mind at the moment. :(

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Talking to my DH netted similar results.  He was not helpful at all in that regard.  I'm sorry that you have a similar situation.  It makes things much more challenging.

[OneStepAtATime]

My suggestion at this point is to read The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide.  Just read it.  Maybe that will give you some of the answers you seek.  

[plansrme]

Could you really step in hard just until the end of the semester, perhaps, and handhold him through his classes so that he learns how to study and organize his time?  My daughter sounds a lot like your son:  no definite diagnosis, but there is definitely something there.  She also is a freshman at a b&m school for the first time this year.  After she bombed the first essay or two and a couple of tests, I stepped in to provide very specific guidance to her.  What I am finding is that it is not all that unusual--lots of freshmen have their parents helping them study.  My oldest never did, but I remember her classmates' parents talking about it.  I must have looked at them like they'd sprouted an extra head, but now I am them.  I get it.  She does not want to fail, so she sort of welcomes my intervention, and she IS making progress.  She is learning how to take tests, how to study and how to manage her time.  And that is great for me, because I do not want to do this forever.  

 

As an example of something silly that she didn't know but that has vastly improved her history grades, I noticed that in the free response, she was not actually answering the questions.  I told her, "If the question asks, 'What was the effect of XYZ,'" then your answer should begin, "The effect of XYZ was to. . .."  Instant 5-10 point improvement.  It was one of our eureka moments.  Similarly, when she had to do a presentation, she had NO IDEA what to say.  She prepared her slides, but standing up there and presenting them?  Absolutely clueless.  So she and I sat down and wrote a script together based upon her slides.  She practiced the script, condensed it to notes and did fine.  But she had no idea where to start, as no one had ever taught her that.  When she has in-class essays, I sit with her and brainstorm an outline so she has some idea of what to write when she gets in there.  When she has out-of-class essays, I help her a lot.  A whole lot.  I swear that I do more teaching now than I did when she was homeschooled, but she is improving (possibly no thanks to her actual paid teachers), and that is what I need to see.

 

[Plateau Mama]

* * *

He also sees the newness of adapting to b&m school as a significant factor, whereas I see it as a minor factor. I don't know...talking to dh about it made me feel more uncertain and

I'm not in a good frame of mind at the moment. :(

 

 

Adapting to school is a huge factor. Huge. Trust me, I was just there last year. I know my son is having to learn to study for tests. It's been difficult. Very difficult.  

My suggestion at this point is to read The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide.  Just read it.  Maybe that will give you some of the answers you seek.

 

This is the best book I've ever read for my child. It helped me see that he wasn't ADHD or autistic like people where thinking but rather he had auditory processing issues and sensory processing. Once I figured out his issues I was able to figure out where he needed help.

[Liz CA]

Perhaps a touch of ADD. You mentioned it runs in the family and boys are usually the ones who inherit it. This is not a terrible thing. He just has different executive functioning than you. You can work on organizing methods together. I'd let him decide on one that works for him.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

My kids ARE your kids.  DD, oldest child, super self-motivated, super academic, loves reading, favorite subjects: math and physics.  We homeschooled through 8th grade.  Starting in about sixth grade, she controlled her own schedule.  I'd give her the planner for the month, and she'd go through her daily routine, always getting her work in on time and beautifully presented.  Was accepted to a highly competitive independent high school, and did well there.  Is now in her freshman year in college, majoring in engineering (though she's thinking of changing to pure mathematics.  

 

Ds, 16 months younger, seemed to decide that his sister was the academic one, so he needed to find a different identity.  Though he's extremely bright, he just does things his way, in his time.  He is amazingly creative, both in visual arts and in music.  He would much rather be doing something creative than doing his school work.  Like his sister, he homeschooled through middle school, then went to a b&m high school.  

 

During 9th grade, he had a terrible time keeping track of assignments and managing his time.  His grade record in every class was half 100s, and half 0s.  He failed every test (averaged about 50%).   I helped him a lot!  His school had three six-week terms per semester.  We spent the weekend at the end of every term having a marathon homework session, getting all his stuff done so he could at least receive partial credit.  We considered having him tested for ADD, but decided against it because we decided we would not medicate him with psychotropic drugs, and that is all they do for ADD/ADHD.  Besides, he *could* focus, and he did well on the assignments he remembered to do. 

 

This year, he's a junior, and he's doing MUCH better.  I've backed off almost completely from helping him.  I nag him once everyday to ask if he's done his homework, but that's all.  He has matured so much, and he's realizing that he is going to have to make his way in the world.  He has more confidence -- doesn't want me to help, loves to tell me, "It's all done."  His grades aren't what they were when I was helping him, but they're ALL HIS.  He's proud of that.  He's at a different school that only has four classes at at time (also block scheduled, but they do a full credit each semester, going to the same classes for 1 1/2 hours every day, rather than alternating days).  Only having to keep track of four classes, and having homework every day that's due the next day -- those two things (along with being two years older) have helped him tremendously.  

 

I'm glad we didn't get him diagnosed.  In his case, it would have been detrimental.  

 

 

[mom2samlibby]

This does make sense. This probably would help him.

 

  

It definitely bothers him and it is not for lack of caring. It is consistent with what I have seen all his life while homeschooling, even before he had any awareness of "grades." He does his homework; he turns work in. His grade history is very stark - he gets 100s and 95s on those things he can control, such as homework or projects in which the grade is based on completion. He gets 40s and 60s on tests and quizzes, those things that require memorization of facts and/or analysis.

 

I was working on a vocab list with him, trying to help him remember the definitions mnemonically (because this makes it easy for me). So, for the word "arduous," is said, "Just remember it as harduous..." Or for "rectify'" I said, "That root 'rect' means 'right,' just like a rectangle has four right angles. He said, "This does not help me AT ALL." He said the way he learns the vocab best is to quickly look through the list a couple of times "super fast," memorizing a word in each definition that goes with the word. Then he demonstrated this to me and could give me the right definition to any word, in any order. So, I guess that is a strategy he can use for straight memorization, but this obviously does not work for analysis-based tests, such as the Covenant Theology.

 

* * *

 

To make this even more difficult, I talked to Dh about this, asking him if he thinks an evaluation would be helpful or not. I thought with dh having the better part of being able to relate to these struggles, his insight would be very useful. It isn't. :( He thinks "repetition" is the answer to assisting ds with his tests. He also sees the newness of adapting to b&m school as a significant factor, whereas I see it as a minor factor. I don't know...talking to dh about it made me feel more uncertain and

I'm not in a good frame of mind at the moment. :(

 

If your son is dyslexic, those tips on remembering will not work for him at all.   This book may give you some tips on helping him and understanding the way his brain works.  http://dyslexia.yale.edu/book_Overcoming.html

 

This book was another eye opener for me.  http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594630798/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_til?tag=neurolearni04-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=1594630798&adid=00CGZ2WTGDP8728K1WDE&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fdyslexicadvantage.com%2F

 

If your husband has had the same struggles in school/life, he might not be as receptive to testing your son.  It can hit home that he is that way, also or that he gave him the struggle.  Men often don't like to admit or see that their is a problem.  

 

Good luck to you and your son as your try to figure out the best way to help him.

[hornblower]

I don't have the sibling issue but I have the labelling issue & 20/20 hindsight? I wish I had taken the advice of people here years ago & gotten the testing earlier rather than later.

I too was worried about labelling & over-dx'ing but I really did not fully realize the extent to which the kids will label and diagnose themselves anyway.

And in my family, the labels were "stupid, incompetent, failure, disappointment" They gave themselves those labels and suffered with them for years.

Knowing the 'real' diagnosis would have been so much better & it would also have given us way more insight into how to tackle the weaknesses. My dd also tested as 2e - something which she & I totally didn't see. All their good things? I took for granted....

Get him tested. Find out where the problems are. Get tutoring or help in whatever area pops, and get & take any accommodations recommended. It's not about grades. It's about being able to thrive and fulfill his potential.

[unsinkable]

If I work with him carefully, he can improve; I have seen evidence of this many times over the years. But if I leave him to his own devices, he seems unable to organize a plan of action and do things step-by-step.

A few thoughts:

 

When you were homeschooling, you might have instinctively worked to his strengths and were able to teach him the way that best suited him.

 

That is not going to happen at school. Teachers have an entire class of students to teach and while they WANT to reach all their students, it sometimes isn't logistically possible to teach each one individually.

 

However, in the best of circumstances, if he has a diagnosis, he can receive accommodations that can get him closer to his full potential, the way he has been with you as his personal teacher.

[wapiti]

If you want him to reach his full potential, you are shooting in the dark unless you figure out how his brain works and how to best support his weaknesses as well as how to more fully develop his strengths - they go hand in hand.  Another vote to get evals.  Knowledge Is Power!

[unsinkable]

This does make sense. This probably would help him.

 

 

It definitely bothers him and it is not for lack of caring. It is consistent with what I have seen all his life while homeschooling, even before he had any awareness of "grades." He does his homework; he turns work in. His grade history is very stark - he gets 100s and 95s on those things he can control, such as homework or projects in which the grade is based on completion. He gets 40s and 60s on tests and quizzes, those things that require memorization of facts and/or analysis.

 

I was working on a vocab list with him, trying to help him remember the definitions mnemonically (because this makes it easy for me). So, for the word "arduous," is said, "Just remember it as harduous..." Or for "rectify'" I said, "That root 'rect' means 'right,' just like a rectangle has four right angles. He said, "This does not help me AT ALL." He said the way he learns the vocab best is to quickly look through the list a couple of times "super fast," memorizing a word in each definition that goes with the word. Then he demonstrated this to me and could give me the right definition to any word, in any order. So, I guess that is a strategy he can use for straight memorization, but this obviously does not work for analysis-based tests, such as the Covenant Theology.

 

* * *

 

To make this even more difficult, I talked to Dh about this, asking him if he thinks an evaluation would be helpful or not. I thought with dh having the better part of being able to relate to these struggles, his insight would be very useful. It isn't. :( He thinks "repetition" is the answer to assisting ds with his tests. He also sees the newness of adapting to b&m school as a significant factor, whereas I see it as a minor factor. I don't know...talking to dh about it made me feel more uncertain and

I'm not in a good frame of mind at the moment. :(

Being very good at rote memorization is a trait of a nonverbal learning disorder. (Of course, people can be good at it without having a nonverbal learning disorder.)

 

Another problem students who struggle with school issues have is that they can start to shut down and give up in frustration. So he might care now, but after a period of struggling and "failing" (whatever that means for him and your family) he might decide it's not worth it.

[Katy]

I've been thinking about this, and I don't think over labeling is a problem.  If a quarter of kids need to be taught in a different way, they need to be taught in a different way.  If schools require a label in order to teach kids the way they need to be taught, then give them whatever label they need so that your kid can be taught in a way that he can learn best.

 

I get that there can be some sort of shame involved, but an evaluation will give you a more accurate understanding of what's going on.  Perhaps he just needs a little course on study skills and academic writing, and perhaps those things were intuitive to your DD (Communication does tend to come easier for girls, for neurological reasons). Or maybe there is some sort of learning disability going on, and he just needs a little accommodation.  There are some advantages to those labels, and not just for the sake of your child learning he can be successful rather than a failure.  ADHD tends to allow for some really creative problem solving, which is amazing for certain careers (engineering, for example).  A ton of very successful people have dyslexia.

 

He's working very hard.  He clearly cares.  You clearly care.  Something is going on, and it's something you've been able to avoid because you could tailor his education to his abilities.  Now that you can't, it's not fair to take away opportunities for him due to things he can't control.  Get him an evaluation so you know what to do next.

[fairfarmhand]

How is he about reading a textbook and pulling the important points out of it?

 

I handed my dd a text in the 8th grade and she was totally lost. She had no idea how to pick out the most important parts of the text. I had to step by step show her..Look at this heading...See these bolded words ? See how they related to the heading? See how they italicize the definition of that term? All of those are important.

 

Then I had to demonstrate note taking. For my dd, outlining was a fail. but now she can at least get the important points on paper. It looks messy, but once you start analzing it, it has its own sort of logic. Arrows, underlining, boxes, and highlighting organize the material in a way that makes sense to her.

[blondeviolin]

My husband struggled with some sort of I diagnosed learning disorder. He is extremely bright. BUT, he bombs tests regularly. I'm the one who has no issue. I WISH it was taken care of while he was in high school. He is 33 and still gets extreme anxiety over tests, second and triple guesses himself, berates himself for not understanding questions, etc. It is so debilitating to him at this stage, he's not completed his bachelors, though he has more than enough credits and two associates. The thought of going to school to finish it up nearly paralyzes him. He's improved a lot in the ten years we've been married, but it's still a problem.

 

Is private testing an option? That way you'd be able to decide if you want to share/withhold whatever diagnosis might be made.

[marbel]

I don't know; this has just never set well in my heart of hearts. I haven't ruled it out, but I would have to be convinced that he cannot do better no matter how I assist him. It's not that the label itself is so troubling, it's that I think labels are over-applied.

 

But some people can only do better with tools or other helps that most people don't need. 

 

One of my kids struggles a lot.  He has never been to school but has had two neuropsychological evaluations (at age 10 and 17) for various issues.  The most recent one left us the most encouraged we have ever been with this child.  They gave us recommendations and tools to help him with his areas of struggle.  (For him, processing speed, working memory, and some executive function skills related to working memory.)

 

It was well worth it for us to have him diagnosed (or labeled if you will) and he will go to community college dual enrollment next year with his (short) list of requested accommodations.

 

He can do well with help.  Some people just need more help.

 

I am not sure about this, because my kids have never been to school, but I wonder if you could just get an evaluation privately without the school's involvement.  Then you could see what, if any, extra support your son needs.  Maybe the school would never have to be involved.  I do get you on the label thing.  But don't let that stop you from helping your child.

 

My kid walked out of that evaluation with a huge weight off his shoulders, even though the psychologist said that many things that come easier for other people will always be harder for him.  That is something he can work with.  He couldn't work with not knowing what the problems were.  He couldn't work with thinking he was just stupid.

 

(BTW his younger sister is academically much more capable than he is.  But she lacks his innate curiosity and desire to know things.  It is an interesting contrast here in my house.)

[Guest]

I really do not understand what you are saying here.  If you have to hold his hand then you are compensating for a real issue.  It seems clear.

 

I do think adjustment to school may well be a factor.  But I think this sounds to me like you are doing him a disservice due to personal bias.

 

When my homeschooling overseer suggested having him evaluated last year, she likened accommodations to eyeglasses, saying, "If your child had subpar vision, you would have no objections to getting him glasses." I don't think this is analogous. I have corrected vision. I cannot see better no matter how things are presented. I cannot see better by applying myself more or learning better management skills. This is what did not sit well with me. The specific issue she was focused on at the time was his extremely poor writing skill. She felt that a dx of dysgraphia would serve him, because then he could have accommodations, like keyboarding rather than handwriting. To me, this is like catering to his weakness, rather than requiring him to improve his skills. (This particular issue is practically moot anyway, as handwriting plays a very insignificant role in their schoolwork and he is allowed to use an iPad for notes - all the kids are.) 

 

Anyway, I have an additional difficulty now, because dh also does not want to pursue evaluation. I was considering it, but his reluctance makes me less inclined to seek evaluation. 

[Guest]

My kids ARE your kids.  DD, oldest child, super self-motivated, super academic, loves reading, favorite subjects: math and physics.  We homeschooled through 8th grade.  Starting in about sixth grade, she controlled her own schedule.  I'd give her the planner for the month, and she'd go through her daily routine, always getting her work in on time and beautifully presented.  Was accepted to a highly competitive independent high school, and did well there.  Is now in her freshman year in college, majoring in engineering (though she's thinking of changing to pure mathematics.  

 

Ds, 16 months younger, seemed to decide that his sister was the academic one, so he needed to find a different identity.  Though he's extremely bright, he just does things his way, in his time.  He is amazingly creative, both in visual arts and in music.  He would much rather be doing something creative than doing his school work.  Like his sister, he homeschooled through middle school, then went to a b&m high school.  

 

During 9th grade, he had a terrible time keeping track of assignments and managing his time.  His grade record in every class was half 100s, and half 0s.  He failed every test (averaged about 50%).   I helped him a lot!  His school had three six-week terms per semester.  We spent the weekend at the end of every term having a marathon homework session, getting all his stuff done so he could at least receive partial credit.  We considered having him tested for ADD, but decided against it because we decided we would not medicate him with psychotropic drugs, and that is all they do for ADD/ADHD.  Besides, he *could* focus, and he did well on the assignments he remembered to do. 

 

This year, he's a junior, and he's doing MUCH better.  I've backed off almost completely from helping him.  I nag him once everyday to ask if he's done his homework, but that's all.  He has matured so much, and he's realizing that he is going to have to make his way in the world.  He has more confidence -- doesn't want me to help, loves to tell me, "It's all done."  His grades aren't what they were when I was helping him, but they're ALL HIS.  He's proud of that.  He's at a different school that only has four classes at at time (also block scheduled, but they do a full credit each semester, going to the same classes for 1 1/2 hours every day, rather than alternating days).  Only having to keep track of four classes, and having homework every day that's due the next day -- those two things (along with being two years older) have helped him tremendously.  

 

I'm glad we didn't get him diagnosed.  In his case, it would have been detrimental.  

 

I really hope our story will look like this in the future. I nodded through your entire post. 

[Guest]

My husband struggled with some sort of I diagnosed learning disorder. He is extremely bright. BUT, he bombs tests regularly. I'm the one who has no issue. I WISH it was taken care of while he was in high school. He is 33 and still gets extreme anxiety over tests, second and triple guesses himself, berates himself for not understanding questions, etc. It is so debilitating to him at this stage, he's not completed his bachelors, though he has more than enough credits and two associates. The thought of going to school to finish it up nearly paralyzes him. He's improved a lot in the ten years we've been married, but it's still a problem.

 

Is private testing an option? That way you'd be able to decide if you want to share/withhold whatever diagnosis might be made.

 

This is an option and is how I would do it if I were going to. 

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

My youngest had terrible test anxiety when starting b&m high school. He has figured out that he retains information when he alternates studying with his guitar playing. 20-30 minutes of studying and 20 minutes of guitar playing, then back to studying. I wonder if you son has just not found his groove?

 

I use mnemomics to remember stuff, but it has never worked for my kid. ;-)

[mom2samlibby]

When my homeschooling overseer suggested having him evaluated last year, she likened accommodations to eyeglasses, saying, "If your child had subpar vision, you would have no objections to getting him glasses." I don't think this is analogous. I have corrected vision. I cannot see better no matter how things are presented. I cannot see better by applying myself more or learning better management skills. This is what did not sit well with me. The specific issue she was focused on at the time was his extremely poor writing skill. She felt that a dx of dysgraphia would serve him, because then he could have accommodations, like keyboarding rather than handwriting. To me, this is like catering to his weakness, rather than requiring him to improve his skills. (This particular issue is practically moot anyway, as handwriting plays a very insignificant role in their schoolwork and he is allowed to use an iPad for notes - all the kids are.) 

 

Anyway, I have an additional difficulty now, because dh also does not want to pursue evaluation. I was considering it, but his reluctance makes me less inclined to seek evaluation. 

 

This confuses me.  You say that you have corrected vision, so you have done something to help yourself improve your life.  Why would you not want to find out what tools or training could be done to help your child increase his learning at school?   You say that you won't ever see better by applying yourself, which is true, but what would happen if you spent the whole day without your contacts or glasses?  Would you be wanting to improve things then?

 

I'm not seeing what you are planning to do to improve his skills, since you are seeing everything as catering to a weakness.  I guess I see it as what CAN I do to help my child succeed.  If testing is what it takes to find out what needs to be done, then I would do it.  If it takes me reading his schoolwork to him for awhile for it to sink in, then I would do it.   What is your plan to help him succeed?  Tutor?  

 

What if you are wanting to learn a new skill, would you take a class or find someone to teach you or would you try and try and try but keep failing because you aren't understanding or learning what to do?  

 

I think a lot of times men don't want to pursue an evaluation because they think that it reflects onto them.  

[Guest]

Could you really step in hard just until the end of the semester, perhaps, and handhold him through his classes so that he learns how to study and organize his time?  My daughter sounds a lot like your son:  no definite diagnosis, but there is definitely something there.  She also is a freshman at a b&m school for the first time this year.  After she bombed the first essay or two and a couple of tests, I stepped in to provide very specific guidance to her.  What I am finding is that it is not all that unusual--lots of freshmen have their parents helping them study.  My oldest never did, but I remember her classmates' parents talking about it.  I must have looked at them like they'd sprouted an extra head, but now I am them.  I get it.  She does not want to fail, so she sort of welcomes my intervention, and she IS making progress.  She is learning how to take tests, how to study and how to manage her time.  And that is great for me, because I do not want to do this forever.  

 

As an example of something silly that she didn't know but that has vastly improved her history grades, I noticed that in the free response, she was not actually answering the questions.  I told her, "If the question asks, 'What was the effect of XYZ,'" then your answer should begin, "The effect of XYZ was to. . .."  Instant 5-10 point improvement.  It was one of our eureka moments.  Similarly, when she had to do a presentation, she had NO IDEA what to say.  She prepared her slides, but standing up there and presenting them?  Absolutely clueless.  So she and I sat down and wrote a script together based upon her slides.  She practiced the script, condensed it to notes and did fine.  But she had no idea where to start, as no one had ever taught her that.  When she has in-class essays, I sit with her and brainstorm an outline so she has some idea of what to write when she gets in there.  When she has out-of-class essays, I help her a lot.  A whole lot.  I swear that I do more teaching now than I did when she was homeschooled, but she is improving (possibly no thanks to her actual paid teachers), and that is what I need to see.

 

 

This confuses me.  You say that you have corrected vision, so you have done something to help yourself improve your life.  Why would you not want to find out what tools or training could be done to help your child increase his learning at school?   You say that you won't ever see better by applying yourself, which is true, but what would happen if you spent the whole day without your contacts or glasses?  Would you be wanting to improve things then?

 

I'm not seeing what you are planning to do to improve his skills, since you are seeing everything as catering to a weakness.  I guess I see it as what CAN I do to help my child succeed.  If testing is what it takes to find out what needs to be done, then I would do it.  If it takes me reading his schoolwork to him for awhile for it to sink in, then I would do it.   What is your plan to help him succeed?  Tutor?  

 

What if you are wanting to learn a new skill, would you take a class or find someone to teach you or would you try and try and try but keep failing because you aren't understanding or learning what to do?  

 

I think a lot of times men don't want to pursue an evaluation because they think that it reflects onto them.  

I am going to do what Plansrme suggested in the quote above. These are great helps to his skills. I do not see "everything" as catering to a weakness. I have not indicated that anywhere. I see *certain* things as catering to his weakness - "Oh, writing is hard? Well, just type everything instead. Can't spell? Just run spellcheck." 

 

I absolutely have no problem whatsoever with helping him study, helping him look at edline, to see what is coming up, to help him outline planning strategies for projects, to help him gain meaning from text if he did not get it otherwise. I have no problem looking at edline every single morning, if that is what it takes to make sure he is aware of dates, deadlines, organizing, etc. What I want to prevent is being a hover-mother who is doing and planning everything for him for the next four years - and beyond. I want to give him the skills to gradually take over this himself, as Suzanne in ABQ said her son was able to do upthread. 

 

I would have no problem whatsoever with getting an evaluation if I was certain it would be all benefit, no drawback. But I have my serious doubts about that. I always have, since he was three years old. I wish it was as simple as poor vision; slap a pair of eyeglasses on and we're done! This is not the same. There is a load of emotional hits one can take by thinking they are fundamentally *unable* to do X, Y, Z in the learning arena. Additionally, I am not convinced this is the actual case; maybe that has to do with how moderate or severe one's difficulties are and his are not severe. Conversely, to some kids, it is a huge relief to find there is some organic reason why they read so slowly, can't organize an essay, can't spell something unless/until they have seen and written it a thousand times, etc. I'm not sure there is any way of knowing in advance which reaction one's child may have, so I have (thus far) gone by hunch - my hunch has been that this will not be good for him. I could be wrong! But I don't want to be. 

 

Of course I want to help my child. I wouldn't bother to post otherwise. What I don't want to do is stick training wheels on the bike because it is hard to balance, KWIM? 

[plansrme]

I'm not sure there is any way of knowing in advance which reaction one's child may have, so I have (thus far) gone by hunch - my hunch has been that this will not be good for him. I could be wrong! But I don't want to be. 

 

 

 

This is me as well.  We had "the" ed psych doctor, the one all the cool kids use, do two or three days' worth of testing on her.  But when she started at a b&m school, I did not give them a copy.  For one thing, it does not have a definite diagnosis.  It is something along the lines of, "unspecified nonverbal," or verbal.  I've even forgotten which.  The results were fascinating but not particularly helpful, and I wanted her to learn to cope, not to be accommodated, if possible.  I know that is not always possible, but my gut was that, with her, it was.  Like you, I may be wrong, but I do know that the standard accommodations, e.g., giving her more time on tests, were not going to work for her, so I question what the school could do for her other than get their danged schedules straight and give her (us) more than one night's notice for major tests.  

[Katy]

Do you have amazon prime or netflix or something with access to old Cosby shows?  Can you go back and watch the one where Theo is struggling in college and his adviser can tell by talking to him that he is extremely bright, but there's clearly a disconnect between his effort and his grades?  She has him get evaluated and it turned out he had dyslexia, which meant he had trouble organizing thoughts into a cohesive whole. He had some simple tutoring on how to organize his notes better, how to study, etc, and it turned his whole life around.  It might seem silly, but the whole episode was based on Bill Cosby's son, who also had dyslexia. Apparently it embarrassed him that he had a PhD in education and still hadn't picked up on that his son had a problem.  He wanted to relieve the stigma and make people understand the solution can be simple.  Not as simple as putting on some glasses, but the result of a diagnosis was empowerment, not telling him he wasn't capable.

 

Your son is capable of anything he wants to do.  There is nothing wrong with getting him the tools he needs to do things easier, and if that means a little occupational therapy about how to better take notes and understand information, get it!

 

[Only me]

This does make sense. This probably would help him.

 

 

It definitely bothers him and it is not for lack of caring. It is consistent with what I have seen all his life while homeschooling, even before he had any awareness of "grades." He does his homework; he turns work in. His grade history is very stark - he gets 100s and 95s on those things he can control, such as homework or projects in which the grade is based on completion. He gets 40s and 60s on tests and quizzes, those things that require memorization of facts and/or analysis.

 

I was working on a vocab list with him, trying to help him remember the definitions mnemonicially (because this makes it easy for me). So, for the word "arduous," is said, "Just remember it as harduous..." Or for "rectify'" I said, "That root 'rect' means 'right,' just like a rectangle has four right angles. He said, "This does not help me AT ALL." He said the way he learns the vocab best is to quickly look through the list a couple of times "super fast," memorizing a word in each definition that goes with the word. Then he demonstrated this to me and could give me the right definition to any word, in any order. So, I guess that is a strategy he can use for straight memorization, but this obviously does not work for analysis-based tests, such as the Covenant (

This sounds so much like my son except my son is a junior. I really wish I had him tested sooner and I'm considering doing it now. He usually does very well in homework and projects but poor on tests and quizzes. One thing I'm noting this year and you may want to consider. Freshman and sophomore year a much larger portion of his grade was from homework. I think it was 50% homework and daily work, 40% tests and quizzes and 10% from his final. So since he had close to 100 percent on his homework/daily work grade he still got a B- in the class even though he failed or got D's on many tests. I even pointed out my concern to his teacher and counselor freshman year and considered having him retake algebra. They thought I was crazy since he was getting a B- in the class.

 

The problem is this year his whole math grade is determined by tests and quizzes. He has homework but doesn't receive a grade for it. So now he is barely holding into a C. He has algebra 2 this year which obviously builds on algebra 1. now he is lost and we won't have time for him to repeat anything.

 

I also feel bad since he only has a fair GPA and now I'm wondering if he needed extra help all along. If we decide to have him tested it will take awhile for them to implement anything so most likely it will just benefit him his senior year. I'm worried that he will have to take some remedial classes in college. His GPA right now is decent (3.2) but I still don't think he is grasping some of the material.

 

Btw, I also struggled with the fact that his older sisters are so different. Oldest had straight A's in high school and has an A/B average in college. She has to work for it but she has good study skills. My middle daughter has straight A's in college. She definitely works hard but good grades come easily ro her. Both daughters are also strong readers and are good at memorizing while my ds is not. I wish I could offer advice but I would lean toward having your son tested as it's better to do it earlier rather than later.

[katilac]

I don't know; this has just never set well in my heart of hearts. I haven't ruled it out, but I would have to be convinced that he cannot do better no matter how I assist him. It's not that the label itself is so troubling, it's that I think labels are over-applied.

 

When will you be convinced, though? You've been assisting him and working with him academically for over 9 years now. He is 75% of the way through his primary education. There isn't any time. 

 

An evaluation is just that - an evaluation, and nothing more. It doesn't require you to do a, b, or c. It gives you information that you can use as you see fit. Might they give you conclusions you don't agree with? They might, and you can disagree with them and still make use of some of the information. Might they tell you nothing is wrong at all? They might, it's possible, but that's no different than getting expensive medical tests done because certain factors indicate there may be a serious problem. There may not be, but you have to get the tests done just in case. 

 

I vote 1,000 times for an evaluation. 

[myfunnybunch]

An evaluation is just information.

 

Most importantly, an evaluation can give you some idea whether accommodations for your son would be akin to training wheels, unnecessary and possibly limiting independence; or to eyeglasses, necessary in order to "see" successfully; or (to stretch the eyeglasses analogy a bit) to vision therapy, a short-term intervention with the goal of training the eyes to function properly and independently.

 

The eyeglasses thing keeps sticking with me. Can you imagine being deprived of your glasses out of concern that you might become dependent on them? Of course you're dependent on them. You need them to see! Well, I do, anyway. I would be unable to function without mine. Really and truly, my life would be incredibly limited, as I would be functionally blind.

 

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about evaluation and labels, btw. But I do believe that more information in this instance could be immensely helpful in deciding what kinds of strategies would be most useful.

 

Cat
 

[Plateau Mama]

When my son got his hearing aids his teacher used the eyeglass analogy to explain to the kinder class. It is a great analogy. Yes I can give my son hearing aids and it fixes his problem (not really but for simplicity sake go with it). He could get by w/o them but he would have a harder time because he would miss subtle things, he would get overwhelmed because he can't figure out what to filter. By giving him the hearing aids I have given him a tool to help himself.

 

If you don't know what exactly your sons issues are you can't give him the correct tools to help him. Again read the mislabeled child. You may gain enough information there to be able to start helping him more effectively (I did). Tools used to help for ADD may actually make things harder for a child with Auditory Processing. (just one example) It is important to know what issue you are trying to solve.

 

It will also help you to know where to start if you do eventually test. Some things I tested for others I didn't because I knew w/o a doubt were an issues. I tested privately, and I only share the results when they are needed to help him.

[freesia]

I agree with the posters who suggested getting him tested. We did some with my third child and it surprised me a bit. It gave me information about his processing speed that ended up being hugely helpful in how I helped and taught him. It was not something I was expecting. He is mildly dyslexic and dysgraphic, but I knew that and had accommodated for it. This piece changed the way I viewed some of the things he was doing. It was a great help.

 

Dyslexia runs strong genetically. I've seen statistics that say that 50% of children of dyslexics are dyslexic. Looking at my maternal family this has rung true, but my Mom and I can even find certain dyslexic traits in most of the family members. My cousin who is the most severely dyslexic was able to complete school through a master is physical therapy. She had accommodations, but far from just catering to her weaknesses, they allowed her to become educated without feeling stupid (as my grandfather and uncle had felt). She is an awesome PT and the accommodations she had don't hold her back. She would not be an awesome editor, however. She knows her limitations.

[Storygirl]

 we decided we would not medicate him with psychotropic drugs, and that is all they do for ADD/ADHD.  

 

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. There are many non-med things that families can do at home to help with ADHD, and there are also accommodations that the school can make that do not include medication. My son's list of recommended accommodations includes things such as

* OT for dysgraphia

* Sit near the front of the room and close to the teacher

* Additional time to complete tests and assignments

* Taking tests away from the rest of the class, without time constraints

* Be given written assignments well in advance of due dates

* Being tested orally instead of having a written test

 

That is only part of what they suggested for school. We also received extensive suggestions for things we can do at home to help with homework or homeschool work.

 

Training in calming techniques, biofeedback, help with executive function, perhaps occupational therapy....I could go on and on listing things that one can do to help ADHD that do not require meds.

 

 

[wapiti]

One more potential advantage of testing I'm not sure was mentioned above:  under certain circumstances, accommodations on the SAT and/or ACT might be available.  For kids in those circumstances, the accommodations can bring significant improvement in scores.  (FWIW, I know someone who had this happen.  The person ended up with a masters in mechanical engineering from Mines.)  College admissions can be a real hurdle in the journey to meeting potential, and obviously higher test scores can help.

 

 

[Trish]

I don't know if you're saying he's ALSO having an organizational problem, but to focus solely on that seems to miss the point. From your description it seems there is more going on here. If an evaluation gets him the tools he needs to become a more successful student (and you can't know that unless you at least attempt it), then it would seem to be worth it.

 

Why wait until college is at risk? There's a lot more in your control now, and there won't be the added distractions that college brings.

 

I'm not seeing any negative in an evaluation!

[Storygirl]

One more potential advantage of testing I'm not sure was mentioned above:  under certain circumstances, accommodations on the SAT and/or ACT might be available.  For kids in those circumstances, the accommodations can bring significant improvement in scores.  (FWIW, I know someone who had this happen.  The person ended up with a masters in mechanical engineering from Mines.)  College admissions can be a real hurdle in the journey to meeting potential, and obviously higher test scores can help.

:iagree:  In fact, I originally mentioned this in my last post, but due to a funky internet connection, I had to retype my response several times and ended up leaving this point out. From what I understand, you have to have a recorded history of accommodations in order to get accommodations approved for the standardized testing, so there is one good reason to move forward with evaluations sooner rather than later. Quill, since your son is specifically having trouble with testing, this may be something to really consider.